How Tony’s Chocolonely is breaking the mould with their Dean of Dopeness (CMO) Sadira Furlow

Summary

Podcast Summary: Uncensored CMO - Episode on Tony’s Chocolonely with Sadira Furlow

Release Date: December 11, 2024

Introduction

In this episode of Uncensored CMO, host Jon Evans delves into the innovative marketing strategies of Tony’s Chocolonely by interviewing their Dean of Dopeness, Sadira Furlow. Sadira shares her unique role within the company, her career trajectory, and how Tony’s is redefining marketing within the chocolate industry through purpose-driven initiatives and bold campaigns.

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1. Sadira Furlow's Career Journey

Sadira Furlow’s path to becoming the Dean of Dopeness at Tony’s Chocolonely is both unconventional and inspiring. Initially aspiring to be an orthopedic surgeon, Sadira's career took a significant turn when she joined Leo Burnett, working on Marlboro campaigns. This experience ignited her passion for advertising, transforming what was meant to be a side pursuit into a 16-year career.

“I fell in love with ideas. I knew nothing about advertising, and it was like stepping into the black box of magic.” [03:35]

She then transitioned to PepsiCo, where she spearheaded major projects for Mountain Dew, including groundbreaking Super Bowl campaigns and successful product launches like Baja Blast. Her move from a well-established FMCG giant to a financial tech startup, Happy Money, marked a significant pivot, showcasing her adaptability and willingness to embrace new challenges.

“I got really good at being uncomfortable and a part of change.” [13:18]

2. Marketing Strategies at Tony’s Chocolonely

At Tony’s, Sadira oversees the brand’s marketing with a focus on aligning every decision with the company’s mission to eradicate slavery in the cocoa industry. Operating with a lean budget, Tony’s emphasizes storytelling, earned media, and strategic partnerships to amplify its message without relying heavily on traditional advertising.

“Our marketing budget is 3% of our net revenue. There's nowhere for me to hide.” [30:29]

3. Mission-Driven Decision Making

Tony’s commitment to being an impact-first company profoundly influences its marketing strategies. Every brand decision is evaluated based on its ability to further the mission of creating fair and ethical practices within the chocolate industry.

“Every decision we make comes back to that commitment that we are going to change lives of the cocoa farmers in West Africa.” [28:13]

This mission-centric approach ensures that marketing efforts are not just about selling chocolate but about advocating for significant social change.

4. Innovative Campaigns and Storytelling

Tony’s is renowned for its bold and unconventional marketing campaigns that challenge industry norms. One notable example is their Super Bowl ad featuring a puppy’s head on a dog’s body with baby feet—a creative endeavor that broke testing norms but achieved viral success.

“We were like, the do consumer is going to love it. Sold it in, got out the door, launched it on Super Bowl, broke the Internet.” [03:35]

Another impactful campaign was the Fair Alternative, where Tony’s parodied famous chocolate brands like Milka and KitKat to highlight ethical production methods. This bold move even resulted in a cease-and-desist letter from Mondelez, underscoring Tony’s fearless approach.

“When you are being bold and our strategy around driving change is building awareness... sometimes you gotta go in the backyard and knock on the door.” [34:34]

5. Brand Voice and Copywriting

Tony’s exceptional copywriting is a cornerstone of its brand identity. With a dedicated copywriter, Suze, Tony’s maintains a consistent and engaging tone that balances serious social issues with a sense of humor and accessibility.

“The copy you see for Tony’s, somehow has come through [Suze]. She is the most magical thing about the brand.” [40:22]

This unique voice ensures that the brand communicates its mission without alienating or overwhelming consumers, making the message both impactful and relatable.

6. Collaborations and Partnerships

Strategic partnerships play a vital role in Tony’s marketing ecosystem. Collaborations with esteemed organizations like the Washington Post and events like Glastonbury amplify Tony’s message and extend its reach organically.

“We have this collaboration around Start a Conversation and these uniquely designed bars that are intended to spark conversation.” [43:27]

These alliances not only enhance Tony’s visibility but also reinforce its commitment to transparency and ethical practices.

7. Challenges and Lessons Learned

Transitioning from large corporations to a purpose-driven, lean budget environment posed significant challenges for Sadira. She emphasizes the importance of humility, adaptability, and continuous learning in navigating these shifts.

“I got really good at being uncomfortable and a part of change.” [13:18]

Furthermore, Sadira discusses the psychological impact of taking a sabbatical, highlighting the struggle to adapt to a life without constant productivity pressures and the importance of learning to rest.

“There's a feeling of you're being lazy. Come on, get on with it. Sort it out.” [21:26]

8. Future Directions and Innovation

Looking ahead, Tony’s aims to continue pushing boundaries through product innovation and expanding its influence within the industry. Sadira envisions a future where mainstream brands adopt Tony’s ethical practices, reducing the need for Tony’s to lead solo.

“I want to get to the point where I can actually drop the chocolate off of the brand because we are no longer lonely.” [49:03]

Additionally, personalized products and interactive campaigns are on the horizon, further engaging consumers and fostering a deeper connection with the brand’s mission.

9. Conclusion

Sadira Furlow’s leadership at Tony’s Chocolonely exemplifies how purpose-driven marketing can drive both social change and business success. Through bold campaigns, strategic storytelling, and unwavering commitment to ethical practices, Tony’s stands out as a pioneering challenger brand in the chocolate industry.

“The biggest standout is that it's all real. That what you see about Tony's as a brand... every word of it is true.” [50:07]

Tony’s Chocolonely not only offers delicious chocolate but also serves as a beacon for corporate responsibility and impactful marketing.

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Notable Quotes

1. “I fell in love with ideas. I knew nothing about advertising, and it was like stepping into the black box of magic.” – Sadira Furlow [03:35]
2. “Our marketing budget is 3% of our net revenue. There's nowhere for me to hide.” – Sadira Furlow [30:29]
3. “Every decision we make comes back to that commitment that we are going to change lives of the cocoa farmers in West Africa.” – Sadira Furlow [28:13]
4. “We were like, the do consumer is going to love it. Sold it in, got out the door, launched it on Super Bowl, broke the Internet.” – Sadira Furlow [03:35]
5. “She is the most magical thing about the brand.” – Sadira Furlow on Suze [40:22]
6. “The biggest standout is that it's all real. That what you see about Tony's as a brand... every word of it is true.” – Sadira Furlow [50:07]

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Key Takeaways

• Purpose Over Profit: Tony’s Chocolonely prioritizes its mission to eliminate slavery in the cocoa industry over conventional profit-driven marketing strategies.

• Bold Storytelling: Embracing unconventional and bold marketing campaigns helps Tony’s stand out in a crowded market and effectively communicate its mission.

• Lean Marketing: Operating with a limited budget necessitates creative and efficient marketing strategies, focusing on earned media and strategic partnerships.

• Authentic Brand Voice: Consistent and engaging copywriting ensures that Tony’s message is both impactful and relatable without being preachy or overwhelming.

• Strategic Partnerships: Collaborations with reputable organizations amplify Tony’s message and extend its reach organically.

• Continuous Adaptation: Sadira’s career reflects a commitment to adaptability and continuous learning, essential for leading a purpose-driven brand in a dynamic market.

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Conclusion

Sadira Furlow’s insights illuminate the intricacies of leading a mission-driven brand in today’s marketing landscape. Tony’s Chocolonely serves as a testament to how authentic storytelling, ethical practices, and innovative marketing can coexist to create a powerful and impactful brand.

Transcript

[A]

Ladies and gentlemen, welcome back to uncensored cmo. Now we are in part two of a two part series talking about Tony's Chocolone, one of my all time favorite challenger brands. And in this episode, we're talking to Zadira, who is the dean of dopeness. Yes, ladies and gentlemen, you did hear that, right? At Tony's, they all have a very special title, and she really is dope. I love Sadira. I had so much fun talking to her about the marketing they're doing on the brand, her experience and her background and where she's come from and how she approaches marketing. It's a lot of fun this episode. I know you'll love it. Sadira, welcome to the show.

[B]

It's so good to be here. Thank you.

[A]

I must congratulate you on your outfit as well.

[B]

Oh, yes.

[A]

Do you like this is. Yeah. For anyone who's listening, not watching, but describe your outfit for people listening.

[B]

Oh, gosh. How good of a marketer am I now? Well, it is a lovely bubblegum hot pink with lots of layers of chiffon that creates a lot of magnetic desire to be touched.

[A]

There you go.

[B]

With permission.

[A]

Nice. Let's just say, you know, when Sadira's.

[B]

In the room, 100%. I'd like to think that my wardrobe also is very much built to be at Tony's. So luckily, I've got all of the colors of our bars properly accounted for in my closet.

[A]

Well, I think the colors of the bar is part of the success, because you cannot miss Tony's. Like, whatever store you go into, it just like jumps out, you know, in the sea of sort of bland, pale, you know, pared back colors of chocolate. This is like a bright light in the middle.

[B]

Yeah. How can you like. To be fair, I did not know what Tony's was before I joined Tony's. And I remember in an interview I was googling, and I was like, oh, I've seen that. And I remember seeing this colorful brand on shelf. Had no idea what it was, but was like, oh, I want to try that. Oh, yeah, that looks super interesting. Yeah. So you can't miss us on shelf, which is very much a great advantage.

[A]

Now people are wondering in my intro, why did I call you the dean of Dopeness? So everyone who starts at Tony's gets their own job title, don't they?

[B]

They do. So Chief brand officer Boring. But that's my official title. Yeah. So, like, we're Tony's. We always like to bring a twist to things. And when you join People get to know you a little bit. The creative team then takes that interview and inspiration and then comes back with options for you and your Tony's title. And yeah, I got the gift of Dean of Dopeness because I love brand and marketing. But then I also have this saying of protect your magic, trust your dopeness. And I mean how many people are getting on stage and saying dopeness, dopeness.

[A]

I think, I think you can pull it off. I'm not quite at that level yet.

[B]

Say it again, John.

[A]

Dopeness.

[B]

Yeah, dope. Doesn't it feel good?

[A]

It does feel good. I feel it's a word you have to live up to though.

[B]

You're doing it.

[A]

Yeah. How dope is this?

[B]

Yeah, I love af.

[A]

Well, I think I've, I think I've pitched for the chief Choco caster. So that's, that's what I'm ambition, that's my ambition is to get the official.

[B]

You're hired.

[A]

Now we'll get into Tony's because I want to know all about how the marketing works and how you do what you do because it's one of those brands that's becoming very famous. Very quickly, tell us about your journey to this point as well. Because you spent a few years, didn't you, @ PepsiCo and not too dissimilar time to me actually I was at Britvic, which is the PepsiCo bottler, so saw the world in a similar way to you. But what were the, what were the great moments that you had at Pepsi?

[B]

Quick road trip of the journey of Sedira. Funny enough, I actually wanted to be an orthopedic surgeon. Like that was the thing I dreamed about doing and had all intentions of doing until I graduated from university and I hadn't finished my science requirements so I had to get a job. I was going to do that and I ended up working at Leo Burnett, working on Marlboro. So like advertising was going to be like the sort of like thing on the side while I got ready for medicine. And then I just fell in love with ideas. I know that sounds cheesy, but I knew nothing about advertising and it was like stepping into the black box of magic, of, oh, this is where brands come from and oh, there's people behind the ideas that can like get you to feel differently. And so this thing that was going to be a hobby ended up becoming a 16 year career as a madwoman, as I like to call it. And then I got the itch and I was like, I've got to Go to the dark side. I say I found the light by going to the dark side, meaning the client and brand side. And I left advertising and I joined PepsiCo. And my first role at PepsiCo was brought in by Simon Loudon, Greg Lyon, shout out to them on Mountain Dew. This beloved brand. It was the brand in PepsiCo in New York that everyone wanted to work on. And here I came off the streets of advertising just like into this cushy Mountain Dew roll. And we were at that time when I joined, we were doing a couple really big things. We were launching the relationship with the NBA. Coca Cola had just terminated that. So got to really build the platform for how Mountain Dew is going to enter into the world of NBA. One of my favorite projects in my I was only on the brand nine months before I moved was a Super bowl campaign. Again, that's like the nirvana if you're a marketer, at least in the US of like, I'm going to be the Super Bowl. And we it was the second year of this innovation Mountain Dew Kickstart. And like most innovation, you're like need to build awareness, drive trial. So like, great, you're going to be on Super Bowl. And Mountain Dew kickstart was Dew juice and caffeine. So those were the product attributes. And we had to figure out a way to tell that story on the big stage. And our agency at the time, bbdo did all this research, looked at all of the ads that broke ad meter and really stood out. And believe it or not, they either had babies or animals in there. And so they're like, we got it. Puppy, monkey, baby. Three awesome things combined. And we made this comparison between the product and this. You have to watch the ad. It's creepily good. But it was a puppy's head on a dog's body with baby feet. And we launched that on we first tested it. I have to say that because testing will not tell you everything about greatness. We tested that in another concept. The testing said, yeah, don't do that. And we were like, we're absolutely going to do that. The do consumer is going to love it. Sold it in, got out the door, launched it on super bowl, broke the Internet. This is when like trending on Twitter, number one, unpaid was like a big deal. And I'd like to say it still lives on in Legacy every Super bowl year of like a roundup of best of ads.

[A]

Well, I have to say anyone watching this thing do check it out. It's one of those things you have to see to believe. Yes, There's a weird little bit of science, actually. I mean, we've been tracking super bowl ads for, like, six, seven years at System One. And one of the best, actually was Huggies, showing babies born on game day, which is incredible. And that did incredibly well. And the other thing is that animals are so popular and there's even some science behind why we feel emotional when we see animals. And the connection, it captures our attention, it generates an emotion. So combining the two, weird as it sounds, and it is a bit weird, but it's very surprising and it's hard to miss.

[B]

Yeah. I wonder if we tested it now, like, what would the testing say? Like, is it. Is it the one plus one get getting us to three babies and animals? Like, who doesn't love that? Maybe. I don't know.

[A]

And because I was working on Mountain Dew.

[B]

Oh.

[A]

In fact, I launched Mountain Dew actually in the uk. So I've got a bit of experience, which is the most wild success. I mean, it's weird to think that Mountain Dew didn't exist in the uk. And then, yeah, we finally got with the program, like, many years later and, yeah, we were running out of stock left, right and center. And I remember having a real battle, actually, with my colleagues at PepsiCo, because they're like, you can have one flavor, John. You can have. You literally have the green one.

[B]

You can guess which one. Yeah, yeah, exactly.

[A]

It's any flavor as long as it's green.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

And I remember has to do a big negotiation to let me take Code Red. And I did a partnership with Halo, the. You know, the game. Right. So Halo was coming out. So we did. We called it Game Fuel and we linked it to the, you know, if you buy the game, you get. Get the drink free. And there were queues outside the door, you know, literally at midnight when the game was released, we got all these photos of massive queues getting in to get the game and get the Jew as well. And it's incredible. But you're right for that demographic, that young male demographic, that is quite a brand.

[B]

They are fanatics. I remember joining and we would look at, you know, you talk about your tribe and consumer, and we'd look at photos and there were real people out there that would get the brand tattooed on them or they would take baths in Mountain Dew, like, when you talk about, like, brand love and loyalty, that for me was, oh, that's the power of, like, a strong brand who knows their audience and is consistent in that, because people were doing this on their own and just love sharing about It. And you're right. Mountain Dew, The Green Dew, 20 ounce fastest turning skew in the portfolio at that time. That if you just double, triple, quadruple face that like you're good. Even though there was so much more else in the portfolio, like Code Red. My favorite flavor was Baja Blast. I don't know. That was an exclusive with Taco Bell only. And like Fountain Baja Blast was like another one that people would go crazy for. And then we did this campaign where we did a face off of Pitch Black with Baja Blast to see which one would actually move to becoming a permanent flavor on shelf. Baja Blast.

[A]

Wow.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

It's funny, I remember one of the debates we had with Pepsi is we realized that Jew consumers drink a lot. Cause they're gaming late into the night, you know, staying up the whole thing. And we launched a 1 liter. I'm not how many ounces that much. It must be like 30 ounces. A liter would be.

[B]

Yeah, it's like about 30, 32 ounces.

[A]

32 ounces or something like that.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

So we launched it as a sharing pack.

[B]

He says, me, myself and I is the sharing.

[A]

That's the three ones. Yeah, exactly. And we had to convince everybody that it's a sharing pack. But what we knew is that all.

[B]

These kids were like, it's a big signal, sir.

[A]

We were just saving them time having to go back to the fridge and bag and get another one. But so that. That was insanely that that one liter flew off the shelves.

[B]

Yeah, that's like the big Stanley cup now of water. Like, that's. That's what it is for. Like, do consumers that one liter, that's their coffee. Like the caffeine and the flavor just.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Gets them through the day.

[A]

Now I. I happen to know from personal experience how good the advertising was because every year we had our Pepsi conference in Barcelona, everyone. So I was, I was. I work for the butler now. I say the butler because we hated that word because we're like, we do more than bottle Pepsi. You know, we. But they called us the Bottler. We hated it. So at the bottler conference, Simon would fly in and in his. I learned a lesson, actually. Here's my lesson. Do not present after Simon. This was basically my lesson because these are facts, you know, because he'd come in and he'd just present wall to wall amazing advertising for 45 minutes. And I think I counted there were 13, like, you know, different brands. With this, you know, Hollywood level production.

[B]

You get a celebrity. You get a celebrity, you get an.

[A]

NFL Yeah, there's a famous, there's Beyonce, there's a famous soundtrack, there's a comedian, there's an athlete, there's Cristiano Ronaldo. It was just like pumping out like you wouldn't believe. And the thing I found is that I would then go after him and go, here's my new in store wobbler that we launching this year. You know, it's a bit. The wobblers come, this is going to change our lives. But I remember that very well. But the quality of advertising coming out of PepsiCo system was, was exceptional.

[B]

Big place of creativity. One of my favorite just places to be, like to have the gift of working on like big brands around the world that consumers love. Like there's such a responsibility, but also just something so special when you get to have a moment on this thing that everyone loves around the world and then all of a sudden you're the favorite family friend and it's like, oh, did you do that work? Did you do that? Can you bring me some of this? And so I had Mountain Dew. I had the gift of launching life water, which was really interesting right after Mountain Dew is when the time when water was taking over from CSDS in terms of consumption. And for PepsiCo, like water really hadn't been the thing that was sexy or like the big brand. And it was one of the first times of we launched a premium water to compete with smart water. And again, this is a thing that comes out of the faucet. So asking people to pay more for bottled water and there's nothing really different about it. It was all in the power of branding. And we established this brand around creativity and really used the bottle as a canvas to talk about things happening in the world or with creativity. And like smashed, it couldn't have been better. But to be able to be able to build brands within a place like PepsiCo that has so many wonderful brands was also a really special thing in a very different category.

[A]

Yeah, totally. No, I remember that well. And then Moving on from PepsiCo, you did something quite different next, didn't you? Just to sort of pivot to a completely different industry, different challenge, but a wild ride as well, wasn't it?

[B]

So you know what, John, like when I moved to New York on the agency side, it was the best move that I made that I didn't know I needed to make and it was incredibly scary. But what that set off was this appetite for, well, what happens if I raise my hand now? What if I do it again? And I got really good at being uncomfortable and a part of change. And there came a moment even in a place like PepsiCo which I love and could have spent my entire career of, I saw the world around marketing changing and I had this irrational fear of I could become really good at the PepsiCo way of marketing, which is brilliant but very different as more technology was coming into things, different types of marketing. And so I had an opportunity to join a financial tech company that was scaling and what was attractive was a founder reached out to me. This was a brand that had purpose, wanted to help people get out of debt and put them on a path to saving and investing and really wanted to bring the power of brand into a category that is not known, quite frankly for brand and emotion and actual consumers. And So I left PepsiCo and I was like, well, even if this goes to crap, I got enough relationships that I think they would take me back. But I knew if I only lasted two years, I would be so much better for it. So I left PepsiCo and joined Happy Money as their first CMO and was leading all of performance marketing. I mean working within tech where you don't have a physical product. So going from beloved brand, big budgets consumer, to very lean, lean, lean budget brand, you are not at the center of the spotlight. It's really the product team so no one really cares or wants to listen to you. So like fighting and clawing your way through that and then also like working with a founder. How do you build a brand that the founder is the brand and how they see it is so clear to them and you bring in someone like me as a CMO to also do that, which is like such a gift of a learning experience.

[A]

I'm interested actually what say? I've done a similar sort of move from, you know, FMCG into platform technology and trying to sell B2B. So it's quite. I know exactly.

[B]

You're just like, is there something like.

[A]

Because in FMCG everyone knows the role of the marketer, you're quite close to almost owning the brand because you own the strategy, the execution, the annual plan, innovation, everything. You sign things off, you usually manage the budget as well. So you touch all the four P's and then you go into a sort of tech based business and they almost don't know what to do with you. It's kind of like, well, we make this, we sell this, you can go and do a trade show stand or make the website look pretty. It's kind of like that sort of thing.

[B]

Tell our story.

[A]

Yeah, exactly. It's very hard to define. It's harder to define the role of marketing, isn't it, in a kind of tech startup. So how do you overcome that challenge of defining your role and making an impact?

[B]

Oh gosh, I think I lost a lot of sleep early on. There was definitely those moments where you're like, did I make the right choice? This was also in the middle of COVID in doing that. I think there are a couple things that work for me. I have a ton of humility and so coming into a place where yes, I have all these credentials and experience, but I'm also a leader in a very new different category. And so my willingness to learn and to ask a lot of questions, be curious about it and not come in like, yeah, I'm the new CMO and like brand should be at the center versus okay, chief product officer, what does brand mean to you? What does marketing look like to you? Do you see the world in the same way I see the world? Like, what do we want to do together? So for me, like bringing in the humility to redefine what marketing needed to look like, how I needed to show up as a leader a lot on accountability. You know this in tech. I was overseeing our performance marketing. So really marketing was around the acquisition and so I got really good. I was in the tableau looking at the dashboard. So it wasn't like, oh, there's a group over there and people, no, it's me, I'm in tableau. I'm pulling the reports, I'm showing them at the leadership meeting and actually seeing, oh, we spent this much. What was the pull through in the funnel? So there's actually something like quite magical in a way of the immediate response of we're doing this. And I can follow the impact of A to Z that you know, and with bigger types of brand marketing you just don't have the gift of that as quickly. So also learning a different way around marketing accountability for performance and I think the last one is just becoming a better marketer by learning from your cross functional partners. And marketing was much more of a support role than the starring role. And I think in that support role it helped me to become a better marketer in terms of building the relationships and reputation of being a good partner.

[A]

Yeah, because marketing is both kind of leadership and service, isn't it? And there's a big service element to it to make other people successful. Now am I right in saying you almost wrote your own redundancy case?

[B]

I did, I did. And I didn't set out to do that. So I'd been at Happy Money a couple years. We had gone through some transitions with a founder and new leadership and rewrote the business plan. I also learned a big lesson there. I joined for the mission. But I'd also seen that if you can't operationalize and commercialize the mission unless you're a nonprofit, like you still have to deliver the numbers and you have investors and that was. It sounds obvious, but when you're in it and you're like, okay, we still have a business to deliver. So we rewrote the business plan, kind of evolved the mission and went from D to C to B2B. And the amount of things that changed in a short period of time. We had turned things around, we had momentum, we had gotten funding, we had achieved the illustrious unicorn status and the billion dollar valuation. And four months later, within that macro environment, we were talking about layoffs. And I mean that's very eye opening of like we were winning and now, now we're here. And so we had to, you know, do the exercise as you do with this. And either the smartest move I made or like naive move, I'd like to think smartest move. I had my number and I did the exercise and I came back with scenarios that included me in them. I was in two of the three options I put on the table for what I thought the future could look like for marketing. And we are sharing around the leadership table. And it became really clear I was the only leader that put myself in there. Everyone else was like, no, this is a different kind of exercise. But for me, that very much fits my brand of if we're going to do something, I take a hefty amount of pride in how I show up as a leader and with people and the team I'd built that if I was going to be okay with having to let go really awesome people, I needed to feel accountable for like the value that I was going to bring in service of letting those people go was still needed. And long story short, I'd built an amazing team. The direction of the company didn't meet me. My kind of CMO background and experience. And so I had a great relationship with the CEO at the time, this gentleman, Jeff. And we chatted and together basically found a way for me to exit that was better for the company. I think that's important because as you become a leader, you, you take off your functional hat and you put on your company hat, which means that you're going to make choices that are better for the company that might not be the choices you'd make with your functional hat on. And this happened to be a choice that was right for the company, right for the people I brought in, and it was right for Sadira. I found myself on sabbatical for nine months.

[A]

Wow. And not many people take nine months off today. And how did it feel to go from the intensity of that kind of role, which is very hard, isn't it? And the pressure you're under and the day to day grind to then suddenly have all those months.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Available. How did that feel?

[B]

I think the first week, because this is in November, you're just like, oh, finally, finally I know I can write that book. I'm going to become fluent in Spanish. Like, you know, we've all probably got this list of things of, if I only had more time, I would be amazing at all these other things. And then it was January and it still hadn't really touched the list. And I was just like, okay, I just need to take a little, you know, siesta. And then it was February. And I remember this feeling of a couple things. One shame of, well, sabbatical is supposed to be amazing. It's going to be fun. It's going to be that. But I found myself, like, not feeling as if I was being productive, that I wasn't doing sabbatical in the right way. And what we become so good at as leaders is delivering. Right. Every year we got an end of year review, we got a number, we've got objectives. And when I was on sabbatical, I don't have. I don't have objectives, I don't have productivity measures. So now I feel like I'm not producing. So there's like this feeling of you're being lazy. Like, come on, get on with it. Sort it out furlough and like, go write the book and do the thing. And I had a great coach, Alan Gellum, at the time that really helped me unpack this sentiment of. I said to him, I said, alan, I feel like there's risk in rest, particularly as, like a black female. I didn't see a lot of people around me who actually took rest. And in the US it's like, if you. If when you're sleeping, someone else is grinding. So rest was not actually a thing that was a positive. And so here I was with tons of time and I didn't know how to rest. And so in that, I actually was able to do a lot of work on, like, learning how to take rest, the importance of active rest, different Types of rest and going through that helped me get to the other side where I had so much more clarity on what I wanted the future to look like. I was also clear that it wasn't about going back. I was never going to feel like, oh, I want to go back into that chapter that I had been in, which was amazing, but the price and the cost of that was too high for me in this next chapter. And I said I wanted to build, work around the way I wanted to live, had my short list, my bucket list of all the different things. And that led to the perfect moment when I got a phone call about this small, amazing brand doing wonderful things called Tony's.

[A]

Now, did you know about the brand before or was it a surprise when they called you up?

[B]

I feel embarrassed to say this now, but it's. We're a transparent brand and I'm a transparent leader. I did not. I didn't know.

[A]

I'm not surprised. In America, it's not that well known. I mean, whenever I fly to America, I always have to take a little detour to try and find a Whole Foods and get a few bars and pay extortionate amount, by the way, just to let you know, $12 a bar, everyone. It's not cheap anyway. But I'm not surprised because it's not that well known yet. I know it's all changing now, but yeah, I didn't.

[B]

I hadn't heard of the brand. I recruited, reached out, I'd read the spec and I. It was name aside everything in the roles, like, oh, that's interesting. Oh, that's, you know, okay. And we get on the call and I'm like googling because I haven't fully read things and I'm like, oh, is that what that is? I remember seeing that, that's a chocolate brand. I had no idea. I'm like, somebody should work on that, make sure people know it's chocolate. But I remember the brand packaging is so strong that that recall, I was like, yeah, I know that. And then like got into the details of it. I actually said, no. I was like, this sounds super interesting, but I don't think it's a fit for me. And it was a bit of a change of going from being in tech and what that looks like from a lifestyle and package to something that's going to look very different. And I was like, I just. That's not going to work for me. And luckily we were able to come back and have another conversation. Shout out to Douglas, my boss, who you talked to that was like, I think I'd love to have a conversation with her. I. We can figure out a bridge for the concerns here. And they came back and said, would you be open to having a conversation? I said, yeah. And so I had that first conversation with Douglas, and I got to see who the CEO was. And I remember in that interview, you know, we were kind of getting to the end. We had gone over, and Douglas, I think one of his kids knocked on the door and came in. He's like, sadir, we're going to have to cut it short because I've got obligations and I need to go, you know, be with my family. And I just remember, like, that's such a strong signal of what I want to be a part of. If. If the CEO is like, hey, I need to stop this, because I need to go meet my obligation, my commitment with my family. That was going to be a leader that had appropriate boundaries, that was going to service the entire culture. And then I just got to learn more. Mission lock. Here is a company that was saying, the mission was so important, we're going to set up a legal entity that says, you can't muck around without talking to us. And that, for me, as a marketer, was really important. But also as a person, if you remember my experience at Happy Money, we had just rewritten the mission. And I was like, well, how do you just rewrite a mission? Like, I came here for that. Like, it shouldn't be that easy to do. So I was like, now that's innovation. And, like, they mean business when they say, this is what they care about. They're going to protect it at all costs so that no person can come along and easily change it. And at that point, I was like, I'm in. Just sign me up. Let me just get my bicycle and, like, come on over to Amsterdam.

[A]

And here you are.

[B]

Here I am, John. One year later, it's, I absolutely believe I have the best job in the world. And I couldn't. You know, you talk to a lot of leaders and you look in hindsight and, like, look how perfectly set up this was. And it feels like that I had my mad woman era of, like, agency, big ideas, uber creativity into PepsiCo brand commercial acumen scaling, delivering performance, then into, like, founder world scaling, you know, a 200 million business setting, the operational practice. And now I'm here, and I get to do all three of those things with the most wonderful people in the world. Like, not even BSing here. Like, this is the lowest ego leadership team I've ever worked with. And it truly is a joy and.

[A]

What a brand to work on. I mean, definitely one of the, I think, most significant challenger brands of our era really in terms of what, what the brand's doing and the authenticity with which it goes about doing it, I think is so striking. And its commitment to, as you say, you know, impact first and chocolate comes second, isn't it?

[B]

Yeah. That was even when you join Tony's and it's a thing you like. Oh, that sounds good. It makes sense. Like we, you know, we always talk about we're an impact company that makes chocolate, not the other way around. And you're like, well, what does it mean to be a part of an impact company? Is that a thing? That just sounds nice or generally for me, does my decision making framework change in being at an impact company versus if I was at a chocolate company And I'd say 100% it changes because every decision we make comes back to that commitment that we are going to change lives of the cocoa farmers in West Africa, everything we do. Which means that I have to make choices as a brand leader that are not in service of me on the brand side, but 100% in service of helping us reach that mission with things like Tony's open chain and inviting others in to be a part of driving this change. So we say we collaborate on cocoa and compete on chocolate. So here we are like feastables. Come on in. Here's our secret recipe of like how we're going to drive change and like see on the shelf and hope consumers pick me over you. And I mean like, that is such a responsibility and it's not an easy one, but it is easy because everything we do is in service of that commitment. Which means that when I have to make that choice and I say no to this on the brand side and doing that, then I know I'm a part of a company where we're living day in, day out that commitment.

[A]

Well, it helps when your purpose is as. When your purpose is as clear as it is, decision making becomes much easier, doesn't it? Because you've got that guiding principle to see you through. How does it compare to self? See, I mean, we're joking a little bit about Pepsi, right? You've got $20 billion. You know, businesses, every ad's got a celebrity in it and huge production values and the media spend is good old days, you know.

[B]

Exactly.

[A]

It's just incredible, isn't it? I imagine you don't have that kind of level of resource at your disposal here by Any stretch of the imagination. So how is it going from that kind of world into one where really you need to earn the right to spend any money because you're sort of, you know, you're making it. You're earning, making the budget as you go, really, aren't you?

[B]

I mean, it's a shift. If you think, like, our annual turnover here was the equivalent of my marketing budget on some of my brands. Like, that's wild as well as Wild. Douglas and I talked a lot about that during the interview. I think he was like. And so you're. You're sure you're aware, because that that is a big change. It's not just like, oh, yeah, I can scale and it's fine, it'll be fine. But we invest the money behind the most important things, I.e. our farmers, or they're not our farmers, but the farmers that we work with in service of creating exceptionally good chocolate of the highest quality. And then we believe, because our mission is so clear and so important, that it's attractive in and of itself, that that story and telling that story and focusing more on telling that story than necessarily marketing the chocolate to people is the thing that's actually the most magnetic. And so we have a history. You know, our roots are journalistic. We really believe in the power of earn, like earning the pen earning people writing about us, earning consumer sharing about us. And so we really just try to, I don't want to say, like, take inspiration from lean budgets, but it is what it is. Yes, we'd like to invest more, but I also, like, this is new for me as a marketer of what do you do when your marketing budget is 3% of your net revenue? There's nowhere for me to hide. So you just get really good at focusing on the things that are delivering and matter, and those tend to be the ones where consumers have a strong reaction to them. Or we tell powerful stories about why there is exploitation in industry. And you get folks like John Oliver that does an entire piece on us and tells our story. If you go and search about Tony's story, one of the things that's so inspiring and surprising is the number of people organically that tell the Tony story. And they do it because they find it interesting. We don't pay them. We're not even doing that amount of marketing. But they are so drawn in and want to be a part of this brand that's trying to drive change because that resonates with them that they do that. So we spend a lot of our focus on finding the right partners who are great storytellers and want to be a part of sharing the story.

[A]

I think the other thing you do. Well, I did a bit of work with Adam Morgan and Peter Field. Called the extraordinary Costa dull, basically.

[B]

Nothing dull about Tony.

[A]

Exactly. I know. This is why I bring it up, you see, because there's so much money that goes into making advertising, which people ignore, because it's not interesting. Whereas actually, because you don't have the money, you have to be interesting. And you have to take your own owned assets, whether it's your packaging or your website, or let other people tell your story, like John Oliver did so brilliantly in that documentary. You kind of have to be interesting, don't you? You have to kind of come up with an interesting point of view that challenges people.

[B]

Yeah, you have to. You don't have the gift of hiding within there. But more importantly, because of our. Like, we're trying to change an industry. We're trying to break the mold of the norm that has existed in chocolate for too long. Like, we can't be quiet about it. We can't be meek, we can't be, you know, just cutesy and. Okay. Like, we're trying to drive radical change of an industry, which means we've got to be vocal, we've got to be bold, we have to be outspoken, we have to be transparent. We have to say, like, let's just keep trying things and, like, see what happens. So we are very comfortable in taking risk in service of that mission, because the cost of not doing something is too high, which is, like, very different. And I don't think that no matter how big the budget gets in service of that, like, we can't afford to play it safe or just be cutesy about things. Like, we have to constantly be bold. And it's not just about being a challenger brand. We're challenging a norm in the industry. So we've got to shake people and get them to wake up and find ways to catch their attention, not avoid us.

[A]

Yeah. And didn't you even get a cease and desist letter from Mondelez recently? I think I read in the press.

[B]

Yes, you did read that in the press. You did not hear it from me. Yeah, we did. Like, when you are being bold. And our strategy around driving change is building awareness. Lead by example, invite others in, and we're trying to build awareness. Sometimes you gotta go in the backyard and knock on the door and say, hey, hey, you over there, Big chocolate, maybe you want to change. Come on, come join us. Come with us. And we had this idea called the Fair alternative where we showed that you could make these fan favorite chocolates, you could make this great tasting chocolate in a fair and ethical way that treats the farmers, that helps them earn a living income and put it on the shelf. And so we did that. So we usually hear like, oh, it's not possible, is it too big? Or you know, all these questions. And we were like, well, we can show you better than we can tell you. And some did not like the way that we do show and tell.

[A]

And for people listening and watching, you recreated like famous brands like Milka and KitKat in a Tony style. But it was obvious that you were parodying those brands.

[B]

Yeah, we took inspiration from those fan favorites to show what is possible. And again we try to do that again from a place of love, of a place of like, come on. We're trying to drive change. If we can do it, little old Tony's a brand that punches above its weight, then you absolutely can do it. And is there not also like this shared responsibility we have when we have such an impact on people's lives and like, you know, the size of the category, how much people love chocolate to demand a different way of going about things that leaves people better off in the process? We think that's pretty reasonable. And if that upsets people along the way, you know, we're unapologetically sorry. But we're trying to change an industry.

[A]

I mean, the other thing that I particularly love about the way you've approached things is even the product itself sends a message. Yeah, the fact that your chocolate is unevenly shaped when you open the packet, I just think it's a stroke of genius, isn't it, how you communicate, even in the way that you break the bar up?

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

I mean, doesn't that he doesn't get complaints. I hear that some people get upset.

[B]

Well, you know, you can't please everyone. Again, maybe that's another indication of like being at an impact company of with lean budgets. Our number one impression driver is our chocolate on shelf. More people will see that and have that in front of them than anything I'll do on the marketing side at this point. And so again, we never want to lose sight of what we're doing, why we're doing it and for whom we're fighting for. And so yeah, our chocolate bars, if you look at them, they are unequally divided. They are chunky. That does make it a little bit harder for you. But you know what is also hard working in an industry that is Unfair, where you have a few profiting off the many. And we never want people to lose sight of that. Not from a place of guilt, but we want you to be informed because it's a powerful story. And if it, it's a little bit harder to break, that's okay, because the chocolate's damn tasty. You'll be all right. You'll even see on our bar, in the bottom left hand corner is the coast of West Africa. Because, like, that's how much we never want distance to feel like it's far from our mind or far from you as a consumer of, like, the why we do this. It's the same reason why we have such bold packaging in colors like most of our bars. Actually, all of our bars, none of them have visuals of chocolate on it. Like, we are screaming out the shelf, like, pick us, learn about us. Every single rapper of Tony's tells you the story that we've just talked about of what we're fighting for, why it matters and how you can be a part of that. Like, that's where my marketing goes is in creating damn tasty chocolate that tells a story of what we're fighting for.

[A]

I think the one in the UK that stood out the most was. I think it was about three. Think it was two or three years ago, the countdown calendar, the advent calendar.

[B]

People were pissed.

[A]

Oh my. Unlike anything. I think it was the second most ready story on the BBC website or something insane. But. But like the fact that you had left, I think it was door nine or something, I can't remember. Maybe I, I had got the calendar actually, but there was no chocolate in door nine and then there were two chocolates in door ten sort of thing. And there were so many complaints, you.

[B]

Know, people went mad.

[A]

More upset about missing a chocolate than the slavery that they were being taught about.

[B]

Yeah, there was some of that. But then there was also people that when we did that and they wrote in and they're like, oh, I was pissed and this happened, I had to deal with my child. And again, these are real things. But when I learned the story of why you did that, and I think that's the most important thing, we didn't do it as a gimmick. The why we did it is because. Yeah, that sucks, right? That feels unfair. You feel cheated out of it. Well, how do you think the farmers in West Africa feel? So it's another way, like our bar tells a story, the Advent calendar, bringing to top of mind how unfair the industry is and like making you walk a little bit in that discomfort. And so, yeah, again, we're okay with, you know, we're not going to be for everyone, but we're trying to change an industry, and the people that want to be a part of the change, they're going to be vocal and speak up, and they're going to come along with us.

[A]

One of the things I think you do particularly well is the way you tell your story with the beautiful copywriting. And. And it's funny because, like, it's a serious subject.

[B]

Right.

[A]

You're fixing a, you know, serious world problem, but doing it in a fun, engaging, and kind of humorous way. Do you have somebody, like, in the business that is. That owns that story and copy? Is there a book somewhere that, you know, that you kind of ratify? You know, how does all that copy come to life? Because it's incredibly well done.

[B]

Yeah. Believe it or not, we just this past year put down a tone of voice deck to help us codify the magic of Tony's. And, like, we're a very verbally expressive brand. Again, remember, we come from journalistic roots, and we have an amazing, you know, head of copy sus shout out to Suze that just really, like, you talk about people that are passionate and living and breathing the brand that just. And the joy of words like just can. She comes up with the Tony's titles. Most, if not all, the copy you see for Tony's, like, somehow has come through her. She is the. We have an internal creative team. She is the only copy person. So there's not like a squad of copy folks. And also there are other people on the brand that contribute to that. But it is one of the most magical things about the brand, and it's something we try to be very protective of, of like, the Tony's wink and the way we say things, especially to your point, when you're talking about a very heavy subject in a category that's built all around joy and indulgence. Like, people don't want to be guilted into something, and we don't want to guilt people into picking Tony's. We want to be magnetic. And in order to do that, we've got to be accessible. We want to be like the on your side insider of, like, hey, let me just, you know, illuminate some things for you and, like, try to bring in a bit of humor while also being serious and saying, yeah, that's stupid, right? Yeah, I guess that is stupid. This is a better choice. And so we find that as a way to make us more approachable without being A one way street of like, we want to talk about it and tell you about it and you should care. It's like people want to eat their chocolate, have their moment and enjoy it without having to be like shoved down. All the reasons like why things are bad. There's enough of that in the world.

[A]

Yeah, I think it's a good point because we absorb things more easily if they're slightly funny, don't we? Sort of thing and actually I think get serious points away much more easily because no one wants to be lectured at or you know, read the 10 point plan or something. But that makes a lot of sense. I mean, you talked about having your own copywriter. Do you. Are there other things you in house? I mean, how do you kind of. What's your balance between in house versus kind of relying on agencies outside?

[B]

Yeah. For the most of Tony's history, things have like come out of the magical internal team here. I think as we're continuing to grow and scale. Right. We're learning along the way and also the need for, we call them like creative friends. There's like brilliant minds around the world, even creators agencies. And so we are seeing ourselves, I'd say like testing and learning, like who can come on the journey with us and help the ideas be bigger, be better. We also, like, we got it. The biggest thing is we need to prove that this model works. It has to be commercially successful, particularly for like the broader industry to see like, okay, I can do good and I can be commercially successful. So sometimes you need friends along the way to help you do that and I think that's great.

[A]

And talking of friends, one of the other ones I love that you did is you collaborated with the Washington Post, didn't you? You created a really like, impactful bar.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

How did that work?

[B]

So, you know, we were founded by a journalist to invent a Kochen and Washington Post for me is like one of the most beautiful partnerships of this homage to our journalistic roots. Very well known in the US for their sharp point of view, unbiased, very neutral, high integrity. And they reached out to us and just were really interested and excited about seeing how Tony shows up, how we talk about things and why consumers gravitate to that. And so we have this collaboration around Start a Conversation and these uniquely designed bars that are intended to like, spark conversation. And if you think about like, what better thing than like a bar of chocolate to bring people together or a way to like start a conversation in that way, Especially with our bars, like, you have some. I have Some it's meant for sharing. So I think there's like many things of like the power of partnership to get stories out there with wonderful folks like Washington Post.

[A]

And I saw you can actually design your own bar as well, can't you? If you want to. Which is insanely fun as well. I think the amount of events I've been to, I get given like a brand, you know, kind of co branded, you know bar of Tony's is that conscious thing about the whole kind of design your own and you know, sort of B2B chocolate bars.

[B]

100% by intention I think. I mean you see this in the research as well of consumers like really design personalization like how do I make something my own? And that's across many categories. It's not unique to us in chocolate. So the ability again we're trying to drive change so however we can get the story out there. Cool. Again I've got my impact hat on, not my deed of dopeness hat on of if that means I need to give over the most precious real estate our packaging for you to put your brand on there. And that gets me in one more hand. I'm for that because we need more of these moments to create the momentum to have a movement. So I think consumers want personalization options and we want to get in more in people's hands so we create more awareness about the change we're driving.

[A]

It's almost like self. It's self funded sampling, isn't it? Because it gets you into really unusual places like office parties or big, big kind of marketing events, stuff like that.

[B]

Weddings. Like weddings. We show up at all the Tony's like the most invited guest to these special events. There's something there.

[A]

Yeah, definitely.

[B]

It's an idea there.

[A]

So with your limited budget, you've got an amazing brand, incredible tone of voice. Like what's been or what. What's been the most successful kind of forms of communic that you've done that have really kind of worked to be honest.

[B]

It's the unsexy stuff. It's the day in, day out on social, our social teams around the world. I mean you know, the amount of content needed is like we have a lot of stories to tell. We got one mission. A lot of ways we want to tell that. So just the way we bring storytelling to life through social, very powerful. We have a highly engaged community on there. So I think that content works really well for us partnerships. We have a motto. We don't want to go alone, we want to go together. So finding partners who align with our values, whether that's Glastonbury and Oxfam or Washington Post, is really powerful for helping us break into places and spaces we couldn't get on our own. And I just think earned media of the more we tell the story as thought leaders, the more people are drawn to us, the more people hear it. So you get the John Oliver's you also get like in this past season with cocoa prices soaring very much, people turning to Tony's as thought leaders on how are you guys dealing with this crisis? What are you doing? Are the farmers okay? So I think those three areas really work the hardest for us. What you'll see more from us ahead is in store like we gotta get again. We know people love the chocolate. We gotta get the chocolate in people's hand. And not everybody will come in through the mission. So we're going to do a lot more of like telling and reminding people it's damn tasty. Pick some up. The proof is in the taste. Once you taste it, you'll be like, now that is good chocolate. This is from an American. And I know we get a little shade on how our chocolate tastes, but if you taste Tony's, it's some of the best you've ever tasted. So more product marketing, but absolutely with the Tony's twist.

[A]

I can definitely concur with that. I'm probably your chief taste.

[B]

We know where to find you as innovation.

[A]

Don't worry, just, you know. But we're talking of innovation actually as well. What kind of ideas have you got? Where can the brand go? Kind of. Because it turns up in lovely places. I mean, you've got the tiny bits, you know, you've got the balls. We were trying earlier. There's lots of fun innovation you can do with it. Where can it stretch to next, do you think?

[B]

I think for us, as long as there's like a good amount of high quality chocolate needed to create something that consumers want, nothing's off the table. I think that's an important part of, you know, to drive the change. We gotta keep it chocolate. Right? Cause they're trying to change an industry. So things that contain still a high amount of chocolate wanna focus on that. I think from a brand standpoint, continuing to break the mold again. We'll be 20 years old here in the Netherlands next year. And so we've been breaking the mold. We were started by a journalist that showed what's possible. We'll continue to find ways to do that. If I dream ahead of like Sadira, what Is like, awesome look like for me, it's like I want to get to the point where I can actually drop the chocolate off of the brand because we are no longer lonely because we've been able to create so much change within the industry. It's like we actually have tons of friends around us and, like, now we're just Tonys.

[A]

Oh, I like that I hadn't made that connection. Is that where the chocolate comes from?

[B]

Is that.

[A]

Is that the origin?

[B]

Yeah. It's about the quest of one man to change the industry from within. And so it was a very lonely journey on his own, trying to show that things should be done a different way. So Tony's chocolate, lonely, like, lonely journey.

[A]

I can't come up with the name. It's not like Choco Many friends or something.

[B]

Yeah, it doesn't kind of rhyme, does it? I was in Chatgpt, like, oh, yeah, what can I say? And then I just said, if we do it so well on our side, as well as on the open chain side, we can just. We can be. Tony's like, one of many amazing brands that are. Have changed the industry and set a new standard. So we broke the mold of the old way and we've raised the bar and set a new standard on, like, what great chocolate and doing good can be.

[A]

So just to finish up, then, what, you've been here a year.

[B]

Yep.

[A]

What's been the biggest standout thing for you that you've kind of like, either surprised you or you've learned or you think, wow, I wasn't expecting that.

[B]

I think the. The biggest standout is that it's all real. That what you see about Tony's as a brand, you see on the shelf, you hear the mission, you're on Instagram, like, it looks good and you're like, but what's it really like on the inside? Are they really as genuine? Are they really as committed? And that's been the most surprising thing is, like, every word of it is true. That commitment day in, day out is unwavering. No matter what seat you are around the table. Everyone's got a role in driving this impact and change. And we're unwavering in that. And, like, that's fricking awesome.

[A]

It is. Well, what a beautiful point to end. Thank you, Sadhira.

[B]

So thank you.

[A]

Love chatting about this.

[B]

Same. So much fun.

[A]

Awesome. Thank you.

[B]

Thank you.

[A]

Thank you very much for listening or watching uncensored. Cmo. I hope you enjoyed that. If you did, please do hit the subscribe button. Where wherever you get your podcast and if you're watching hit subscribe there as well. I'd also love to get a review. Reviews make a big difference on other people discovering the show, so please do leave a review wherever you get your podcast. If you want to contact me, you can do I'm over on x at Uncensored CMO or on LinkedIn where I'm under my own name, John Evans. Thanks for listening and watching. I'll see you next time.