A (2:49)

Yeah. And presumably, like both organizations, take a much longer term view than, than lots of companies. You're not subject to the usual quarterly earnings results and, you know, how much do we sell last week?

B (3:01)

I mean, there's a bit of that just to see where you're benchmarking and making sure that there's progress being, you know, made against your, your goals. But they are taking the long view on not only brands, but on individuals. So when we talked about this, this wasn't like a you're here for a year, let's see what you can do. This is really just a longer term partnership to see how we can stabilize and rebuild Ciroc while at the same time growing and amplifying Lobo 1707. And they're providing not only the Runway, but also the strategic thought leadership and partnership to really help make that come to life. And they've given me almost full autonomy to build the team as I see fit and bring the brands to life in the way that I think is know the right approach. So they're at this stage the, you know, most incredible partners that I could have ever asked for.

A (3:46)

Well, I was intrigued by that actually because I did a, I did a joint venture, well, not a formal joint venture, but sort of virtual joint venture with PepsiCo many, many years ago. And one of the things I absolutely loved about it was the freedom because I basically took a number of brands that were at the time neglected by the, by the Britburg portfolio where I was. And we created our own team and we had ownership from end to end from, from the idea which brands were there. So I had Liptonized tea. Ok, well, people will be surprised to hear this, but Liptonized tea is massive.

B (4:15)

Globally it is massive. Yeah.

A (4:16)

But in the uk people drink their tea hot.

B (4:19)

Yep.

A (4:19)

So, so if you say to people like, you know, do you want to have a cold tea? They look at you going, well, that's crazy.

B (4:26)

Yeah.

A (4:26)

Of course, the weird thing about Lipton in particular was when people tried it, they absolutely love it.

B (4:32)

Of course.

A (4:32)

And so I got given the handover documents from Pepsi Lipton International and massive great documents going, you know, here's everything we know about it. And I spotted the issue with on page one because what they gave me was this, this advertising campaign they'd run. And it said, don't knock it till you try it.

B (4:48)

Okay.

A (4:49)

So I said to them, how much sampling did you do? And they were like, oh, no, no. This was this advertising campaign. I'm like, you just told everyone, don't knock it till you try it.

B (4:57)

And you're not even making people try it. I know, I know.

A (4:59)

So it's funny. So in terms of freedom, basically I said, all right, the only thing we're going to do now is we're just going to start with all our budget went into central London. We're just going to sample as many people as we can.

B (5:09)

Yeah.

A (5:09)

And then we grew like 20, 30% that year. Then we just expand it to outer lo, then rest the country. But the freedom, the freedom I experience is enormous.

B (5:18)

Yeah. But the irony of that is that, you know, Pepsi built their original Pepsi brand by doing the whole taste test against Coca Cola. So the fact that they didn't have that in their back pocket as a tactic to utilize for Lipton is mind boggling. Especially if the line was don't knock it till you try it. So that's a super fun story.

A (5:36)

Yeah, no, it's brilliant. But what I meant what I kind of discovered in that joint venture as well is you bring the benefit of both organizations together. Right. So in the case, that's literally what this is. Exactly. So like Lip, the brand, Unilever, Pepsi, the bottling system and go to market.

B (5:50)

Yeah, we're sort of leveraging the same concept and it's leveraging the strengths of Diageo and the strengths of Main street and my squad and really bringing that to life. So, you know, we are just a couple months into this journey, but we are beyond excited and we think there's a lot of opportunity for both Lobo 1707 and Ciroc. So more to come.

A (6:11)

Yeah. Now talking about that, of course. So the brands are in different situations, aren't they? Ciroc is more of a turnaround, rebuilding exercise. I'd love to know what your plans are specifically on Ciroc.

B (6:22)

Yeah, part of it is to try to find efficiency in how we use our dollars and really maximize all that to rebuild the brand. And the way that we're doing that is to take the context of where Ciroc used to play and moving into a new area where I think there's going to be a lot of growth. So the way that we're thinking about it right now is how do we move it from the nightclub which it was basically born out of and into an athletic club, which is sort of like what we have here. The reason why I think the athletic club works is because it's still an aspirational premium environment, but it's not necessarily rooted in this party hard until 2am it's really this idea of luxury, but still this casual participatory environment where it's socializing, community and, you know, some leisure sports all around this like 2pm to 5pm timeframe. And then it allows you to just casually shift your night into a great dinner before you go to bed, which is sort of like more of the life stage that I'm at. As opposed to the go out to the club at 10 and hit it hard until 2. Yeah.

A (7:21)

And how do you make kind of investment decisions around that? Because, you know, is that, is that down to Diageo to do that or do you, do you do that? How do you decide where to invest and how much to invest?

B (7:30)

Yeah, fortunately, we are responsible for all of that. So when it comes to investment decisions, we really just try to look at the landscape of who we're trying to reach. So, you know, we're hitting two broad consumer profiles. One that's this type of person that's call it 2535, and they're really looking to optimize their lifestyles. So whether it's that person that might be pairing, you know, a pair of Uniqlo khakis with like a really high end, you know, designer top or someone that is, you know, looking to, you know, put Ciroc into their, you know, transfusion versus your, you know, everyday vodka, we're looking for those types of folks that like to aspire for something a little more premium, but they're still conscious and they're trying to just optimize the things that matter most and not worry about everything in general. The reason why we think it's such a fun place for Ciroc is the fact that Ciroc is actually the only high end vodka that's actually made from French grapes. So it's one of those differentiators that I wasn't even aware of when I came into the business. But realizing that it's not made from potatoes, it's not made from grain, it's not made from corn, and it's made from the same, you know, ingredient that some of the best French wines are made from, really let me know that the product story has been lost over the years. And if we can dial it back into focusing on that, we have a really good opportunity to convince people that this is not only a fun brand, but it's a brand that's rooted in an amazing product.

A (8:57)

Yeah. So how much of it is changing what you've done in the past, but how much of his reinvention versus kind of continuing what happened before, have you had to sort of start from scratch with the brand and almost think it again?

B (9:09)

Pretty much we're treating it almost as if it's a startup brand within the overall portfolio. Where they landed on this idea of let's Leisure, which was the campaign that was most recently done for Ciroc, I think is in an interesting territory. So we're just evolving that to make it a little more actionable and let people know that we want them to leisure well. And for us that's being a guide and explaining a little bit more explicitly on what it looks like and what it means to leisure. Well so you know, you see all these membership clubs popping up in London and New York and in Miami and in la and it's almost getting to the point where those environments are now out of touch with a lot of people and they are exclusive. So what we're trying to build with the Ciroc Athletic Club is that sort of premium aesthetic, but making it inclusive and open to everybody and making it so it's a place where people can come in, hang out when we do these pop up events, but also just buy into the mindset of the brand. And in the same way that, you know, Corona back in the day really had that idea of like find your beach and they own that beach aesthetic, we think we can own that athletic club sort of like, you know, environment that we think was something that we see a lot of folks in this generation aspiring to, but not yet really living to, getting to live out.

A (10:25)

It reminded me a little bit actually going back to my joint venture, one of the brands I had was Gatorade, which is another funny one because of course Gatorade in the US is massive, Massive, absolutely massive. But I think, I think it's $4 billion brand or something. I can't something some crazy scale. And in the UK it's 4 million. It was like a tiny. And I remember it was the London Olympics and the entire team came over to kind of like the entire Gatorade head office team came in to see what I was up to. But in the UK we were a challenger brand of course, so we had to like, you know, we had to target it up market. We had to go to the absolute elite sports clubs and Educate them on nutrition and position the brand as being part of your kind of athletic lifestyle. Really, we really kind of targeting top end, whereas in the U.S. of course, it was, you know, $1 on the end of the aisle.

B (11:11)

I mean, it's synonymous with sports in the us. Like the idea of having that Gatorade bucket splashed on the coach at the end of a big game is sort of like part of sports culture. But in the uk, you know, having lived there for a few years, it's just a brand that is completely irrelevant and non existent. So it's an interesting opportunity in some of these big US brands and try to scale them in places like the UK completely.

A (11:33)

I mean, the funny thing was the competitor, Lucas Aid basically had the Gatorade playbook, so did all the things that Gatorade over here. So you have to sort of rethink completely rethink how you do it.

B (11:43)

Yeah.

A (11:43)

So back in the day, really early in my career, I worked on some spirit brands and had loads of fun. I have to say it was really, really kind of cool kind of environment to work in. All the heritage and the kind of in bar experience, that kind of thing. I mean, I seem to remember from then what we were trying to do broadly three things. We were trying to kind of target culture, you know, get into culture using a lot of pr, brand experience, that kind of thing. Innovation, like flavors. I mean, flavors are a great way of getting kind of, you know, getting people to try new things. And then we were obsessed about serve. I mean, everyone had like the perfect serve, didn't they? And like, you know, the ideal way of serving it kind of thing.

B (12:17)

Sure.

A (12:18)

I mean, that was kind of the playbook I was using, you know, back in the day. I just wonder from your point of view, is that what you're going to be doing?

B (12:24)

Yeah, I mean, part of those things are still relevant today. I do believe that the appeal of being in the spirits category for me was how amazing the marketing was when I was growing up. I remember looking at spirits brands and thinking that they were having the most fun and doing some of the most provocative work. To be honest though, over the last 10 years I think they've really started to become a little bit watered down and they've, you know, taken a little bit of a step back in how they market their spirits brands and even the categories at large. So I'm excited to bring a little bit more energy back into the space. On the innovation side, I mean, Ciroc is rooted in a lot of product innovation, so I actually Think we might need to simplify and scale back on how many different skus we have and how many different flavors. Flavors there are. There's probably half dozen to a dozen that really matter, and then the other ones are just sort of like new news that pop up, but then they immediately fade. So we're going to really take a look at which ones we want to emphasize over the new year. But I do think having a regional approach to how we bring the flavors to life will actually be really fun. So as an example, you know, peach does really well, and everyone has this idea of, like, Georgia and peach is just really going well together. So how do we bring that flavor to life for that specific region? While we might do something with apples, you know, up in, like, New York, I'm obviously playing off of some cliches being called the big Apple, but, you know, we'll find ways to bring the regional stories to life with each of the flavors. And then finally it comes to the serve. We're definitely going to lock in on a handful of cocktails that we think we can really win and own for both ciroc and lobos 1707. And given the fact that Lobos is, you know, the one tequila that's finished in sherry casks, I think we have an actual advantage from a product perspective to really own a few cocktails. While on the Sorak side, we not only have the core proposition of the fact that it's made from fine French grapes, but the fact that we have a few flavors to really push the cocktail and the serve strategy to new levels, I think will be really fun.

A (14:15)

Now there's a lot of talk about how drinking habits are changing and that kind of thing.

B (14:20)

I love this one.

A (14:20)

You know. You know, every. Every week there's a story about how, you know, people aren't drinking, they are drinking, their habits are changing. We what's actually going on in the category and what are the real trends that you're seeing?

B (14:31)

I would say that a lot of the data in general these days, forget about what you just mentioned, but in general, it's all driven by headlines where people don't necessarily read into the articles. They just see the headline, they click on it, get the little subtitle or subhead info, and they kind of move on. So unfortunately, the way that people consume information in news these days is just not as rigorous as it to used used to be. So when you see this headline that says Gen Z isn't drinking as much as previous generations, on one hand, half of Gen Z isn't even of age to drink. So if you poll Gen Z and you're asking them like, do you drink? The ones that are not legal are going to say, no, I don't drink. So then that's a little bit, you know, tough. If you take that group out and you say like, ignore them. The same group that's above 21 is roughly drinking in the same realm as their previous generations. The only nuance that I've seen is the fact that because of things like Covid, they're entering the workforce a little bit later than they otherwise would have. So let's pretend, and I don't know the exact data, but let's pretend. People enter the workforce around 22. This new generation might be entering the workforce at 23 or 24. And we see typical consumption happen around that time. When you enter the workforce, you have disposable income, you're doing happy hour or after hour after work drinks with like your colleagues. So it's in those moments where we're missing a little bit. But I don't think it's going to be like a long term issue. Once you cut the data and you look at the ones that are in the workforce, it's actually a little bit higher than previous generations in terms of how much they consume. And then in terms of like once they start families and get married and do all those other things in life that typically happen, you also see the stability in their habits and the consumption patterns being similar to what it was in previous generations. A couple nuances that I think the younger generation are doing that is interesting. They have this term called zebra striping where they'll do an alcoholic cocktail and then they'll alternate where they'll do a non alcoholic cocktail or beverage and then they'll switch back. So they're a little bit more conscious with how they go about doing it. And then the other nuance is back when I was growing up and I'd go to like a restaurant or a bar, I leave my credit card, I'd open up a tab. They're not doing that anymore. So they're closing out their tab every single purchase they make. So there's a little bit more of a barrier for them to order additional drinks. So those are the only main trends that I see that are nuanced from the previous generation to this generation. But other than that, you know, people are still wanting to have fun, they still want to find a place to socialize and they still want to be able to, you know, have that specialty treat, whether it's after work or on the weekends.

A (17:10)

We talked about the fact they are drinking and drinking in similar ways to before. It is what they're drinking. Has that changed? I mean, I know if I go back to my. I mean, it's quite a while now since I was in the category. But, you know, premium packaged spirits were a thing for a while. So you had kind of Bacardi Breeze or in Smirnoff Ice and then you had the rise of cider and then you had gin became a thing. And then that got replaced by vodka, then tequila.

B (17:32)

Sure.

A (17:32)

And it seemed these things seemed to go in waves. Are you seeing a kind of, you know, many of those trends?

B (17:37)

There's certainly waves, but at the same time, when you look at the category more broadly speaking, I think it's just about finding opportunities to bring your brand, regardless of which category it's in, just into cultural relevance. So on the tequila side, there is definitely a wave right now where people tend to prefer tequila. I think it was earlier this year I tried a tequila espresso martini for the first time when normally that's traditionally used with vodka. It was delicious. And so I see a lot of these trends where people are replacing signature cocktails and trying it with different spirits. You know, that age where whiskey was starting to do really well, where people were taking a little bit more of a refined approach to what was in the liquid and how to really just sip it and enjoy it and pick out the actual flavor notes, it's sort of like cascaded into other spirit categories where people are taking a little bit more of a, you know, finer approach to the spirit and the liquid itself. And at the same time, you still see a lot of innovation with the classics. So right now, the probably the hottest cocktail that I've been hearing everyone talk about on golf courses is the transfusion that is made from vodka. And that to me is like a great opportunity to push innovation and showcase that like even the most, you know, standard spirit is still having a moment when it comes to, you know, cocktail innovation. The one at US Open, the honeydews. Another example of like a vodka based cocktail cocktail that's just gaining a lot of traction. So I still think there's a lot of opportunity across all the categories.

A (19:02)

You mentioned cultural relevance and that's partly what you're known for, isn't it? And the reason you're here. How do you become culturally relevant? I mean, it's a million dollar question, I suppose, but how does that happen? It obviously doesn't happen by accident, but.

B (19:14)

It doesn't happen by accident, but it's not like a set formula that I would say, step one, do this, step two, find cultural relevance. I think it's a little bit, it's a little bit more complex than that. That would be great. But I've been fortunate to work with an amazing team throughout my career and some of the folks that have joined our company now have worked with me at Samsung, at Hulu and Disney and at TikTok. And we have a feel of what's happening in culture and just recognizing the patterns and what we might be able to leverage from an insight perspective to find our way in and bring the brands to life. So I'll give like a very high level example. You know, we all saw the wave of short form content just becoming the main way that people were just consuming content over the last few years, whether it's through TikTok or Instagram or YouTube. And in that brands were adjusting how they were marketing to consumers by just delivering punchy, short and almost like meme like content to try to just grab that attention and be in front of as many people as possible. As great as that is, most people now, when they reflect on the content that they've seen, they remember the trends, but they don't remember which brands were involved with those trends. And what I find is that, you know, the next evolution or wave isn't going to be just jumping on viral moments and trying to get a bunch of views, but how do you create these worlds that allow your brand to actually create an episodic or serialized version of what you're trying to put to life and make it just really, truly entertaining. So whether it's what Liquid Death is doing, whether it's what you're seeing some other brands testing out with Gucci, just did recently with Tiger, there's a lot of appetite for this innovation in a mix of entertainment and marketing and how those could drive cultural relevance. So those are areas that we're definitely going to be playing in. At the same time, I'm not going to abandon what's working today with short form content. And so we're going to be exploring what's working well across all the platforms and seeing how we can bring both ciroc and lobo 1707 to the forefront of culture in our way.

A (21:16)

I mean, talking about Liquid Death as well, one of my favorite Mike Cesario quotes is, you know, your advert is not competing with other adverts, it's competing with other forms of entertainment. Yeah, they're such a good role model of that exact principle, aren't they? Of making content that people want to consume, not forcing it onto them.

B (21:32)

Without a doubt. And I'd say there's many. Mike Society also, if you want to have a Spicy debate on LinkedIn, you can catch him in comments. Just like calling out big brands or other folks and what they're doing and why it's easy for them. But why a small brand like Liquid Death and as a challenger brand have such a harder time doing it, but they just continue to do it well, they're consistent and they have this level of irreverence that really speaks to what the brand stands for. And at the same time, it's a great product with a great message, you know, with the death to Plastic. So it's a brand that we are excited to, you know, keep a watch on and, you know, hopefully do something with down the road.

A (22:08)

I mean, I mean, I'm a massive fan of Liquid Death, but one of the reasons I love them is because they what they've achieved on a very small budget.

B (22:15)

Yeah.

A (22:16)

Up against some very big competitors. But it's kind of, in a way, I guess, similar to what you're doing, because what they've done is taken on like Coke and Pepsi that. That machine that, you know, they own. They own most of the stores, don't they, in terms of route to market. Yeah. And yet Liquid Death have found a way to compete with them and beat them by being more entertaining, more innovative, more single minded.

B (22:35)

Even if you have the distribution channels kind of on lock. I think having consumers come in and ask for your product time and time again is a way in. And it's something that we're thinking about on our end. Like, how do I get people to come in, whether it's to a bar or restaurant or into a retail chain and ask for our specific products. That's a huge challenge. And at the same time, you know, if you take the Liquid Death approach, it is definitely an opportunity for other brands to look at that case study and see how you can focus on what drives true value for the audience and treat them as equals and not as people that you just need to sell to. And the more that we can create entertainment at scale that is relevant in culture and brings our products along for the ride, I think we'll be in a great place to really capitalize on that approach because at the end of the day, the brands that see themselves as entertainment companies that happen to have a product that fuels the growth of that entertainment channel tend to do a lot better than the brands that still think the world is won by 30 second spots that are rammed down people's throats in commercial breaks and are trying to push a product that people actually don't necessarily want. So fortunately, you know, we are all as in like the mics of the world and me and other folks that are contemporaries, we know how the audience is now looking at content and we've generally had a great amount of success in marketing to them in a way that doesn't feel like we're marketing to them.

A (24:09)

Yeah. And what's the role of like celebrities and influencers? Because this is a quite, I know it's quite an American thing because in the uk I can't name a single celebrity kind of backed drinks brand. I mean, the only one that comes to mind which is quite amusing is Ricky Gervais with his Dutch barn, which I just think is hilarious. But even that seems to be almost a parody on the meme.

B (24:28)

But, but are you saying like celebrity owned brand?

A (24:31)

Well, the role, the role of celebrities and influencers, even as ambassadors or as involved in brands seems to be something that is well developed over here.

B (24:39)

Oh, but like what are David Beckham and Stella Artois? Yeah, and then you have.

A (24:43)

Although that's here. That's interestingly, that's. That's not in the uk.

B (24:46)

They don't show that.

A (24:47)

No, no, no, no, that's here.

B (24:49)

Tom Holland and his Non Alk beer brand. Is that in the uk?

A (24:54)

I'm trying to think. I can't think of that.

B (24:56)

Oh, really?

A (24:57)

Yeah, it's just something I notice here. Is that like the, is that just.

B (25:00)

This category or is it as a whole?

A (25:02)

I think probably particularly this category.

B (25:05)

Okay.

A (25:05)

Particularly drinks and you got Ryan Reynolds, obviously the aviation gin. Right, that's, that's a, that's a very classic one that, you know, a lot of people have heard of, but I can't think of that outside the US that existing as much.

B (25:15)

I mean, yeah, that could be a US thing, generally speaking. And not just in the spirit space. Obviously there's been a lot of celebrity tequilas. It's a lot of celebrity spirits that have just been popping up. But at the same time, I think celebrity culture in the US is just so much bigger than in places like the uk. I think the amount of exposure they have, you know, to their audiences, whether it's through television, film and now in like, you know, advertising. Because there was a period of time where it was almost looked down upon for some of the biggest celebrities to be pushing any product. Like they would only be pushing their, you know, TV shows and their films. But we've, you know, sort of evolved as a society to this place where the new modern day celebrity is also this entrepreneur who's had this massive exit. So I think a lot of celebrities have now entered that space a little bit more willingly, where they're not only like the face or the spokesperson, but they're actually launching their own brands. I think, as we see that happen more, the US is sort of just primed to capitalize on it because of the celebrity culture and how big these audiences are and how rabid the fan base is of so many of them. So that could be less of a spirits thing and more of just like a general society.

A (26:25)

Now think about, you've got Beats People by Dre. That's a. That's a huge example. Selena Gomez has done Rare Beauty. So, yeah, there's. Yeah, there are. You're right, it's not just spirits at all.

B (26:35)

Yeah, I mean, that's just been a thing for quite some time. And, you know, luckily we're working on the Main street side with a group that basically incubated and brought to life Beats by Dre. So there's a lot of synergy with what was done there and applying it to, like, what we're building now. So, yeah, I'm excited to take the learnings from, you know, what's worked with some of these celebrity pairings, but also recognize that celebrities aren't like a guaranteed lever of success when you're building a brand. Like, it still relies heavily on how good the product is, and if the quality is there, people will come back. And then two, you don't want it to be only known for being attached to, like, a single set of celebrities because you never know what could happen. And, you know, in my case, I'm really focused on the community and less on the individual celebrity.

A (27:17)

I want to move on, if I could, to talk as well, a little bit about your personal brand. I noticed because you also invest a little bit in yourself, don't you, in terms of building a personal brand?

B (27:26)

Yeah.

A (27:26)

I was intrigued to know. Is that a conscious thing that you've decided to do?

B (27:29)

Yeah.

A (27:30)

All your career?

B (27:31)

Not all my career. It came in sort of like waves. And like most people, you tend to push more on your personal brand when it suits you.

A (27:41)

Yeah.

B (27:41)

And typically that's when people are looking for a new role or they're on the market for a new job. And it's almost become too obvious on LinkedIn when someone just starts pushing out a bunch of content and then they find that job and then they're quick, quiet for like two years and then all of a sudden they start ramping up their content again. It's almost as if they were looking for a new job. So if you were just to track people's behaviors on LinkedIn, you could basically find out when they're unhappy or when they're happy with the job. And what I realized is, you know, it's, it's better to be consistent, it's better to provide a point of view on things like campaigns. And I don't necessarily just talk about the work that our team does because I think that'd be too self serving. But I do feel that the opportunity for marketers as a whole or leaders to just discuss openly campaigns that we are excited about or things that we see out there and provide our point of view and our perspective will just help elevate the craft overall. And I think having these discussions, like sometimes I'll put something out on LinkedIn that I don't fully believe in, but I want to see if it'll provoke some thoughts and perspective from other folks. So I recently did a post that kind of pitted OpenAI's campaign against cloud and Anthropic's campaign. And it's less about trying to tell people I like one and this is the better one, but more so to see like there's two different ways in to tackle the same problem. What does everyone think about it and how do we, you know, as marketers consider the different approaches and what works? And I think having that discussion is one healthy, it provides better thinking and then it makes our teams a little bit more, you know, innovative and better off. I even set up my team to try to tell them I don't want you to Only be on LinkedIn when you're looking for a job as well. So I'm encouraging the whole leadership team to start becoming thought leaders because one, you'll have a platform to then talk about our brands and what we do well and the work that we do that I think is fun and exciting to talk about. But at the same time, I want to invest in you as an individual and make sure that you're set up not only within this company but for other things that might be opportunities down the road. So I've taken a very different stance from my time at TikTok where I was doing nothing on the personal branding side, to now thinking about it more consciously and encouraging not only my team but also my like peers and colleagues to try to like, think about personal branding a little bit different as well.

A (30:00)

That's really. That's really smart advice. In my. In my System One job, we do the same things. We encourage people to, you know, post on LinkedIn and then every now and then talk about, you know, what we're. What we're launching or what we're producing. But you're quite right. If you talk about things in general, you know, provide some thought leadership, and then you have the, you know, you earn yourself the right to, you know, then drop in a comment about what you're doing.

B (30:21)

And again, like, from our CFO to our head of creative to our strategist and so on and so forth, they all have great perspectives, and I would love for them to share those a little bit more. Not about just our work, but about the industry overall, because they might have opportunities to be on various podcasts and then be able to talk about our brands in the way that I have been able to do so. So I'm a huge proponent for doing that.

A (30:41)

Yeah, it's funny, actually. Part of the reason I have a podcast, actually, because you create value, like conversations like this, and then people will then discover what I do through this conversation, and then they'll. Eventually, they'll just get. I'll just get a direct mail going, oh, can we talk about using System One, which is. Which is my day job. We'd like to use System One, please. And then I've just realized that I've marketed myself without even just by having great conversations.

B (31:04)

That's the new way of doing things. Right. So as we talked about before, you're providing value through entertainment and, you know, information, slash, education. And in doing so, you're opening up a whole stream that allows your company and what you do with System One to be able to, like, find those opportunities. Like, that's the future of marketing. It's. It's not just telling people System One is the best, but having a meaningful conversation, having people realize that System One is allowing you to be able to bring this to the life. That's sort of how we're looking at it, too.

A (31:30)

I couldn't agree more. It's funny, actually, because you're exactly right. You said we, you know, I could have put in five years worth of daily adverts going, you know, System One is the best ad testing platform in the country, you know, in the world, or whatever. Or compare that to kind of creating valuable conversations. Valuable, you know, conversations like this that people will learn from, want to listen to, and then they discover System One as A result of that. And then I easily tell you which one of those will, you know, work better.

B (31:54)

Yeah, of course.

A (31:56)

What advice would you give? Obviously, you've been a successful cmo. You've won lots of awards. You've been Forbes most influential, Forbes most entrepreneurial. What advice would you give to somebody that's kind of thinking about this kind of career in terms of what does it take to be a really successful cmo?

B (32:13)

My answer would change depending on the level that they're at. But one of the things that I've uncovered more recently is I don't think people who enter the world of marketing aim high enough. And I think most people see the end game being the CMO job for the company that they're excited about. You know, whether it's a childhood fantasy to go work for Disney or Nike or Apple or whatever it might be. But I find that a lot of the top executives, whether they're presidents or CEOs, tend to be in the CFO to CEO or COO to CEO realm because a lot of CMOs have never pictured themselves to become presidents or CEOs, and they tend to think of their journey ending at that CMO level and then just going to different companies at that same level. So one piece of advice I would say is for marketers to not aim low. I think that some of the best CEOs, including ones that I've worked for, were CMOs that have been able to transcend that. That level and really guide the companies into a world that is built on the brands and has a foundation rooted in, you know, marketing at scale. So that's probably the biggest thing that's top of mind as far as, like, people who are just entering the workforce. I find marketing to be one of the most exciting places to play because on one hand, you have influence over consumers and you're able to help them make decisions and things that might seem like typical everyday life decisions, but at the same time, like the marketing role, especially CMO role, has been changing over the last few years, where you're not just doing an ad campaign for the super bowl, you're actually covering a lot more on the commercial side and you're covering a lot more on the broader business side and the strategy side. And I think, you know, as marketers, you know, used to be just focused on advertising and creative. We're now pushed to do so much more for the business that some of the best marketers are ones that are grounded in knowing how to dissect data, knowing how to read the P&L. Knowing how to bring the business, the commercial lens into what they do effectively. So I would just say for people coming into that space, definitely be more well rounded. Don't just think of your role as being a purely creative role. And also like find ways to learn from your counterparts and your peers. Peers. Because as you move up, the knowledge that you have on the business as a whole and following where the money comes in from and where it goes out from is going to be all the difference in the world.

A (34:39)

Yeah, I love that advice. I love starting with not limiting yourself as well. And actually most of most successful people I've met have dreamed, had crazy dreams in terms of what might be possible. The world they want to create, the brand, inventing the brands they wish existed, you know, all that kind of thing. And we're so limited by our own imagination sometimes of what's possible.

B (34:59)

Yeah.

A (35:00)

And then the other thing as well that struck me as you talk there is that being successful at the very top of a business like a CEO is a very different skill set to what might make you successful as a, as a junior brand manager. Right.

B (35:10)

Yeah.

A (35:11)

And people need to be thinking ahead, thinking about how do I get the experience to be a game changing CEO one day.

B (35:17)

I've been fortunate enough to work for CMOs that have made that leap and are now some of the most successful CEOs. So they've provided that blueprint and that roadmap for me and a bunch of my peers. So, you know, we're now no longer satisfied with just being at the CMO level, which is an incredible place to be. We're now looking at, you know, what it takes to become a president or CEO and how to like really run a business from top to bottom. And I think having a bit of that exposure just makes me realize how actually equipped CMOs are to take that leap. They just haven't really cross that mental divide where they don't think that job is meant for them. And then that's where I would just encourage more CMOs to try to consider that top spot.

A (35:57)

Yeah, I mean, this is actually one of the things I was so looking forward to with this conversation is if you, if you step back a minute and go, you're in a position where Diageo have got together with Main street advisors to create a joint venture with two really, really cool, exciting spirits brands with huge global potential. That is an incredible scenario to find yourself in, to be right at the epicenter of that.

B (36:21)

Yeah, I mean, I couldn't have asked for a better situation. To be in. It's what's one of the only jobs that convinced me to move back to the US to take. You know, we were very content living in London, enjoying everything there. My kids picked up British accents like it was truly one of the best chapters of our lives. But this was an opportunity I could not say no to. So when they presented it and they walked through what the ambition was and what we're looking to build, build, and the fact that the role was, you know, beyond just the CMO role, it was certainly one that made me realize that this is worth coming back to the US for. And it's also been, you know, such a joy to be able to work with some of the best across both sides, whether it's on the Diageo side or on the Main street side. So, yeah, very fortunate and excited to see what comes out next.

A (37:06)

Now, talking about investment as well, you're an investor yourself, aren't you? You've invested in a few businesses, including Liquid. Yes, of course, early on. What do you look for as an investor?

B (37:17)

Oh, that's a fun question. I am less driven by the metrics that I think a lot of other folks are looking at. I try to look at brands that I think I can provide some value in that allows them to have a competitive advantage that is less about the product. Because at the end of the day, like Liquid Death, when it started was just water, but the brand itself was bringing something to life that I thought was exciting and it was something that I felt I could bring some value in because we all at the time knew how to help build and grow brands. Now as I've like become a little bit more sophisticated, so, you know, investing in brands like Liquid Death and Away Travel and Olipop, I'm now looking at the next wave of things. So we invested recently in a humanoid robotics company that focuses on taking AI and developing it into hardware that can actually do functions and tasks that are tough in certain situations. And those came about because there is a little bit of like a commodity driven approach to AI and humanoid robotics. So I do think that my expertise in brand building could lend itself to helping one of these actually differentiate itself from the pack. And that's why, you know, we made an investment in that one. That one specifically is called Apptronic. But in general, I just try to find the brands that are willing to take a little bit more of a risk and lean into like what consumers are actually looking for. And the ones that are having fun with their brands are the ones that I tend to gravitate towards. I'm less driven by, you know, what the financial incentives are or how they're breaking down their general, like, you know, P and L. I really just think about, like, which brands are willing to have fun and do something exciting, because those are the ones that I would tend to buy, which means I think other people would too.

A (38:57)

I'm sure, I'm sure I saw some creative somewhere saying that there's a strong correlation between how much fun you have on a brief and how good the work is. Which makes sense, doesn't it? Because when you're having fun, it's like that's, that's when creativity is kind of released.

B (39:12)

Yeah. And if you just take that analogy to your question about investing like we were looking at, I wouldn't call an investment at the time. I met a couple of folks, guys named Chike and Cootie, who had 21 years worth of footage of Kanye west from before he was famous till almost near present day. And when they visited my office at Hulu, they basically took out these Harvest hard drives and they just ran through footage of when Kanye wasn't even famous. He was just sitting on the porch of his mom's house talking about how one day he was gonna get his mom a really nice house. I remember looking at that footage and thinking to myself, like, what are you gonna do with all this footage? And they were, they were looking at me like, well, that's why we came here. We were told that you would know what to do with all this footage. And before they left that, you know, meeting, I remember going to the CEO at the time of Hulu who said, this is amazing. Go talk to the head of Unscripted. They actually passed on taking that documentary and making it. So instead of just saying no, I immediately called them and said, hulu passed, but I have permission from the CEO to go do this myself. So what ended up being a no ended up being one of my first investments that ended up becoming the documentary called Genius, which is now on Netflix. And that three part film series, which was Emmy nominated, came out of this relationship with a couple of folks that were just looking to have some help. And then me immediately calling some of my close friends to say, there's no way I could fund this whole thing by myself. Do you want to come on this, like, adventure? And them immediately saying yes. We pulled our money together because it was a fun project. We saw the opportunity and then we eventually sold it to Netflix. So things like that are opportunities that you can't plan for. But when they come about and you can see the fun in it, you can see the opportunity and you have a project that you can help people make something incredible, I think that's when, you know, it gets a yes from us.

A (40:58)

There's a nice link back, actually, to personal brand, because the more you build your personal brand, the more you put yourselves in the room where those conversations happen and you give yourself the option to, you know, take a chance and get the backing as well.

B (41:10)

Yeah, as well. Yeah. Like, I never would have had that opportunity if three people didn't tell Cootie and Cheeky, go talk to Nick Tran. And I was able to have them say, go talk to Nick Tran because of the personal brand that I developed. So, again, to your point, it's all full circle, which is why I encourage my team and everyone around me to just focus on building that. Because no matter where you go in any company you're at, you are still going to be your brand. And people sometimes think that they're the titles that they have. When I don't think that's the case anymore, I think, you know, in the workforce, you no longer have people that are staying at a company 25, 30 years and, you know, getting their gold Rolex on their way out. I think you're getting to a point now where your personal brand is more than your title, and the better that you are able to be build that, the more opportunities that you have and the more you're able to work on and help the companies that you're eventually with. So that's something I think everyone should take a little bit more stock in.

A (42:01)

Well, maybe to wrap up, we should talk AI as well. So what did you think about the ChatGPT campaign? Because I thought it was very fascinating that they've lent heavily into the human story. Even the app was produced On, I think, 35 millimeter film as well, which I thought was deeply ironic.

B (42:17)

Yeah, I think it's not as ironic because on one hand you have a lot of competing platforms, and the. The juxtaposition that I saw immediately was what Claude was doing from the anthropic side and then what ChatGPT was doing with the OpenAI side. And there's numerous ways to win, and I think each of them found an appropriate swim lane for them, because when I looked at Claude, it felt like it's for the more seasoned expert and someone who knows how to do some sort of development and has some capacity to build out their own thing. So the way that the. The work was structured was Kind of around it being smarter, as in the AI and helping you do things more efficiently. And even when you're resting, it's still kind of working behind the scenes. I think ChatGPT was really going towards the everyday casual user who might not know anything about coding or how it works behind the scenes, but they just want to answer Life's basic questions. And it was more of a, you know, approach to like, instead of just searching it on the Internet, ask ChatGPT a very simple question and we'll give you that answer straight away. So finding opportunities to bring the everyday moments where you want to ask, you know, the Internet a question and having ChatGPT own that lane. Whereas Cloud was really seemingly owning the slightly more advanced. Almost like what Apple was doing for creatives versus it being for everybody. I felt like that's where they were both going, which is why I thought both were good and both were viable and they're just hitting a completely different audience, which I think is a good place for them to each individually play.

A (43:47)

Yeah, the other interesting thing I thought with the ChatGPT work was because we've been measuring AI generated or AI themed advertising at System 1 for a while now and what we notice is twice the amount of negative emotions, mainly fear. So actually even talking about AI, people start to associate, I'm going to lose my job and things like this. And I thought what was clever about ChatGPT is they positioned it in a very human, everyday, friendly, solving life's everyday problems type way, which takes all the barriers down to, you know, there's still.

B (44:18)

Skeptics like there are still, yeah, that friend AI company putting up posters in New York on the subways and people sort of like, you know, putting graffiti and putting their comments against it. I don't think that's going to change. I mean, I remember when Social was first starting, there was a lot of pushback on Social. And how are you going to let people just throw up content that's unfiltered on these platforms? And how are you going to gate all that? Like, we're so used to having one way messages pushed out there. That's all filtered by the FTC and whoever else it might be. And now you're letting people just throw whatever they want on there. So the same initial backlash we saw in Social, I'm still seeing with AI now. And even if you go back further when, you know, people were just starting to advertise on tv, there was still all this backlash, like, are you able to put that on tv? Which is like A visual, you know, medium and things that you used to be able to have on the radio, you can't just do on. So it's the same situation that we're in. At the end of the day, I still think we're just scratching the surface on, you know, forget efficiency, the creativity and innovation that'll come out of this AI wave that'll help marketers do things in a much more interesting manner. It'll be leaps and bounds more relevant to people than they realize now. Like, I think the fear is still going to be there, just like I still have family members that won't ever be on social media because they're still afraid of it, even though it's now pretty ubiquitous. I think we'll have that same issue where some people will still be afraid of AI, but once it's integrated into your life in a very seamless manner, like you were just asking Google earlier a simple question like that's just going to be the new norm.

A (45:50)

Yeah, I mean, talk about social media. So we seem to getting to quite a mature point. Yeah, I mean met his announcement the other in the UK at least anyway, you have to choose between personalized ads or subscription, which is quite an advanced place to be, isn't it? Basically you're saying we're either going to target, you know, you very precisely or you're going to pay us to not be targeted. Yeah, which is quite a step. That's a very. So do you think we're seeing the kind of social media peak or I.

B (46:17)

Called this idea peak social maybe about a year ago and I've been talking about it here and there, but a couple things that will make that happen more, I guess like sooner than later. The number of content that types that are now on the platforms that are generated from AI that are indistinguishable from real content, I think is going to make people realize that the content there is becoming less relevant for them, even though it seems like it's relevant to them. So I don't know if you've seen some of these accounts that are actually like pure digital AI folks, but they look like influencers Once you have enough of those at scale because they're so cheap to spin up, you're going to have a lot of people that are now saying, like, wait, I used to trust brands and then I stopped trusting brands. I trust strangers who were talking about these brands. But now you have these AI avatars that are talking about the brands, but they're actually made by the brands to then talk about the brands. So there's going to be this huge wave of distrust that I think people are going to revert back to known entities. So it won't be the social media profiles or influencers. I think it'll go back to like, well who do I trust in these spaces? If I am curious or interested in fashion, I'm going to trust this fashion designer that knows what they're talking about. So people who have authority, people who have the credibility to talk about those areas, I think that's where it'll go back to. So my, you know, general thesis is as much as it's going to be still relevant over the next couple years to work with social media influencers and those folks, I still want to ground our business to be a little bit longer lasting and future proof and start working with folks that are really credible in the spaces that we want to play, whether it's sports, music, fashion, spirits, whatever it might be and make sure that we're tapping into them. Because as people start to become jaded by the fake accounts, they're going to be well I know this person's real and I know what they talk about and I know what they're experts in so I'll trust them more than a random avatar that could be fake. So I think we're already hitting that point of peak social where there might be this disaggregation of the platforms where you won't have just TikTok or Instagram, you might have category specific versions of that where people want to play and like spend their time on versus it being on the big aggregate level.

A (48:32)

It's a little bit like the COVID where we all had to go online suddenly and then post Covid. I remember there was a boom in events and live experiences.

B (48:40)

There still is right now.

A (48:41)

It's still going on, isn't it? It's like we almost over not overreacted but the bounce back from COVID was that we all want to go to concerts, we want to meet in the pub, you know, and we all want to have in real life meetings and go to events and that kind of thing.

B (48:53)

That's just the nature of things though, I think it all comes in waves and cycles and whenever you over index too far on one side it goes goes back the other side and we've had, we have seen this whole like yearning for a digital detox for some time now and it's why Live Nation's numbers have never been stronger. It's why people are very excited to be invited to an in real life event. I don't think anyone has gone to a virtual meetup in the last, like, 12 to 18 months when that used to be, like, the norm. And again, I no knock on these products, but, like, during that peak phase of, like, Covid, when everyone thought we were going to be living behind VR goggles and, like, living our lives through, you know, the lenses of technology, I see that as being, like, very much now, in contrast to those moments where, you know, Meta changed its name because they thought the Metaverse was going to be a thing, and now we're seeing, like, well, I don't really want to play in the matters. I want to go meet people in real life and go hang out and actually, you know, have that cocktail and socialize and play pickleball or. Or whatever it might be like. I see that being a lot more of the trend that will happen over the next few years.

A (49:56)

Absolutely. And a great place to have a Ciroc vodka.

B (49:59)

Yes. Or lobos. 1707.

A (50:03)

Nick, thank you so much, mate. Thank you so much. Been great to catch up and congratulations on what you're doing. Thank you. It's wildly exciting and wish you all the very best.

B (50:10)

Thank you so much.

A (50:11)

Thank you very much for listening or watching Uncensored cmo. I hope you enjoyed that. If you did, please do hit the subscribe button wherever you get your podcast. If you're watching, hit subscribe there as well. I'd also love to get a review. Reviews make a big difference on other people discovering the show. So please do leave a review wherever you get your podcast. If you want to contact me, you can do. I'm over on XcensorCMO or on LinkedIn where I'm under my own name, John Evans. Thanks for listening and watching. I'll see you next time. So I'm experimenting with a new concept where after I meet each guest, I'm gonna. I'm gonna write a newsletter. It's gonna be called the One Thing. And it's like, if you only take one thing out of this conversation, this is it.

B (50:56)

I mean, I still. I personally believe you have a lot of marketers that watch this, I assume. Yes.

A (51:01)

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

B (51:02)

Marketers need to aim higher. Like, I don't think the journey ends at the CMO that spawn at the CMO office. I think everyone assumes that's the. That's where the journey ends. And that's just. It should be, you know, not the beginning, but, like, that should. That shouldn't be the end.

A (51:17)

Yeah.

B (51:17)

All right. So something along those lines would be a Good. One thing.

A (51:20)

That's perfect. That's spot. Thank you.

B (51:22)

I was at the summit, I think, two weeks ago with Seth.

A (51:25)

Yeah.

B (51:25)

Yeah, with Seth. Two weeks ago. And the number of folks in that room who are incredibly talented leaders, who've never seen themselves. Themselves as a CEO or president is uncanny. Like, I just started asking that's. This is where this thought came about in my head, because I stepped into this president role so young, just took a president role at eos, and everyone was just like, I never even thought about looking at that. And then I remember asking some of my contemporaries, like, what do you mean? They're like, well, once I hit cmo, I kind of saw, like, that's the end of the journey. It's just a matter of which company I wanted to be CMO for. And I was like, you never thought about stepping into a CEO or president role? They're like, never. And it wasn't just like one or two. It was almost everybody in that room who are incredibly talented. They just never thought about that. And then once we started saying, like, well, we stepped into this role and Brian Nichols stepped in the CEO of Starbucks role, and so is that. They're like, huh, I should think about doing that as my next step, which is a great thing that I think we should expose in the. To the community.