B (3:24)

And you need to know what game you're actually playing.

A (3:26)

Yes, you do.

B (3:28)

So before you break the rules, let's understand what the rules are first. Right? Because I can see you being a rule breaker, and I am as well. And you need to know what game you're playing before you start breaking the rules. I'll give you maybe a story of how not to get fired that goes back into the early days of my career. It was my third job, and I was young in my journey, and I had been brought there from somebody, from my first job. And this was just a very exciting moment where I got the phone call from somebody I'd worked for in the past who wanted to take me along on this exciting journey. And it was. Everything lined up to be this extraordinary moment for me to build my career, build a company, and doing with incredible people. And I start the job, and I cannot get along with my boss. And it was one of those moments where I would go home every day, reflect on the day. And none of the days were good days. We were always getting into some sort of tension point, but not healthy tension. Unhealthy tension, unhealthy friction. Couldn't see things eye to eye. And it was creating misalignment inside myself to the point where I just couldn't be the employee that I needed to be for the company. And this was going on for a few months, and it almost starts to have a physical impact on you when you just can't feel that you're aligned and ready to be in a position of thrive. I was definitely in survival mode. How do I survive every day? How do I make it and not get fired at the end of the day? So I would go see a couple of advisors and speak to a bunch of different folks. And in fact, I got unanimous advice. The unanimous advice was, you gotta quit this job. Go find another job. This is not gonna work for you. You're not delivering what you can be delivering. You're falling short when you should be the superstar, Yada, yada, yada. And I was like, but I love the company, and I love the work, and I love the job, and I love the brands. Why is quitting the only answer? And I feel like if I quit, I lose. So I decided that there had to be another path, but nobody could show me what that path was. So guess where I went. The bookstore.

A (5:51)

Ooh.

B (5:52)

I went to the bookstore and I had a conversation with the librarian.

A (5:57)

The librarian.

B (5:59)

And I explained what was happening. I said, I don't even know where to go in the bookstore for help, but there's gotta be something in these wall that are gonna help support where I'm standing on this journey. And she asked me a few questions. She was really curious and had incredible instincts. And she said, I know exactly where to take you. And I was like, wow, you do? So she walks me to this particular section of the store, walks me to a particular shelf, and hones in on a particular book. And the book was called Cultural Misunderstandings the French American Experience. I went home and I read that book in one weekend. I went back to work Monday morning, and I was with that company for 18 years.

A (6:45)

Wow.

B (6:45)

And what I realized was I couldn't expect my boss to change. I needed to change. I needed to unlock a different code. I needed to come from a different temperature, a different angle. Something about me had to change. And what had to change about me was understanding this actually had nothing to do with me and her. It had everything to do with the fact that we were coming at it from different cultural perspectives. And, in fact, I got so good at understanding the French that I eventually married one. So the book went a very. Yeah, the book went a very long way.

A (7:23)

Oh, I love that.

B (7:24)

But it taught me a lot. Not only about not expecting somebody else to change. You have to make the change if you want this thing to be Successful. It also taught me a lot about cultural variations and how we actually come at problems from different angles and understanding that first, how critical that is in any problem solving or navigating difficult moments, which you're gonna have to do in work setting and scenarios. So I think the key advice here is it all starts with you don't expect the culture to change for you, the boss to change for you, the colleagues to change for you. Ask yourself, what are you gonna do differently in order to adjust to this environment? Similar to what you were saying that your boss said, hey, you're a great marketer, but you can't figure out how to play the politics. And that's really important. So had you actually spent the time to understand how to navigate that, you wouldn't have gotten fired.

A (8:21)

Quite right. Exactly. I think one of the lessons it touched on as well, I remember learning this when I sort of first became a leader is you kind of assume that everyone wants to be managed like you. And this has been a massive learning for me because you kind of assume again that you, my boss, must, you know, must want to manage me in the way I want to be managed kind of thing.

B (8:41)

Right.

A (8:41)

And I remember one of the. Very early in my career, Fiona, like, absolutely, you know, we get on brilliantly now, but I remember we had this sort of tension about, you know, you know, she was managing me, and I just wasn't doing things in the way that she wanted me to.

B (8:54)

Yeah.

A (8:55)

And we. I remember she went to talk to HR and they got us through the psychometric test, worked out we were the polar. There was this quadrant, and we were like, literally hugging the opposite ends of the boxes and this sort of thing. And it was amazing because I remember doing that and it just broke the ice or whatever the phrase is, but it just. It just unlocks something where suddenly went, oh, so what you value from me in this particular example was being updated on things, knowing what I'm working on, agreeing my priorities. What I valued was guidance, inspiration on how we solve a problem. And anyway, so we just worked out that what was motivating us and, you know, where our blind spots were, were the reverse. And the weird thing about that, with that learning, which actually I've ended up kind of appreciating my career, is that people that think in opposite ways to you are so valuable. Once you unlock it, it becomes. So it goes from being this, like, barrier and confrontation to suddenly being this amazing unlock where actually you get the most out of each other. And it can work brilliantly, but you've got to. You've got to first seek to understand before you can seek to solve it. And I think my problem was jumping to solution without thinking about understanding the person and context first.

B (10:02)

Yeah, but even there, like, what I take away from that is have the conversation. Have the conversation. That is a difficult conversation you have to have with somebody to say, hey, this is not working out the way either one of us want it to work out. I'm willing to do my part and help me understand what that is. And if I had to do my story a little bit differently, I would have had that honest dialogue with my boss. Rather than like feel sick to my stomach for three months every day going to the office and eventually ending up in a bookstore. Why didn't I just have the conversation? Right?

A (10:38)

100%. Yeah.

B (10:39)

And I think so much can be solved through honest, transparent, candid dialogue. And for some reason we're afraid to have hard conversations.

A (10:50)

It is fair, though. I think you're right. It's fair. And actually it's easier to have the conversation early than it is to let it go late and then get to an irreparable point where you feel as you did, like you had to leave. Fortunately you didn't. But you get to that point. I think the other thing that helps in terms of not getting fired is really think about aligning yourself to what the company's trying to achieve. And I think that's something we don't think about. We, we tend to get stuck in the sort of silo of our jobs. But something I learned as well is really thinking carefully about am I delivering something that the company really needs and aligning myself kind of culturally, but also from a business point of view to what it needs. And if you are doing that, it's a lot easier because you're kind of moving in the direction of the company's going. Otherwise you kind of. As much as you'd love to do this thing over here, if it's not actually what the company needs, you end up finding yourself isolated, frustrated. It could be values, couldn't. It can always be a clash of values or a clash of direction in terms of where you're going, but making sure that you're aligned to the company goal and mission is so key as well.

B (11:51)

Well, that starts with asking a lot of questions and being very curious. So even when you're seeking a new job, and I think about where we're standing today with, with Elf Beauty and we're a high growth company, High growth company requires a certain type of employee who can thrive in that environment and deliver on the company's goal. And that is very different than a slow growth company or a no growth company. So I think the key for anyone is making sure you understand what is the actual thing I'm walking into and is that something I actually want to do? It's not just can I do it, do I want to do that, do I want to get up every day and go to this place and do this thing with these people? And I think very often times people are attracted to the sexy thing, like, oh, wow, this company's got 26 consecutive quarters of growth. So I wanna work for a high growth company. What you need to be asking is, what does that actually mean? What are the set of behaviors? What does a typical day look like? What needs to be true in order for that high growth to happen? And I think you need to understand the what, the why and the how.

A (13:12)

That is amazing. It brings me very neatly onto the second time. I got fired actually, which was. So I ended up, after the first time, ended up getting a job at Brewdog and it's exactly what you just described. So Brewdog at the time, I can't dunno if it still is, but at the time was one of the fastest growing companies in the uk, fastest growing beer brand, had built a new category of craft beer in the uk. A lot of it borrowed from the US actually, because you've got a very well established craft beer scene over here in the uk, we didn't really have that. And James and Martin set the business up about 15 years ago and they were probably growing when I joined them at 70, 80% a year and had had this incredible unicorn kind of valuation. $2 billion, I think it was, products investment, amazing rocket ship. And so when I left where I was before it, I got, I literally got the call the week after I got fired. So week after I had that conversation, yeah, I got a call saying, they want you, right. And. And I just saw the shiny lights. I was like, whoa, dream brand, dream scenario. This is like perfect timing. Could not have been better. I think exactly what you said about the how. Because what I couldn't figure out in the timescale I had is how to execute against the ambition with the lack of resource and under the time pressure that I was given, it was mental and the compromises required to do it as well. So it'd be a case if I come in and I'd like work up a plan that was six months, which is still fast, and it'd be like that has to be six weeks. And the compromises and cutting corners and pressure to put people under to do it was just insane. And the appetite to lay on more and more and more and more. So, I mean, one of the things, I mean, I actually got on very, very well with James, the founder. Every, every day we'd be having brainstorms, right? He'd send me a text, middle of the night, right? By the time you wake up, I want five ideas about how we're gonna launch a new beer or whatever. You know what I mean? It's just like. And I loved it. I mean I absolutely loved, I loved the mission, I love the creativity, I love the ambition. It was just so exciting. But the execution, oh my word, was that hard? With a small team in limited resources, that is a very, very, very hard job. Particularly where you haven't grown up with the brand and grown up with the, you know, and understand the culture and all the kind of things to talk about. And that was really, really hard. And you know, after three months, we decided to kind of part company. But that's exactly what you said, which is understand what it takes to be in a business operating at that level. It's not just a case of I'm going to sign on and enjoy the rides. There's no enjoying the rides.

B (15:53)

No, there is no enjoying the ride.

A (15:55)

Yeah. Everyone is always under pressure, always trying to figure things out. There's no playbook. Because next month is not me. Like last month.

B (16:03)

Right.

A (16:04)

Next week is on me, like last week.

B (16:05)

Tomorrow is not going to be like today.

A (16:07)

Exactly. Yeah. That just doesn't happen. And that is a, a unique and challenging environment that very few people can cope with.

B (16:13)

Yeah. When you think about high growth, there's zero room for mediocrity. So you can't hide. Every position is visible and you can't just shoot a two point shot. You have to shoot a three point shot. And not only do you have to shoot a series of three point shots, you got to shoot a three point shot where you're thinking about, how do I shoot a four point shot? And people are going to look at you and say, well, a four point shot has never been shot before. Yeah, exactly. So that's why we have to do it. And then after you shoot the four point shot, you got to shoot the five point shot. That's exactly what you're describing with this more and more and more. And there are people who thrive in that type of environment. And you have to be honest with yourself about not only do I want to work in this kind of environment because you can say, okay, well guess what? Somebody could run a marathon at sprint speed, but you have to run a series of marathons at sprint speed. This is about endurance. This is about being able to do this over a long period of time. And what I find in a high growth organization is it's this sexy, shiny, pretty toy. People want to come in because oh my God, this is this incredible ride that I want to go on. And for the first three months they are an exceptional high contributor. And then that's it. Because they think they can do it and they can for a period of time, but they can't have a constant state of grand finale fireworks over and over and over again. So that's the part too that you have to test for when you're looking for the right people for these types of environments is the endurance factor.

A (17:51)

Totally. I mean, think about the one thing then, right? Cause I think from what you've said there, in terms of how not to get fired, probably one thing is actually starting at the hiring stage, actually that's where you avoid the firing is not once you're in the job is really doing the due diligence on you, your skill set, the company, where the company's goals are, are you aligned, are you aligned culturally? Do you understand how decisions get made, that sort of thing. The other thing that occurred to me as well, Jess Myers, she's a CMO of Veri. I remember she started her job, it's about two years ago, I interviewed on the podcast and I said, what did you do when you started to be successful? And I think she interviewed 50 people across the business and said, tell me one thing I need to know to be successful. And then she cycled back with them or in terms of her and marketing as it was, given her role. And I just thought doing that due diligence up front, thoroughly with all the stakeholders and really understanding what success looks like for them and how things get done and asking the innocent question. Because also when you're new, you're very naive, very excited and like happy to be here. You just don't know where the, you know where all the traps are and you know, where you could fall down.

B (19:01)

Well, I think hiring is a very underrated skill. And what questions are you actually asking to understand if this person has the characteristics, not just the skills, the characteristics necessary to thrive in this environment. And I think anyone can interview well. So the skill is really on the interviewer to understand what are the questions that I need to ask that are going to help me understand whether or not this person can be great here. Because the question is not whether or not they're great, it's whether or not they're great here in this environment that you're going to put them in. And I think this is something we could devote an entire episode to because I think most people don't actually do the interview well. They spend all the time I say to people all the time. You shouldn't be doing any talking. You have to ask open ended questions and you have to ask a question that is actually gonna lead you to the characteristics about the individual. Get them to say things about themselves that they wouldn't say through the typical questions of tell me about your strengths, tell me about your weaknesses. Those are not the questions that we should be asking. Right. So I think key on this one is really understanding how to do an interview in a way that finds the Venn diagram the sweet spot between who this person is and what the company actually needs.

A (20:26)

That's it. And in that overlap is the answer to not getting fired. Fantastic. Well, I've learned it only got to 51, but anyway, next time we'll do the hiring, shall we? Yes, in our next episode.

B (20:37)

I think it's a great idea.

A (20:38)

Sounds good. So from Cory Marchesoto, myself, thank you so much for listening and watching to Unsensor Renegades. We genuinely, genuinely hope that you enjoyed this conversation. Now, we do have one little request. We would love it if you could leave us a review. Reviews are so important to other people discovering this show. So wherever you get your podcast from, go and drop us a review. We would really appreciate it. Thank you.