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- [00:00]
A
Foreign. Ladies and gentlemen, welcome back to Nevermind the Adverts. A little break from your normal uncensored CMO feed. We'll be bringing back Never Mind the Ads with my esteemed colleague, Mr. Orlando Wood. We'll be reviewing all the big news from 2025. We're looking at the Christmas ads and we're. And we're discussing the big performance marketing hacks that you need to be aware of. This is a lot of fun. A bit of light heart entertainment as we close out the year. I hope you enjoy it.
- [00:35]
B
It's good to be back and good to see you.
- [00:36]
A
It's great to be back. Good to see you, old chap. And welcome back to this special Christmas edition of Nevermind the Adverts. With me.
- [00:43]
B
And with me.
- [00:43]
A
Yes, with us. There we go. That was seamless. Yes, it is Christmas. I feel like we should start with some fizz.
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B
Let's do that.
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A
Oh, and we have a friend who's brought some.
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B
Kerry's got some fizz dressed up as a star. Fantastic. Are you wearing that especially for the podcast?
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A
Yes.
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B
Oh, fantastic.
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A
I wear this all the time stuff.
- [01:03]
B
And we've got some extra sweet Asti Spumanti. Look at that.
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A
I should mention as well that Kerry is dressed up as a star from the System One five star system.
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B
Oh, yes, I get the rest.
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A
And big thanks to our sponsors at System 1.
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B
Yes, yes.
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A
Must get that in early.
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B
Big thanks to System One for that. Oh, look at that.
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A
There we go. That was my diary there.
- [01:24]
B
Look at that. There's so much. Can I have a flake with that, please? That's very nice. Lovely. So the trick with Asti's Vimanti is not to think of it like a champagne, because it's extraordinarily sweet, isn't it? And just to try and enjoy it.
- [01:39]
A
Anyway, I think that's great advice because.
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B
Everyone'S very snooty about it.
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A
I think throughout this we should come back with some festive drinks each summer.
- [01:47]
B
I think we might have that lined up here.
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A
Indeed. Well, cheers. Cheers.
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B
Merry Christmas. Merry Christmas to all our viewers and listeners.
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A
Thank you for listening and watching, everybody.
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B
Thank you for coming back. I hope you're well. I hope you're here.
- [02:00]
A
Oh, my word, that is sweet, isn't it? Should we start with the news? We usually start with the news, don't we? What's the big news stories from 2025?
- [02:11]
B
Been so long since we've done this that there's quite a lot to talk about actually, isn't there? Because it's been a big year for effectiveness. We have numerous publications.
- [02:21]
A
I've lost track of the amount of publications. I know.
- [02:24]
B
Well, let's, well, let's cast our mind back to earlier in the year because we had the multiplier effect, didn't we? Do you remember that? One big collaboration involved with System One with Walk, and it was all about the performance penalty, wasn't it? And this was an important study because it was done in the US and it was about the ROI that you're likely to achieve with performance advertising alone. Brand advertising and then brand and performance. And they showed that if you only go with performance advertising. I'm speaking to a performance marketeer.
- [02:56]
A
I was going to add a bit of value on this point that you.
- [02:58]
B
Don'T, you don't, you don't get as big a bang for your buck as if you do both. So you've got to do both.
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A
The bit people lose in this conversation is everyone went, of course it's both.
- [03:07]
B
Right.
- [03:08]
A
But if you look at the data, brand has a bigger impact as a multiplier effect. So if you add performance to brand, you get a small uplift, you add brand performance, you get a big uplift. So this is a nuance for God. And I keep reminding everybody this is that most people are over invested in performance and should be doing brand. So the big win is still for brand, in my opinion, based on data. But what's also lovely about wasn't just us saying it, it was actually Walk. You had profits and analytic partners. So we got lots of different data sets all aligning to tell the same story. And I think that's quite powerful.
- [03:38]
B
Really good. And in the US as well, which.
- [03:40]
A
Which they're a hard audience in the us, I have to say, when it comes to effectiveness, they're a bit behind the curve.
- [03:45]
B
Yeah. So it was, it was great. It was fantastic. That kicked us off pretty much on a. On a whole load of stuff this year. So we, we also had the creative dividend, of course, which System One brought out and that Mark Ritson chatted about at Cannes as well.
- [04:00]
A
He did, he did.
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B
Well, I wasn't there, unfortunately.
- [04:03]
A
No. I have to say, kudos to Andrew there for putting in the hard yards.
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B
Absolutely.
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A
And then handing the bat Mark to then take us home on the final leg at Can. The thing I loved about that is, I guess from a System One point of view, we predict outcomes, but FE is obviously the result. Right. So putting our database and their database together, I thought was a brilliant move because it connects the two together. But what it tells you again is the importance of emotion, again the importance of fluency. The big news though was Ritson Wright at the end of the presentation said, you're all leaving your cakes in, you're all taking cakes out too early. Too early actually not too long, that'd be the opposite. And that was what got picked up. And I think that's the major insight and it connects with compound creativity from the year before, doesn't it? But that's what everyone forgets. We get bored of our work way before the audience do.
- [04:50]
B
Yeah, that's true. And the other thing that that report showed was again how we're not investing in brand very much and that those brand outcomes are sort of falling away as well. So it was very interesting to see so creator do that was number two. Then we got cost of dull media as well, didn't we?
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A
So hot on the heels with cost of dull creative.
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B
Hot on the heels of cost of dull creative which you were intimately involved with last year, Karen Nelson Field and Adam Morgan did the cost of dull media and came to this figure of $189 billion. I think that was being wasted really on dull media. So low attention. Well that's the figure you'd have to spend to get up to the effectiveness equivalent on high quality non dull media. And that's sort of the GDP of Hungary or something. I think she said so Yeah, a very interesting piece and a very important piece. And since then she and Peter Field have spoken together on stage and Peter makes the point that it's the dull media that's leading to the dull creative, you know, because everyone goes to the media for the cheap media and the cheap media is the dull media and that leads to dull creative. So you've got to fix the media problem first before we can, you know, even hope to get to the fix.
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A
I mean talking Karen, Peter. One of my favorite ever pieces of work was where Peter's taken Karen's attention weighted approach and applied it to cost per million. So what he did is he worked out that e so the total population he attention adjusted different media and it's something like TV accounts for 80% of media consumed when you take into account the amount of attention. So you get on average I think 14 seconds on a TV ad, 1.7 seconds on an in feed display ad and of course everyone goes well that's great but that's old people, right? What about Gen Z? For gen Z over 50%. So even it really busts all that myth about young people don't watch TV. TV's dead, et cetera, et cetera. The data lit literally shows the opposite. So the opportunity to. And it also makes TV the second cheapest media to buy.
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B
Yeah.
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A
After podcasts. Yeah, just a little plug. Well, podcasts especially available for sponsorship and advertising.
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B
Yes. Worth its weight in gold. And that leaves us actually quite nicely talking about TV onto another big presentation this year, which was Lesbinette. So go big or go home. And he talked. So while Peter's talking about attention and the importance of high attention media, Les was reminding everyone, a very timely reminder, I thought, the IPA effectiveness conference, about the importance of scale. And of course TV's got that too. So he talked about scale and he said it was quite nice. He sort of said, you think if your campaign gets 1 to 2 million exposures, you might think that's something, but actually it's barely paying for itself. If you get 20, that's a 30 to 60 million exposures, you'll probably get a sales uplift. This is uk, by the way, it's UK figures, but to get sizable market share gain, you need anything between 200 million and a billion exposures. And that's quite sobering really. But he makes the point that if you look at variance in, in incremental profit, that only ROI only explains 11% of that and that it's budget, that explains the other 89%. And so we've become a kind of industry of little thinkers, little and narrow targeting. And we need to remember that we've got to think big, big media, big ideas that go with big media. That's how you cut through in this fragmented media.
- [08:52]
A
Yeah, well, I mean, I totally hear, I think the challenge that everyone listening will feel hearing that is how do you make the case and how do you get the budget? Because most people don't have millions sat there. And this is where I think great creative work that delivers an roi, gives you permission to increase your budget, increase budget, then goes big and gives you the impact as well of both. But the challenge is always where'd you get the money from? And you have to use the money. You've got to punch above your weight first then to get the budget and invest. I think that practically that's how those two things work together.
- [09:22]
B
I agree, I agree.
- [09:23]
A
So what else is.
- [09:24]
B
Well, we're only on kind of number four here, so we've got a couple of more that I think were worth talking about. One is the wild west of influencer measurements. So this was also at the IPA conference. So it was Dominic and Jane they did this piece on influencers, so influencers becoming more and more talked about. I think they prefer to be known as creators, so creator advertising or marketing, let's call it that. And what they did was they looked at the ROI associated with these types of this type of marketing, this kind of new marketing, in a sense and they showed that the ROI for short and long term actually was very good, probably better than online video and paid social. It doesn't explain as much the contribution to growth really. It doesn't explain as much as TV by any means, but it's probably about the same as those other channels. So quite interesting that this new medium is. And in long term particular, it pays back, it seems. So I thought that was really interesting. And then we of course at System One did something in this area as well, didn't we?
- [10:38]
A
We did indeed.
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B
Long and the short form.
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A
Long and the short form. Brilliant title reference.
- [10:43]
B
Absolutely. So. And we worked with TikTok and showed how actually the two schools of advertising that I talk about, you know, salesmanship and showmanship or performance and brand, that you see the same effects, the same outcomes on TikTok with those same styles of advertising, but the salesmanship style advertising, so it's hot by your air conditioning unit now type thing drives the conversion, but it does nothing else. It doesn't strengthen the business fundamentals in the way that the showmanship does, which drives the conversion and the trust and the fame and everything else. So that was a very interesting piece. I thought so. I think they're probably. Unless I've missed anything, actually there is something. We haven't mentioned Performance Marketing Week, have we? Lest anyone think that we're only into worlds performance marketing. Of course, of course, the big one. Hang on. Yes, exactly. Because there have been things happening here too, haven't there?
- [11:49]
A
There's always things happening in the performance marketing world. As anyone listens to this will know, I'm the oracle when it comes to performance market.
- [11:57]
B
You featured, haven't you, in.
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A
Oh, thank you for mentioning in.
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B
In their. In their power list, I think top 20, no less.
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A
Yeah.
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B
So where were you before? I thought you were.
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A
I was number 26 in 2023 and they've changed the scoring system now so they released them in batches. They go. They made it easier 100 to 8. Well, I mean I couldn't begin to comment. They've made it much more rigorous and performance led. Right, of course, of course. You know, they're led by the data over performance marketing world and based on the data they put me in the top 20.
- [12:24]
B
That's very good.
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A
They wouldn't confirm where in the top 20.
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B
I think that deserves a change and.
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A
We do have some breaking. Well, there's rumors swirling the industry at the moment that I might be headlining Performance Marketing world live in 2026.
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B
Wow.
- [12:37]
A
I can't confirm or deny if rumors are true. No. But. Well, I hope, I hope my people are talking to their people at the moment.
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B
For their sake.
- [12:47]
A
I'm going to try and do well were this to happen. I'm not saying it is happening, but I'd love to do a performance marketing presentation. Doesn't mention performance.
- [12:53]
B
Well, yeah, yeah. So they've, they've, they. Anyway, they, there was some big news from them. They were talking about the humble paw screen.
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A
I love.
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B
This is the next big thing.
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A
This is, this is brilliant. Have you seen this in real life?
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B
I have seen it, yeah.
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A
It's quite impressive, isn't it? This is such a no brainer, right? When you pause tv, right, you're watching something. People do still watch tv, ladies and gentlemen, breaking news.
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B
They do, they do.
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A
When you pause it, an ad comes on. I know, that's a genius.
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B
I know. No wasted time. No wasted.
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A
But it's surprising, isn't it? That's what I think captures your attention. So it plays for as long as you pause. But I think the. As a performance marketing expert myself, I think the biggest untapped media opportunity in the world today, by the way, and I want 10% if anyone does this, right? You know when you're waiting to get into a zoom call and you're in the holding room and it goes, someone will let you in, right?
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B
They should tell you a joke or play some music or have mad fur. Of course they should.
- [13:53]
A
And then when they let you in, there should be a drum roll. You should have a war contract literally announcing, ladies and gentlemen, Orlando Wood. And you come off to, you know, onto Bach's fifth Symphony in E minor.
- [14:04]
B
Sounds good.
- [14:05]
A
I'd come on to the Sex Pistols, of course, but you know, like, imagine how you'd feel every meeting you get introduced like that.
- [14:10]
B
Lovely. Be lovely.
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A
That is an advertisement.
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B
You heard it here first.
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A
You heard it here first, ladies and gentlemen. Someone should do that.
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B
Well, that's the news from my side. That's the effectiveness news. Do you have any other news? I mean, you've been talking to lots of people this year.
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A
I have, yes.
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B
Including people at the center of a number of different kind of, well, what should we call them? Furores.
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A
Furores. Well, I have to say One of the personal highlights to me this year has been able to talk to people that have been at the center of some pretty big storms. Right. So the two that stand out, Sydney Sweeney and her jeans.
- [14:44]
B
Oh, yes, right, of course.
- [14:45]
A
And Jaguar and their relaunch. So earlier in the year, I got to talk to the managing director of Jaguar and basically find out what on earth's going on. And actually, it was quite. It was really interesting because when I put that out, it was interesting to see how many people changed their minds once they understood the strategy and could hear Rawdon talk about it. So that was interesting. I think the sentiment switched to about 80% in favor.
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B
Right.
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A
Whereas it's probably 80% against when it all came out last year. So that shows the influence of a podcast, you know, to get people to think a bit more about things. And then Sydney Sweeney was amazing. So Craig Bromer's the CMO there talking about that. I mean, it was fascinating just to hear what it's like to be in that situation. But what I loved about it is he kept correcting me every time I talked about a crisis. He's like, what crisis?
- [15:31]
B
What crisis?
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A
Yes. And the approach. I mean, he stopped reading social media after a couple of days. He just wasn't helpful. He went back to the strategy, back to the data, back to the plan. What do we mean to do? What are we doing here? And he saw it as an opportunity. And I think that's a really good lesson for Mark because most marketers would have gone, apologize, retract, change course. And he's like, no, we're going to double down. So I believe they're sticking with Sydney and they've got more planned.
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B
Yes.
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A
Gosh.
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B
Well, there we go.
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A
So it's coming.
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B
There we go. Fantastic.
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A
And how about you? What would be your personal highlight for this year?
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B
Have we moved into highlights?
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A
I think we have, haven't we?
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B
I thought we. I thought we were still doing the news.
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A
Oh, this is still the news. Okay. Is this still the news? I thought you moved us on, so.
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B
No. Well, okay, well, let's do the personal highlights.
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A
Well, no, we can stick with the news. Have you got some more news?
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B
No news.
- [16:13]
A
No news. Okay, well, then let's not do any more news.
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B
I've done my news. Well, hang on.
- [16:17]
A
The wpp. We should talk about. Oh, that's.
- [16:18]
B
That's it.
- [16:19]
A
Yes, I was going to mention.
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B
What were you going to say about that?
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A
Well, I just think. So the big news.
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B
I mean, it is a big.
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A
The money. If we're talking about money. The big news is WPP are on their ass. Right. They've managed to royally screw everything up. And IPG and Omnicom have merged to create the biggest holding company. So WPP have gone from number one to number three.
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B
Yeah.
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A
Now, which is pretty shocking. Well, it shows you everyone's focused on the wrong thing. Right. So they're either consolidating, saving money, improving margin, or they're just focused on AI and they're not focused on creativity.
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B
Where's the creative in all of this?
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A
The creativity has been relegated and it's.
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B
Left to building, like fourth or fifth position.
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A
So I think there's an opportunity for, well, best, like uncommon, where we're recording this, I think for real creative businesses to demonstrate what they can do. I think there's a lot of opportunity.
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B
It's very much like the 1950s when there was massive. It was big companies merging efficiencies and then you got the creative revolution bubbling through. You know, there was a sort of pushback against that. I think there's an opportunity. You know, it's the time, it's the moment. Great. Okay, there we go.
- [17:22]
A
On the next one.
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B
Yes.
- [17:27]
A
Well, Chap, I think it's time for us to go to the drinks trolley and we should bring. We should bring the star of the show back in at this point. Should we? She's featured throughout a Star of the Year. She's our own system one fluent device.
- [17:38]
B
She is. She is a walking fluent device.
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A
We know stars mean prizes.
- [17:41]
B
She's come. She's come a little unstuck, stuck at the back, but I think she's okay.
- [17:47]
A
Right, what are we serving? Orlando, talk us through.
- [17:49]
B
Well, I, I think Kerry has created. And that's a generous portion.
- [17:54]
A
Created.
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B
Is that an overseer?
- [17:56]
A
It's not a latte, is it?
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B
No, it's.
- [17:58]
A
Yes, it is.
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B
It's a snowball.
- [18:00]
A
A snowball. So. So beyond the 15 people that still drink snowballs and who are still listening, who are still alive, who, who, what is snow?
- [18:09]
B
It's warm inks. It's warm inks with lemonade and ice. It's. It's an avocado. So it's a. It's sort of an egg based. It's a bit like custard with alcohol and lemonade together. We did this last year. I mean, I'm a great fan of consistency, but the freshness this time is in the cinnamon.
- [18:27]
A
I can't remember enjoying it particularly, but I'll go with it and I think you'll enjoy it even less. This time that's fine. Cheers. Cheers. Cheers. Merry Christmas. Good to see you. Merry Christmas.
- [18:42]
B
What do you think of that?
- [18:43]
A
Alcoholic milkshake?
- [18:44]
B
Yes, a bit like that.
- [18:45]
A
It's quite banana y. It's like that medicine you had as a kid that tastes like banana medicine. I said fizzy banana medicine. Yeah, it is kind of thing going on there.
- [18:55]
B
It is. I mean, I think it's quite Christmassy, but there we are. Anyway, any highlights this year, old chap?
- [19:02]
A
Well, it's been a year of awards and I have to say for you. Well, I'm not one to. I don't rate awards at all unless I win them. And of course they're the most important thing since, you know, since sliced bread. But been. Yes, we. We actually got the Marketing Week Business to Business Achievement award, which was pretty cool.
- [19:22]
B
Yes. Wow.
- [19:22]
A
This is in the most competitive category as well.
- [19:25]
B
This is your other podcast for the.
- [19:27]
A
Other podcast and System One, of course. So this is a. Well, basically, I, you know, I don't know how many people know this, but like the podcast was set up to basically enable conversations with CMOs, enable us to talk about what we do.
- [19:39]
B
System one.
- [19:40]
A
And it's become a real business driver for the business, which has been great. So alongside all the great thought leadership you do, Andrew's team doing all the marketing, Vanessa and the team do as well. So we decided we'd enter that for a Marketing Week award.
- [19:54]
B
And you won. Brilliant. Congratulations. Congratulations.
- [19:56]
A
That was a bit of a personal highlight and a big thanks to the judges and Russell over at Marketing Week for, I mean, brilliant stuff. Brand of the year, my friend.
- [20:06]
B
And so when, Kerry, when are we going to get a. When's this podcast going to get an award, do you think? Is it.
- [20:14]
A
So personal highlight of yours? Yeah. What's. What's been happening?
- [20:17]
B
Well, what have I enjoyed this year? Well, I enjoyed putting a film together with Peter Field, Measuring the Magic. I thought that was great fun. Talking about the history of the star rating and our work together over the years. I enjoyed teaming up with ITV for the 70 years. Living room Legends.
- [20:35]
A
That was amazing.
- [20:38]
B
And chatting to Mylene. Mylene Klaas, that was. She's very nice. Very, very nice. Chat with her. And we did the launch of the Aardman thing as well, so the putting on a show publication. So that was great. So those are my System One highlights, I suppose. And we've also continued to be kind of build out the Ape brand a bit. We've done some ads. I've had Sir John Hagen.
- [21:06]
A
I don't know if you did feature, if this is too early to mention, I mean, we're not past the watershed, but you even appeared naked.
- [21:13]
B
Well, you know, in an ad as well. I. I don't. Yes.
- [21:16]
A
Don't ruin your browser history by typing in Orlando naked.
- [21:20]
B
Yes, I think, you know, it was. It was. I don't know how people received it, but. But it was good fun to do and.
- [21:26]
A
Well, actually, you reminded me of something. You also appeared in out of Home in Stockholm.
- [21:31]
B
You're on billboards all across Stockholm, courtesy of Ocean Outdoor. Yes, they put.
- [21:35]
A
Thank you.
- [21:36]
B
Big thanks to them. Yes. So that was fun. That was great. And so, yeah, been. Just been building out that. So it's been great this year. So what else have you done this year, John?
- [21:47]
A
Do you know, genuinely, this has been. I mean, for me, I think it's been one my favorite years, my whole career, loads of different reasons. I mean, earlier in the year, so we did this private event with Scott Galloway and Rory Sutherland, and it was really quite fun because I was interviewing one after the other. And then at the end I thought, actually, I'll hold a couple of questions back and I'll get them talking together. And I didn't realize how amazing that would be because if you think about it, Scott Galloway is like, you know, he's written a book called, you know, Algebra of Wealth. Rory Sutherland's all about alchemy. And it's literally the logic versus the emotion coming together. The American versus the Brit, the eccentric versus the serious. You know what I mean? The combination was explosive and it was great. And I think that bit of content we created with them together has become the most downloaded podcast full time. The next thing keeping the theme together entertainment was Cannes, actually. I mean, Cannes was pretty, pretty wild. I mean, we had a. Such a busy, such a busy time. But I managed to get on stage with a proper, legit influencer, Alex Earl, who's got millions of followers, I have to say. We were presenting the TikTok research long, the short form of it, and I thought the best way to illustrate the impact of a creator would be to have a creator. But what was great is she was a creator for Poppy, and Poppy sold earlier in the year, and I had Alison Ellsworth, the founder of Poppy, on the show. So it's lovely to be able to tell the story of how Poppy grew through influencers, how Alex invested in the brand, became a creator for them, and then how they sold PepsiCo for $2 billion. So it's a lovely, lovely story.
- [23:20]
B
We come back to our earlier news piece, don't we, on influencers and creators.
- [23:24]
A
We do indeed. But the wild thing where she was like. To see the power of an influencer up close was incredible because, like, when she got on stage, everybody went absolutely wild. Right. And the moment we finished, I'd say about two thirds of the audience, There were probably 6, 700 people there. Hundreds of people swarmed. Right. Just to get a photo and the.
- [23:45]
B
Others to see you.
- [23:46]
A
Well, there are a couple of people stood on the side. Go. We came to see you too, by the way. So I had a lovely chat with a couple of people that had flown in from New Zealand and to say hi, which was. Which was very sweet, but that was pretty special. And I say my other highlight actually was a bit different to the. To the work front. But the wonderful people at Zwift invited producer James and me to join them at the women's Tour de France. So the Tour de France Femme ave Zwift, as it's known. Which is fine, except for the fact we have to cycle up the seventh most difficult climb in France and we have to do it on the same day as the professionals. And the bit I didn't account. I was thinking it's going to be like beautiful sunshine, music in the background. Take it easy. It was cold and wet, right. And we.
- [24:28]
B
Summer, isn't it?
- [24:29]
A
I know it's 8 degrees by the time you finished. And we. We had a time limit as well. So we had a sort of, you know, we had to finish by like 3:30 and sort of James and I got across the line about 3:26 and they literally were like shutting everything down because the pros then, you know, race, race, of course, afterwards, so. Yeah, but I mean it's one of those things where I've never done anything cycling wise to compete with that and it was lovely to. Well, a first big shout out to Zwift to invite us over and do that. But it just shows if you don't work hard, you can achieve amazing things. And big thanks of course, to the sponsor System one actually that kindly.
- [25:04]
B
Did you have a big one on your back?
- [25:06]
A
I did well. I was wearing pink actually.
- [25:08]
B
Okay, good.
- [25:09]
A
I didn't miss the opportunity to brand myself the entire time.
- [25:13]
B
Brilliant. I have one more highlight which takes us actually into our next segment. But my other highlight this year was being invited to become trustee for the History of Advertising Trust. Now, I don't. If you know anything about the History.
- [25:26]
A
Of Advertising Trust, they're also known as.
- [25:27]
B
Hat, as they're also known as. But they're this wonderful archive of UK advertising history going back hundreds of years actually in Norfolk, near Norwich, Lowestoft. And I don't know if you know this, but they've got this sort of brand archaeology service that when you, you know. So agencies can go to all brands, but agencies can go to them and say, tell me the history of whatever brand it is. You know, I've got a pitch coming up. But apparently every agency that has done this and used this service has won their pitch, like 100% win rate for going, you know, it's like 2,400 pounds or something to buy their sort of brand archaeology service for the year and everyone's won. And it seems like a fantastic resource that no one seems to know about.
- [26:18]
A
Or is using their marketing. Could do with a bit of improvement. I think that 100% hit record.
- [26:24]
B
Pretty impressive. So. So that I've been invited to help and to help with them. And that brings us nicely to our next round which is all about Christmas, of course, and the history of Christmas advertising.
- [26:44]
A
Okay, so who can help us with Christmas past then? Tell us a little bit about Christmas.
- [26:48]
B
What we're going to do in the time honoured tradition of phone a friend is I'm going to phone my friend Dr. David. Dr. David is going to join us and we're going to talk about an ad from, well, nearly 100 years ago and we're going to talk a bit about the history of advertising at Christmas in this country. So.
- [27:12]
C
Hello, Good afternoon.
- [27:14]
B
Hello, Dr. David, it's Orlando here from Nevermind the Adverts.
- [27:18]
A
How are you?
- [27:19]
C
Hello, I'm all right, how are you today?
- [27:20]
B
Very well, thank you. I'm. I'm sorry. Glad you could join us. I'm with John here. Hello. My fellow co host of Nevermind the Adverts and we have just got to talking about Christmas and the history of Christmas advertising in this country and I'm really pleased you could join us because of course you are an academic but you're also something of an ambassador for the History of Advertising Trust, aren't you?
- [27:49]
C
Absolutely, yes. Waving that banner whenever I get an opportunity.
- [27:53]
B
Fantastic. Well, look what we'd like to do.
- [27:55]
A
A paid for banner or just.
- [27:58]
B
Is it a digital banner? It's a social banner. Vellum. Yes, it's a vellum vellum. Brilliant. Yes, yes, it's sort of in parchment. So what we've done is we have picked out or you have picked out for us an ad for a brand, a Christmas ad from now. Where is it from? It's from 1928, isn't it? From Punch magazine.
- [28:23]
C
That's right.
- [28:24]
B
And it, and it, and it. Who is it for?
- [28:27]
C
Well, this may come as a surprise. It's not the most typically you think it's been the most seasonal offering. It's for Gillette safety razors.
- [28:35]
B
Gosh.
- [28:36]
A
Yeah.
- [28:36]
C
So it's a, it's a rather beautiful, rather crude pencil sketch. Monochrome.
- [28:41]
B
Yes.
- [28:42]
C
And with this glorious headline, temptation at a rather rakish angle with a, with a large exclamation mark at the end. So the basic premise is there is a well recognized Father Christmas with a luxurious flowing beard and a handlebar mustache. And in his hands, scaringly, he holds a safety razor. So this is. He's about to commit the most dreadful.
- [29:09]
B
Remove his beard. If only. And it says underneath, if I only dared, I'd use a blank Gillette. So this, this is years before, of course, the best a man could get in, which was, I think came out in the 90s, didn't it?
- [29:22]
C
Yeah, yeah, absolutely.
- [29:24]
B
But so tell me how this sort of fits in with the general history of Christmas advertising in this country. Because there's a sort of, there's a sort of tightrope to walk, isn't there?
- [29:35]
C
Yeah, there is, absolutely. Well, I think one of, I think it needs to be established first. It's not in this era in particular and Certainly through the 1960s, 1970s, even the idea of a razor as a gift for the man in your life was not out of the ordinary. So in this period, if you're looking at the big gifting categories, safety razors. Yes, Pens and dare I say, cigarette lighters as well, these are the big gifts. Big gifts for blokes. Huge money, huge money being spent on, on it.
- [30:06]
B
Yeah.
- [30:06]
C
But the beauty and why I picked this particular one because safety razor advertising a razor, let's be honest, is a fairly mundane item, no matter how many blades and how it pivots. But this inanimate good is, is repositioned at Christmas because it will allow you, the gifter, typically the female, bestowing this gift, to get physically, if I dare say, closer to the closer in your life.
- [30:33]
B
Absolutely.
- [30:35]
C
And Christmas is one of those rare occasions in this country where we allow ourselves to be a little bit sentimental perhaps a little bit, a little bit lovey dovey. So this way, this, this all leans into that. And of course the idea of temptation that, you know, Christmas is all about and deliver so brilliantly by advertisers, it's all about wanton excess.
- [30:56]
B
Yes.
- [30:56]
C
Letting yourself go a bit. So you know Daring to do something a bit unusual and the temptation element, it's all in this rather glorious advertisement.
- [31:06]
B
But it's quite. It's quite playful, isn't it? What it doesn't do is poke fun at Christmas, as some ads can do, and we've seen that in recent years quite a lot. And there is a tightrope to walk, isn't there, about, you know, sort of being too critical of it or. But this, I think, is quite nice because it's quite, Quite provocative, quite playful.
- [31:28]
C
Yeah, it goes, it goes so far, but it does not ultimately interfere with any of the classic tropes of Christmas that have been so well established. You know, this. I, I choose my care words carefully, but, you know, Christmas is sacred in all sense of the words and there's certain practices that everybody wants to sort of partake of. You know, it's probably the only time of year where you eat turkey. It's one of the only times where you actually bring a tree into your house.
- [31:56]
B
Yes.
- [31:56]
C
And. And everything that goes and goes with that. So, yeah, you can, you can make reference to those and have a bit of fun. I mean, lots of last year's John Lewis had Snapper, the perfect Christmas tree. Excuse me, the year before 2023. Yeah, yeah, yeah, that, that plays with that. But of course, Snapper, which of course was a Venus fly trap, although John Lewis was sort of saying, let your traditions grow. Ultimately they reverted. Snapper was sent outside into the cold.
- [32:23]
B
Very sad.
- [32:24]
A
That's true.
- [32:24]
C
And they restored the normal tree. Yeah, normality all has to be in place. That's absolutely crucial.
- [32:30]
B
There are certain things that you. There's quite a broad range you can cover at Christmas, but, you know, you don't. You. You probably don't want to be upsetting too many people. There are backlashes against, you know, certain things. There's a. David Ogilvy once said, you know, you might think it's amusing to make fun of clergymen, but a lot of people don't think it's amusing, you know, so, you know, there is a. There is a sort you be provocative, be playful, but perhaps don't undermine Christmas entirely. So. Well, brilliant. Thank you so much, David. Thanks for joining us and. Well, we'll speak soon, but. And thank you for your ad.
- [33:04]
C
Merry Christmas.
- [33:04]
B
Merry Christmas.
- [33:05]
A
Have a happy Christmas.
- [33:05]
B
Merry Christmas. All the best. Bye bye.
- [33:08]
A
Thank you, David. All right, chat. Well, she'd probably come and talk about who won Christmas in 2025. Oh, do I need my hat on? Talk about this. You'd hate me to Lose, ruin my hair. I know Scott Galloway is a big fan of my hair. I discovered. Yeah, he's not the only one he's mentioning every time. Thank you. Old chapter. American Crew, by the way, if American Crew are listening, are open for all sponsorship deals and endorsements. Yeah, I should say actually the big credits actually to the industry because we've been tracking Christmas ad performance for many, many years. Every year it's been going up and this year is a record. It's fantastic. Average star rating is 4.6 stars.
- [33:47]
B
Average, average.
- [33:49]
A
Which is exceptional. So big, big credit to everybody that's been doing that. Also big shout out because we had the most number of 5.9 stars. Is this, this year as well. So I think about five or six advertisers got the top score.
- [34:02]
B
It's great, you know, and what I like to see is that it's not just sort of sentiment. It's sentiment, it's humor and it's character and personality. Bags of personality too, which I think is wonderful.
- [34:15]
A
And it's also a Christmas of consistency. And I like, I think Christmas is a season, isn't it, where we remember, you know, family, friends, traditions, et cetera, et cetera.
- [34:24]
B
Sense of permanence in a. In a shifting world.
- [34:26]
A
Precisely. And it rewards consistency. And we have to obviously give big kudos to our friend Kevin this year. 10 years of Kevin the Carrot. And so big credits.
- [34:38]
B
And I think, you know, it's really become central to the. The Christmas calendar. Has it? The Christmas story, hasn't it? And this year they've done something very interesting with the three kind of episodes, haven't they? Starting with. And they're all been five star actually in starting with the short. Really impressive score for the short ad.
- [34:59]
A
High scoring, 15 seconds. At least 15 seconds. High scoring, 15 seconds we've ever seen on the database.
- [35:05]
B
Yeah. And then the first part, the second part was, you know, the stag and hen do and then. And then the wedding at the end and then. Well, here they are. Here they are. And so very interesting way that they've done. They've chosen to do that. The three sort of like a miniseries.
- [35:20]
A
They have done very well. Another advertiser actually did very well this year is Waitrose and they kind of.
- [35:24]
B
Took a similar approach.
- [35:25]
A
And I think why love about Waitrose is the cultural references, you know, to love actually with Keira Knightley, obviously the traitors with Joe, you know. Yeah, it was very, very well done, wasn't it?
- [35:35]
B
It was beautifully done.
- [35:36]
A
What's going on in culture?
- [35:37]
B
I mean, you Know, the, the. I talk about moto etiona, you know, the sort of the expression through the body and you, you look at the way that they both, you know, interact and it's really, it's really beautifully done. You know, the sort of. There's one scene where I think she takes his hand and they're walking down. You know, there's just little things that are suggestive of what's going on. It's really beautiful. And what I quite like, you know, as in all advertising, often in great advertising, it makes use of juxtaposition. And so here you've got the, you know, exquisitely sort of graceful Keira Knightley and this rather gauche everyman, you know, Joe Wilkinson, who is wonderful. And it's that sort of the way that they bounce off each other, which I think is, if I can use that term, which is very nice.
- [36:27]
A
Yeah.
- [36:28]
B
And, you know, it draws us in, doesn't it?
- [36:30]
A
It does indeed. I also reached out to our friends at YouTube, actually, and just asked them what have been the top three most viewed Christmas ads on YouTube, which is quite revealing. So number one, M&S, number two, JD Sports, and number three, Amazon, which I thought was interesting, actually for a number of reasons. So that's what now, of course is a mix of paid and earned, right?
- [36:49]
B
Yes.
- [36:50]
A
The most engaged ad in terms of like, ratio of engagement to views was JD Sport, which I thought was interesting. Right. That's the team Uncommon, which actually where we're recording, but they did a brilliant one where they gave out 280 phones to their audience and got them to kind of record kind of Christmas scenes from their perspective. It's a great, great kind of involving your community in it.
- [37:09]
B
Yeah.
- [37:10]
A
And I thought Ms. Is interesting as well because they. They've kept faith with dawn and the fairy and the fairies. That's another evolving story in familiarity.
- [37:17]
B
That's. And I think, I mean, correct me if I'm wrong, but is there not a cultural reference in that? It feels like the beginning of La La Land to me, you know, where they're all stuck in the traffic queue.
- [37:28]
A
But yes, and Amazon, of course, is interesting to talk about as well, because they re aired an ad from two years ago, so they did a film of the sledging grannies, which famously won a Turkey of the week, of course, from Campaign magazine.
- [37:41]
B
Higher honor than that.
- [37:42]
A
No, well, there is no higher on, isn't it? I mean, despite that, you know, being the highest scoring ad of the year on our database and it was incredibly commercially successful for Amazon.
- [37:50]
B
Yeah, yeah. Well, I mean, you mentioned YouTube, so that's my. That's one of the things that. So the Waitrose ad, there was this ad on tv, wasn't there? Which was the idea was that it would drive people to the longer four minute version on YouTube. And that's so that I had a look earlier and it's early days, I suppose, but it was on about 800,000, 900,000 views. And so I'm just thinking back to Les's go big or go home thing we were talking about earlier. And that's my only concern is how can we, how can we get more people to see it, you know, because, you know, you need to be talking about millions of.
- [38:28]
A
Well, Les, by the way, is going to be very happy at this next statement, so let me put you on the spot here. So a year ago, by this point in the season, that Christmas ads as a category had been viewed 50 million times on YouTube. What do you think the number is this year?
- [38:44]
B
It's gone up, let's say that it's.
- [38:46]
A
Gone up to 500.
- [38:48]
B
500 million? Yeah.
- [38:49]
A
Yeah.
- [38:50]
B
Wow.
- [38:51]
A
Yeah. That's incredible, isn't it? Now, of course, assuming that's a mix of paid and earned, right. But it just shows the amount of interest and investment there is in going big. So, you know, they've listened to Les, right?
- [39:00]
B
Yeah, well, perhaps they have. He did a nice thing in his presentation where he said, do you know what the, you know, the most viral video is ever? Do you know what it is?
- [39:09]
A
No, no, I don't.
- [39:10]
B
It's Baby Shark. And he said, you know, how many, how many hits that's, and exposures that's had in the, in the UK and it's. Well, it's, it's a billion. And then he said, well, compare that with the four years of John Lewis campaign, you know, and that was 5 billion exposures.
- [39:28]
A
John Lewis was 5 billion exposures because.
- [39:30]
B
Of the TV use of TV predominantly, you know, so that shows you the difference between even the most viral video that there is and the power of a broad reach broadcast Medium like TV.
- [39:42]
A
Very good. Impressive.
- [39:44]
B
Yeah.
- [39:44]
A
Listen to Mr. Les.
- [39:46]
B
Yes, absolutely, absolutely. Any others you want to talk about? There's the Heathrow ad, of course, with the bears, the recurring bears, which another example of the fluent device and the Lego ad too, uses music. I think the Waitrose one uses music very nicely. She's a star track. So I think you see this use of a character, the face, the body, fluent device, music, references to culture, inserting yourself into culture. I mean, that's what you have to do, isn't it? And these are the ads that people connect with the most.
- [40:21]
A
They are indeed. Congratulations, record scoring. Although interestingly, I don't know if you read Maisie McCabe's article in Campaign magazine, but she was saying that since Campaign Turkey of the Week was resurrected four years ago, the standard Christmas advertising has gone up. And she was suggesting in her column that the two things might be correlated. I think they're correlated, but maybe not.
- [40:42]
B
The reason that she thinks that's the reason why.
- [40:45]
A
Indeed, who knows? It's not that they're testing and getting better each year, it's that they're reading the critique.
- [40:50]
B
Maybe that's it. Maybe that big stick, carrot and stick. What we haven't talked about though, is the Coke ad. The.
- [40:58]
A
We haven't talked about Coke AI, have we? Yes.
- [41:00]
B
No.
- [41:00]
A
What's your take on that? Because we did some testing on it and it's quite interesting because while it scores the same as the non AI ads and very high star rating, which is very impressive. Right. So you can save all the production costs, you know, and you get the benefit of that. Jen actually did some analysis of it, looking at how different audiences responded to the ad. And what's really interesting, I think there's a big insight in this. The old audience didn't mind the fact it was AI, but Gen Z scored it quite low because they were put off by the fact. And it's an interesting thing that that's a generation that's grown up with social media that are okay with technology, that probably leaning more into AI than anybody else. So for them they actually want the real thing, whereas for older generations it's still got a novelty.
- [41:45]
B
No, I know.
- [41:46]
A
So it's a weird inversion, isn't there, where actually the younger generation probably wants.
- [41:50]
B
But pushing back a bit, pushing back a bit because it was only getting like 2.0, 2.5 stars amongst the men and the women, respectively. And you know, they were saying things like it, you know, feels a bit lazy. Uncanny. You know, I can see the AI, you know, people have talked a lot about the number of different wheels that the trucks have got in each different shot, haven't they? You know, once it's five, there's three or whatever else. But this remind, there's a thing in the behavioral sciences called effort bias. And this is that, you know, we value an item based on how much effort we think it's needed to create it. And I think this is something we've got to be a bit careful about. With AI, you know, created advertising because people might think, well, you know, that was a bit. As they said in our. In the survey, you know, this is a bit lazy. So you've got to use. Use it. You've still got to apply the same levels of rigor and craft to what you're doing. If you're using AI and to create the visuals in your advertising, really important. Otherwise you will come in for criticism. And of course, when your product is all about the real thing, you've got to be particularly careful, I think.
- [43:07]
A
Very good. Well, of course, if in doubt, you can always test it.
- [43:10]
B
That's true.
- [43:11]
A
And we are on hand at System One to test your ad whenever you want to. And you can compare it to all other ads in the category via our new Test yout Ad Competitive Edge tool.
- [43:19]
B
That's quite right, John.
- [43:20]
A
In case anyone forgets.
- [43:21]
B
Yeah, that's quite right.
- [43:22]
A
Just thought I'd get in there. Swordshow has probably. It's been a bit of an episode. Talking of awards, I think it's about time we had our own awards. Oh, good idea. Maybe we could, you know, do a Star of the Year.
- [43:36]
B
Is there Star of the Year. Yes, let's do that.
- [43:38]
A
And given that if you can't beat them, join them. Maybe we could up campaign and do Turkey of the Year.
- [43:43]
B
Turkey of the Year.
- [43:44]
A
Turkey of the Year award.
- [43:45]
B
What a good idea.
- [43:45]
A
Which might explain what I'm wearing on my head.
- [43:47]
B
Okay. Yes.
- [43:48]
A
For anyone who's listening and not watching. Yes.
- [43:51]
B
For those. Do not.
- [43:52]
A
Oh, a drink would be perfect.
- [43:53]
B
Oh, thank you. Yes, I'd love a show.
- [43:54]
A
This is your favorite.
- [43:55]
B
You know, I like a sweet sherry.
- [43:57]
A
A sweet sherry.
- [43:58]
B
Thank you. Oh, that's plenty. Yeah. No, you, you.
- [44:01]
A
Kerry's got very generous portion.
- [44:02]
B
She's absolutely no portion control at all.
- [44:05]
A
Yeah. Should we kick off on a star? Yeah. And of course, that fits nicely with the system. One star rating.
- [44:11]
B
The.
- [44:13]
A
The bag. The bag.
- [44:14]
B
Okay, the bag. The bag.
- [44:15]
A
We'll get our star back. Okay. Maybe she's on hand to do awards giving as well as serving.
- [44:20]
B
Right.
- [44:21]
A
Okay. Big drum roll, please, ladies and gentlemen.
- [44:23]
B
Yeah. Okay. Shall I.
- [44:24]
A
Winner.
- [44:24]
B
The winner is 2025. Never mind the action. We've got a lot of winners.
- [44:28]
A
Star of the Year. And the jury have been debating hotly all year. And the winner is.
- [44:33]
B
Oh, look, it's Aldi Collie.
- [44:36]
A
The dog.
- [44:37]
B
The dog. For. For their 10 years. Brilliant consistency and the fluent device.
- [44:44]
A
Congratulations to Kevin. The family. Congratulations. The wedding. Congratulations on the dog.
- [44:49]
B
A decade of Kevin. There we go.
- [44:52]
A
With big results. Okay, now we go to Turkey for the Year.
- [44:55]
B
This is for John.
- [44:56]
A
Big drum roll. Oh, it's a bit of paper. Oh, okay. I have to look and see what's inside this. So the winner of Turkey of the Year is Campaign magazine.
- [45:06]
B
Oh, dear. Oh, dear. Gosh.
- [45:09]
C
Gosh.
- [45:09]
B
Oh, my goodness. Well, there we are.
- [45:12]
A
So they'll be. They'll be throwing Brussels sprouts at me. They will.
- [45:16]
B
They will. John, you know how to make yourself popular.
- [45:19]
A
I do indeed. Well, I think if you're gonna. If you're gonna create a Turkey of the week, you've got to get it. You've got to be able to dish. Have it. Dish back at you, I think. Indeed.
- [45:26]
B
Indeed. Cheers. Yes.
- [45:29]
A
Merry Christmas again and enjoy the sherry. So that's it from me.
- [45:36]
B
No, it's not. We've got a final round.
- [45:38]
A
Oh, we got a final round.
- [45:38]
B
Don't try and finish too early because you know what's next.
- [45:41]
A
You can't get out of this final round.
- [45:42]
B
You know what's next.
- [45:44]
A
Is this the one that I fail at every time?
- [45:46]
B
This is the one you fail at every time. So are you ready for this?
- [45:49]
A
Is this. Is this name? That's it. I think I need Collie. I need Collie on my side.
- [45:54]
B
You should compete against Collie and see.
- [45:56]
A
Will probably be better.
- [45:57]
B
One of you gets it first.
- [45:58]
A
Collie, you can growl if you get this right. Okay, here's Collie. Collie and I are going to attempt.
- [46:02]
B
So I'm ready for this. It is Christmas themed, but the campaign was not Christmassy.
- [46:06]
A
But okay.
- [46:07]
B
The music is Christmassy. Okay. And of course, we are going back into history for this. So you'll have to. You have to stretch your.
- [46:16]
A
How far back into history?
- [46:17]
B
Quite a way. I mean, in your life.
- [46:19]
A
In my lifetime. Okay.
- [46:21]
B
Even in your lifetime too, Kerry. So. So yes. Are you ready? Are we ready for this?
- [46:26]
A
All right, bring it on.
- [46:27]
B
Okay.
- [46:28]
A
Okay, here we go.
- [46:29]
B
Go.
- [46:40]
A
How do I know there's going to be classical music? Come on, guys, it's a Christmas ad.
- [46:49]
B
No, it's not a Christmas.
- [46:50]
A
It's not Christmas. I thought it was a Christmas themed. Oh, they give me a clue.
- [46:54]
B
This is.
- [46:54]
A
Is. This is.
- [46:55]
B
Let me give you a clue. It's from the Nutcracker.
- [46:58]
A
I knew the Nutcracker and I got that bit. It's not for Air Rocher, is it?
- [47:03]
B
Close. Totally wrong brand.
- [47:06]
A
Am I in the right cast?
- [47:07]
B
In the right category?
- [47:08]
A
So it's chocolate. Is it Galaxy? No, no, it's not Galaxy.
- [47:15]
B
Kerry works at this company.
- [47:16]
A
Kerry Works is coming and didn't get it. Says Cadbury. Bourneville.
- [47:19]
B
Yes.
- [47:19]
A
Cadbury Whisper.
- [47:21]
B
No. Shall I just put you out of your misery? It's Everyone's a fruit and nut case. It's Fruit and nut. The Nutcracker and they use the Nutcracker. The Danse des Muel from the Nutcracker. Do you remember it? With Frank Muir. Everyone's a fruit and nutcase.
- [47:38]
A
I used to sing.
- [47:39]
B
Come on, you're not that much younger than me. Yes, well, congratulations for not getting it again. I don't know. I don't know how I can make these any easier. Easier?
- [47:48]
A
I thought you do, like, holidays are coming or something like that. Like, give me an easy one. How could you? How could you not? Next year you're gonna have to, like, you know.
- [47:56]
B
Yeah, well, it's the dance. So it was from. It was. And it's. That's the dance of the reed flutes. So that's the. That's what you could hear. That's what you could hear for fruit. For Cadbury's Fruit and nut. Very successful campaign, which I'm surprised Kerry doesn't know about, given that it was a big cab.
- [48:12]
A
Well, big kudos to the Cadbury team for their consistency. Use the creativity.
- [48:18]
B
There we go.
- [48:19]
A
Well, enjoy your fruit and nuts over Christmas.
- [48:21]
B
Yes, you too.
- [48:22]
A
Have a wonderful break. Enjoy the sherry. Don't drink too much.
- [48:24]
B
I will, I will. And. Yes, Exciting. Nothing. Anything.
- [48:29]
A
I'm escaping to Suffolk, so we're. Yeah, we're off to Suffolk with Teddy the dog as well, who basically is about the same size as Collie, so he'll be coming with us.
- [48:39]
B
And the same color as well.
- [48:40]
A
Indeed, the same color. So very good.
- [48:42]
B
Well, yes, at home and with family.
- [48:45]
A
So, yes, enjoy.
- [48:47]
B
You too.
- [48:48]
A
We should do the Outro, of course, shouldn't we? Old tap.
- [48:50]
B
Yes. What is the outro?
- [48:53]
A
And that's all from me. Oh, yes.
- [48:55]
B
And that's all from him.
- [48:57]
A
Till next time. Bye.
- [48:59]
B
Bye.
- [48:59]
A
Thank you very much for listening or watching Uncensored cmo. I hope you enjoyed that. If you did, please do hit the subscribe button wherever you get your podcast. If you're watching, hit subscribe there as well. I'd also love to get a review. Reviews make a big difference on other people discovering the show. So please do leave a review wherever you get your podcast. If you want to contact me, you can do I'm over on X censoredCMO or on LinkedIn where I'm under my own name, John Evans. Thanks for listening and watching. I'll see you next time.