Greg Hahn on why the biggest risk you can take is to be ignorable

Summary

Uncensored CMO with Greg Hahn:

"Why the Biggest Risk You Can Take is to Be Ignorable"

Host: Jon Evans
Guest: Greg Hahn (Founder, Mischief)
Date: June 10, 2026

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Episode Overview

Jon Evans welcomes back Greg Hahn, founder of Mischief, to discuss a core belief in modern marketing: that the greatest—and most expensive—risk brands face is being ignored. Through candid conversation, memorable case studies, and insights on brave work, they explore how embracing risk, surprise, and creativity is vital for standing out. The episode also offers a behind-the-scenes look at Mischief's philosophy, the dynamics of creative agency life, and actionable advice for marketers.

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Main Themes & Purpose

• The cost and danger of ignorable, safe marketing.
• Building environments for brave, surprising ideas.
• How courage and creativity drive both cultural and business impact.
• Case studies from Tubi, JCPenney, and Chili’s.
• The evolving role of the CMO and agency/client relationships.
• The tension between risk and safety in organizations.
• How AI and technology shape creativity and originality.
• Practical wisdom for marketers and young talent entering the industry.

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Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. The Philosophy of Mischief (Agency)

[01:52 – 02:41]

• Mischief is fiercely independent, based in New York but works globally.
• Their mantra: “The riskiest thing a brand can do is be ignorable.”
• Strategy and creativity go hand-in-hand:
  “We say we’re a strategic shop cleverly disguised as a creative shop” (Greg, 01:52).

2. Creating Safe Spaces for Dangerous Ideas

[05:05 – 07:12]

• The real challenge isn’t agency bravery but client alignment and organizational culture.
• Attracting clients open to risk is key to doing outstanding, attention-grabbing work.
• “You never know where too far is until you go there.” (Greg, 06:00)

3. Regret vs. Risk: Choosing Boldness

[06:47 – 07:12]

• The regrets in marketing often stem from playing it too safe to satisfy consensus.
• “What makes you comfortable when you buy it, makes you kind of regretful when you see it and nothing happens.” (Greg, 06:47)

4. Client Advice: Give ‘Just One’ Bold Idea

[07:12 – 07:48]

• If you want extraordinary creative, occasionally trust the agency’s gut—even if you’re nervous:
  “There’s a difference between risky and reckless... just give them one.” (Greg, 07:12)

5. The Role of AI in Creativity

[08:00 – 10:12]

• AI enables fast, cheap production but risks creativity loss through over-reliance on “common” ideas.
• Greg’s warning: Avoid defaulting to AI for inspiration; true originality comes through human struggle—
  “Don’t use AI to fight the white page... AI works by sending you the most common answer, the most obvious answer, the most popular answer.” (Greg, 08:48)
• Memorable Moment: The “pick a number” test—AI almost always picks 7, illustrating its tendency toward consensus ([09:34–10:12]).

6. The Cost of Being Dull

[11:05 – 13:04]

• It’s far more expensive to produce ignorable (dull) work than to invest in something memorable.
• “You don’t have the budget to be boring. Anything that can punch above its weight… to outshine the people who are spending money on things you don’t remember.” (Greg, 13:04)
• Striking stat: In the UK, a dull campaign costs £10 million more in media spend to achieve the same effects as an interesting one ([12:00]).

7. The Power of Surprise

[14:32 – 20:40]

• Surprise is essential for memorability; it breaks patterns and amplifies emotion.
• Supporting research: Surprise boosts emotional response by 4x ([20:03]).
• The Tubi Super Bowl “interruption” ad is highlighted as a masterclass in unexpectedness—causing viewers to talk and remember.

8. Tubi Case Study

[14:49 – 16:29, 20:40]

• Tubi was a little-known streaming service without marquee content; the strategy was to turn this weakness into strength.
• Created disruptive, “rabbit hole” themed ads, including a Super Bowl spot imitating someone switching the TV mid-game.
• Follow-up: Mischief made Tubi versions of other brands’ actual Super Bowl ads—doubling down on surprise and owned relevance.

9. JCPenney Case Study

[22:37 – 25:54]

• Challenge: People liked JCP’s clothes but were hesitant to admit buying them.
• Solution: Flipped audience reluctance into a badge of honor—campaign tagline: “Yes, JCPenney.”
• Notable Activation: Times Square billboards with no logo—only a QR code and “It’s from where?”
• “What if we circumvented that [brand stigma]?... Snapshot the QR code, it took you to JCPenney’s website and it said—‘you probably wouldn’t have gone here if you knew it was JCPenney.’” (Greg, 24:06)

10. Qualities of Great CMOs

[26:02 – 27:26]

• Trust, honesty, treating agencies like partners, and defending creativity in the organization distinguish the best marketing leaders.
• “There’s always a champion behind the best work.” (Greg, 26:02)

11. Chile’s & Goldfish: Creating Culturally Buzzy Brands

[32:13 – 35:53]

• At Chili’s, activating social buzz centered around quirky fandom (e.g., turning red leather booths into luxury cowboy boots).
• Celebrated fan engagement (wedding caterings, viral social contests) as real brand engine.
• In the Goldfish “Chilean Sea Bass” stunt, a mere naming/pack design shift turned a kids’ snack into a grown-up treat.

12. On Pitching & Agency Life

[38:07 – 42:09]

• Mischief prefers building relationships and showing ways of thinking over formal pitches.
• Chemistry and shared vision trump process—some potential clients are turned away if misaligned.

13. Future Trends & Advice

On AI and Headcount
“There will always be a space for thinkers and original thinkers... AI will do stuff that’s efficient but not stuff that’s special.” ([48:36])

On the CMO Role
“CMOs are becoming a really important role... the more voice they’re given, the more successful the brands.” (49:27)

For Young Talent

• Lean into what makes you unique:
  “No one can beat you at being you… Learn the basics before you jump to AI.” (Greg, 53:41–54:23)

14. Most Important Advice

[54:34–55:00]

• “Successful people do what unsuccessful people aren’t willing to do.” —a quote that shaped Greg’s outlook.

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Memorable Quotes & Moments

• On the central dilemma:
  “The biggest risk and most expensive thing you could do as a brand is be ignorable.” (Jon quoting Greg, 00:46)

• On Safe Marketing:
  “You can choose to be uncomfortable today and comfortable tomorrow, or be comfortable today and uncomfortable tomorrow.” (Jon, 07:03)

• On AI’s Limitations:
  “Don’t use AI to fight the white page—because that’s where all the good stuff comes.” (Greg, 08:48)

• On Trusting the Process:
  “Play the angel’s advocate. Don’t always immediately look for why this is not going to work. Find reasons why.” (Greg, 26:52)

• On Brand Legacy:
  “We want people to think of us as the impact agency—on clients’ business, culture, and the industry.” (Greg, 51:24)

• On Enjoying the Work:
  “Your life is made up of days. And if you’re not enjoying your days, what’s the point?” (Greg, 52:46)

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Case Study Timestamps

• Tubi’s Super Bowl disruption — [14:49 – 18:36]
• Tubi’s hijacking of other Super Bowl ads — [20:40 – 22:10]
• JCPenney’s radical rebranding — [22:37 – 25:54]
• Goldfish as “Chilean Sea Bass” — [30:31 – 31:35]
• Chili’s social marketing activations — [32:13 – 35:53]

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Recommendations & Reading

• Mischief’s “mischief mindset”: A strategic set of questions, including “How can we turn a weakness into strength?”
• Psychological research into “the cost of being dull” and the “reward prediction error” as frameworks for understanding audience surprise.
• Classic advice for marketers: cultivate surprise and emotion, not just functional messaging.

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Final Insights and Tips for Marketers

• The most powerful creative work often comes from asking “What would I do if I weren’t afraid?”
• Regret, not failure, is the true cost of playing it safe.
• Trust, partnership, and strategic bravery underpin award-winning work.
• Embrace surprise and differentiate—even in “dull” product categories.
• Focus on originality—AI and efficiency are not substitutes for breakthrough thinking.
• Your personal uniqueness is your competitive edge—double down on it.

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Closing Thought

“The most expensive thing you can have is regret.” (Greg, 47:16)

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For Impactful Creative Marketing:

• Seek discomfort and surprise.
• Collaborate with partners who believe in brave, strategic work.
• Remember: In marketing, as in life, safety may be the costliest option of all.

Transcript

[A]

Hey, everyone. Just before we get into the show, I just wanted to give a really big shout out to my founding sponsor, System One. As many of you know, I worked at System One, and before that I was actually a client of theirs. Now, the thing I love about System One is when I need to make a big decision, they have been there to help me. Because what System One does is use the power of emotion to help predict the likely impact of my innovation or advertising. So when I've been stuck in the boardroom needing to justify why we're going to pick one creative route over another, or launch this innovation over that one, it has been indispensable. It's also really simple to use. Very actionable and incredibly good value, too. So if you want to find out more about System One's Test yout Add or Test yout Innovation, simply go over to systemonegroup.com and find out more. Okay, without further ado, let's go on with the show. Ladies and gentlemen, welcome back to Uncensored cmo. Now, I've got a returning guest in this episode, none other than Greg Hahn, the founder of Mischief Now. One of the quotes from him that I absolutely, absolutely love is the biggest risk and most expensive thing you can do as a brand is be ignorable. So in this episode, we're going to explore all about that and how you can avoid being ignorable. Here it is. All right, ladies and gentlemen, welcome back to Unsensed the cmo. Now, we have a returning guest in this episode and one of the most popular guests of all time, Greg Hahn from Mischief. Welcome back.

[B]

Well, thank you for having me back. Wow. Now I have something to live up to myself. Please lower your bars. No, I, I, I'm really happy to be back and I always enjoyed listening to your conversations. So thank you for having me.

[A]

Oh, it's great. I've been looking forward to this a long time. For anyone who hasn't yet discovered Mischief, I can't remember there's that many people out there that haven't done. But tell us a little bit about what you stand for and a bit about your agency.

[B]

Yeah, it's kind of all in the name. We are an agency based in New York, but we have clients all over the place. And we're independent, fiercely independent. And, you know, our belief is that the riskiest thing a brand can do is be ignorable. So we do work that makes people pay attention. And also, I would like to say we're a highly strategic brand. Oftentimes we say we're a strategic shop kind of cleverly disguised as a creative shop. But everything we do, I think is strongly based equally in creativity and founded on strategy.

[A]

I totally agree. I love your strategy. It must make the creative more obvious. Right. When you really ask the good questions up front, that's what I love for how you ask very provocative questions to get to the strategy.

[B]

Yeah. We're at a great advantage that we have some of the best strategists in the business and pay a lot of attention to who we bring on to that department. Because I always feel like our briefs start off and we're already on the 80 yard line. But I will say this last 20 yards are really hard. So it's not a gimme, but it does give us a lot to work with and sort of momentum going into any project.

[A]

Now, you'll be very pleased with this because last week we had our very first ever uncensored CMO, the calling in London. Almost 400 senior marketers. It was our first ever live event. It was off the scale in terms of energy. The speakers were amazing. It's just such a good vibe. It's very, very cool. And I didn't want the moment to pass without everybody in the audience thinking about what they would have to go and do as a result of the day. So I set them a task. So my task was, what would you do if you weren't afraid? And they all had to write it down on a postcard and we're going to send them the answer that they wrote themselves in a few weeks time. That's great to remind them.

[B]

I love that. Yeah.

[A]

But I thought you'd be pleased because that is such a good. I mean, I. In fact, it's one of the reasons why I went solo on the podcast was I thought to myself before Christmas, well, hang on a minute. If I take fear out of the equation, what do I do? Of course, I'd just do this full time.

[B]

It's the purest answer. And also with clients, because a lot of times you're making decisions based on not what you feel, but what you think somebody else will feel. And if you just took that out of the equation, just go with what you feel and chances are you'll be way ahead of where you were if you held yourself back.

[A]

One interesting side question. So one of the things I did at the Calling was I got my good friend who's a rock guitarist, to play everyone's walk on track as they came on. So I came on to God Save the Queen. What would be your Walk on track.

[B]

Oh, man. That's an open question. Because I'm like a metalhead and I grew up shredding, you know, so part of me wants to go with, like, what's the most, you know? Eruption by Van Halen. Yeah, let's go. Let's go with that and just let somebody shred. But, yeah, it would definitely be something. Something with a lot of distortion in it.

[A]

In fact, the band I played in when I was growing up was called Livewire, so we were named after the Motley Crue.

[B]

Yeah. Oh, my God, I would love to see that.

[A]

And the guitarist's favorite thing to do was play Eruption halfway through our set. It's just amazing.

[B]

You can't call yourself a guitarist and not play Eruption.

[A]

Now, one of the challenges I think you have is you have this idea of creating a safe space for dangerous ideas. How do you go around creating? Because I think if I put my client hat on, I think everyone listening is going to go, yeah, of course we want to do fearless work. Of course we want to do the things that what we do if we weren't afraid. How do you create the environment within the agency where dangerous ideas can emerge?

[B]

Again, I don't think the problem is within the agencies as far as that goes. Well, maybe there's some censoring because creatives have been beaten down so bad, but I think it's aligning with the right kind of clients. And then we, from day one, set up what we stand for and the kind of work we want to do, so we attract those kind of clients. And once you start doing work for them and seeing the benefit of that, it becomes easier. And clients coming into it know the name's mischief. We're going to do something that might raise some feathers, but I think as long as we're all aligned on that and the space is open to play in there, no one's going to punish you for bringing them something that maybe pushes it too far, because you never know where too far is until you go there.

[A]

Has there ever been a dangerous idea that's not yet seen the light of day that you would like to see?

[B]

There's, you know, I tend to not hold on to them, though. That's the thing. It's like, if it doesn't get made, I kind of let it go and focus on what we are making. But, yeah, I'm sure there's plenty of them. Yeah, I mean, my head can spin through the deck of like, 50 of them. But, you know, we've gotten a fair

[A]

share through Because I know, I know as a client, I. My only regrets have been where I haven't made the kind of work I should have made. And I've defaulted back to what I knew I could get consensus for in

[B]

the organization that's such the common thread is you often go for what's comfortable and what you realize is what makes you comfortable when you buy it, makes you kind of regretful when you see it and nothing happens. It doesn't feel as warm and cozy once you put it out there. Nobody reacts to it.

[A]

I think it's almost a general truism in life, isn't it, that you can choose to be uncomfortable today and comfortable tomorrow. You can be comfortable today and then become uncomfortable tomorrow.

[B]

Yeah, right. There's always that trade off. I mean, for the most part, anything good, but as far as like creating the atmosphere, it's also like clients and creatives have to just believe that it can be done. So if you're a client and you want to get the best work out of your agency every once in a while, just give them one. Like even if you don't see it, but they're super passionate about it, they have the, you know, it's not irresponsible. There's a difference between risky and reckless. And it's not irresponsible, but they just have passion for it and you're not sure about it. Just give them one and they will fight for you for the rest of the time they're on their account.

[A]

Just if you put AI into the mix, do you think AI is making us more risk averse or more. Is it liberating us creatively or is it making us more likely to play it safe?

[B]

Well, AI is so general. That depends on what you're using it for. As far as in executions, you've seen some bizarre stuff out there that you know. And it's also allowed people to express themselves and do productions on things that would have cost, you know, 20 fold. You know, so there's a bit of experimentation that goes through that. With that comes a lot of junk. You know, I've said this before. AI is just because it's easier to make something doesn't mean it's easier to make something good. So I think that's the problem we're seeing now is there's a lot of stuff out there and very few things that, that break the mold of just mediocrity.

[A]

So I wondered whether. Because very often in the creative process, it's through the back and forward and questioning and rethinking that actually the best ideas emerge, isn't it? And sometimes if you use AI to go straight to the answer, you'll never go through that iteration.

[B]

Would you? Yeah, no, that's the biggest thing. If I put out a public service announcement, it's like, don't use AI to fight the white page, because that's where all the good stuff comes. I've often said I don't write to show you what I'm thinking. I write to learn what I'm thinking. And that's where experimentation in the wrong ways and the wrong alleys, and then you get to something that you didn't even know you thought. And it's better than where you wanted to go. If you just go to AI, ask it the question, have it spit back a bunch of answers you're already playing in a box that you don't want to be in. It's the most obvious. You know, AI works by sending you the most common answer, the most obvious answer, the most popular answer. And that's not where new stuff happens.

[A]

That's true, because it's aggregating, isn't it, from what's already out there in the world.

[B]

There's an experiment. I can do that with your listeners. We've done this before. It's like ask Chat GPT to pick a number between 1 and 10. Do that live, guarantee it picks 7.

[A]

Really?

[B]

Yeah. Let's try. I mean, it could be wrong by now.

[A]

Is that replicating what a human would

[B]

do in a situation? Because the most popular number is seven and if it didn't pick seven, or if you ask it again, we'll probably pick three. Yeah. So, you know, maybe someone's screwed with the. The algorithm since then, but that. That's normally the case. And that just shows you they're not giving you the most original thinking by far. They're giving you the most common thinking.

[A]

That's interesting.

[B]

What'd you get? Seven. Live. And camera.

[A]

There we go.

[B]

Yeah. Yeah.

[A]

So producer James is just live.

[B]

So I could either be the next Oz Perlman or just know that AI is not giving you the most original answers.

[A]

In uk, it'd be Derren Brown who does those mind tricks of like, I know what you're thinking. You're thinking of the number seven.

[B]

Yeah. No age. Just change your mind. It's three

[A]

is part of the challenge here that we've not factored in because we called the panel. We did it possible today, didn't we? The biggest risk and most expensive risk you can take is to be ignorable Is it a problem? We've not factored in the cost of playing it safe because. Because I think most businesses produce work that is safe and ignorable and they think that's the right thing to do. But is it is the issue. We haven't shown the cost of the downside.

[B]

Right? There's no punishment for doing the average thing because it's like, I would have done the same thing if I were you. You could see it. But if you put your neck out on the line and do something that is quote, unquote illogical or outside the box, you're a target. And if that is, you know, an easier target, if your company doesn't believe in that or if they see it as a failure, they can pinpoint you for it. And that's scary for clients. You have to understand that's why we try to make sure everything we do is backed up with strategy and thinking and in some points, data or social listening. Because as a CMO, you can't just walk into your, your CEOs office and say, we're doing this because we think it's cool. It's like that now you're suddenly subjective against subjective. It helps to have that objective backing to whatever you're doing if you're going to push it.

[A]

And wildly. I can back this up because by far the most successful presentation I've done in my entire life was the extraordinary cost of being dull. Showing a 30 second film of cows eating grass. And I find it wild that that's become the thing. But we wanted to. I was having a conversation with Adam Morgan and Peter Fields and they were saying, because we've been talking about why emotional advertising beats rational advertising for years now. We've all known that if you make people feel something more likely to buy, but we're not changing our behavior. And so they thought about it from the loss aversion idea at Daniel Kahneman's, right, if you know, you experience a pain twice as much as you experience again. And so what we thought we'd do, well, maybe we could show people quite how much money they're losing by doing this. It's an amazing experiment. So they, they divided this big database into dull advertising, not dull advertising. And they worked out, this is UK data, that for every dull campaign you'd have to spend an extra 10 million pounds of media spend to create the same in market effects as the interesting one. Now imagine the kind of work you do for 10 million. Now that replicates in the US more like 100 million when you do the translation across, but it's a wild number, isn't it?

[B]

Yeah, I know, I think we've talked about this before, but I've said this to our clients. It's like you don't have the budget to be boring. I love anything that can punch above its weight and use sort of the fulcrum of creativity to leverage outshine the people who are spending money on things that you don't remember.

[A]

And it's a massive opportunity. I mean, this is the thing. Because if most people in your category are doing dull work, then it gives you a huge open field to go and play.

[B]

Yeah, yeah. And it does raise the bar for everyone. I mean, if you look at what had traditionally been the most boring category in advertising is now where all the fun work is. And that's insurance. Right?

[A]

So true.

[B]

Yeah. Because they realize that someone is outshining them through creativity and if they don't do the same thing or raise the bar on their end, they're going to be forgotten.

[A]

I have a slight theory that there's an inverse correlation between how interesting the category is and how dull the advertising is. Because if you're in a high interest category like cars or mobile phones or something, there's lots of product features to talk about. Oh, we got the brand new phone that does this or does that. But if you take in the uk, right. If you take the best advertising in the uk, be bread or it'll be tea or it'll be insurance, it'll be the most dull categories where you have no choice but differentiate based on your creative.

[B]

Right. Why is someone going to pick your brand is not because your bread is better than their bread. Who knows? It's because you've formed some sort of connection with them.

[A]

Now let's dive into some case studies because there's some amazing case studies that we can talk about. And I thought I'd start with to be one of my favorites and what you did for them at the Super Bowl a couple of years ago. But before talking about it, talk me through the strategy you came up with. Tubi.

[B]

Well, for Tubi, we had, you know, it was a brand new client and not many people had heard of them, so we had to find like, what's the soul? What's the essence? What is to be at its core? And one of the questions we like to ask at Mischief, part of our quote unquote mischief mindset, which is kind of just a series of questions we ask. I think we talked about this last time, but a favorite question of ours is how can we take a weakness and turn it into our strength? And what we found with Tubi is they're a streaming service that doesn't have any marquee, you know, showpieces. They're not like HBO or Netflix, which has all these very high value, very prestige titles and originals. Tubi's not that Tubi has hundreds and thousands of movies about sharks and tornadoes and shit like that, you know, but they have so much stuff that you're going to find something that you really want to watch. So that's what the strategy became is like watching 2 Bay is like going to a buffet of rabbit holes because you're just going through here and now you're down here and now you're down here. And you'll always find something interesting and something really entertaining. And that's. That was our strength, not that we had the titles, is that we had entertaining stuff in a lot of it in some very niche stuff. So find you'd. Rabbit hole was the first thing we did on super bowl and then the other. There was actually two briefs for the Super Bowl. The main one was our client literally said this to us. The brief was, what the fuck is Tubi? And we just wanted people talking and saying and looking and searching for to be the day after the Super Bowl. So that's where we did the interruption of the game.

[A]

Now just explain. So everyone who's not familiar with the super bowl or the interruption, just explain the mechanic, because it is. It was a brilliant example of surprise.

[B]

Yeah, well, we got lucky. The super bowl was on Fox and Tubi is owned by Fox. So they let us literally use the same announcers that they had on the Super Bowl. So we pre taped a segment with them saying welcome back to the Super Bowl. And then what we did was create a interface where it looked like the video looked like someone was scrolling through your menu going on Tubi and picking a movie for you during the tightest super bowl in history. I think it was. It was down till fourth quarter last play, and then this happened and people kind of freaked out about it, but they did remember Tubi got the world talking and checking out Tubi the next day. So, you know, it was effective, it was super cool.

[A]

And it was one because in my old system, one job, I was paid to watch the super bowl ads and comments on them. So I remember seeing it live. It was. It was incredible. Have you ever come across the reward prediction error theory?

[B]

No.

[A]

So I came across this recently near iow, had a podcast a couple of weeks ago. Was talking about it and it's this experiment with monkeys drinking juice that sounds a bit random. We have to kind of roll with it for a bit.

[B]

Right.

[A]

They were looking at the dopamine hits.

[B]

There's nothing random about.

[A]

Nothing random about this. We talk about rabbit holes. It's like.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

And what he was measuring was the idea that obviously the monkey would drink juice and get this dopamine hit.

[B]

Right.

[A]

And then what they noticed is when they turned the light on before feeding the monkey the juice, the dopamine hit came in when the light came on because the monkey started to understand, oh, I'm going to get something good now. And the actual drink of the juice didn't change. And then they noticed a third thing, which is when they turned the light on but didn't deliver the juice, the monkey then had this depression in dopamine. Right. So disappointed because it was anticipating something. Right?

[B]

Yeah. And.

[A]

And what was interesting about it is that it identified that our actual experience is more driven by our prediction of what's going to happen than the thing itself. And what you did is you messed with the prediction. So in other words, you're sat there thinking, I'm going to get this half time analysis of the game. And then you've interrupted it and you've just completely thrown the expectation of what's going on.

[B]

Yeah, it's a breaking pattern. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Which is a good way to get somebody's attention. But you've also uncovered a truth which I've often thought is the key to happiness, which is low expectations.

[A]

Totally, Absolutely.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Well, I've got. I've got a thing because can this year the. I'm doing a keynote with Adam Morgan again. So we're taking one of the things that ironically, one of the surprising things that we noticed in the Extraordinary Cost of Being Dull was the importance of surprise in capturing people's attention and making them remember things. Right. And we found this very old paper by this guy, Murray S. Davis, a psychologist back in the 1970s, and it's called that's Interesting. And basically what it was was he analyzed all these academic papers and said what makes something interesting. And his core conclusion was it denies an assumption of your audience. In other words, it surprises you, it challenges a pretenbr. It's the same thing. So our talk this year is going to be. We haven't quite got the title, but Caught by Surprise or something like that. And we're going to demonstrate the power of surprise to actually make advertising stick and be remembered.

[B]

I would ask you what you're going to do. But that would completely wipe out the entire point.

[A]

That's your opening in the podcast, right? The pressure. Now, I'm not thinking about the research. Research is easy. It's all there. I'm thinking about how I deliver it

[B]

now because it's on the delivery. Yeah, da da.

[A]

It's going to be a big surprise. But I think your Tubi example is a wonderful example of surprise. And we also, in the research we're doing, I identified that surprise amplifies your emotional response by four times. So it's a very, very good way of accentuating how you feel. And the to be rabbit hole is a good example. Right. Because that's one of the least dull ads on the system, one database of all time. Because, like, no one felt neutral. Half of them felt anger and disgust, and half of them felt happiness and surprise. No one felt neutral.

[B]

Yeah, yeah. We've got plenty that run the spectrum, which I love. I would rather have someone feel strong on both poles than nothing in the middle.

[A]

Now, the other thing I thought was great about Tubi is what did you do a couple of years later where you took the disruption idea, but you disrupted other people's ads, didn't you?

[B]

Yeah, we had this idea for making other ads Tubi content. So through social listening, there's this phrase that kept coming up is like, oh, my God, that should be a Tubi movie, or that's a Tubi movie, or my life is a Tubi movie. And what we define that as this batshit crazy plot. It just makes no sense or it's random and weird. So we thought during the super bowl, what if we took commercials that were running on the super bowl and turned them into 2B versions of those commercials? So we partnered with, like three or four brands, you know, Poppy being one of them, gummies being one of them. We took their commercial, and then right after it, we used the same cast, same settings, took their storyline, and took it to a bizarre 2B place and ran it right after it. So, yeah, it was really fun. But it also kind of played into the strategy of what does 2B offer that no other place does?

[A]

What I loved about it is it was random, but it also made complete sense for to be. Yeah, it was just so obvious.

[B]

Well, that's the key. It can't just be random for random sake. It has to, in retrospect, come back to be like, that makes perfect sense.

[A]

It just felt familiar. As in. As in, oh, yeah, that's a horror movie kind of version of Poppy. Or whatever.

[B]

Yeah. We wanted to do a thing where it's like the most. Like where you could vote in the most popular one. We would write and make. Make an actual 2B movie off of it.

[A]

Ooh, that'd be good.

[B]

Still might do it. Yeah.

[A]

Brands would be queuing up for that, wouldn't it?

[B]

You would think.

[A]

You think so? Yeah.

[B]

Any brands out there want to do

[A]

it, so just give Greg a call, pitch it, and you could be in the next Tubi movie.

[B]

I love that.

[A]

Now, you know, you look at Tubi, it's a challenger brand. It's doing things differently. That's why it's growing. Let's go to the complete opposite end of the spectrum, right? J.C. penney legacy brand. Sales in decline. Brand that's in a little bit of trouble. I mean, you know, still financially solvent, but, you know, losing its audience. How do you turn that around?

[B]

Yeah, well, it's basically the same sort of human trait and a surprise because what we learned was that people actually like JCPenney clothes. Their clothes were getting better. What they didn't like is telling people it's from JCPenney. Right. So we like, how can we again turn that into a strength and have people proud to say it's J.C. penney? And that usually comes from just stuff. Again, social listening. We heard people going, can you believe I got this at JCPenney? Or someone asked me where I got this and I had to tell him, JCPenney. So we use that sort of social lubricant of like when someone says, where'd you get that? And you say JCPenney, and they question it. You go, yes, JCPenney. And that's turned out to be their tagline. It was just, yes, JCPenney off of that surprise.

[A]

I love the self awareness of that because few brands, I think, in a tough position like that would be as honest as going, yeah, we know this is a problem and we're going to actually double down.

[B]

You need someone from the top to believe in that. And that was Marissa, who came in with fresh perspective and brought us this idea of like, don't sleep on JCPenney was through her words, it's like people are surprised how great they are, except for they just don't include it in their set. They've written it off.

[A]

Now. You did something that I've never heard any marketer ever, ever do in my entire career. So most marketers would say to you, make the logo bigger. Marissa actually said to you, remove the logo entirely.

[B]

Yeah, well, she agreed to listen or

[A]

she Agreed to remove the Drago entirely.

[B]

I mean, we, we're like this, well, partners. Hands in hands. So, you know, it was very much like, we didn't have to convince her of anything. But the thing we thought was like, the only thing, like stopping people from buying these clothes is the name JCPenney. So what if we circumvented that? And again, once you put the two together, the surprise is what's going to stick. So we had a billboard, we had a lot of billboards in Times Square, which is not cheap. You know, it's like high profile media and high fashion shoots with people decked out in JCPenney clothes. And they look great and the clothes were cool. And we just put, you know, a QR code on there, no logo. And then it said, it's from where? I think. And then when you connected with the. When you snapshoted the QR code, it took you to JCPenney's website and right on the website said, you probably wouldn't have gone here if you knew us from JCPenney. And it showed all the clothes and it suddenly just circumvented that sort of gate. People had kept up in their heads about, I don't want to shop at JCPenney. But once they convince themselves by falling in love with the clothes, first it

[A]

unlocks something and then it becomes a secret, isn't it? Oh, it's JCPenney. You're in the know then, aren't you?

[B]

That's bragging rights. Yeah. And then we've started seeing throughout social, listening up to this campaign, and throughout is people doing these hauls at JCPenney of like, look at what I got, JCPenney. And then wearing them out. And you. Marissa is like the best brand ambassador. She wears it to Cannes and on the Runway everywhere. And people always come up to her and go, where'd you get that? And it's that experience. Yes. JCPenney.

[A]

You know what you're gonna get if you ask Marissa where she got that from, isn't it?

[B]

Yeah, yeah. Chances are, there's a good chance that it. But you won't be able to tell. I mean, whatever your stylish. Yeah. Their preconceptions of JCPenney are they're gonna. They're changing. So, you know, shout out to the whole company for embracing it.

[A]

You mentioned Marissa there, and obviously she's a big part of why that's been successful. What are the traits of the most successful CMOs that you work with?

[B]

Trust, honesty, bringing us in, treating us like partners. And Then understanding the value of creativity and being able to defend that. Because I know CMOs have the hardest job is after our great meeting, it's always the meeting after the meeting where they have to sell it up through the organization. So you have to have the champion. You know, our best work comes because there was someone in the organization that was a champion.

[A]

And I thought, Nicole, today on the panel, we did it possible was was really smart about buying some time to let the process unfold. So rather than reacting to it straight away, almost saying to the rest of the team, right, you know, give this a bit of time to unfold. Because often I know I'm a fairly creative person, I can imagine where you're going with something. But lots of people just respond to literally what they're seeing, don't they? And you have to let things unfold a little bit.

[B]

Right. And an easy way to look SM in a meeting is to find the flaw. So you have to resist that temptation of like find what's wrong with it. Because I'm smarter than them. I figured this out and they didn't see it. So we do have a phrase that we use is play the angel's advocate. Don't always immediately look for why this is not going to work. Find reasons why. And then when someone brings up an obstacle, let's find a way around it, let's not kill it. And I think too many agencies and clients look for reasons why it won't work and not trying to find solutions.

[A]

Well, weirdly, back to conversation about loss aversion, maybe that if we feel the pain twice as much as a gain, maybe there's a similar thing in feedback. We feel like, you know, twice as much pleasure from saying why something won't work as we do from supporting it to work.

[B]

Yeah, it's just easier. And trust me, we're not just glad, you know, like pushing all the flaws under. There's a time and a place and certain criticisms and certain things that in the way you do it in a sense of like, we should be aware of this, we should be know about this. How can we solve it? And if we can't solve it, maybe we should move on. You know, like, you gotta let go if it's wrong. But sometimes people, you know, the energy starts going the wrong way and people just start piling on for no reason.

[A]

Now, do you want to talk about the movie trailer you made or didn't make for JCPenney as well? Because explain that to anyone who's not heard about omittings. I think it's very, very clever, what you created.

[B]

Yeah, well, they have a partnership with Ashley Graham, who's this very popular influencer and model that does clothes for larger sized women and very high style, very fashionable clothes. And that's part of JCPenney's core, is that they're inclusive everybody. So they have a great line of fashion for Ashley Graham that they were coming out with. And we wanted to just subvert expectations again. And one of our creatives or planners found a statistic that like, you know, 67% of the population can be considered plus size, but in Hollywood, the representation of plus size women is like 3%. So we made a trailer of the movie you will never see. And it was called, you know, something like gone missing or something like that. And it was this high stylized trailer for a movie. And then we revealed that this is a movie you won't see because Hollywood won't let you. And it's just throughout the trailer you saw amazing clothes, high style shot like, you know, Michael Bay something, and you wanted to see it and you realized that there are things stopping you from seeing that. And that's the system. And so, you know, it was championing a cause and also highlighting some clothes.

[A]

And I love that. That's. It's also tapping into something very true about culture.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

And about how we represent people, don't

[B]

represent people, and how we're made to feel when we see the culture. And like, we don't exist if you're not part of the elite, you know, in that very narrow market that tends to be Featured.

[A]

And also JCPenney for everybody. Right. So that they are making clothes for everyone.

[B]

Right.

[A]

And it makes complete sense to, you know, appeal to their core audience.

[B]

Yeah, yeah. The whole brand campaign we launched for was this idea of, you know, sort of the underdog getting, getting their way, you know, being the sort of the envy of. Of everyone else when normally they aren't put in that position.

[A]

Now, sticking on the product theme, one of my favorite case studies of yours is Chilean sea bass, like, because I just think that was a genius bit of product design. What was the thing, what was the thing behind that?

[B]

Well, I love these ideas that are just, you know, one small little change makes, you know, it's creative leverage. One small change makes a huge difference. And what we changed there was, you know, might. Might seem small to us, but to a brand to change the name of their, their core product was quite a big change. So the idea was that they wanted to say that, you know, goldfish aren't Just for kids. A lot of adults eat them, but they don't think of them as adult snack. And a lot of times they don't want to admit that they eat them. So, you know, taking. Taking a cue from. From, you know, vintage marketing, we changed the name from Goldfish to Chilean Sea Bass, which is actually how Chilean Sea Bass, the original name came about. It's a fake name that they use for gutterfish or something. It was originally called something else. And no one.

[A]

Was he repositioning an unknown fish?

[B]

Yeah, he was repositioning unknown fish that had a horrible name and nobody ordered from the menu.

[A]

That's genius.

[B]

So they called it Chilean Sea Bass. So in a nod to that, it was like, why don't we call goldfish Chilean Sea bass? And we just changed the packaging, changed everything. So suddenly now it's the same exact product, but it's for adults. And, you know, it ended up working very well for them.

[A]

There are so many things, aren't there, like that. Like that, where I think oysters were the same. Oysters were a very, very cheap thing.

[B]

It's all mental game. Right.

[A]

And they reposition them as this high end kind of luxury food.

[B]

Yeah, I heard the story, might have been Rory that was saying about potatoes where they couldn't get anybody to eat potatoes when there was, you know, very little food but potatoes left. And I think this was in London. So what they did, they ordained them the king's food and put like, you know, guards around them. So suddenly they become desirable because they're scarce and only the king is able to eat them. Whereas they had tons of them. They just wanted people to, you know, desire them.

[A]

That would explain why there's a variety of potato called the King Edward. Yes, that'll be why. Right. That's where that was the name of the country.

[B]

Wow.

[A]

Yeah, we've solved this one. One of my favorite case that is yours. And it's relevant because I'm going to be chatting to the CMO of Chile's this week, actually. And bear in mind, they're in casual dining. This is very competitive and they've delivered. They've now become the second largest casual dining chain in the US 19 consecutive quarters of growth and last year, 31% growth, which is exceptional for a casual dining chain.

[B]

That marketing team is incredible on all cylinders. They work with a few agencies, but just across the board in all dimensions. They're on product on the way they position their product on the way they go to market, and on the way they just handle all their Communications and social and treat their agencies. They're great. And their stock, ever a case for improving unignorable works, their stock is tripled.

[A]

A lot of what Chili's have been transformed is how they shop online, become a very buzzy brand. Lots of people talk about them. What is it that you've done to help them create that online reputation?

[B]

Yeah, I mean, again, Chili's does work with a few agencies, and all those agencies are great and doing some good stuff. What we've focused on is, like, listening to what's going. Conversations that are happening, and they have a pretty active fan base, so to speak, and finding what's culturally relevant and what people really love and have always loved about Chili's and what makes them different. You know, it's the core things. Something about the experience of dining in Chili's, which is really special. And a lot of it comes down to the atmosphere. But a big part of that atmosphere is these red leather booths that you sit in. And there seems to be a lot of passion around. So we. We took the red leather and turned them into cowboy boots with and did a brand collaboration with them and sold for thousands of dollars. Sold out like that.

[A]

But just igniting actual chiliz leather.

[B]

Yeah. From the actual boots.

[A]

From the actual boots.

[B]

Yeah. And we made some really cool boots and sold, you know, for thousands of dollars and just igniting the passion. The one of the first things we did for them is we learned that somebody had catered their wedding through. Through Chili's, you know, really. Which is kind of. And it was a big wedding. It wasn't like they had, you know, just family and friends over someone's backyard. They catered the whole wedding from Chili's, and it cost them, like, you know, $300. Compare that to tens of thousands that most people say.

[A]

That's a great hack, actually. Yeah, I imagine people were delighted.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

So when the thing is, you're usually starving because you've had canapes and champagne.

[B]

Yeah, it's good food.

[A]

Desperate for like a big.

[B]

And they were proud of it, and they should be. And what happened was that it became kind of the viral things. Like everyone was like, do you see this? They can't tell what, like, what is saying the same things you were. So we. We did an activation with them that on. Started on Instagram or TikTok that we said, the first person that proposes to their. Their fiance, soon to be fiance at a Chili's captures on tape, we will cater to their wedding. So we got tons and tons of videos of people Proposing to their surprise. Yeah, yeah. And the surprises, it was all genuine. I mean, I'm sure some people may have faked it, but we got some really genuine. Holy shit. And the whole restaurant gathered around them and it was really fun, content. And we end up catering a couple innings for people.

[A]

And the cost of that is hardly anything. Right. It's a bit of free food, isn't it? But the publicity is amazing.

[B]

Yeah. So they're really good at listening to their customers. I think that's the big thing. And creating value. I mean, the person that is putting together all this, George Felix is the master.

[A]

What does he do so well, would you say, as a cma?

[B]

I think he's just really smart at finding the value in what the brand brings and trusting people. He surrounds himself with really good people and trusts them and knows how to guide them. It's that easy. It's that difficult. Right.

[A]

And how long has he been doing his role for?

[B]

I think he's been there a couple years. We met him through Tinder. He was at Tinder and then when he took the job. So it's been less than five years. When he took the job at Chili's, we started working with him from there. And before that he was at kfc. He was at Good Work Follows George. So we tried to follow George, too.

[A]

And what's he like to work with day to Day in terms of how you and his team collaborate?

[B]

Very collaborative and they're open and it's never us in them, it's always all of us. Yeah, yeah. It's anybody. Any marketer should study that team. They're great. It's not just my word saying that. Look at their stock price.

[A]

Stock price is amazing.

[B]

It's crazy.

[A]

It's absolutely flying. I thought I'd ask you, what's the most dangerous piece of work you've done that we haven't talked about, Would you say?

[B]

I don't know. It's hard for me to say because. Dangerous.

[A]

Asking you between your children here a bit. But there must be. Okay. Yeah.

[B]

I don't know if I have an answer to that.

[A]

Do you. Do you have a piece of work that you're especially proud of?

[B]

Some for different reasons. I mean, it's so hard to say, honestly, just because I get excited about every piece of work that we put out there because we don't have any fillers. And I realize that any client that puts out work is in some sense taking a risk. So what we try to do is push that as far as we possibly can. And then mitigate those risks by being smart about how we get there. Yeah, yeah.

[A]

No, that makes sense. I want to move on, if I can, to your view on the future state of marketing and where. Where we go next. Because obviously what you've created is something incredibly exciting with mischief, and you're solving big business problems very, very. In a very, very creative way. So I thought I'd throw a few topics at you just to react to and tell me where does it go next. So let's start with pitching.

[B]

Right.

[A]

So now you got views on pitching. What's the future of pitching look like?

[B]

Well, more and more, the way we have found pitching to end up is like, you'll get a call from clients who are interested. They're looking at a few agencies. The way we like to handle these kind of things is like, let's get to know each other first. Let's do a chemistry session and let us show you how we think. And if you still want to do a pitch, we can talk. But most of the time, we won't go through that process because we feel like if you know our work, we connected and you understand how we think, then why not get to work? Right. I think that there's a lot of wasted effort and passion that goes into pitching that could be spent working on the actual business.

[A]

And also, I mean, to give you feedback as well. I find compared to most other agencies, you're very transparent about the questions you ask, things you stand for, the process you go through. Even the strategy you created for 2B is easily accessible online. The work and the results.

[B]

Yeah. People know what?

[A]

I don't really know what else I'd be asking.

[B]

Yeah, right. I think the biggest thing and the most important thing is do we connect as people?

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

It's probably the chemistry question.

[B]

Chemistry, yeah. That's the most thing. We've had great brands come to us with healthy budgets, but we just say no because the chemistry wasn't right. And it could have been us, could have been them, but we just didn't feel like we would be partners against sitting around the table and wanting the same thing.

[A]

You reminded me of something. I went years and years ago, I was on a panel, and it was probably about 100 people from creative agencies, and I was the one client on the panel, and we were talking about pitches and whether we should ban pitches. Right. I can't tell you how emotional it got.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

People felt so strongly about pitching and why they shouldn't have to pitch and how much time gets wasted. And, you know, how little money ever gets paid and how unlikely you are to win. And now I agree with them. But I did make one point, and I said, don't forget that your customer has a customer. And for me, this is 9pm in an evening. And on the next day, I was getting up at 4am to drive five hours to a famous chain in the UK called Gregg's the Baker. And I was pitching myself to try and maintain my listing in Greg's, which. And they were my number one customer. So I just said, if you can understand the need of your customer's customer, you don't need to pitch, because if you can solve that problem, you'll never need to pitch again.

[B]

That would be great. Yeah, I agree with the 200 people at your panel because, yeah, I do think pitching is sort of a wasted exercise. I understand why it's done and that it needs to be done in certain cases, but I think there are much better ways to find a partner. It's like going on the Bachelor for brands, you know, it's heartbreaking.

[A]

And in terms of mischief, what. What's your percentage of, like, pitches versus not. Does most of your business now come without a pitch?

[B]

We do pitch and, you know, like I said, there's certain circumstances that, you know, the measures are put in place. So it feels like it's a worthwhile endeavor. But most of the part, you know, for most of the things we've, we've taken on, we've either it started with pitch and we sort of talked to them and decided there's no need to do a pitch, or it's just come cold to, you know, straight on, no pitch, which I feel like there's a good, you know, trust built at the beginning of a relationship. They like the way we work, and we always have a good chemistry session. You can't, you know, we won't take on a client that we don't feel like we could, you know, partner with. They have to be people that we like first of all, and brands we believe in and people that we feel will understand our mission and we connect with.

[A]

I totally agree. I always think it's a mark of the strength of your brand when you don't have to pitch. It's a really good indicator, isn't it? The less you pitch, the stronger your brand.

[B]

Yeah, we set that up from day one. It's like our best new business tool wants to be the work we do for other clients. And if you can keep that going, that sort of flywheel, you start doing better work for clients. And then other clients see it and then hopefully that spins into better work.

[A]

As you said at the beginning as well, the clues in the title, Mischief.

[B]

Right?

[A]

You buy mischief, you get mischief. What's your view on the future of social media?

[B]

It's interesting. I've heard people say it's going to end because of AI agents and bots and robots talking to each other. I still think there's going to be a need for people to connect. I hope that it'll get back to what social media started, which is people connecting one on one or one to many versus just people, you know, or companies kind of interrupting that or bots interrupting that. I think, you know, if you go back to the early days of social media, there's such a unity there and you connected with people. Now it's become a media space.

[A]

I know. I mean, I mean, my biggest social media is LinkedIn. And even on LinkedIn, which I think is professional, I used to be, I got content from people I wanted to hear from and now I get content based on what they want to serve me. And it's even more extreme on the other platforms. You know, it's 95% what they want you to see rather than what you

[B]

want to see or what you accidentally clicked on.

[A]

Yeah, yeah, yeah, exactly.

[B]

God forbid, right?

[A]

You're looking something up for, you know, for some random reason. Now the algorithm thinks you're into shark costumes or something. Going back to 2B, what other agency work are you envious? Envious of that you look out there these days.

[B]

Yeah. Always widen, you know, uncommon, of course. You know, sort of our peer playground. Bear meets Eagle on Fire. Love their stuff and a couple good agencies.

[A]

And which bits of the work do you. Do you admire from afar?

[B]

The telco stuff for Bear meets Eagle on Fire. Love the British Airways stuff. Like I mentioned, pretty much everything that I see from Bear, it's been pretty great. And then Wyden, they, they've been knocking Nike out of the park various times since they got that count. So even today they, you know, there's great lines out there, great thoughts or activations, whatever. You know, they just always come through.

[A]

I. In terms of why I, I really admire their McDonald's work.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

You know what I mean?

[B]

It's like super insightful.

[A]

Yeah, insight. It's spot on. It's the activation they build around it is really, really good and the results are amazing. And it's like, I mean, McDonald's is a cool brand now. It wasn't a cool brand 10 years ago.

[B]

Yeah, they've done an amazing job with it.

[A]

Yeah, incredible job.

[B]

Yeah. And I think they've done it through simplicity, like finding human insights and connecting with those.

[A]

You know, I met the guys behind the work, and they did this massive road trip across America. You know, it's like they put the hard yards in.

[B]

Yeah, I've heard that.

[A]

Going back to what unsuccessful people are not willing to do.

[B]

Exactly.

[A]

Drive across America and go to every outlet and talk to every person ordering every meal and then find out what works.

[B]

But also comes down to, like, the people who are proving that they had a good client who was willing to say yes. And it's remarkable how many times that leads to success, but how few people do it. Just every once in a while say yes.

[A]

Yeah, totally true. Probably an impossible question because you are doing it, but what would you do if you weren't afraid today? I know what you'd have done originally because you did it. But today, as you look ahead, is there anything that fills you with fear?

[B]

Not in a general basis. I mean, I'm. I try not to, you know, push that, but push that down. Like, if I want to do it badly enough, I'll do it. But yeah, that question comes up all the time, though, when making decisions. I think any decision is based off of what's the more risky part and what's where, the rewards and that. It's just something you constantly remind yourself of, like, what would you do if you weren't afraid? And we ask ourselves that in reviews and things like that all the time.

[A]

I think it's recognizing that it's a powerful force that is often unacknowledged. Acknowledging it and bringing it out as, you know, and go, why do I feel fear around this? And then what if I didn't? And then what would have to be true?

[B]

It's just so liberating. Like, what if I didn't feel fear at this moment? And then suddenly you're lighter. Right. Your heart is a bit like, more open. And then good things happen from that. Totally the opposite is true when you restrict. Right.

[A]

Because I kind of had the following question when I independent on this podcast, which was, so what if I wasn't afraid? I'll do this full time. What would have to happen for me not to be afraid in terms of what would need to be in place for. For. For it not to feel like a fearful decision and to feel like an

[B]

obvious decision and we able to do that.

[A]

Yeah, yeah, yeah. Well, it was really good, actually, because it then focused my mind on the things I had to do, to get in place, whether it was kind of putting money aside, whether it was kind of getting the right team in place, whether it was, you know, getting a sponsor or, you know, that sort of thing.

[B]

You know what that question does is it forces you to find a way.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

You know, suddenly you're not thinking why you shouldn't do it. You're thinking, how can you do it?

[A]

Exactly.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

And you end up in questions you never thought like cash flow. I mean, this has been the thing that's like, oh, well, I'd actually need to manage my cash flow or I

[B]

need to have, you know, but not insurmountable. Yeah, yeah. Everything's true. Yeah.

[A]

And then you think, well, what has to be true for that not to be a problem, Et cetera, et cetera. You know, you just keep following the

[B]

logic and any of that is better. Living in regret or fear, that's the most expensive thing you can have is regret.

[A]

And the other thing as well is you can never know all the answers in advance, but you can know, looking back at your track record of what is true every time. So I know that, you know, more people want to work on the podcast. I know that we'll get better guests. I know that.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

I know today that there'll be good things that happen in the future as a result of this conversation we have today, because I know that happens. I don't know what it is, but I know it's going to happen. And it's also backing. It's looking at the data and go, well, the data says over seven years. I've got enough evidence here that I don't know the answer, but I know it's going to be good.

[B]

Yeah. That's confidence in experience.

[A]

Exactly.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

What's the future of the. Okay, let me put some context on this question now. This is UK data, Right. So it may not be the same in the US been the UK. Last year, headcount in creative industries dropped by almost 15%. It was the biggest decline in headcount in the history of the data. Right. Worse than Covid, worse than 2008 financial crisis. To lose 15% of our headcount in creative industries is an insane kind of thing. What will the future creative agency look like?

[B]

Yeah, I mean, that is a staggering amount. I think that's people looking for efficiencies over effectiveness, I think. But for me, I think there's still this going to be a space. There will always be a space for thinkers and original thinkers and people that can bring themselves to the work because there are just things that we do that as humans that AI won't be able to do. You have to find that and find what makes you unreplicable, and that's your strength. I think people are worried about AI for the wrong reasons, which is AI is going to do stuff that is efficient, but they're not going to do stuff that's special 100%.

[A]

What does the future of the CMO role look like? Do you think asking for a friend might say asking for a friend podcast host, but asking for friends, asking for uncensored friends.

[B]

Yeah, I think I'm starting to see the CMOs become a really important role, and the more voice they're given, the more successful you see the brands. Let's take Chili's for example, Right. And I think certain companies are starting to understand that. And you see CMOs almost going over to CEO positions, and I think that's a good thing.

[A]

That's a really interesting insight. Just after Covid, actually, someone wrote a report and they were looking at the perception of the CMO role with the CEO and the rest of the company during COVID and there was a fascinating conclusion, is that in times of crisis, everyone looks the CMO to get them out. And when things are going well, everyone celebrates together. It's like success has many fathers, failures and orphan. And the CMO role is the one that in uncertain times, everyone's looking to go, where are we going next? So weirdly, I've got a very contrarian view that I think now is an amazing time to be a cmo, because if you're prepared to step into the void that's created by the uncertainty around AI and the uncertainty in the world and politics and everything else, you're going to do pretty well because there's an absence of leadership and direction. And the other thing is, I did a CMO survey recently with TikTok, and even though these are the best CMOs in the world that I'm surveying, 78% of them said their CEO couldn't even articulate the marketing strategy, which I thought was shocking. So the opportunity to kind of create the strategy, create the vision, deliver the idea is huge.

[B]

We all cite the companies that have done that as the example, but very few companies actually do that, like the Nikes, Apple. These are the ones that always come up. But that's because marketing is so involved in every part of the business.

[A]

I like that. Talking of the future, what do you want to achieve next? Given all the success you've had with mischief over the last seven years. What do you want to achieve next in the next phase?

[B]

Well, I think we've narrowed it down to like, what is mischief about? What is it? And we want people to think of us as the impact agency. And that kind of goes on. Three measures. One is, one, have an impact on our client's business because why are we doing what we do? And that's to make some measurable results. And then we want to have an impact on culture. So we want stuff to be talked about and noticed and have people play it back to us without knowing we did it. It's like be out in real culture. And then the other thing is we do want to have an impact on the industry and change the way people think about how agencies need to run or what it needs to be like or what kind of environment is successful. And I think that's my biggest hope is that mischief spawned something in other people to start their own agencies. And our legacy is that we kind of ushered in a generation of a different kind of agency and a different kind of way of working. I love that.

[A]

It's funny, actually hosting our very first event we did last week, I think for the first time had that exact feeling you just described there. I suddenly realized there's almost 400 people in the room and loads of people are talking about the businesses they're going to start up, the jobs they're going to try and get, the networks they've built between them. I thought, this is like, this is creating lots more than us. This is like spawning a whole lot of things.

[B]

The reason I started, Mr. Fisk, when I was looking for a job and I was in the opportunity, after I got let go, I just thought, like I looked around, I was like, no one's having fun in this industry. Like that is really sad. There needs to be a place where people just enjoy what they do and do work that they want other people to see and that they're excited to get up every day. And we asked for advice, but one piece of advice that's really stuck with me is that your life is made up of days. And if you're not enjoying your days, what's the point? So just make sure you're excited about what you're doing every day.

[A]

And there's got to be a correlation between how much fun you're having, how happy you are, and the quality of work you end up producing. So it's a win win, isn't it?

[B]

Yeah. Yeah. I think the world can see when you're enjoying what you're doing all right.

[A]

So, talking about the future, young people starting today, entering the industry now, give me your advice to them.

[B]

A couple things I would say, and they're all kind of based off of the same thing, especially with the looming threat of AI. And again, another quote that has always stuck with me is that no one can beat you at being you. So find what makes you unique and make that shine. You know, the first place I look at when I look at a book is the About Me section. That's where you really want to put your personality and your individuality in, because that will never be algorithmed out and, you know, no one will be able to replace that. And then learn the basics before you jump to AI. Learn how to write, learn how to craft, learn strategy, and then make sure you're proficient with the latest tools. But don't use the tools as a crutch. Use them as an aid, as something

[A]

to amplify, maybe to round off. Then what's the best piece of advice that you've ever been given?

[B]

Oh, man, so many. The one I always come back to, and this is just me personally, as a coming up and trying to make something, would be that successful people do what unsuccessful people aren't willing to do. It becomes down to that, right. Whenever you should think, should I go this extra mile? Should I take this risk? Should I? You just think, like, successful people do what unsuccessful people aren't willing to do.

[A]

I love that. That's very good.

[B]

You know, I read that when I was, like, in college somewhere, just like, you know, looking through business books trying to figure out what the hell are, you know, keys to success and all that kind of stuff. And it's such like a soundbite from some motivational speaker, but it actually struck.

[A]

But it talks to an important point, which is there's a lot of work linked to success that people don't see, Right? Because they look at you and go, oh, you've been overnight success. They don't see the times you're unemployed or the times that you ran out of money, or the times that you

[B]

lost the pitch, or the times that you went five rounds to get the one thing that they see and celebrate. Yeah. Yeah.

[A]

I think most people don't realize that Scott Galloway has got a similar point where he says strategy is finding the very hardest thing possible to do. Because if it's really, really hard to do, it means no one else can do it. Right. Which is kind of a similar way of saying that. Yeah, I love that. That's very profound.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Greg, thank you, mate. It's been great to catch up. Again, congratulations on your continued success. And even since we last met, more awards for the agency in terms of most creative and innovative. So well done.

[B]

Thank you.

[A]

Keep it coming. And yeah, keep. Keep setting the bar high.

[B]

Thank you. Thank you for having me again. And let's do it in another three years.

[A]

We do. Amazing. So I hope you enjoy that episode of Uncensored CMO as much as I enjoyed making it. Now, by the way, I've got a new newsletter, so if you'd like to get my thoughts on the One Thing that I take out from each episode every week, then do subscribe to the One Thing newsletter. I'd really appreciate it. Also, I have another podcast just launched, Uncensored Renegades, with the fabulous Corey Marchisoto. She is one of the world's best CMOs. She's an absolute rock star. Every week we pick one topic, spend 20 minutes trying to fix it. So check out that it's in your feed. Uncensored Renegades. And finally, I want to give a huge thank you to my sponsor, System One. They generously provide so much support for this podcast. It would not happen without them. It's a big thank you. Thanks and lots of love to System One. I'll see you next time.

[B]

What do you enjoy reading, Greg? You mentioned you were reading books as

[A]

a youngster and you found that quote, trash.

[B]

Yeah, yeah. The people who know me know this. Like, most of the content I consume, like, at night, after work, is just like 90% of it has to do with murder, unsolved crimes.

[A]

Well, do you know, funnily, Rory Sutherland, you were recording yesterday. He said, ask Greg about his serial killer obsession.

[B]

Oh, my God, it's not the serial killer. I should probably stop saying that. That's like getting me known for something. But I love watching true crime and, like, mysteries and old crime shows. I just find it fascinating because it is a lot like what we do is like, sometimes you have an answer and you try to figure out how to get to that answer. Or sometimes you just start reading signals and you know what happened, you know, the result. You know, someone died. But how the fuck do you get from point A to point B? And that's kind of what we do is like, you know, you want to get these sales, you know, you want to create this impression. But here are all the things out there. How do you line them up? Right. But yeah, or when I read, it's just like, airport novels are trash, but every once in a while I try to like, you know, I have my favorite writers, you know, David Sedaris. I'll read anything he writes, you know, just because they're great with language and, you know, certain things. And I like books on psychology and anthropology and things like that. When I'm feeling I need a little. Little education, something more in my head besides how to, you know, solve crime. Yeah. Why do you like the trash books?

[A]

Is it just escaping?

[B]

Escaping? Yeah, it's just easier, you know, like why anybody likes some junk food, I guess. But, you know, I do think that there's something to be learned from anything. I used to go out of my way to read books that were not written for me, like chick lit, so to speak, when back in the 90s, just because I like to see how other people think and what other people are exposed to. And if it's. If it's not written for me, then that makes me more interested in it.