How to build a brand on TikTok - Sofia Hernandez

Summary

Podcast Summary: Uncensored CMO – "How to Build a Brand on TikTok" Featuring Sophia Hernandez

Introduction

In the July 2, 2025 episode of Uncensored CMO, host Jon Evans delves into the dynamic world of TikTok marketing with special guest Sophia Hernandez, TikTok's Global Head of Business, Marketing, and Partnerships. The episode, titled "How to Build a Brand on TikTok," explores the intricacies of leveraging TikTok for brand growth, the evolving landscape of B2B and B2C marketing, and the transformative impact of authentic, creative engagement on the platform.

Guest Background

Sophia Hernandez brings two decades of marketing expertise to the conversation. With a robust background in traditional advertising, she transitioned into the tech sector, playing a pivotal role in building the SaaS company Suzy. Her diverse experience spans global agency roles, notably with Procter & Gamble in Paris, and a significant tenure at TikTok, where she has been instrumental in shaping the platform's business and marketing strategies over the past five years.

Sophia’s Career Journey

Sophia emphasizes the value of a non-linear career path, advocating for diverse experiences as a foundation for robust marketing strategies. "Our careers are a collection of experiences," she notes (02:12), highlighting her shift from B2C to B2B marketing and her belief that marketing ultimately revolves around connecting with humans, regardless of the segment.

Evolution of TikTok and Marketing Practices

The conversation traces TikTok's meteoric rise over the past five years. Sophia recounts the platform's early days when brands like Elf Cosmetics and American Eagle were pioneers in experimenting with TikTok's unique advertising opportunities. She observes a significant shift in brand expectations, stressing that modern consumers expect brands to interact as relatable individuals. “They want brands to act more like people,” Sophia states (05:37), underscoring the necessity for brands to break free from rigid guidelines to engage authentically.

Brands on TikTok: Authenticity and Creativity

Sophia advocates for brands to embrace creativity and authenticity to thrive on TikTok. Referencing TikTok’s own research, she reveals that "71% of TikTok users want brands on the platform" (07:42). She elaborates that successful brands present themselves as part of the TikTok community, creating content that entertains and engages rather than overtly pushing messages. An example highlighted is Burberry’s innovative logo presentation using flying birds, melding branding with artistry seamlessly.

The Role of Creators vs Advertisers

A significant portion of the discussion contrasts traditional advertisers with TikTok creators. Sophia illustrates how creators like Keith Lee, who can develop engaging content rapidly, exemplify the platform's creative spirit. She emphasizes that brands must "roll up their sleeves and just dive into it and just start playing and experimenting" (13:14), moving away from prolonged planning to embrace spontaneity and real-time engagement.

Impact on Branding and Consumer Journey

Sophia discusses the collapsing traditional marketing funnel, where engagement often leads directly to conversion without the extended stages previously necessary. She cites how entertaining content on TikTok not only builds brand awareness but also drives immediate purchasing decisions. “The funnel is collapsing,” she explains (09:59), highlighting the platform’s ability to foster deeper connections swiftly.

Challenges for Large vs Small Brands

The conversation delves into the disparities between large, established brands and smaller, challenger brands on TikTok. While large brands grapple with legacy processes and stringent brand guidelines, smaller brands benefit from flexibility and an entrepreneurial mindset. Sophia reflects, “Challenger brands are just a little bit more flexible... very used to putting their brand in the hands of creators” (17:39), illustrating how nimble brands can innovate more effectively on the platform.

Leadership and Organizational Changes for Marketing

Sophia underscores the importance of evolving leadership and organizational structures to keep pace with TikTok’s fast-moving environment. She advocates for “reverse mentorship” where experienced leaders learn from younger, more digitally native team members. Additionally, she stresses integrating legal teams early in the creative process to foster collaboration rather than act as gatekeepers. “Legal should be with you at the brief stage so they feel invested in what you're doing” (29:56).

Notable Quotes

• Sophia Hernandez (00:36): “He was in a coma for three weeks and wasn't actually able to attend, and he's never been to Cannes since. So this is 2008, and so I brought him here this year with me.”

• John Evans (04:05): “I have a theory about B2B marketing actually that it's actually more human than B2C.”

• Sophia Hernandez (07:42): “71% of TikTok users want brands on the platform. They say this is a place for brands.”

• Sophia Hernandez (09:59): “The funnel is collapsing.”

• Sophia Hernandez (13:14): “Brands have to roll up their sleeves and just dive into it and just start playing and experimenting.”

• Sophia Hernandez (17:39): “Challenger brands are just a little bit more flexible.”

• Sophia Hernandez (21:06): “We've created an economy. It's probably the size of a pretty significant country.”

Conclusion

The episode concludes with actionable insights for marketers looking to harness TikTok's potential. Sophia advises embracing experimentation, prioritizing authenticity over rigid planning, and fostering collaborative relationships across organizational departments. She reinforces that TikTok is not merely a social media platform but a revolutionary space for content consumption and brand engagement.

Sophia’s leadership lessons emphasize adaptability and continuous learning, advocating for a symbiotic relationship between seasoned marketers and the fresh perspectives of newer generations. As brands navigate the evolving digital landscape, the partnership between creativity and data-driven strategies on platforms like TikTok will be paramount for sustained success.

Final Thoughts

Jon Evans wraps up the episode by reflecting on the invaluable insights shared by Sophia Hernandez, encouraging listeners to adopt a more authentic, flexible approach to marketing on TikTok. The discussion not only highlights the platform’s transformative impact on branding but also underscores the broader shifts in marketing paradigms necessitated by digital evolution.

Transcript

[Sophia Hernandez]

Foreign.

[John Evans]

Ladies and gentlemen, welcome back to the uncensored cmo. Now we're going to be talking this episode about a new bit of research with TikTok, the long and the short form of it. And I'm joined by the very best person to discuss this with me, Sophia Hernandez, who is the global head of business, marketing and partnerships for TikTok. Welcome to the show.

[Sophia Hernandez]

Thank you for having me. Hi, everyone.

[John Evans]

Now we're here in Cannes, obviously, you know, a lovely place to spend some time together. And I discovered that you've got a quite a story about when your husband discovered he had won a lion.

[Sophia Hernandez]

Yes. So this is my husband, who's a creative director at an agency. His first time at Cannes. Okay. However, back in 2008, he was actually in a terrible car accident in May of 2008, and in June won a lion. Okay. For an incredible spot he did with Martin Scorsese. I won't go further into it, but he was in a coma for three weeks and wasn't actually able to attend, and he's never been to Cannes since. So this is 2008, and so I brought him here this year with me. Oh, he's here this year? Yes, he is. And we just took a photo on the red carpet, which he will then Photoshop his award into.

[John Evans]

Oh, I love that. So he recovered from the coma just in time to find out that he'd actually won. Did it?

[Sophia Hernandez]

He did. I know everyone jokes whether or not he came out and asked about the lion, whether. But no. Yeah, it was quite an ordeal. But he's amazing now. That was so many years ago. And what's crazy is that this is his first time here.

[John Evans]

Oh.

[Sophia Hernandez]

So it's a special moment.

[John Evans]

That's a lovely moment. What's it like being married to an ecd, then? Do you go home and talk about ideas together?

[Sophia Hernandez]

So we're definitely the couple that watches the super bowl for the ads.

[John Evans]

Yeah.

[Sophia Hernandez]

The kids think in advertising and marketing, it's funny we have those conversations like, oh, this could be an ad, or I could see this doing this. But, yeah, we just. We love creativity and I think we love this industry, both of us, very much. He's also an artist and a painter, so he definitely does things in that arena as well.

[John Evans]

Now we're going to come and talk about TikTok, of course, but just describe your journey to here. What's been your career history?

[Sophia Hernandez]

Oh, wow. So I've been in the business for about two decades, and I fundamentally believe that our careers are a collection of experiences and so when I hire, in fact, I tend to hire people that have not had a linear journey or linear path because I really believe when you can pivot into different industries or even different roles, that really makes you strong. Right. It means that you can think very diversely. It means that you can like really withstand any situation and that you're always on the forefront of what's happening. So to talk about my own career, I started in advertising. So in a very traditional kind of start to my career, I love people, I love understanding what makes us tick. And it was either therapist or marketer. Right. I had to. Those were the two paths.

[John Evans]

I'm kind of closer, a closer fit than you might think actually.

[Sophia Hernandez]

So agency world, mostly global. For a long time lived in Paris, worked with Procter and Gammell running the CEMIA region. And then I decided to really move into tech. And I helped a CEO named Matt Breden build a SaaS business called Suzy, which was really innovating market research as we know it and bringing things into more of a real time space and practice. No more 16 month research projects. You could literally get answers within hours. So I got really excited about that, built that business and that's what really started to build my interest in B2B. Because after my B2C experiences building the SaaS business, I realized that we're all just marketing to humans. Right. And so like, while B2B kind of has this reputation of being like a white paper with like number signs and dollar signs and B2C is the more creative side, that's not TR. And we see that at TikTok, in the end, everyone just wants to be entertained. Right. And they want you to capture their attention in a really intriguing way, whether it's business or consumer.

[John Evans]

I have a theory about B2B marketing actually that it's actually more human than B2C. If you think about B2B. Right. You're often dealing with groups of people directly, aren't you?

[Sophia Hernandez]

Right.

[John Evans]

And often quite a small number of people in terms of making decisions. And the decisions they're making are usually very big ones, you know, not which toothpaste to buy. It's kind of which ad campaign to commission, which where to spend my media money. And that's a very, very human, you know, kind of interaction. And yet we tend to treat it like it's annual financial statements, you know, rather than correct, you know, the emotional decision that it is.

[Sophia Hernandez]

Well, at my time at TikTok, what we've been doing B2B on is really teaching the industry how to evolve their marketing practices. So it's a really unique B2B role. Right. Thank God. I have the experience of being a marketer and have worked on campaigns and worked with the biggest brands in the world because we are in a pretty significant shift. Right. If you think about what social media did to the industry, what, 15 years ago, this is very different. People are expecting very different things from brands today. They're essentially expecting brands to act more like people. Right. They want to engage with brands like they're one of them. And that's a very difficult thing for brands to do. They've built these very safe brand guidelines. They have legal counsel barriers that they have to go through. And so there's a big question mark with brands. And TikTok's only about six years old. I've been here five years, actually. Celebrated my anniversary this weekend. So five years here. And I've watched the evolution of the industry as TikTok has entered the space.

[John Evans]

So what's changed those five years that's very early to, you know, to be involved in TikTok. What was it like then and how does it compare now?

[Sophia Hernandez]

Yeah, so back then it was like, hey, listen, there's something new here. Pay attention to us, right? That was really like 20, 20 year 2021 was like, okay, TikTok, we see you. Let's like, throw some experimental budget at you. Let's try this thing out. And there were some early adopters like Elf Cosmetics or American Eagle or eos, and they really got it. And I think what those early adopters and those CMOs really understood was they had to be in it to understand it. And today there are still a lot of marketing leaders and their teams who are actually not on the platform, but yet still trying to communicate with our audiences on the platform. And I always say we're very good as marketers at being students of culture. Right? We commission studies, we have our teams that are experts, we have our agency partners, but we're terrible at being practitioners of culture. And so my call to action to the community right now is like, get in there. You have to be where your audiences are and really, truly experience what they're experiencing to be able to connect with them.

[John Evans]

I suppose on the challenges of that is that the people that are buying media on TikTok are not necessarily the people that are using TikTok. I mean, I did a presentation this week with Alex Earl called Creators vs Advertisers, and we used the research that we've done together. But it's quite funny because When I was at home. My youngest daughter, Lily, is a massive, massive TikTok follower. And most of the things we do in life, actually our holidays and what we buy, seems to be influenced by who she's currently following. Anyway, she said, daddy, what are you going to present at Cannes? And I said, oh, it's like this battle between advertisers versus creators. Who has the biggest difference? She goes, duh. Not even a question. I mean, like, come on, who would buy from an advert? You know, in her world it was, you know, not even a question. And, you know, but, but me probably as a sort of stereotypical person that might be making a decision to invest in the platform versus her, you know, there's a big difference, isn't there? How do you, how do you help advertisers and people that are spending money on the platform understand the role that it plays?

[Sophia Hernandez]

Well, what's interesting is we did our own research to understand how the user community felt about brands on the platform. And this. It still blows my mind every time it comes out of my mouth. 71% of TikTok users want brands on the platform. They say this is a place for brands. This isn't an age where everyone's trying to shut off ads, where 50% of people say that advertising is boring. The secret is for brands that they have to show up like one of us in the community. Right. So if brands can show up like a creator, if brands can show up and entertain and engage and just not put it, push a message out at, then they're very welcomed on the platform. One of my favorite things to see, and I'm sure you've seen this too, is when you see an ad and you scroll into the comments and people are like, wait, I just watched an ad and enjoyed it. Or wait, that's an ad that was hilarious. When they get so excited about the content, they just watch because it's coming from a brand and there's this surprise and delight.

[John Evans]

It's funny, one of my colleagues, Orlando Wood, wrote this incredible book called Lookout, which is all about advertising and how he positions it in the left brain and right brain hemisphere. Right brain. Advertising is what captures our attention, makes us feel something. I mean, he's a massive fan of Tick Tock and he. Almost to the extent that he, he would see TikTok as like the new TV.

[Sophia Hernandez]

Yeah.

[John Evans]

In terms of. That's where you tell stories, that's where you engage with people. That's where, you know, you entertain and make people laugh and, and the power of that you know, I mean, he calls it kind of right brain features versus left brain. And right brain would be storytelling and humor and music and drama and characters and. And those kind of things. And I think, I mean, going to the report that we've just launched together, long and short form of it, everybody download it so you can get a copy. It's all free. A lot of work's gone into it. But it's been fascinating, hasn't it? Because it reminds us again the power of entertainment. And if we can see ourselves as entertainers rather than kind of, you know, always be selling. I mean, the bit that actually really struck me as I was kind of looking at the data, is we tend to think of the long and the short as being, well, the brand building's over here, and that's kind of like, you know, the entertaining stuff and then the. In the short term, we do all the kind of serious, you know, selling, but actually the entertaining content was more effective at making people convert and buy as well. So it just goes to show, if you do. If you do great content, then you win in both the long and the shorts.

[Sophia Hernandez]

You're making a really great point. And what we're seeing on the platform is when it comes to the consumer journey, that funnel is collapsing, right? Like, people may not intentionally be here to buy, but they're so engaged by a creator or, you know, a brand, even doing something very engaging, entertaining, touching my heart, making me laugh, et cetera. It makes me lean in in a way that I haven't before. Right. And so I think there's a huge opportunity for brands to lean into this. Let's be honest, though, it's not how they've operated in the past, right? If we think. You mentioned television, if we think about how we've engaged our agency partners or even internally, our colleagues to prepare for putting a message out there in mass. It's big production budgets, it's months and months of planning. It's a long process. And I just had two creators on stage, Keith Lee and Logan Moffatt, where I briefed them on the spot. Keith, a car company wants to do a commercial. These are the three things they want to hit. Go. And within seconds, he had a concept, right? And he has 17 million plus followers. He. For those of you that don't know Keith Lee, like, he's a food reviewer and eats food in his car, right? It's not highly stylized like we're used to in the industry. And he's. He has the power to transform businesses and he's done it over and over again, all over the world. That power is the power brands have. They have that level of influence, but their communities and their audiences are looking for them to connect in a new and different way. And Keith puts his phone on his dashboard and records himself.

[John Evans]

Yeah, I know all about this because my probably my first experience of kind of TikTok creators with, with my daughter Lilia was crumbl cookies. Do you know crumble cookies?

[Sophia Hernandez]

Yes, of course.

[John Evans]

They're iconic, aren't they? And she just showed me these videos and it was exactly what you said. It's just literally a phone on a dashboard and it will be somebody who's just gone to crumble cookies. And they're reviewing live, you know, kind of taking, you know, and giving a review on the taste and the, and the, you know, the colors and the flavors and all that kind of thing. And then literally when I'm flying to New York for business, she'll send me the TikTok and go, I want you to pick up some crumble cookies on this day because that's when they come out because they refresh every single day. Then I get all the packaging. And I remember I had to fly through, you know, to go through security and on the plane and get them on the train and the car.

[Sophia Hernandez]

Yeah.

[John Evans]

And then the amount of times people stopped me and said, oh yeah, that's crumble cookies.

[Sophia Hernandez]

Can I have a sense of that?

[John Evans]

It just shows how the kind of like the online kind of, you know, the offline and online kind of connect like that.

[Sophia Hernandez]

So, yeah, it's incredible. So my husband, I mentioned earlier, he's in the industry and he said to me one day, it's like I have to relearn everything I've been taught about marketing and advertising because it's so different today. Like you're taught a beginning, a middle and an end. Right. And we know even from the research that storytelling can start at the end first. Right. You capture someone's attention and, you know, it's moving so fast. And what it's requiring of brands and their agency partners is to like roll up their sleeves and just dive into it and just start playing and experimenting. But again, that's not our behavior either. We're planners, right? We work within our brand guidelines. And the community today is like, no, just get out here, just show me what you got. Play around.

[John Evans]

I love that you're exactly right. Because most of us are kind of grown up with the playbook and the brand guidelines and the nine month process.

[Sophia Hernandez]

And approvals, by the way, legal is very happy with those brand guidelines. Right?

[John Evans]

Exactly, exactly. And yet working with creators, you've got to kind of dispense with a lot of that, haven't you, and kind of give them the platform and the opportunity to. In their own style.

[Sophia Hernandez]

Yes.

[John Evans]

And the freedom to go. I remember when we were chatting to Alex earlier in our presentation, I'm like, well, what one top tip would you give? And she goes, you just got to let me run with it, because I don't have three weeks to go and kind of get through your, you know, brand approval process. You need to give me the. The broad brief and then let me create in an authentic way myself.

[Sophia Hernandez]

Right. I mean, Logan, today on stage, I asked him how often he creates. He said three times. He posts three times a day. And to a brand that would, like, blow their mind. Right. Like, I have to create creative content for three, three times a day. What is that going to cost me? How am I going to do that? I don't have the team. It's not like it used to be. And that it's moving so fast that brands and agencies really need to jump on and get comfortable with being uncomfortable.

[John Evans]

Totally. Now, you mentioned earlier about the branding as well. And this is another thing in the report that came out about branding in the first two seconds.

[Sophia Hernandez]

Yes.

[John Evans]

But I think what people think when they think of branding is we're going to put the logo in the opening shot. If you go back to sort of your TV productions, like we open on the logo pack or whatever. But what we found in the research is super interesting, is that that wasn't actually that effective. What was effective is having like a voiceover or a bit of music or you had a character or all your product or brand was embedded naturally into the story. And kind of those things were the kind of features that you know of a TikTok that captured attention and creative.

[Sophia Hernandez]

Yes. And when I read that in the research and when I hear you say that, immediately I think realness and authenticity. Right. So it's not forced. It's not. But I like to show a TikTok when I talk about the research and what we found of Burberry, where they just had these birds kind of fly into the air and form the Burberry logo. So it is the logo, but it's done in a creative, artistic way. You've, like, you've certainly got my attention. I want to see what happens with these birds and what they're doing. And so there are creative ways. This was one of the most insightful parts of the research for me is that branding matters and branding early matters, but it's how you do it.

[John Evans]

Totally. And you referenced it earlier as well. But I think the, maybe what more traditional marketers struggle to realize is there is permission as well. There's almost an understanding that, you know, creators are partnering with brands. We know that, so you don't have to kind of hide that. And you know, what Alex has done for Poppy is amazing. I mean, Poppy that sold for incredible $2 billion.

[Sophia Hernandez]

Right.

[John Evans]

Five years after Alison appeared on Shark Tank with her husband nine months pregnant. I mean, it's just like the most wild journey. But they've really, they really understood that working with Craters and giving them that license to talk about the brand gave them a huge advantage.

[Sophia Hernandez]

Right, but that's, it's easier for up and coming brands. In fact, SMBs on the platform are masterful at it, Right. Because they don't have the resources that bigger brands have and they just kind of lean into experimentation. It's naturally. Right. Like it's an entrepreneurial mindset to creativity. The bigger brands struggle with it because they've been doing the same thing for a long time. So we're in it, we're in a time of transformation and change is hard for everyone. But I do see brands starting to lean in and starting to really get it. There were the early adopters, but now we have more and more brands that are like, I get it, I need to be on TikTok. Show me how.

[John Evans]

I mean, I love this because like, you know, traditionally the big brands have got all the advantages, right, in terms of distribution, awareness, brand equity, all that kind of thing. But I mean, the data really struck me and I think there was a chart in the report that showed the difference between branding early for an established brand that was using kind of TV cut downs versus creator LED content. And you see this boost when you, when you kind of brand early in terms of awareness, it's up sort of two or three times for brand leaders. But for challenger brands, when they use creative content and brand early, it's like three or four times the impact in terms of brand awareness. So it looks like there's a real kind of secret sauce here. If you're, you know, you're a challenger brand, you can, you can go much further with creators than more established brands who probably benefit a bit more from kind of linking to their more traditional assets in terms of TV and doing kind of cut down aversions. So it just goes to show, depending on where you are as a brand, you can, you can take advantage.

[Sophia Hernandez]

Well, I think to your point earlier with Poppy Challenger brands are just a little bit more flexible. Right. They're not bogged down with the way we've done things. Well, this is the way we do things here. Right. And so they're more flexible and they're very used to putting their brand in the hands of creators and letting them mold it like clay. Right. That's very scary to bigger brands who, you know, are 100 years old, 40 years old, 70 years old, and have spent a lot of time really like, shaping their brand. The biggest challenge is going to be how willing are brands to let go. Right. How willing are they to let the community really take control of their brand? And I think once they can lean into that, it's magic.

[John Evans]

It totally is. Yeah. I mean, you talked about, you know, creatives with 17, 18 million followers and Alex has got 7 or 8 million. It's incredible how someone today can become a creator and create that kind of following in a relatively short space of time and earn a pretty amazing living. I mean, this is something I think some, not everyone realizes about TikTok is you are creating an economy. You know, it's probably the size of probably a pretty significant country when you add it all together. But. But how big is the kind of economy that, you know, TikTok creates?

[Sophia Hernandez]

When you think about our shops, business and E commerce and the. That's role playing. Today there's a brand called Canva Beauty in the US and this is like your everyday entrepreneur building a beauty product that they love. Last year, that business made $1 million in the first few hours on Black Friday through TikTok Live E Commerce. Second year this year, in fact, in 2024, they upped it to 2 million within a few hours. That is what's happening today for businesses. And I would say, yes, the product is incredible. But you know what's even more incredible? How down to earth that CEO and founder is and how she shows up for her community on a regular basis. She's not overly polished. Sometimes she shows herself getting out of bed and going to the gym and admits that she's having a bad day. It's not like, let me show up as the CEO and founder and just to make a comparison, the way larger brands can do this, I'll give you a concrete example. Elf Cosmetics, Corey Marchisotto, the cmo. She is regularly in the platform and she's listening and she's reading comments. She realized that the community started to talk about a product that was being discontinued. Right. And they were in uproar, like, thousands of people talking about it. And she said, let me run down the hall, see if the CEO will come and do a TikTok live right now. Right. We're not going to run this through legal. We're not going to talk to our comms department because they're very confident in who they are as a brand. So she grabs CEO, puts them on a TikTok live. And he's just listening. He's like, I'm here to listen to you guys. What's up? I'm the CEO of Elf Cosmetics, and do you know what that does for their followers and their community? They're like, thank you. You're not some big corporate structure. Like, you actually do care about the people that are buying your products. And I say this a lot. People today want brands to show up like people. And if we keep talking about them, it's like our customer base, our. No, they're people that you want to buy your product and they want to engage with another person. So how do we show up that way? And that's the beauty of TikTok is it just. It's like it's created this kind of level playing field for everyone, even creators.

[John Evans]

Yeah. I mean, it's a really good point about it. I hadn't thought about that. But you're right. The insight you're going to get live from all your audience is feeding back to you in real time about what they think about your product. That's worth a lot.

[Sophia Hernandez]

What a missed opportunity if they hadn't done that.

[John Evans]

And something I think people forget as well. When I met Alison and talked about her journey on Poppy, I mean, it's a wild story. So, you know, presenting on Shark Tank, nine months pregnant, and then, well, four years later, they're on their first super bowl, and then five years later, they've done an exit to PepsiCo for 2 billion, which is just, like, insane. But I said to her, what's the one tip you would give anyone else? And she goes, get on TikTok from day one and tell your story. And I think we forget this. I mean, obviously we can park with creators, of course. And that's amazing because they're giving us, you know, access to their audience and, you know, a scale, but actually using anyone as an individual, there's no barrier to you getting on there. And her. Her initial TikTok, just tell it. Just telling the story of how she won on Shark Tank, which is an amazing thing to talk about. Right. And it's very raw. It's very like me home, wearing my normal clothes, you know, just going, hey, everyone out there, whoever's listening, I just got a deal on Shark Tank that's been tens of millions of views. Just that. And I think she's got, I think over a billion, you know, collective views in the five years.

[Sophia Hernandez]

But yeah, I mean, I said I grew up in the ad industry. I was trained right in the old school way of marketing. I don't even know if in universities these books have been updated. I think we're still learning kind of the old school traditional way of marketing. And the reality is, like, over the last five years, especially because of platforms like TikTok, everything has changed. And what Allison has done really well is, yeah, just show up as herself. Her struggles, her joys, her good moments, her bad moments. And that vulnerability is hard not only for brands, but for people. And so when people really lean into that, the community's like, yes, I feel you. I had that day yesterday. Right.

[John Evans]

So let's say, let's say for argument's sake, asking for a friend, right? Let's say you're middle aged, you're getting into TikTok for the first time. What are your top tips to kind of.

[Sophia Hernandez]

Okay, getting into TikTok to watch or to make.

[John Evans]

To make. So on the podcast, for example, we've, we've been making this podcast almost six years.

[Sophia Hernandez]

Okay.

[John Evans]

And we, we started on TikTok about three months ago. Fortunately, by the way, my top tip actually for, unless you is employ somebody. We've got new guy Sam hired out.

[Sophia Hernandez]

Yeah.

[John Evans]

So yeah, top tip, employ somebody who knows what they're doing. But anyway, if you can't do that, what would be your advice to somebody that's coming to the platform for the first time and wants to make you?

[Sophia Hernandez]

Yeah, I think low hanging fruit is definitely employ somebody that knows and just watch what they do. Right. I think Duolingo did this really well. Like, they're incredible on the platform. They have a tiny social team. They actually, I, I've, I interviewed them on a podcast recently. They found the mascot costume, the Duolingo owl in a closet and they just started playing. Right. And then they started posting that content and that took off and there you go. That's their creative strategy. Right. So I think one, experimentation, two, don't overthink it. Just start, be vulnerable. Right. Just start doing things like you. I can imagine you waking up, picking up the phone, just being like, oh God, I've got three podcasts today and I was out all night last night. Bye, guys. Right.

[John Evans]

That is actually true.

[Sophia Hernandez]

You look great.

[John Evans]

Yeah, thank you.

[Sophia Hernandez]

But it's that it's the stuff you wouldn't normally put out there. That's what people like because it makes them connect with you on a different level. Then you're not like performing, you're actually just being one of us.

[John Evans]

I love that because again, you're not just trying to recreate your TV ad or recreate your company website. You're doing something that's authentic and different and using the platform for the behind the scenes stuff that people wouldn't otherwise get to see.

[Sophia Hernandez]

Another thing I'll add is we historically have thought about our audiences. We look at it from a demographic mindset. If I want to talk to middle aged people who are within this raised, who live in this area, that puts you into a pigeonhole when you think about creative execution. Right. If you're thinking about people who love podcasts or love history or love marketing. So then you're going to talk to those communities in a very specific way. Right. Like, let's get out of the mindset of demographics and actually connect with people based on their likes and interests and passions. And that gives a brand so, so much Runway.

[John Evans]

So one question to ask. Who. Who's on TikTok? Because I guess I probably got a dated impression of it. But I mean, you know, brands in the UK like Little Moons became very popular with kind of teenagers.

[Sophia Hernandez]

Yes.

[John Evans]

And that kind of blew up. So in my head it's a sort of a probably young teenage kind of platform. But is that true now or has the platform evolved?

[Sophia Hernandez]

Yes. And right. It's a plus. So it is known as the Gen Z platform and we have plenty of that audience and they keep us fresh and amazing. But our highest growing segment is 35 plus and there are so many creators even that fall into that category. The old gays are really fun to watch if you don't know them. And you know, like, my parents are on TikTok. I think it's a platform for everyone because it really is like whatever you're into, there is content there for you. And the algorithm is masterful at figuring out what you like and just continue to like experiment with serving that up to you.

[John Evans]

Someone the other day actually was saying to me if it was on panel earlier this week, that with Netflix, you have to go on and spend it. You spend. I think it's something like 50 hours. A year of most people's time is wasted or spent just searching, finding content.

[Sophia Hernandez]

I haven't heard stuff. 50 hours.

[John Evans]

50 hours a year on, the average person spends searching and trying to find content to watch on Netflix with TikTok. The algorithm does that for you.

[Sophia Hernandez]

It does. And we talk about TikTok as entertainment and I think there's still a misconception there. We're not a social media platform. You don't come here to see like what your neighbor did on their vacation or what your niece is doing, how your niece is doing in college. It's not really about connecting with your friends and family. It's about consuming content. Right. And content that's really entertaining, engaging, teaches you something, etc. And so it is a more passive experience. But people are highly engaged. It is a single screen experience.

[John Evans]

The other thing I've noticed, I think you might have done a campaign that orientated around this, was also using TikTok to search for the how tos. I mean, I think I remember there's some guy wanting to kind of get fit or something and then he goes onto TikTok and he finds exactly the right influencer in exactly the right sport to help exactly him kind of, you know, overcome his challenge as well.

[Sophia Hernandez]

I mean, we love to say the world finds its POV on TikTok, right? Like whatever you are into, there's content for you. And yes, the algorithm knows how to bring that to you.

[John Evans]

Now, I wanted to ask you about, there's a lovely article I read that you wrote the other day which had a phrase that really stood out to me, which was romancing the creative versus proving the value, which I just thought beautifully encapsulates the struggle that many marketers have when, I mean, I talk to so many marketers and do panels and discussions and so on, and there's this big tension between kind of making the kind of work that they believe in their heart of hearts they want to make to make a difference for the brand. But what they're being asked to do and what's easier to measure is often the kind of more short term, kind of serious bit and the tension that exists between the two. And how do you put a value on the kind of work? I know you wrote to that, so tell me a bit about that.

[Sophia Hernandez]

I'm on my soapbox. You really touched on something passionate about.

[John Evans]

This that runs through almost every conversation I have with every marketer.

[Sophia Hernandez]

So, yeah, it's the same. So I partner with marketers, small businesses all over the world. Every marketer is being squeezed to prove ROI on every single dollar they're spending. And what's happening in turn is they're paying their agencies Less. And they're investing in creativity less and less. Right? Because creativity has been deemed as this thing that is very expensive. Again, because that's what we did in the past, right? Big TV budgets. Creativity is the most powerful thing a brand can do to connect with their audiences. And we need to invest in it versus stop investing in it. And with all the new technology, with what I just, we just talked about with creators, it's not hard to do and it doesn't have to be expensive. But we can't sacrifice creativity, right, for roi. I don't think it's one or the other.

[John Evans]

How do you make that case inside an organization? Because I think everyone would agree with that and everyone would, would, would, you know, cheer you on when you say that. And I think that the, where the rubber hits the road is how do you convince the other people in the organization who are often the accountants, the sales people, the logistics people who don't naturally kind of value creativity in the same way that we do.

[Sophia Hernandez]

Three things. One, CMOs. Not all. So don't get offended. Not all. But some have to get better at telling the bottom line story. Right? Like what is your impact to the bottom line? I feel like when you master that, then you can master the conversations you're having with the CEO, the CFO, etc. Right. Two, we have to change the way we approach creating marketing, creativity, media, etc. It has to be more real time. We have to lean into emerging technologies. We have to change the relationship we have with our agencies. We have to trust them more and we have to lean into creators and not only as people that are in our content, but like are consulting us and helping us see the way to the future. Right. And three, I would say you have to change the relationship you have internally with your cross functional stakeholders. And so your legal person should not be the last person in a long process of approvals and production, et cetera. They should be with you at the brief stage so they feel invested in what you're doing in the work. We do that back at, back at our camp and they get the legal team so excited to be a part of these campaigns and, and they're like, oh, that's what you want a few million dollars for, right? Like they, then they get it. Duolingo's done the same thing. They pulled their legal person into a TikTok and joke about the dynamic, like bring them along the relation that everyone has to feel invested because this is the brand, everyone owns the brand. No matter what discipline you sit in.

[John Evans]

That'S a great bit. Love Legal, I think, is get to love Legal.

[Sophia Hernandez]

Yeah, Love Legal is definitely advice.

[John Evans]

I mean, if as a system. Well, I have the same thing actually, because actually our GC approached me and said, john, how do I get people to change their perception of what I do from the person that's stopping everything from happening, the person that's enabling.

[Sophia Hernandez]

They don't want to be that person.

[John Evans]

No one wants to be that, but no one wants to be the police.

[Sophia Hernandez]

Right, right.

[John Evans]

You know, we're marketers. We're supposed to have an understanding of how people think and act. So, you know, use the same.

[Sophia Hernandez]

You should have them on the podcast.

[John Evans]

Yeah, absolutely. We'll have a legal edition of the podcast to. Yeah. Marketing Times Legal and what that can do.

[Sophia Hernandez]

The power of.

[John Evans]

The power of marketing and Legal together completely. Maybe. To wrap up, I'd love to ask your advice on kind of leadership lessons because, you know, as a senior marketer in a big organization, we have responsibilities to lead as well. I know you wrote something about kind of leadership lessons for a new era. Tell me about that.

[Sophia Hernandez]

What has been happening over the last few years is a lot of us kind of more tenured people have been just complaining about new. The new class coming in. Right. Like, oh, Gen Z doesn't like to blah, blah, blah. And ah, they don't work as hard. The reality is like, we'll stay fresh if we can evolve and change. It's like this whole thing we've been talking about, marketers have to evolve. Leaders have to evolve too. Right. We did things one way for the last few decades. Like they're bringing in fresh perspectives. That is the future. So how do we adapt to kind of reverse mentorship? How do we learn from them about what leadership of the future looks like? Like it's a meeting in the middle.

[John Evans]

I love that framing, actually, because it's easy to slip into. I've been doing this for 30 years.

[Sophia Hernandez]

100% I know best.

[John Evans]

Can't teach me. You know, reverse mentoring is quite clever, isn't it? Because it kind of works both ways then. Because equally there's. There's learning from experience and then there's learning from freshness.

[Sophia Hernandez]

Totally. That's what I mean. It's like meet in the middle. It's not extreme one way or the other. Like, let's help each other.

[John Evans]

Yeah, Sounds good. All right. Thank you so much, Sophia, for the funeral. I love talking to you about this and you give me lots of inspiration and. Yeah. More Ideas for uncensored CMO TikTok as well, yes. Hopefully we'll see more of that coming.

[Sophia Hernandez]

All right, thank you so much.

[John Evans]

Thank you very much for listening or watching Uncensored cmo. I hope you enjoyed that. If you did, please do hit the subscribe button wherever you get your podcast. If you're watching, hit subscribe there as well. I'd also love to get a review. Reviews make a big difference on other people discovering the show, so please do leave a review wherever you get your podcast. If you want to contact me, you can do I'm over on XcensoredCMO or on LinkedIn where I'm under my own name, John Evans. Thanks for listening and watching. I'll see you next time.