A (5:30)

Wow, that's a really good time.

B (5:32)

And that was it. We were in. And it was, you know, we were so naive. We had no idea what we were doing. I mean, even to the point where, like, I wouldn't have a clue where to get a barcode from. Is there a barcode shop where you go and buy them? How does it work? What's the deal? And eventually you just have to go and ask questions and just find all this information out by yourself. Because when you're founding something, you have to literally do everything. You can't rely on anyone to do anything because there's no one around you. So that was it. That was the. That was the launch. And then from there it was just Sprinting so fast to get to, you know, 12 years later to then doing an exit.

A (6:05)

Amazing. It's interesting about Neat State because you're absolutely right about the energy thing. I was in Japan, I was. Worked for Suntory for a short amount of time and they've got this incredible brand called Boss Iced coffee.

B (6:16)

Yeah.

A (6:17)

And it's bigger than Coke.

B (6:18)

Yeah.

A (6:18)

And I was blown away. And I met the. Well, the founder, the person who invented Boss within Suntory, that still manages it. I think It's a. It's 7 or 8 billion turnover. It's everywhere. Double.

B (6:30)

Yeah.

A (6:30)

And it's in so many varieties. They also do hot version on, like, you go to the chiller cabinet and then there's a hot heater cabinet as well. So you can choose.

B (6:38)

We were looking at Hot Dog and Jimmy's. You have like a little oven.

A (6:40)

Yeah.

B (6:40)

It's like you can just take. Take the. Take the hot cans out. I think it'd be great here in, like, petrol station format for people who are just a little bit too, like, in a hurry to go and to go. Rather than waiting for a hot coffee, you just bang it out of. Bang it out of the oven.

A (6:54)

But you're right about your insight, because I remember the moment a penny dropped me when I was interviewing him about, you know, the success. Because we were thinking about launching it in the uk.

B (7:02)

He said, I remember that.

A (7:03)

Yeah, you remember.

B (7:04)

Yes, I remember him talking about that. Yeah.

A (7:06)

It was like, this is Red Bull for grownups.

B (7:09)

Yeah.

A (7:09)

Oh, yeah. Because, like, you know, because Red Bull's got a very kind of narrow, kind of quite a young, kind of urban target audience. But actually, like, everyone needs energy. In fact, the older you get, the more energy you need.

B (7:18)

Yeah.

A (7:19)

So I'm like, this makes complete sense as Energy State. But you're right about the UK at the time, because I think the only couple of brands I remember were looking at the category. Starbucks had this weird, like, paper cup with a lid and a foil and a straw. The most complicated.

B (7:32)

Over my mouth. This is the stuff we used to pitch to supermarkets with.

A (7:36)

It's like.

B (7:37)

It was called Starbucks Discoveries. And you're like, what are we discovering here? And I don't really understand. And you're right, it's a cup with a wraparound plastic thing and then you got your plastic lid and then you've got a telescopic straw which is made of two bits of plastic. And the thing when you could just go, drink. Infinitely recyclable. Like, come on, like, what do you. But obviously they want to Replicate the cup that you get in the coffee shop and etc. Etc. But it's a bit of a faff. And then the other brand me cafe latte, I mean they've, they're just, they've been in our crosshairs forever and whenever I see them, I still give them that like, evil Kelly's eye. I mean, lovely people, but I'm just not a fan of, you know, I just found it just a bit mediocre and a bit like, you could try harder here. And that's why I've never picked it up before because I've never seen it, you know, I've never, I've never been attracted to it. Nothing shouted out of me from the shelf. And also actually going to coffee shops, doing, doing research to find out how big the iced coffee market was. I remember going into like a Costa and a Starbucks cafe and I'm saying, you know, how's your iced coffee doing? And they said, do you know what? And it was the year that I was actually talking to them, they said, we're going to leave our iced coffee menu boards up for the first time ever this winter. Which made me really think, you know, your point about tea, you know, getting people to go, you know, we're a tea hot tea drinking nation to then drinking an iced coffee from a cafe where you put it in your hand and it's cold, you know that, that's a huge shift. Right. And them saying that was like, like a big thing because we weren't going to go and spend a million pounds on Kantar data with a hundred page slide presentation that I haven't got a clue about. You just got to go and ask some questions and that was enough data for us to go. This, this is definitely moving. This is not going down. This is only going up.

A (9:17)

Totally agree.

B (9:17)

Yeah.

A (9:18)

Funnily enough, actually that I had exactly the same experience. I was going into Costa or Starbucks. Seeing people have an iced tea in the summer with no, like, you know, just as normal, but you couldn't buy it in the shop around the corner. And I'm like, well, why are people happy to buy it in a cafe? Yeah, of course they're going to buy it, you know, but, but just the buyers, like most head offices are, you know, you're never going to sell iced tea. Well, you probably walk out your office, go around the corner and get an iced tea and Costa, quite exactly that.

B (9:43)

Yeah.

A (9:43)

So just follow your own behavior. Yeah, yeah. You casually mentioned going from, you know, we got the idea four months later in Selfridges, Right. How did you go about kind of designing the brand and coming up with the concept and selling it in? Because, you know, it's quite impressive, you know, to turn it around quite that quickly.

B (9:58)

I took a couple of nods from the Farmers Union design in terms of its simplicity and just its on pack. Just communication. Just saying iced coffee, you're like, okay, well you're. At least you're just telling me what it is. You see so many products on the shelf that don't actually tell you what it is and you've already just missed the purchase, especially if you're a first time try and buyer. So I was like, right, we just need the brand name. We need to tell them what the product is and which variant that it is. And we only had one at the time which was original, which is, you know, the be all and end all. It's the best one, my favorite one. Forever until I die. We changed the name from Kingdom to Jimmy's because Kingdom was already taken, it was king. There was a company called Kingdom Coffee and we want to be called Kingdom Ice Coffee. And I didn't want to go down some trademarking, you know, legal thing and actually Kingdom Coffee with a supplier of our actual coffee to go into the iced coffee in the. In the in in the first place. So Jimmy's came about because of, it was like an ode to Oz really because they put an E or an O on the end of everything. So, you know, you turn up to us and like, hi, I'm Jim. They're like, Jimmy. And you're like, no, it's Jim, Jimmy. And you're like, okay, fine. It's got a nice ring to it. So I was like, right, let's just call it Jimmy's Iced Coffee. Call it originally. Then make the color palette just really, really simple and know that if you want to replicate it into other formats, you just change one particular part of it. So it'd be the crown and the bottom kind of thing that gets changed. And then we did one other rebrand which was done by Nick and James at hq, which you know, was just so much better than the original one because it just ultimately just made it cleaner and cleaner and cleaner. And you end up having a bigger kind of two tone space rather than just a smaller blue bit at the bottom, which when you're talking about shelves and you have shelf edge labels, sometimes you can't see it. And it's just about making the path of least resistance for everyone and then going on to, in terms of the packaging I really like the Farmers Union packaging because it was, it was like a carton. You had to peel back the cardboard and then drink. And I love the nostalgia and the aesthetic of that, like cardboard on your lips and holding this box just felt like being a kid again. Which is all part of this whole theater of drinking products. So going into that, plus that branding on the top was the most important part. And then obviously it has to taste great. So those, those three things, I used to go on about it at work all the time, which is branding, packaging and ingredients. If you didn't have those together, all miraculously dancing in this wonderful magician style thing, you haven't got a product. And that's how we, how we got it got it on.

A (12:22)

Now talking about packaging, I'm a huge fan of packaging and I've been on the entire journey with you. So I was a subscriber so I used to get the Tetras then switched over to Slim Can. Yeah. And then I call it the Cottle. But I think I'm a bit. Yeah, Cottle's original name for this. Like the Can Bottle combo.

B (12:37)

Yeah.

A (12:37)

Which if anyone's not watching this and listening, it's like a combination between a can and a bottle.

B (12:43)

Yeah.

A (12:43)

It's the coolest thing.

B (12:44)

Yeah.

A (12:44)

And I discovered this in Japan. I'm like, this is so frigging cool. Like why doesn't it exist in the uk?

B (12:49)

Yeah.

A (12:50)

How hard was it to get. Get that off the ground? Because that's. I don't know where you'd go and manufacture it for a start.

B (12:54)

So we, we actually call it Bottle Can. We've never called. I've only actually heard of it being called Cottle when you first emailed podcast. So we just call it Bottle Can. But that whole thing about branding packaging, ingredients. The first carton was insane. And it was only, it was like a fresh product. So it only had 60 day shelf life, had to be refrigerated. So we had quite a lot of wastage and our BP buyer said, you're not going to be listed in that because it doesn't fit in the cup holder of a car. This box shaped one because it needs to be fairly cylindrical. So then Tetrapat come and knock on our door and they say, hey, what do you think of the 330dreampack Prisma thing? And we're just like, can you just talk to me in English please? And they gave us this thing and it gave us like nine months shelf life. It was ambient stable, fitted in the cup holder and was the best thing of a relatively bad bunch for the time. And then Luke, who was MD at Jimmy's before he left, he was also operations director and he went to Hong Kong for a jolly and brought back a bottle can like the one that we're in, but it had Costa branding on it. And his desk was covered in different products and vessels and bits and pieces because he just loved that kind of thing. I remember just walking past his desk one day to go to the kitchen and I was like, dude, what is that? He said, I just picked it up in Hong Kong. I was like, mate, give it to me now. And I went and washed it out, poured a Jimmy's into it, put it in our fridge and then just walked downstairs, came upstairs pretending I was just like in the street, opened up this fridge, just reenacting kind of like a consumer's life and picked this thing up, opened it and it didn't do the cracks, it was already kind of unsealed. But the cracking part is a really nice sound when you tear it open and then just drank. And it's like, it's 38 mil diameter on this top, so it just free pours into your mouth. Whereas the Tetra pack was like this,

A (14:38)

like, it's just annoying, it's just, it can't get it in quick.

B (14:43)

And this, I, I basically just drunk this and was like, this is it. And we were kind of struggling at that point in Tetra pack because every new Tom, Dick and Harry that was coming into the, into the beverage market was using Tetra pack as they're like, go to first vessel and it just became a bit like, meh and it was just a bit flimsy. So I said, Luke, this is like, A, this is going to save us and B, is going to make us. And we all just collectively agreed we're going to do this. And yes, it cost us more to produce. But Luke then went on a three year, basically a mission to bring it to market. So trying to knock on a Japanese door to them for them to do business in the UK is notoriously difficult, which is essentially why we're still the only ones doing it, because we've spoken to other brands and they've gone, how did you do it? It's like, well, I know I was

A (15:29)

one of those brands, I'm like, I was looking at this for a couple of years, it's not easy to do.

B (15:33)

And that's the reason. And a load of these brands we've spoken to, they said, oh, we would have loved to have done it, but it was just too hard and you're like, well, there.

A (15:39)

That's why you should do it.

B (15:40)

Yeah, there you go. If you just work your ass off and you know it's going to be great, then it's fine. And I remember some of our investors were just, they were kind of going, it's really expensive. It's never been done before. How do you know it's going to work? And I just said, because I just know. As soon as I saw it, I was like, that's the one. And then when you put the brand on it, and especially because it's sprayed over there, it's not. There's no plastic wrap, it's actually printed directly onto the bottle. We actually got to go and see it being manufactured in Japan, which was just incredible. And then seeing it all being done, then filled and you're like, okay, this is the winning combo. Branding, packaging, ingredients. And for example, we were listed in M and S and you can't do price promotions in M and S. The only thing that's going to affect your rate of sale is sunshine or rain. And we changed out the Tetra pack into the bottle can during, I think, let's say a season where the weather, where the weather was just consistent. And we pretty much like doubled our rate of sale in the course of about a month once it had actually been flushed through and put all into those stores. And it was just because it was another one of those things. First customer coming along going, that looks cool. I'm going to take it off the shelf. Bang. You've already won the first argument. And then hopefully they put it in their trolley and bugger off and go and drink it and tell other people about it. Yeah, yeah.

A (16:50)

Well, I think the thing it does, it's a very cool format and once you've drunk like that, I'm not going back. But the other thing is, you know, it's a space racing store, isn't it? It's like whoever owns the biggest bit of space gets the highest sales. And what you've done is you've just literally grown your shelf space because with a slim can, they look amazing, but they're quite slim, aren't they? So, yeah, you can get a bit lost in the corner this. It's quite wide. So.

B (17:11)

Yeah. And also now they've done the Big Boy as well, which I think is 380mil. Yeah, you know, that's like a. That's a decent sized serving. And when everyone's looking at the meal deal and they always go for the most expensive drink because they feel like they're getting the biggest deal. You are getting the biggest deal out of that, which is awesome. And I, you know, the 275 is fantastic, but I typically have two of those in one sitting because I just. I'm thirsty. But the 380 Bang, that's enough for me. It's fantastic.

A (17:34)

You know, I. I've upgraded to that one as well.

B (17:35)

Yeah.

A (17:38)

Okay. For everyone watching the video, this, ladies and gentlemen, here is what I'm talking about. Well, I call it the Cottle. I don't know why Jim has created me. It's called the bottle can. This is what it looks like. It is frigging the coolest thing ever. I mean, look how beautiful this is. And also, it, like, feels cold, which is good. And as Jim was talking about there, that, ladies and gentlemen, is a 38 mil closure, which is called. Which is in the industry is known as gluggable. You have to try it to believe it. Basically, you'll drink it twice as fast, which, as Jim was just saying, means you buy two. So it's great for right of sale. So, top tip, by the way, this is very hard to do. So don't try this at home. There's only about how many places in the world would manufacture this, As a

B (18:17)

few in Japan, I think probably there's the U.S. do it now. But, yeah, it's a handful. It's not many.

A (18:23)

Yeah, this is quite hard to do.

B (18:24)

Yeah.

A (18:25)

I mean, in fact, Scott Galloway says strategy is finding the hardest thing to do that your competitors can't replicate.

B (18:29)

Yeah.

A (18:30)

And that's exactly what you've done here, isn't it? And then also Jimmy's Iced Coffee. This is the big boy here. 3,380mil, isn't it?

B (18:37)

Yeah.

A (18:37)

Because also 375. Or have I.

B (18:39)

That's 275. That's 380.

A (18:41)

That's a 380 there as well. So even better. Amazing for shelf space as well, so you can't miss the brand.

B (18:46)

And you know what I love about the Japanese is they're so passionate about everything. They gave us a big presentation about why they love bottle can. And they said due to the shape, it stays colder for longer than a standard can. And I think that what they've done is they just worked out maybe like an air vortex where the heat rises, but it comes back into the can or whatever they've done in order to test it. They were like, it just stays colder for longer. And if you want a cold product Then this needs to be in that. And it might only be colder for longer, for 30 seconds, but that's a big tick in their box. I just. That kind of attitude was just like, oh, my God, this is so refreshing. They're so on it, actually.

A (19:21)

I mean, a couple places, if I was innovating, I'd go either to America, where there's lots of trendy, unusual ingredient LED brands that pop up of, you know, nowhere, or in terms of format innovation, Japan's amazing.

B (19:32)

Oh, it's incredible.

A (19:33)

Like, so they take this, they take the bottle can. I'll get it right. The bottle can idea. And as we talking about earlier, then they'll suddenly go, we'll heat it to 56 degrees and we'll put it in this. The perfect temperature to drink and not burn your hands, which I discovered there's quite a narrow range of heating options. Not too hot, so it burns your hand, not too cold, so it's no longer hot when you drink it. It's amazing. They've thought all this kind of stuff through.

B (19:55)

So good.

A (19:55)

They are amazing at details.

B (19:57)

So just back onto the distribution stuff, you know, first of all, you go in like, Selfridges was literally just calling HQ and saying, my name's Jim, I used to be a mermaid on stage. I went to Australia, I found amazing iced coffee. I've come home, I've made my own. How do I get into Selfridges? And she just put me through to this lovely lady called Elizabeth and she said, can you come in this week and discuss it? And I was like, yeah, that sounds great. So I went and made up a presentation. We drove our Suzuki Wagon R up there and met them. And she just said, when do you want to. When do you want to launch? And I was like, you joking? You see? You actually want to do this? And she was like, yeah, I think it's great. And I was like, just four months ago, I was literally just digging holes. And now Selfridges have said yes to us putting product into their store and my head just exploded. And that was the point where we didn't have a barcode, we had nothing. So we had to get to work pretty quickly to bring it properly to market. And then when we sold one on the first day, it was the most exciting thing in the entire world. So Selfridges is the one big kind of Pinnacle store you want to get into. And then the next layer down is your Whole Foods. So Whole Foods, I remember driving into their delivery bay again in our piece of shit car, this Suzuki Wagon R. And there's a guy spraying, like, lettuce off the back deck of this delivery bay. And he's like, you're right. And I was like, yeah, where's the reception to the office? And he's like, it's upstairs, fourth floor. So I went up there and I said at the receptionist, she's like, who are you? I was like, my name's Jim Cregan. I started giving the story. She's like, hang on, hang on, hang on. What are you here for? And I was like, I just want to. I want to speak to someone about selling my product. And she's like, do you have a meeting? I was like, no, so you can't just barge your way in here. And I was like, well, I'm here now, so is there anyone here? She was like, hang on a second. And I heard this, like, stomping footprints coming down this hallway. And I was like, oh, my God. I actually think I'm in trouble. And this lady came up to me and she's like, hi, what's your name? I was like, my name's Jim. She said, what are you doing here? I was like, I've. I founded a nice coffee company. I found it in Australia, and I've. I've made it, and I think it'd be great in Whole Foods. And she was like, do you have any experience in food and drink? I was like, well, I eat food and I drink drinks. And she was like, oh, my God, you are really bad. And she. I had it. I just had it in a box, these samples. And I lifted one out and her eyes just went. And she was like, can I just see that a sec? And she said, I'm actually in the middle of a buyer's meeting, so I need to be really, really quick. She took it out and she went, we've been looking for something like this. And I was like, bang. I'll leave you now. This is my name. I had, like, little business cards. This is my name and number, and left. And then we got a. Got a listing with those guys. And then it was that point, then you got to go and find a wholesaler to actually do those deliveries for you. So my sister and I were getting up from Christchurch in Dorset, from our house, driving to Shepton Mallet to pick up stock at, like, 3 in the morning. And then driving to central London and doing our deliveries to the likes of Selfridges, Whole Foods, Melrose and Morgan. All these wonderful delis and bits and pieces. And then we're just like, God, we just can't do this anymore. So you take that rate of sale data and all the deliveries you're doing to a wholesaler and they're like, oh, you've got a customer list already. You've made our life quite easy. And then you realize they've got another 300 stores they deliver into. So I used to go up again to London and jump in the delivery vans and go with the driver to these stores. So while they're wheeling their sack truck out with all of their other stuff, you run in, hassle the manager, try and get a transfer order to sell the product over and then you get a listing in that store and then so you build up that kind of hoorah stuff and then you go after the Waitrose and then all the, all the other ones after that. So it was just. Yeah, a full on mission.

A (23:25)

I love that. I think a lot of people don't realize how, how you can basically kind of almost create a micro market in London, can't you? Like with the wholesalers, independent cafes and delis and the little, little shops. And I remember like when I did see brands at Britvic launching Liptonized tea and Purdies and a few others, I did the same thing. We had a little van sales team or the team would go out every morning. We go in and put the, get the stock on shelf, put, you know, put the, yeah, put the point of sale up and then wait and watch.

B (23:50)

Is anyone gonna buy this?

A (23:52)

I was telling you earlier like a funny story, I was trying to get into Tesco and you can get like a regional listing in Tesco where like a, a particular part of it will buy but you still have to go into store and convince them to do it. And I went into like Tesco Metro, the, the highest turnover store in the country, made friends with the people that work there and said, tell you what, I'll come in just before lunch, I'll get the stock out the back, I'll put it on shelf for you. And that. They thought this was amazing. And they're like, oh, you're doing our job for us.

B (24:17)

Yeah, perfect.

A (24:17)

They even let us on the computers putting like the stock orders through and stuff like this. And then they have this like calculation.

B (24:22)

Six more cases.

A (24:23)

Yeah, it's like, you know, how many facings and how deep are the facings and how much stock do you need, you know, each day so you can manipulate all this kind of stuff so all this kind of thing is happening. And then I said, tell you what, just to make sure this sells. I used to stand at lunchtime. And I called myself a soft drink advisor. And I go, can I help you choose a soft drink, sir? Go around to people and go, can I recommend a nice tea with that prawn sandwich?

B (24:46)

It's kind of like that, you know, what's that guy's name who wears the. Who wears the robe? And he stands outside stores. He's like, madam, your hair looks absolutely ravishing today. You look fantastic. It's kind of like doing that with your drink. What would you like fancy to drink along with your prawn salad today, sir? That's so good.

A (25:00)

I go back and I'd print off the data from that day and go, oh, look, Liptonice tea has just done 25 units, which matches Coke's rate of sale.

B (25:08)

We outsell Coke in England in one store. Don't tell anyone, but this is.

A (25:12)

This is the kind of hustle that I think people don't realize. You have to go, oh, man.

B (25:15)

We had a call from our Waitrose buyer, and she said, look, you're in little Waitrose stores and you're in mainstate stores, but the little Waitrose stores aren't performing very well. So what are you going to do about it? Boop. I ring my friend Charlie Cosby, who works at Farrow and Bull, and she just loves making stuff. She's super crafty. And she made me a carton costume out of table underlay that was the outer. And then she'd stitch the whole logo into this thing. And with a cane, like a bamboo cane kind of frame that sat on my shoulders, and it, like, was the most uncomfortable thing to wear. I hadn't a clue how vouchers worked at the time. So I would stand outside these stores around, you know, mid morning to lunchtime. I just give up my business card and I'd go, hi, my name's Jim. We've just recently launched in the store, take one of my business cards. And they're like, does this give me any money off? I'm like, no, I haven't figured that out yet. But my number's on there. Don't call me. And people just be like, you know, good on you. I'm going to go and give it a go. And some people come out and just show me, like, oh, I bought two for you. And you're just like, brilliant. After a month of doing that, the buyer rang me and goes, what did you do? I was like, what do you mean, what did I do? Is it good? And she's like, really good. Well done. Keep it up. I'm like, oh, my God, yes. So it's, it is just. It's about just being a bit ballsy and being very realistic and commonsensical in your approach to just convince someone to go and do something. It's amazing how many people just get lost in this, like hiding behind a computer and running ads and all these things, which is good in some industries and stuff, but just going and talking to people and just being very truthful about what you're doing. You know, I'm standing here in my underlay riddled costume saying, just to let you know we exist in this store and they go, cool, get you, that's absolutely fine. But you look down that road and having to do that thousands and thousands of times can be quite.

A (26:59)

Well, that's my next question. Because you've got a listing in Tesco, which is huge. I mean. Yeah, like, for anyone who doesn't know how. I mean, Tesco is about a third of all soft drink sales in the UK go through one store. Pretty much one buyer.

B (27:10)

Yeah.

A (27:11)

How did the Tesco listing come about?

B (27:13)

We had five separate meetings with five separate buyers to get into Tesco and they all promised the world and under delivered, under delivered everything until I was on a panel at a soft drinks conference and it was almost like a Dragon's Den thing. Me and two other brands had to kind of pitch. And David Beardmore, who was the impulse category director for Tesco, was there and finished my talk. And at the end he came up to me and said, hi, I'm, my name's Beardo, big, big shot at Tesco. And I was like, yeah, I know you. And he said, why haven't you pitched to Tesco yet? And I said, we have. And he's like, what? I said, yeah, we've been five times. And he was like, I'm really sorry. I'm really, really sorry. That definitely shouldn't have happened. He said, we found you in Whole Foods and this is the whole point about building up from these places because they go to those shops for inspiration, right? And he's like, we've seen you. I'm really sorry, I'm going to deal with you directly. And that's how we. We got in the door. And Beardo messaged me the other day and he said, I was at a conference chatting about suppliers and things, and he said, I brought Jimmy's up because you were the one company that we worked with that treated us like your actual customers. So you take customers on a journey for your product, but suppliers or Your, you know, your clients, like your actual supermarkets is very much transactional and you don't really let them in. And he's like, Jimmy's used to invite us down and they'd take us for lunch and we'd go paddling in the sea and we'd be very much involved in their thing. Like kind of how Fever Tree take them on gin and tonic safaris around London. It was actually like, just come and play with us for a little bit, just so you can feel what we're doing. And he really bought into our brand and he said, you did so well at that and it helped us really understand how passionate you were about making this product work and making the business work. So that's, it's, that kind of thing was just amazing for helping our relationship grow with him.

A (28:57)

As you give me a thought, I should probably talk to him on the podcast about how you convince a buyer to, you know, how you grow a relationship with Tesco. I think I'd be really interesting if more owners of brands and marketers understood how a buyer thinks.

B (29:09)

Yeah, I think it is about like, you just have to be really, you just have to be yourself. And I remember we'd go to Tesco HQ and we'd literally just be in like casual clothes and everyone else is there in their suits and they're like lovely leather bound laptop cases and we're just. I remember going to meet one of the first meetings with Tesco and I didn't have a laptop, I had nothing. And I just said, I just want to talk and understand what we'd need to be in order to be listed with you. So it wasn't like, here's my waterfall chart. We tried that. Someone had made us a deck when we presented a Waitrose and I got halfway through and I was like, so with this waterfall chart. And my buyer just said, shut your laptop. I was like, oh God. And shut the laptop. And she said, who made that presentation for you? Because you didn't do it, did you? And I was like, no. And she's like, can we just talk like normal human beings? I was like, I'd love to. Is that okay? Because you think you need to be this type of person, but you don't. It's really quite simple. You're, you're creating something, you sell it to someone and they sell it on. Yeah, there's a lot of work that goes into it, but you can have a very human relationship and I think buyers probably crave that. So it's not so transactional. All the time they'd be like, okay, that supplier is coming in. Quite looking forward to seeing them because we can actually talk about, you know, a shared relationship or a shared love for something else other than just rate of sale promotions. Gondola ends, you know, where they just fall asleep 24 7.

A (30:25)

All right, all right. Sorry to interrupt this conversation. I promise you it's for a good cause. So I've just put a rather large deposit down on a very big venue in central London called the Outernet that can hold 400 people. It's an amazing venue. Now we're going to be doing the very first uncensored cmo, the Calling. Now what is the Calling? The Calling is your opportunity to join us live and be inspired by the world's best founders, the most inspirational CMOs and the best thought leaders. This is one day that will completely transform your career. I promise it will be well worth it. I'm so excited to be doing this and if you want to find out more details, please go to the show Notes and check it out. And I really look forward to seeing you there. It's on the 21st of April. Do not miss it. Now back to the show. Now, one unusual thing you did distribution wise as well, and I know this because I'm a subscriber for, I've been so for many years, is you went direct to consumer as well, didn't you?

B (31:24)

Yes, we did. Yeah.

A (31:25)

I haven't seen many because the logic of, you know, high cost to deliver, low price. Yeah, you know, the economics would seem surprising, but how did you make direct to consumer work? Was it a planned thing?

B (31:37)

We did a little bit of it for those who couldn't really get it and actually really wanted to just have a stash in their garage or whatever. Made perfect sense. But we never really pushed it too much until Covid came along. And then we're like, actually we could go under here and we'd need to really, really figure out other ways of getting product to people. So we, we just boosted our direct consumer outlet as much as we could during COVID and then it kind of stuck and I think. And we've got some amazing people. Well, not any. Well, I don't anymore. But you know, the crew there still do it. There's a, there's a dude called Dan Holman who basically just looks after all DTC and the stats that he was giving me from our TikTok shop the other day. I've been on TikTok once in my life. It's like staggering, you know, sometimes I look at stuff and I'm like, there's no way that's going to work. And it works. And I remember just even rainy days at the office, mid February, shitting it down with rain, looking out the window, thinking, I'm going to go and buy some medals. And if I find anyone buying an iced coffee today, they're going to get one, because this is not the day to buy iced coffee. Look at the sales data. Oh, we've sold 20,000 iced coffees today. And you're like, wow, there's actually people out there that really, really want it. I've gone off on a bit of a tangent from D to C there, but that was the COVID Was the turning point for that. We had to make it work.

A (32:47)

That makes so much sense. I mean, the other thing I found, you know, with. With the subscription, of course, is you get loads of free stuff.

B (32:54)

Yeah.

A (32:54)

As well. So I was like, oh, there's a donut.

B (32:56)

Flavorful flavor and a key ring and stickers.

A (33:00)

And there's a note from the team.

B (33:02)

Do you know what? Liv, who used to write our compliment slips, I don't know how many she wrote, it's in the tens of thousands. Yeah, I'd imagine. And there would be. People would place their order in the book at the bottom. There's a little comments box for any other further requests. Can you draw me a picture of a giraffe? Send comes through the order. Okay. Case of original shit. Bloody picture of a giraffe. How do you draw a giraffe? There you go. There's a giraffe. And lo and behold, they Instagram it going, oh, my God. The people in Jimmy's did a picture of a giraffe for me. And it's all of those little things that just made all the difference. I remember getting an email. Oh, no. Someone tweeted us saying, Jimmy's Iced Coffee should be called Jimmy's Ice Laxative, because I've just had one on the train and nearly shit myself. And I was like, dude, I'm really sorry to hear that. Can I just send you some more and just don't have them on the train. So I boxed up this parcel and put a roll of bog roll in there and this Jimmy's. And I said, I hope you don't shit yourself next time. And he photographed the delivery box with the. With the toilet roll in there. And he said, this is like customer care at its absolute finest. And just became to be a really big customer of ours because he was just like, you got me And I get you. And now it's all cool. You know, you could go, oh, I'm so sorry that you experienced that. Bye. It's largely like, no, I'm going to send you some bog roll so you don't shoot yourself next time. And we're going to be human about this. And that's. It's those little touch points that really help it all grow.

A (34:22)

Yeah. So in addition to the customer service, which I have, I've experienced myself and is great. What were the most significant marketing decisions you made along the way?

B (34:32)

I think predominantly just having my name on the front was really helpful in terms of our communication. So we had all of our vocab laid down, we had our outlook on life laid down. So we're very much like loving the outdoors, loving the beach, being able to say certain words, like we wouldn't use the word fab, for example. That's a word my mum uses. We'd use a totally different kind of vocabulary, I think, just being really human with our comms. I mean, I remember I was running social media for probably the first, first seven, seven years. So I'd be up late at night talking to people on Twitter, talking to people on Facebook. So we're not a. Our customer care line is open from 9 till 5. It'd be from 6 o' clock in the morning until 11 o' clock at night or until I've literally fallen asleep. So having that very kind of fluid conversation with people was really, really helpful. I think doing things like our. Our hip hop music video, which I don't know if you've seen, but it's on YouTube, that got us like a million views. That was one of our most iconic kind of things that we did. And then as we got into bottle can, Nick and James and the kind of warehouse crew, bringing the bottle can to life in a big scale. So I'm talking like a six and a half meter bottle can that can be put on the beach. Our bottle can shower with the straws that come out, that make the shower heads, a little boat, motorbikes, all these different things. Because it's such a beautiful thing to look at. So why not make it massive? Because big things of small things are actually really, really cool. Those kind of things were. Were really fun and actually being masters of our own destiny, we never had to go to agency. It was all just done. Everything was done in house. So we owned it. It was a lot cheaper to do, a lot quicker and we could test it, we could fix it so that, yeah, all that kind of stuff was the best. I really. I'm a real kind of like physical person. I like interacting with people in, you know, like actual real life. I don't like hiding behind computers and all that kind of stuff. I know that you have to do it, but it's all about high fiving the public and telling them who you are and why you exist and why they should at least try your products. And if they like it, they'll go and buy it again.

A (36:27)

Just going back to Suntory just for a second. I met one of the, I think one of the family members. Super, super senior, okay. And he came over to Europe and he did a talk at our conference. And he was talking about the history of the company. And I mean that I don't know how many billions turn. I mean, ridiculously big company, right? And he had this sort of 50 year chart and it kind of has. It kind of goes north pretty quickly, but it kind of bumps up and down. And he spent 45 minutes and he was going, we did that. Completely fails. We tried this didn't work. Almost lost my job. You know, like we had to make 6,000 people redundant. Over the course of his 50 years, he was talking about. The only thing he talked about was the failures. I'm like, but dude, the graph's going up in the right direction. Yeah, but I was just fascinated, as you know, I mean, he's, you know, obviously, you know, huge founder and very successful. But what was interesting is how much failure had happened along that way, kind of driven him. I just wonder from your point of view, what have been the kind of biggest sort of failures on the journey?

B (37:22)

I mean, we've had loads from, you know, little like tiny failures to quite monumental ones. You know, when back in the day we thought a 1 liter was just going to work really, really well, but it ended up being there was too much volume in a 1 liter. There's just too much of a risk for someone to take if they'd never had it before. And the price was quite high. So I remember. And we had minimum orders at that particular point, minimum production runs. And we had. It was refrigerated and had lasted 60 days. So we ordered like a football fields worth of pallets of product and we probably got about three, about four of them. So we ended up having to bin a lot. And I remember one of the most painful days was actually doing trips in a van to load pallets in the back of the van, take it to commercial recycling. And then you just had this grabber picking up our product and basically just squeezing it like a sponge and then getting a double mattress and mopping up all the iced coffee on the floor of this massive commercial recycling thing. I remember that being one of the darkest days. Thanks for bringing it up. Where you're just like, is this. Yes. This is still going to work. It's still going to work. It's going to be fine. I remember my sister kind of tearing her hair out and I'm like, just hang on in there. It is going to be okay. This is just one of those monumental mess ups that it's not going to take us under, but it's monumental. There's the standard hiring and firing of people. People. You're like, you know when you hire someone, the interview is like, oh my God, this is the honeymoon period. You're the most amazing. And then three days in you're like, you're fired. You know, there's, there's those, there's those mistakes and they could have been us from a. Are we, are we reading them wrong? I don't really know. They're things like entertaining other businesses. So someone coming along and asking to do white label, you're like, actually we could entertain white label, but the moment you stop focusing on your own brand is the moment that you're focusing on something else. Right. And you're just like, that doesn't necessarily work. So there's lots of little bits and pieces in there, but nothing drastically enough to be like, we, we actually went under.

A (39:11)

And for anyone who doesn't know white, White label is when you make someone else's products.

B (39:15)

Yeah.

A (39:15)

For them, isn't it? So like it'd be John's Iced Coffee, for example. Yeah. Or Tesco's Iced Coffee.

B (39:20)

Yeah. It was actually John Lewis that wanted to have just a liter of ready made iced coffee just in a white, just a, literally a big Tetra pack carton just to put in their cafe so they could just pour it into a glass with ice and off you go. And we're like, well, this could be easy money for us because we're literally just managing a relationship. We just thought, no, we're so busy as it is, let's just, let's just go. Let's just go. Yeah.

A (39:41)

And looking back, what would be so a founder starting out today, wanting to do what you've done. What would be the top two or three bits of advice you'd give to somebody?

B (39:48)

I remember just learning from myself is just like, just know, like know thyself, know what you're actually capable of. And whether you're actually up for the challenge. I think if someone, you know, after, let's say, eight years, when it was starting to get really hard, if someone said to you at the very beginning of the journey, there's a curtain here, and if you can just peek behind the curtain and see what the next eight years looks like, are you going to be up for it? Like, do you want to have a look first of all? And if you did look, would you still want to go? And it's knowing, it's trying to imagine what's behind that curtain for the next 10 years of your life. Because, you know, an entrepreneur is like basically being a slave. It's the hardest thing on earth. It's. There's no glory in it whatsoever until the very well, essentially not the very, very end because there's. There are lovely high points throughout, but the beginning, it's. It's majorly tough. But I reading your notes on the way up here, we've got a really cool guy called Ollie who's doing our house build at home, our contractor. And I said, ollie, how are we getting on with our timeline and stuff? And he said, jim, we're hurrying slowly. And this was only a few weeks ago he said this. And I was like, you know what, I wish you told me this, like 15 years ago, because hurry, slow is just such a great way of doing stuff. So you just, you've got to keep moving, but you just have to do it, like, slowly and methodically. And there's a thing about, say, I used to say yes to everything, but if you say yes to something, whatever it is, chances are there's going to be 10, maybe 20 things you need to do in order to get that thing done. And you might regret it after step three or four, but if you just take 24 hours to sleep on it, if you say no, then you've just stopped yourself from doing 15, 20 tasks to do something that you might not have wanted to do in the first place. So it is about sleeping on it, knowing how, what your capabilities are, whether you're up for the journey, like, truthfully, and your reasons for doing it right. Because I meet companies who are starting out and they're like, yeah, I've got this product idea, but I basically, I just want to be rich. And you're like, dude, if you want to be rich, you're going to cut corners, you're going to make your product less, and it's just going to be shit. So you're the wrong guy. See you later. If it's like, oh, my God, I've got this thing. You're like, okay, that energy is going to last you until Exit. So it's a number of things, but those are pretty much the ones.

A (42:00)

Now, talking of Exit, I was really chuffed to hear that you were selling to Britvic now, Carlsberg Britvic, because in a weird twist of fate. So as I was mentioning earlier in the podcast, years ago, I used to manage kind of like the seed brand team at Britvic, like Lipton Iced Tea and Mountain Dew and a few brands, Gatorade, a few brands like that. And my good friend Russ, of course, now runs Breakthrough Brands at Britvic, who now look after basically running Run Jimmy's, which is brilliant. So a lovely kind of bit of kind of full circle there.

B (42:30)

So cool.

A (42:31)

And the great operation because obviously got big, you know, got big infrastructure, but also love kind of startup brands and getting behind. Getting behind smaller brands, which is brilliant. How does that bit of the process work in terms of, like, doing an M and A and deciding who to sell to and, you know, not that many people have been through an exit. So what's it like for you as a founder?

B (42:50)

I think the timing is one of them. That's obviously a crucial point. You need to be at a certain size to look attractive, to be acquired. And also your M and A partner, we, Piper Sandler, were the guys who did our deal for us, and they used to pop up at trade shows all the time. Be like, you guys ready to sell? It's like, well, no. And how much are you turning over? I'm like, two million. And they're like, oh, my God. I thought you would be at like 10 or 20. No, no, no. They're like, well, you're good at shouting, so, okay, that's great. So eventually we spoke to them enough, and then we actually got approached by one of our direct competitors to potentially purchase us. And I rang our M and A guys. I'm like, do you think we could be ready now? And explained our turnover, et cetera. And he's like, do you know what? Yes. Why don't we do a teaser document that's got no, like, vital and crazy information in there and we won't just send it to them. We're going to send it to your buying Universe. Thank you, LinkedIn jargon. And they found us, like, you know, 20 different companies to send these teaser documents out to. And actually a load came back and said, can we have another document? So NDAs go out, then you send out the next one that's got a bit more information in there. And then suddenly people start fizzing out until you end up with a, you know, a good handful of people you then have to go and physically meet and you have to. You have to do your cockerel strut and do your, like, do the dance and tell them all the fun stuff and tell them how much debt you don't have. Which, which was great. And, you know, it did whittle down to Britvic putting the offer in. And the more and more we kind of did research on them, the more we kind of really felt like it was a natural step over, you know, some of the companies that were looking at us we wanted to talk to, but I don't think we would have said yes because it just didn't. It goes back to that kind of gut instinct of it, like, is this really going to work? Because our dream, you know, wasn't just to just to sell. It was actually about like, we've, we've created this thing and now it needs to fly because it can't fly under our capability. It needs this resource. And it just felt right that they had this resource. They told us what they wanted to do with it and we believed it. And we're now seeing it, which is just like, it's so good. And it makes me feel really happy because I walk into a store and I see a new product that I've never even seen before and I'm like, oh, my God, yes. And it's. And it's just a really. It's a really. I don't know. I don't know what the feeling is, but you just, you just feel really, really good to know that it's gone into safe hands. And man, it's a funnel. Right. Like, you think of all the brands that go into these things that want to sell, sell, sell, and it's just these one. One or two drops that come out the end that are businesses that sell. And, you know, it's a. The stars aligned. We worked our nuts off and it just came out and talk about new

A (45:21)

products, new iced chocolate, by the way. Just a big shout out to see that one. That is delicious.

B (45:27)

Mention the other thing. Can I. Oh, yeah. So I've seen pictures of an ice cream that we're launching an ice cream. Yeah. Which I'm going to get at lunch today, which I'm very excited about. Yeah.

A (45:36)

Heard it here first. Ladies and gentlemen, this is breaking news that makes so much sense.

B (45:41)

I could be in trouble.

A (45:41)

Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. I'll I've definitely been on a couple of cases of that iced chocolate. That is delicious.

B (45:48)

Yeah, it's great.

A (45:48)

But you're right about Brit, because I think what Britvig does, and I'm so pleased they kept this model going, is the innovator's dilemma. Right. Big companies can't do small things.

B (45:56)

Yeah.

A (45:56)

So by having a separate, you see, get the benefit of the big business, operationally, logistically, relationships. But you get the small company focus by having a small team dedicated to the brand. And I think that's the perfect.

B (46:07)

And they can also get stuff done way quicker because when in big companies there's so many layers of red tape that you kind of go, I got this idea, but I just can't be bothered because it's going to take me six months, by which time someone else has launched it and they've already taken market share. And it's. That kind of small business mentality is like, we could get this done really, really quickly, so let's go and do it.

A (46:23)

And that agility.

B (46:24)

Give the finger to everyone else.

A (46:26)

Jim, it's been amazing. I'd love to talk some more because I'm so passionate about this. It's so much fun to talk about. Just maybe for anyone listening. What are you doing now, by the way? Because you've done the big exit. So what happens next for you?

B (46:36)

I had about a year off, which was exciting and also kind of a bit daunting because I didn't have kind of much purpose apart from like making packed lunch for the kids and taking them to school runs and stu stuff. So we did a couple of holidays and bits and pieces and then I thought, you know what? I wouldn't mind still keeping my brain in gear. So me and three dudes have started up a consultancy called beyond the Trees and we basically just help out smallish businesses with all of the shit that we used to go through. So hiring, strategy, branding, whatever they want to do, we. We just basically help out with that. So we've got a few clients on that, which is really exciting. And we're rebuilding our home and. And just having tons more time with the kids. So life is like, at the moment in a really, really sweet spot. So I feel very lucky.

A (47:16)

Good to hear it. Well, well, well earned. Thank you.

B (47:19)

Thank you.

A (47:19)

Given what you've been through, Congratulations.

B (47:21)

Thanks so much. I've had a great time, by the way. Thank you very much for having me.

A (47:24)

Oh, man, I've been looking forward to this.

B (47:25)

This has been great. And thanks for being a subscriber from

A (47:28)

early days, people keep asking me, john, do you really drink a can of Jimmy's mocha every day? I'm like, I do produce a chainsaw. It's my routine.

B (47:36)

In the morning.

A (47:36)

I get up, glass of ice mocha.

B (47:38)

That's so sick.

A (47:39)

Let's go.

B (47:40)

Yeah. That's amazing. Also. Thank you.

A (47:42)

Thanks, man. So I hope you enjoy that episode of Uncensored CMO as much as I enjoyed making it. Now, by the way, I've got a new newsletter, so if you'd like to get my thoughts on the One Thing that I take out from each episode every week, then do subscribe to the One Thing newsletter. I'd really appreciate it. Also, I have another podcast just launched, Uncensored Renegades, with the fabulous Corey Marchisoto. She is one of the world's best CMOs. She's an absolute rock star. Every week we pick one topic, spend 20 minutes trying to fix it. So check out that it's in your feed. Uncensored Renegades. And finally, I want to give a huge thank you to my sponsor, System One. They generously provide so much support for this podcast, it would not happen without them. So big thanks and lots of love to System One. I'll see you next time.

B (48:34)

What's swearing like for you here?

A (48:36)

Go for it, mate.

B (48:36)

Go for it. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

A (48:37)

Please do.

B (48:38)

Not that I. You know, I'm not. No, no, no.

A (48:39)

Just.

B (48:39)

But, like, great to be here.

A (48:41)

Yeah, yeah.