How Guinness became No.1, the power of sporting partnerships & the “Diageo way” to build brands - Grainne Wafer

Summary

Podcast Summary: Uncensored CMO – "How Guinness Became No.1, the Power of Sporting Partnerships & the 'Diageo Way' to Build Brands" featuring Grainne Wafer

Podcast Information:

• Title: Uncensored CMO
• Host: Jon Evans
• Guest: Grainne Wafer, Global Category Director at Diageo for Beer, Vodka, and Spirits
• Release Date: July 16, 2025

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1. Introduction and Partnership with NBCUniversal (00:00 - 01:19)

Jon Evans introduces the episode, highlighting its collaboration with NBCUniversal to focus on Chief Marketing Officers (CMOs) leveraging sports to transform their brands. This episode features Grainne Wafer, who discusses Diageo's strategies with Guinness.

Notable Quote:

• John Evans [00:07]: "We are partnering with our very good friends NBCUniversal to do a special series focusing on CMOs that have used the game-changing power of sport to transform their brand."

2. Current Trends in the Alcohol Industry (01:19 - 03:25)

Grainne Wafer outlines key trends affecting the alcohol sector:

• Socialization Shifts: Rise in moderation and alternatives like non-alcoholic options and "zebra striping" (mixing alcoholic and non-alcoholic drinks).
• Experience-Driven Consumption: Consumers seek multifaceted experiences combining sports, music, food, and more.
• Premiumization: Despite economic constraints, there's a continued preference for premium products, aligning with Diageo's portfolio.
• Media Fragmentation: Increasing reliance on digital and social media as traditional media continues to fragment.

Notable Quotes:

• Grainne Wafer [01:33]: "There’s a big trend towards sort of socializing in a very different way... people expect to find, you know, sports and music and entertainment and food and everything all in one sort of evening."
• John Evans [02:50]: "I’ve worked in soft drinks... the market kind of polarizes that. People actually when they’re tightening their belts do want to spend money at home typically, but on more premium."

3. Diageo’s Diverse Brand Portfolio (03:25 - 05:20)

Grainne discusses managing a broad portfolio that includes flagship brands like Guinness, Smirnoff, and Bailey's, alongside challenger brands such as Ketel One and Venturo. She emphasizes different marketing approaches for established versus emerging brands, highlighting strategies like building relationships with bartenders for Ketel One and leveraging global reach for Smirnoff.

Notable Quotes:

• Grainne Wafer [03:35]: "We have a mix of different brands across that and different types of business models and marketing models that goes alongside that as well."
• John Evans [05:01]: "How do you make the decision between those?... Given your role is very broad, how do you make those kind of portfolios?"

4. Strategic Portfolio Management with Data-Driven Tools (05:20 - 07:35)

Diageo utilizes a data-driven tool named Catalyst to map and optimize their portfolio based on factors like profit pool, growth potential, and return on investment. Grainne explains how Catalyst aids in reallocating resources effectively, ensuring strategic investments in brands at various life cycle stages.

Notable Quotes:

• Grainne Wafer [05:20]: "We have an amazing data-led tool called Catalyst, which basically allows us to use data to map portfolio and optimize our choices."
• John Evans [05:01]: "How do you make the decision between those?... how do you make those kind of portfolios?"

5. Guinness: A Distinctive Brand Strategy (07:35 - 11:31)

Grainne addresses rumors about Guinness being sold, which were dispelled by Diageo's CFO. She elaborates on Guinness's unique positioning within Diageo, behaving similarly to a spirits brand with high salience and distinctiveness. The brand boasts a 60% share of talkability in Great Britain, reinforcing its market dominance.

Notable Quotes:

• Grainne Wafer [06:44]: "I think our CFO came out and categorically said that was the case. So put to bed."
• Grainne Wafer [07:35]: "Guinness is highly distinctive, it has really strong meaning... it's the most talked about brand in its category."

6. Innovation and Product Development: Guinness Zero and Nitrosurge (11:31 - 16:26)

Grainne highlights Diageo's innovative products like Guinness Zero, a non-alcoholic variant maintaining the authentic taste of Guinness, and Nitrosurge, a plug-and-play system enhancing Guinness's distribution without traditional keg setups. These innovations responded to consumer demands for quality and convenience, especially highlighted during the COVID-19 pandemic.

Notable Quotes:

• Grainne Wafer [12:30]: "The brewers are just amazing... delivering a Guinness that... tastes pretty much identical to Guinness with alcohol."
• Grainne Wafer [15:39]: "We moved from signing the deal to within 90 days activating it in over 80 countries."

7. Sponsorship and Activation: Expanding into Football (16:26 - 21:06)

Transitioning from a long-standing association with rugby, Diageo expanded Guinness's sponsorship into the English Premier League to achieve global reach. Grainne discusses the rapid activation of this partnership, including large-scale campaigns and the introduction of Guinnessero, which has significantly boosted Guinness's consumption during football events.

Notable Quotes:

• Grainne Wafer [14:29]: "Premier League property was available, we jumped at the opportunity because it gives us huge global scale and reach, over 2 billion viewers."
• Grainne Wafer [16:26]: "It is having an impact. It’s a big property. It gives us a lot of consumption moments... which is like very strong link with volume."

8. Promoting Women's Rugby and Inclusivity (21:06 - 23:26)

Diageo's commitment to inclusivity is showcased through sponsoring the Women's Six Nations and initiatives like the first-ever soft ground football rugby boot designed for women. Innovations like Field of Vision enhance accessibility for visually impaired fans, reflecting Diageo's dedication to making sports inclusive.

Notable Quotes:

• Grainne Wafer [20:23]: "It’s the first time ever at games... people who are visually impaired could follow... the action that was going on."
• Grainne Wafer [21:06]: "We won’t settle until... we've achieved the same things in partnership with the unions for women’s rugby as we have for men."

9. Measuring Marketing Effectiveness (23:26 - 26:37)

Grainne emphasizes the use of Catalyst to evaluate marketing ROI, allowing Diageo to track the impact of sponsorships and media spend accurately. She advocates for balancing proven growth drivers with experimental initiatives to foster innovation and gather valuable consumer insights.

Notable Quotes:

• Grainne Wafer [22:04]: "We do use Catalyst and have literally data at our fingerprint that shows the return on investment of... most of our growth drivers."
• Grainne Wafer [23:17]: "Make room for experiments and bravery... something you just say, actually this is something we're just going to do and we don't know yet."

10. The 'Diageo Way' and Leadership in Marketing (26:37 - 31:46)

Grainne delves into Diageo's unique brand-building philosophy, emphasizing that all 30,000 employees are brand builders. The company prioritizes simplification, evidence-based results, and ensuring marketing acts as a core business lever. She shares tips for successful marketing leadership, including maintaining curiosity, orchestrating large-scale interventions, and treating the organization as interconnected consumers.

Notable Quotes:

• Grainne Wafer [28:01]: "Brand building is very much at the heart of it and all the way through the organization and in every function right up to board level."
• Grainne Wafer [31:46]: "Never lose your curiosity... understanding how to orchestrate for big outcomes... be a business leader, total business."

11. Closing Remarks and Future Outlook (31:46 - End)

The conversation concludes with Grainne celebrating the successes of brands like Bailey's, which saw a 40% growth after repositioning as a treat brand. She underscores ongoing innovations and the importance of extending brand relevance throughout the year. Both host and guest express optimism for future collaborations and continued brand growth.

Notable Quotes:

• Grainne Wafer [24:05]: "Bailey's is now 40% bigger than it was before that strategy took off."
• John Evans [34:22]: "Congratulations on all top results and hopefully we'll bump into each other later."

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Key Takeaways:

• Data-Driven Strategies: Utilizing tools like Catalyst to inform portfolio management and marketing spend.
• Brand Distinctiveness: Maintaining high salience and uniqueness to drive consumer engagement.
• Innovation: Continuously developing products that meet evolving consumer demands.
• Inclusive Sponsorships: Expanding into diverse sports and promoting inclusivity.
• Effective Leadership: Emphasizing curiosity, simplification, and organizational integration in marketing roles.

This episode provides invaluable insights into how Diageo, under Grainne Wafer's leadership, leverages sports partnerships and innovative strategies to elevate brands like Guinness to market dominance.

Transcript

[Gronja Wafer]

Foreign.

[John Evans]

Ladies and gentlemen, welcome to the uncensored cmo. Now in this special series, we are partnering with our very good friends NBCUniversal to do a special series focusing on CMOs that have used the game changing power of sport to transform their brand. Now, hopefully you caught our episode last week with Corey Marchisotto from Elf. And this week we have Gronja Wafer who's the global category director at Diageo for beer, vodka and spirits. Now she's here to talk about in particular how Guinness have used the power of sport to transform their brand over the last few years. Lots of really exciting things they've done on the brand and I know you're going to love hearing all about it. Here it is. Gronja, welcome to the show.

[Gronja Wafer]

Thank you so much, John. Pleasure to be here. It's fabulous to be.

[John Evans]

It's a great place, isn't it, to hang out and talk about what we're up to.

[Gronja Wafer]

It is, it is. And I was just saying earlier it's such a place for young know serendipitous connections as well. So looking forward to meeting new people over the course of the year.

[John Evans]

It's great. I often describe it to people who haven't been is a bit like LinkedIn in real life.

[Gronja Wafer]

100%.

[John Evans]

100% spot someone walking down the quasi. I know you.

[Gronja Wafer]

Don't I know you. I've seen that. Oh yeah, I know exactly who you are. And then obviously, you know, we do a lot of panels and discussions. You get to meet people through that and think about how you can collaborate. So yeah, it's a great idea and.

[John Evans]

You'Ve got a pretty exciting role heading up a large portfolio of alcohol brands, for example, fascinated to know kind of what the trends are out there in the kind of world of alcohol and what you're seeing around the world. And what should we be paying attention to?

[Gronja Wafer]

Well, I think first of all there's a big trend towards sort of socializing in a very different way and obviously that impacts our industry. So you're seeing obviously rise in moderation. So people choosing non alk options, people choosing to call do what we call zebra striping, which is, you know, basically might have an alcoholic drink, then might, you know, mix it up with a non alk, they might have an alcoholic drink, etc. So that's Zebra striping Behavior experience is really coming to the fore. Like people are looking for sort of, you know, much more mixed up, freer, less fixed experiences. So they expect to find, you know, sports and music and entertainment and food and everything all in the one sort of evening. And you know, venues that are increasingly are sort of, you know, tilting to, that are actually doing really, really well. Obviously we still see the growth of premiumization even in cash conscious times, people are still choosing to trade up and make those choices where actually there's no sort of buyer's regret in us. Right. So you're actually spending your money wisely and obviously with a premium portfolio like Diageo's that favors us as well. So. Yeah. And then obviously the media landscape is fragmenting and the rise of digital and social is not going away. So we really see that as a kind of key lever and it's been a big part of the success story on Guinness actually tilting into that actually.

[John Evans]

Remind me, I've worked in soft drinks most of my career, so the non alcoholic side. But you're right about premiumization. I mean having been through two global recessions in soft drinks, the market kind of polarizes that. People actually when they're tightening their belts do want to spend money at home typically, but on more premium.

[Gronja Wafer]

And also if you're going out, you want to have a really great experience and you have a higher expectation for the standard of service, the standard of cocktail. If you're going to spend that money, you want it to be something memorable. And you know, again that's something that favors a lot of our portfolio. So it's good news for us.

[John Evans]

Now talking about you have a very enviable portfolio of kind of brand leaders, but you also have challenger brands, don't you? And sort of up and coming brands. Which are the brands up and coming within the portfolio that are doing particularly well.

[Gronja Wafer]

Yeah. So across the portfolio. So I look after beer, vodka, liqueurs and ready to drink. So there's plenty of, just a small portfolio, plenty of big brands within that like Guinness and Smirnoff and Bailey's but also small brands like obviously Ketel One in vodka. Obviously also brands like a new brand called Venturo which we launched in liqueurs. It's an aperitivo brand, it's launched in Italy, it's doing very well. And so yeah, there's quite a mix of, you know, different brands across that and different types of sort of business models and marketing models that goes alongside that as well. So you know, obviously when you're building those sort of challenger brands you're thinking probably bar and store back and you're really thinking particularly in a, with a brand like for example Ketel One, the bartender's favourite vodka. So you're really thinking about how you build those relationships with bartenders, how you really, you know, make sure the kettle one is on the cocktail menus, on cocktail lists. And we have a platform called Made to Cocktail which is really plays into Kettle's strength and, you know, really thinking about that sort of ambassadorial role and the word of mouth that comes from that very influential community. So it's quite a different model, as you can imagine, than building a brand like Smirnoff, even though it's the same category, where actually you're thinking of a global giant of a brand in Smirnoff, Smirnoff alone, never mind Smirnoff Ice. You put those two together and you've like a behemoth. So they're very different. You're thinking about scale, reach and all of that with Smirnoff and obviously much broader audiences as well.

[John Evans]

How do you make the decision between those? Because I remember years ago when I was at Britvic, I worked on, I created a new team called Seed Brands which is basically managing the innovation. It was about 3% of company turnover, but I was competing internally for resource and time and attention. Given your role is very broad, how do you make those kind of portfolios?

[Gronja Wafer]

We have an amazing data LED tool called Catalyst, which basically allows us to use data to map portfolio and optimize our choices within that based on profit pool, scale of growth, opportunity, return, investment. And we can basically look at any category in any market and sort of say, okay, actually the best mix of portfolio to invest behind would be here. Now obviously we also then apply a sort of a judgment call on it as well, because you might have things where you say, actually that's still not being captured as a big profit pool for the future, but we can see the trends going that way. And that's when we're using things like future insight, et cetera to really drive those choices. But that tool actually also works right down to growth driver levels. So we can actually be saying, you know, what if you moved, let's say say £1,000 from TV to social on that brand in that market, you could drive your ROI by that, that then turns like, sort of turns off money, that you can then make some of those investments in the brands that are at an earlier stage in their life cycle. So you can sort of play around like that as well. So it's a fascinating, great tool on everybody's desktop. We've recently just refreshed it. So yeah, that's one of the main ways we make those choices.

[John Evans]

Oh, that is very fascinating. And one of the challenges as well. You've got. Is you've got beer and you've got kind of premium spirits as well. And they're very different sort of P. Ls I would assume. But am I right in saying that all the rumors of Guinness being disposed of are all kind of put together?

[Gronja Wafer]

I think. I think our CFO came out and categorically said that was the case. So put to bed.

[John Evans]

Very relieved to hear.

[Gronja Wafer]

And it's interesting. Right. So like Guinness, although, you know, it's a beer brand in a sort of spirits company, it's actually a very distinctive brand and it behaves in a way that's much closer to sort of the rules of spirits marketing than other beer brands, for example. So it's highly distinctive, it has really strong meaning. Obviously, you know, Guinness is highly salient. In fact, it's the most talked about brand in its category. Sometimes the scores are so high, I'm wondering, is there space for any other brand to be talked about at all? Like, I think something like 60% share of talkability in GB. Right. Which is phenomenal. So it sort of behaves like a spirit brand in many ways. And we sort of think about how we're building, you know, according to those sort of meaning. Distinctiveness and salience on the brand throughout. Yeah, that's great.

[John Evans]

I'd never actually clocked that idea that if you take a spirit brand, because obviously on spirit brands, because it's high margin and it's sort of premium, you do focus on building brand, don't you? Whereas in, I guess in lager, it's very commoditized, you can switch between lots of different brands. You can't really sell differently in products. But maybe there's a benefit, actually, the fact that it's not been subsumed into a big.

[Gronja Wafer]

Absolutely. And the other thing I'd say is that actually, I mean, Guinness, in terms of, you know, obviously its mix, it also is an on trade, primarily focused brand, although obviously we're growing in the off trade, but still it's heartland in the on trade, which is a higher margin channel as well. Right. So, you know, it's a premium brand, it's got high pricing power from its distinctivity and, you know, it does, as I say, sort of behave more like a spirits brand, which is interesting because then we can also take the learnings from some of the success stories on Guinness and apply that back into our spirits portfolio as well.

[John Evans]

Interesting.

[Gronja Wafer]

Yeah, yeah. Particularly when you're talking about like, for example, ready to Drink, which is just a booming category at the moment, one of the fastest growing categories in tba. And there's a lot of synergy with that between both the sort of beer learnings and also the spirits ones as well.

[John Evans]

Yeah, and lots of big headlines last year. So I think you grew 17%, is that right?

[Gronja Wafer]

Our eighth consecutive half of double digit growth. Really?

[John Evans]

Wow, that's incredible. So that's over four years then.

[Gronja Wafer]

Yeah, exactly. Consistent growth, which is very consistent, very sustained, which is great. And I think it comes as the result of a very deliberate sort of strategic shift that we made on the brand that preceded the four years, obviously. But it's great to see it really bearing fruits.

[John Evans]

It's a good question. Can you trace it back to a moment or a period in time where that trajectory changed and what led to that? And what were the kind of main drivers?

[Gronja Wafer]

I would say less about the point of the trajectory changing and more about the point at which we decided we needed to make a strategic sort of comprehensive intervention. And that was sort of, you know, sort of in the early 2010-2014 type of period where our growth had sort of tailed off. And, you know, we were not recruiting drinkers at the rate we wanted to be recruiting them. And as well as that, the. I mean, it sort of culminated with Mintel, I think, in 2014, said, Put simply, Guinness is no longer cool.

[John Evans]

Oh, no.

[Gronja Wafer]

Like, quite a strike to the horse. Right, so. So we took that very much to heart and basically overtook a full sort of root and branch strategic review of the brand. Obviously, it's a brand that's been built on decades of epic legacy marketing. We had really strong history, particularly in broadcast advertising, but the world had changed and media had fragmented and consumers were spending their time on digital and social. And although TV and broadcast is still a really important channel for Guinness and will continue to be, we had to sort of reorientate our model entirely around the social first approach and really building it with our community of drinkers, of which we are incredibly fortunate. Like, the passion that our consumers have for Guinness, I think, is unrivaled. You know, people literally get it tattooed on them. You know, it's amazing, you know, so we really sort of chipped into that from a sort of a media model. And obviously alongside that, we took a look at our innovation pipeline and we rapidly accelerated programs that have been in development, like Guinness Zero, for example, which has been a huge success story for us. But also things like Microdraft, which is basically a piece of kit that allows us put Guinness into any bar or restaurant in the world without the need for keg or any of that cooling setup. It's literally a plug and play system. So that immediately expanded our distribution base of places where we could be Nitrosurge, which was a COVID 19 project, which basically we saw the like, I mean, the nuts things that people were doing to get like a really great pint of Guinness at home. Like they were doing everything from those supersonic jewelry cleaners and they were putting their pint in it to using electric toothbrushes. Like it was crazy. And we were like, okay, we can do better than this.

[John Evans]

They're going to replicate the pub experience.

[Gronja Wafer]

They wanted all of the craft, right. So. And there's something in that sort of insight that Guinness drinkers in particular love when you give them craft into their hand and really give them the ability to sort of do the two parpour, et cetera, et cetera. So we invented Nitrosurge that came out of that and that's been a big success story for us as well. So sort of innovation. We also looked at our sort of go to route to market and how we distribute Guinness around the world as part of that. And we moved to sort of more third party operations as well. So that was very helpful. And obviously we doubled down on our sports activation with amazing properties like obviously Guinness Rugby, which we extended into women's rugby in 2024. 25, obviously the 24. Sorry, because we're in 25 now.

[John Evans]

I'm a year ahead myself.

[Gronja Wafer]

I'm a year ahead of myself. And then obviously signing the Premier League deal last year as well, which is phenomenal.

[John Evans]

I mean, that's a big move, isn't it?

[Gronja Wafer]

Absolutely.

[John Evans]

Just before we get into that, because I'd love to sort of pick your brains on how you bring an activation of that skill scale to Life. You mentioned 0% and I think that's had a major kind of shift in terms of the brand, I guess. A couple of questions. Firstly, how close to the real taste of Guinness can you get without the alcohol?

[Gronja Wafer]

Have you tried it?

[John Evans]

Yeah, yeah, I think. Well, this really surprised me because I wasn't expecting it to be as close as it was. How did you manage that?

[Gronja Wafer]

It was. I mean, I would put all kudos to our brewers, who are just amazing. An amazing brewer called Aisling perfected the process. That's very, very gentle. And that's what sort of differentiated from other non alklaukers where you sort of get a little bit of that, you know, harsher taste profile. But She's.

[John Evans]

You sort of lose the body a lot, don't you?

[Gronja Wafer]

Exactly.

[John Evans]

So it feels like watered down.

[Gronja Wafer]

You need exactly that. So anyways, she did an amazing job of working with this process to deliver a Guinness that's, you know, very gently has the alcohol removed, tastes pretty much identical to Guinness with alcohol. You know, if you're sipping them both side by side and you're a real aficionado, you might spot a difference. But the feedback has been phenomenal. It accounted for 20% of our overall trademark growth. It's already 12% of the trademark in GB, for example. So. And you know, it's just going from strength to strength and we've only really got going on it in GB, Ireland and recently in the US so there's huge headroom for further growth.

[John Evans]

12% is a lot. There are very, very few brand extensions that I've seen get in that short space of time, get to double digit share.

[Gronja Wafer]

Yeah, it's been a big success story. And I think, like as I said at the beginning, it really sort of, you know, reflects that consumer trend that we're seeing to moderation, to zebra striping, to like wanting to have fantastic experiences with no compromise. Right. And that's what we're giving with Guinness ear. And I think people are responding, you know, really, really well to us. Yeah.

[John Evans]

Now you mentioned there that you've now sponsored the English Premier League, which is a pretty big deal.

[Gronja Wafer]

Right.

[John Evans]

I mean, that's probably one of the most prestigious globally recognized sponsorships on earth. And you had a really long heritage in rugby. I mean, certainly if you were to ask me what do I associate Guinness with, it would be rugby and that's kind of well established. So what was the thinking to make the move into football? And then how have you brought that to life? Because you're up against some very big kind of brands doing something similar things.

[Gronja Wafer]

You're right. We had a 70 year association with rugby and you know, really deeply ingrained in it at all. Grassroots right through to sort of title sponsorship property and then moving into women's rugby as well. But you know, rugby as a property is really in the six nations obviously is confined to sort of gb, Ireland as you know, our two main markets that really benefit from that. So when we heard the Premier League property was available, we jumped at the opportunity because it gives us huge global scale and reach, you know, over 2 billion viewers. And you know, I was just commenting earlier, we moved so quickly on it. You know, we moved from signing the deal to within 90 days activating it in over 80 countries. 5000 assets produced in those 90 days. Can I say, last summer was very busy.

[John Evans]

Wow.

[Gronja Wafer]

We literally were flat out getting ready for that. And we're activating it around the world in viewing parties, obviously through some beautiful TV spots as well. We're using it to really broaden the impact and awareness and trial of guinnessero as well. So you'll see guinnessero being sampled and leading out on some of the comms as well. You know, it's just been a fantastic, you know, very short, sharp eight months. But so far we're already the number one beer consumed in the viewing occasion in gb, which is huge because we were number three when we started the property. So very exciting to see that sort of progress. We're activating it with real scale as well. So it's good to see.

[John Evans]

Well, a couple of questions on that. A lot of people that I speak to in sponsorship seem to come up with the same challenge, which is how do you value sponsorship? Because at the headline level, there's a lot of money that gets spent on sponsorship and it's one of those things that I think marketers struggle a little bit to work out the attribution and how you measure the performance of it. So how do you approach that?

[Gronja Wafer]

Again, we're building the learning right now. It will go into our catalyst system which will be able to track the actual impact of it. And early signs from the research we've done is it is having an impact. It's a big property. It gives us like a lot of consumption moments, you know, around the game, which is like very strong link with volume. We can activate it in channel with proximity media. We can see the benefits of that in terms of short term roi. So actually we've a lot of data that would say it's a big part of the success we're having on Guinness. And hopefully, as I say, we're only getting going. We're only eight months into the four year.

[John Evans]

Well, I can attest to it. I was at a Premier League game earlier in the season and you were on all the electronic hoardings and available at half time as well to drink. Although I have to confess, they did run out during the middle of half time.

[Gronja Wafer]

Sorry about that, John. We'll do better next time.

[John Evans]

But this was a new story, wasn't it, last Christmas that Guinness actually ran dry?

[Gronja Wafer]

Yeah, I know.

[John Evans]

It must present its own success.

[Gronja Wafer]

It was unprecedented sales period for Guinness. We sold more in December than we did in March, which if you think of Guinness March, you've got St Patrick's Day and you've got two Six nations matches. So that just gives you a sense of just how unprecedented the demand was. So we worked pretty hard to get the stock back up again and meet that demand on an ongoing basis.

[John Evans]

So, yeah, now talking about Six nations, you now sponsor the women's Six nations as well, which is great. And there's some fun activations you're doing as well, which, looking at, you know, how you bring boots, I think, wasn't it to women's rugby? Explain what that was about.

[Gronja Wafer]

Yeah. So again, in rugby, I mean, one of the things, even in the men's game, we, you know, start the journey. Do you remember the Gareth Thomas spot? Yeah. Which is beautiful. You know, really, it was the first openly gay rugby player. So we sort of shone the light of, on making, you know, rugby more accessible, full stop. And that's our mission with rugby. And signing the women's deal then, obviously, was a great foray into that. And we set out a campaign called Never Settle in the First Year, which was really about writing some of the imbalances in coverage of the women's game in celebrating the women players. So, for example, we did the double blue tick on Wikipedia to make sure that all the women's profiles were updated and were fully validated as well across all social channels. And then we did a media campaign which was around really boosting the media coverage that's given to the women's game as well. So that was a sort of first year in. And then this year for the season, we did this amazing world first, which is the very first ever soft ground football rugby boot designed for women. And we did it in partnership with IDA. We gave it to the players. We gave 2000 clubs at grassroots level. And honestly, the commentary from the women players is just fantastic. And again, it's like kind of nuts, isn't it, that, like, we're not designing sports shoes for women and we need to be. So, yeah, great first. And then we did some other amazing work on accessibility in terms of, for visually impaired and people who are hard of hearing with live audio descriptions for the first time ever at games. And we did an amazing piece of technology called Field of Vision, where we launched that at the Irish Games this year and people who were visually impaired could follow for the first time ever in real time, the action that was going on. How does that work? Yeah, it's amazing. It's amazing. It's sort of like, for want of a better word, it looks a bit like an iPad with the screen in Real time, so you can kind of touch and feel what the players are doing, doing. And obviously you're getting the audio as well, so you actually sort of have a sense of really what it's there to be at.

[John Evans]

Astonishing. Wow. I love that. I remember, actually, years ago, I was working on Lucas Aid and we were a sponsor of the men's English team and then we took out a sponsorship of the women's team. And what I noticed, I mean, this was back in about 2016, 17. So I think, you know, England hadn't won the women's euros that point, so we know we were kind of early in our journey. But what I noticed is when you kind of, you know, as we did move into women's football, there's so much more passion and engagement from the players. I remember speaking to the FA and they're like, well, you get maybe 20 minutes of Harry Kane a year in the deal, or with the women's team, it's like, right, they'll all turn up to any event you want. They'll go anywhere. You know, they're engaged with everything. And I just think there's so much more passion and engagement, isn't there, when you put a spotlight on.

[Gronja Wafer]

Absolutely. And it's a game that's, you know, still growing. It's very exciting to see, you know, the skill and the standard of women's rugby and how it's really, you know, just, I think, capturing new audiences. It's brilliant to see Twickenham completely full for, you know, women's matches, etc. Whereas a couple of years ago that wouldn't have been the case. There's still work to do and we're committed to, you know, sticking by that mantra of we won't settle until, you know, we've achieved the same things in partnership with the unions for women's rugby as we have for men. So I think that's very exciting.

[John Evans]

That's wonderful to see, isn't it? And, I mean, certainly for me, as a dad with two daughters, it's dead exciting to see exactly what's going in. I wanted to pick out a comment you made in Nascal about rigor and return. You know, the fact that, you know, there are some things you can measure easily and there's some things you can't measure. What's your approach to kind of evaluating, I mean, I guess, beyond catalysts, you know, you explain that, but how do you measure kind of the effectiveness of marketing more broadly and how do you make the kind of case for it internally?

[Gronja Wafer]

Yeah, I mean, to be honest, John, we do use Catalyst and like, we have literally data at our fingerprint that shows the return on investment of, you know, pretty much most of our growth drivers. There's some areas like cultural influence is still an area where it's harder to get really accurate data on, but across the board, you know, you can basically see like, and as I said, like, what happens to your ROI if you shift money from broadcast to digital, for example, which we did on Guinness, and we saw improvement as a result in our short term and held our long term ROI as well. So, like, it is literally with that degree of accuracy that you're able to pinpoint it. And you know, I think then the other piece is making room for experiments and, you know, bravery and having some things that you just say, actually this is something we're just going to do and we don't know yet, but we're going to learn a ton. And then therefore your ki's for that is more about learning, experimenting. What are we actually gathering here in terms of consumer insight or knowledge as to how a new platform works or knowledge as to how we might execute something differently? So I think you separate out the ones where, you know, these are absolutely proven growth drivers and then create the space for creativity and groundbreaking work as well.

[John Evans]

I like giving the room for the experimentation because that's where you uncover the potential new gems and the things that kind of will break the model.

[Gronja Wafer]

Exactly, yeah. Break the model a little bit, like.

[John Evans]

Tweak around the edges.

[Gronja Wafer]

You don't want to break the model fully. Yeah, yeah, yeah, no, but I think it's important, you know, that you do create that space for, you know, both our agency partners and our teams to sort of feel they can come to us with something that hasn't been done before. Because we've always been a brand, particularly on Guinness, but in diage across the board that's, you know, focused on breaking new ground and doing work that really sort of, you know, makes you go, I wish I had done that. And yes. So it's, I think it's an exciting thing. It means we get the best people on our work as well. So.

[John Evans]

Yeah. And one brand in your portfolio we haven't talked about. There's a big favorite in our household is Bailey's, of course. And Bailey's turned 50, didn't it, last year?

[Gronja Wafer]

Yeah, Bailey's is an amazing brand. And again, you know, sort of a big sort of reframe that we let out on Bailey's, because before Bailey's was sort of like this Dusty, slightly forgotten about liqueur brand, you know, drunk by your granny, maybe, and on the bottom shelf in a supermarket. And okay, at Christmas it would come out, but the rest of the year wasn't really top of mind. So we sort of went right back to the sort of product insight that's at the heart of Bailey's, which is that it's part cake, part booze, pure pleasure. And we said, you know what, our mission is to be the number one grown up adult treat, because all other treats in the world, you know, don't have what we bring to the party, which is that bit of booze. Right. So, so we created a whole strategy all around building Bailey's presence as a treat brand. And it's been a fantastic turnaround story for Bailey's. It's now 40% bigger than it was before that strategy took off. So it's been great, Jess. So 50 years of Bailey's, one of our biggest innovations, and glad to see that it's still innovating. We have a fantastic oat milk we've just launched in the US and we have Bailey's chocolate as well, which is doing very well.

[John Evans]

I was looking at it. It was born two years, sorry, two months before I was. So in the same year. So. Yes.

[Gronja Wafer]

And you're still innovating too?

[John Evans]

Exactly. Well, yeah, exactly, yeah, keep going on that front. So you talk about 40% growth and what were the main kind of changes that you made that delivered on that growth? Was it innovation led? Like you talked about chocolate?

[Gronja Wafer]

I mean, I think it's the whole reframe of actually saying we are a treat brand and understanding that consumer insight and then behaving like a treat brand. So that meant that you're still showing up where, you know, much more present in Instagram. You're showing up with delicious serves, you're doing partnerships with, you know, licensing opportunities, for example, moving into ice cream, chocolate, etc. So then you have dual sighting in store, which is very helpful in terms of building physical availability. And, you know, again, like, Bailey's is highly responsive to, you know, media dollars. So honestly, you switch them on, you see the response, you know, so getting that balance right in the mix and then extending the seasonality of Baileys from Christmas into, you know, we started obviously with Easter and we have an amazing sort of Easter egg campaign where you fill chocolate Easter egg with Bailey. It's delicious and, you know, use it as a serving vessel. So, you know, expanding into then and even into summer with like, things like iced Bailey's frappes and coffees. It's delicious. We were just saying we should get it here at can. Yeah, so, yeah, so it's a combination of, you know, really extending the salience and relevance and then being clear on your proposition, which is.

[John Evans]

I think, I think you're right because in on the. I think I was doing the System One database of all the ads we've tested over the last 10 years. And I think. I think you're right. At Easter, your Bailey's Ab with the chocolates, what is it?

[Gronja Wafer]

Chocolate? It's chocolate Easter egg. And then we had another one for Christmas, which was a reindeer chocolate one.

[John Evans]

I saw that one as well. Yeah, yeah, yeah, I remember. Yeah, both of those. And it literally just smashed the system. It's like high five points.

[Gronja Wafer]

Well, I mean, who doesn't like a bit of chocolate? Like, it's not. What's not to love, Right.

[John Evans]

Sometimes, you know, for all the kind of, you know, cleverness we put into advertising, sometimes you can just show the product, you know, and it's one of those categories, isn't it, that.

[Gronja Wafer]

And people just love bakery. Just reminds them they absolutely love it. It's the most loved spirits brand in the world. Everybody loves it. They just don't often think about it. So that's our job.

[John Evans]

Fantastic. Now, I wanted to ask you a bit about the role of a CMO in a large organization. And you've been at Diageo for a few years.

[Gronja Wafer]

28 years.

[John Evans]

Hard to believe. Last week you must have been a child graduate.

[Gronja Wafer]

I'll claim that, but I wasn't. I had a child before that.

[John Evans]

But yeah, and Diageo is famous for having a Diageo way, isn't it? I mean, that's what you read about. And I mean, certainly when I was doing my kind of early brand manager jobs, I worked in a small distributor called First Drinks. We were kind of a blend of Picardy and William Grant's time. And everyone would go, what would Diageo do? You know, in terms of marketing and the Diageo playbook? What is it that Diageo does that sets it apart from a marketing point of view?

[Gronja Wafer]

Well, I think you're right. I mean, the Diageo Wave brand building was basically created within, I think, a year of Diageo being formed. Right. So it's been around a very, very long time and we train all of our staff and our agencies and indeed our commercial colleagues, anybody who wants to be part of this, and we think of, you know, all of our sort of 30,000 employees as brand builders. And people take enormous pride from that. They take enormous pride from the brands and the founder stories and the work they do. And you know, our erg groups working with us on, you know, progressive marketing, etc. So there's a, it's a brand led organization and brand building is very much at the heart of it and all the way through the organization and in every function right up to, you know, board level. So I think that's very special and quite distinctive and unique that it's such a source of pride and engagement. And we see our brand building capability as a competitive advantage as well. So, you know, we invest in making sure that our thinking is leading edge, that we're taking the very best thinking in, you know, marketing theory and practice and we're applying it and we're validating it and that we're keeping people trained and refreshed and updating us. You know, we've recently just relaunched Dweeb with some new chapters and we had a Diageo. Sorry, Dweeb, the Diageo Way of Brand building.

[John Evans]

Oh, sorry.

[Gronja Wafer]

We have acronyms for everything. But yeah, it's an amazing program and we, as I said, really think of it as a competitive advantage for us.

[John Evans]

I mean, a lot of people look slightly enviously at Diageo and the investment you make and the quality of the output. If you were to arrive, not that I'm saying you're leaving, but if we were to arrive somewhere else and that doesn't have that way, what would you do to implement the approach or to convince people of that approach?

[Gronja Wafer]

I mean, I think there's a few things that certainly that I would bring and one of them is simplification. And I think that sometimes can be difficult to arrive at when you're telling a story on a brand and what's at the heart of it and what will remain at the heart of it and then what are you trying to change and drive for growth? Right, So I think that's one piece. I think the second thing is really having evidence based results. I mean that's probably the most powerful, you know, and really seeing marketing as a growth engine, a business lever and you know, it's not a nice to do, it's a must do if you want to grow your business. And then I think making sure that, you know, the basic principles that are sort of fundamental to marketing of, you know, driving, meaning, distinctive and salience and making sure you have the right mix between mental availability and physical availability, all of the, you know, the best thinking and Marketing practice that's embedded as well.

[John Evans]

And I think in my experience that's often the challenge is that as marketers we understand those things, but often it's convincing an organization that rarely kind of understands marketing theory and sometimes it's about educating, isn't it, internally getting the wider.

[Gronja Wafer]

Business to appreciate it and I think being able to simplify it. Right. And you know, sometimes there's a. A desire for marketeers, I think, to feel it's a little bit of a conjurer's black box that you produce these amazing things and you do, ta da. But I actually think opening the black box and sharing how you get at things, why you've got at things, the level of consumer insight that's gone into making the work, the level of cultural influence that's gone into crafting the work to make sure that it's relevant and has sort of cultural salience as well. I think the more you're bringing people into the world, the more open they are to hearing.

[John Evans]

That's great advice, actually. Bring them into the journey that you've been on from insight, so how you financially evaluate it to how it's executed and help them see all that. So you've been at the business and you've got a very senior role as well. What tips would you give to a CMO to be successful and lead the kind of change that you've led over the last few years?

[Gronja Wafer]

I think, I think so. The one thing I'd always say is like, never lose your curiosity and it's amazing to be here in Cannes. The stimulus that's available in terms of new thinking and really trying to make those serendipitous connections. I think that's one thing I'd say is so important. It's so easy to get sucked into the machine of your job and sort of curious and external focus, I think is ultimately what our unique role as marketeers is to bring into the boardroom is that sense of we know and have our finger on what our consumers and customers want. So I think that's the first thing I'd say. I think the second thing is really understanding how to orchestrate, you know, for big outcomes and thinking about, you know, sort of the planning that goes into doing some of those big scale interventions on a brand and that you're thinking about that through the organization, not just through. Sometimes again, we can sort of stay at this level and we're not really thinking about, well, what will be different for people working in a market. For example, if you're in a global role or what will be different for somebody working global through that. And then I think, you know, be a business leader, total business. Think about the entire organization and what role you're bringing through, you know, your marketing lens to other aspects of the business as well. And where are you delivering the growth opportunities that you can see.

[John Evans]

Yeah, you're right. Connectivity of marketing. So actually I've often believed that marketers touch more of the organization than almost any other role if you think about if in the factory or if in the supply chain or if in a customer facing role. But with marketing, we manage things really from an idea being created all the way through to the execution of how it appears in hundreds of markets around the world of a very, very broad scope. And that brings with it an ability as well kind of lead the organization.

[Gronja Wafer]

And to remember that the people in the organization are your consumers. Yeah, right. As well. So, you know, they have a point of view and they, they will want to see and will take interest in the work you're doing. So again, the more you share that, I think people, and particularly I've seen it with employee resource groups, you know, they really want to partner with us on some of our progressive marketing work and making sure that, you know, we're really tapping into their expertise and knowledge as well. And you know, we've done that very successfully. For example, the Baileys Halloween spot that we did, you know, we worked with our LGBTQ resource group for that and it was just brilliant to get that level of insight, input. But then also that sense of partnership in creating the work. You could imagine the sense of pride.

[John Evans]

Oh, Groni, thank you so much. It's great to have you. Great to have you on. Congratulations on all top results and hopefully we'll bump into each other later.

[Gronja Wafer]

I'm sure we will. We'll have a Tanqueray Zero at the Tanqueray Zero bar.

[John Evans]

There we go. Done. Thank you. Thank you very much for listening or watching Uncensored cmo. I hope you enjoyed that. If you did, please do hit the subscribe button wherever you get your podcast. If you're watching, hit subscribe there as well. I'd also love to get a review. Reviews make a big difference on other people discovering the show. So please do leave a review wherever you get your podcast. If you want to contact me, you can do I'm over on X UncensoredCMO or on LinkedIn where I'm under my own name, John Evans. Thanks for listening and watching. I'll see you next time.