Never Mind The Adverts Christmas Special

Summary

Podcast Summary: Uncensored CMO – "Never Mind The Adverts Christmas Special"

Release Date: December 23, 2024
Hosts: Jon Evans and Orlando Wood
Podcast: Nevermind the Ads (a spin-off of Uncensored CMO)

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1. Introduction and Podcast Relaunch

The episode kicks off with Jon Evans and Orlando Wood celebrating the relaunch of their second podcast, Nevermind the Ads, during the Christmas season. Jon humorously mentions the consumption of eggnog during the episode preparation, setting a festive and light-hearted tone.

Notable Quote:
Jon Evans [00:25]: “There was a little bit of eggnog consumed in this episode. Hopefully you can't tell.”

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2. Industry News: Omnicom IPG Merger

The hosts delve into the significant news of the week—the proposed merger between Omnicom and IPG. Orlando Wood describes the potential creation of a massive new agency network, questioning whether this consolidation will lead to reduced choices for advertisers.

Notable Quotes:
Orlando Wood [01:13]: “The big news, of course this week is the Omnicom IPG merger, which is set to happen, isn't it?... people are just sort of wondering whether it's going to mean less choice ultimately for advertisers.”
Jon Evans [01:48]: “I think it's the most boring bit of news all year.”

Discussion Highlights:

• Jon critiques the merger as profit-driven rather than customer-focused.
• Concerns about efficiency and market power overshadowing creativity and service quality.
• Historical parallels drawn to FMCG mergers and their regulatory scrutiny.
• The likely negative impact on competition and advertising effectiveness.

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3. Christmas Gift Ideas: Recommended Books

Shifting gears to more uplifting content, the hosts recommend two books perfect for Christmas stocking fillers:

a. "The Attention Economy" by Karen Nelson Fields

Jon discusses his recent interview with Karen Nelson Fields, highlighting her exploration of measuring and planning for consumer attention in advertising.

Notable Quotes:
Jon Evans [04:21]: “Karen's new book, The Attention Economy, is a blueprint for the category and where it goes next... how do we measure for attention, how do we plan for attention.”
Orlando Wood [05:04]: “It's a big, you know, it's a sort of shaking things up a bit really, isn't it?”

b. "The Three Word Brief" by Bob Hoffman

Orlando introduces Bob Hoffman’s critical take on programmatic advertising, emphasizing the inefficiencies and wasted spend within the industry.

Notable Quotes:
Orlando Wood [05:57]: “Bob talks about just how much money is spent and wasted on programmatic advertising... he calls it the programmatic poop funnel.”
Jon Evans [07:43]: “I find this quite shocking because the problem with most marketers is they're creative people and they literally glaze over at this company.”

Discussion Highlights:

• Karen's Contribution: Transitioning from theoretical attention to practical implementation and metrics.
• Bob's Critique: Detailed breakdown of where advertising dollars are lost in programmatic processes, highlighting a mere 3% effectiveness.

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4. The Inefficiency of Programmatic Advertising

A significant portion of the conversation critiques the current state of programmatic advertising, exposing the low return on investment and the complexities involved in media planning.

Notable Quotes:
Orlando Wood [07:54]: “For every dollar that you put on programmatic advertising... leaving you with 3 cents of your original dollar that is actually spent on advertising that is viewed for more than one second.”
Jon Evans [08:25]: “But I think there's a problem because marketers love to get involved in the creative... what the people that I know that know how this works, the stuff they tell me is shocking.”

Discussion Highlights:

• The vast majority of programmatic ad spend is lost to agencies, ad tech fees, and inefficiencies.
• The negative impact on advertising effectiveness and brand recognition.
• Encouragement for marketers to focus more on creative strategies rather than getting bogged down by technical media planning issues.

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5. Christmas Ads Analysis: Consistency and Innovation

The hosts analyze the latest Christmas advertising campaigns, emphasizing the importance of consistency combined with fresh creativity.

Notable Quotes:
Orlando Wood [13:00]: “These are Aldi, of course, and funnily Enough... using the same kind of idea, revisiting it consistently, but bringing a new freshness to it each time.”
Jon Evans [15:38]: “Coke, the most consistent Christmas advertiser, decided to keep us on our toes this year by throwing AI into the mix.”

Discussion Highlights:

• Successful campaigns from brands like Very, Morrisons, and Moonpig highlight the effectiveness of evolving consistent themes.
• Coke's AI-Driven Ad: Introduced a slightly Disney-esque magical theme generated with AI, which was well-received due to its alignment with longstanding brand creativity.
• Emphasis on the delicate balance between maintaining a consistent brand frame while introducing new and engaging elements.

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6. Bill Bernbach’s Insight: Science vs. Art in Advertising

Orlando Wood shares an excerpt from Bill Bernbach's letter, underscoring the tension between scientific approaches and artistic creativity in advertising.

Notable Quotes:
Bill Bernbach Excerpt [18:37]: “Advertising is fundamentally persuasion. And persuasion happens to be not a science, but an art.”
Orlando Wood [20:53]: “Advertising is fundamentally persuasion... but an art.”

Discussion Highlights:

• Bernbach warns against over-reliance on scientific methods, which can lead to stasis and loss of creative spirit.
• The importance of maintaining the "creative spark" to inspire and engage audiences.
• Critique of how fixed scientific rules can diminish the art of persuasion inherent in effective advertising.

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7. "Name That Ad" Segment

In a playful segment, Jon and Orlando challenge each other to identify classic advertisements based on music and vague clues.

Episode Highlights:

• Castrol GTX Ad: Jon fails to recognize the ad despite recalling the visual elements, highlighting the challenge of matching audio cues to specific campaigns.

Notable Quote:
Orlando Wood [23:10]: “It is Castrol GTX.”

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8. Festive Banter and Closing Remarks

The episode concludes with festive banter, including stories about brand management during the holiday season and the introduction of limited-edition chocolates.

Notable Quotes:
Jon Evans [24:31]: “I have to give credit to our good friend Rory Sutherland... People that drink eggnog live longer.”
Orlando Wood [24:44]: “Merry Christmas to you, too.”

Discussion Highlights:

• Jon shares insights from managing the rebranding of Croft Sherry, emphasizing the extreme seasonality of certain products.
• Light-hearted interactions with the producer, James, add a personal and humorous touch.
• Exchange of limited-edition chocolates and well-wishes wrap up the episode on a cheerful note.

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Conclusion

This Christmas Special edition of Nevermind the Ads offers a blend of critical industry analysis and festive cheer. Jon Evans and Orlando Wood provide insightful commentary on major advertising trends, recommended reading for marketing professionals, and an engaging look at the balance between creativity and scientific approaches in the advertising world. Their discussions are enriched with notable quotes and personal anecdotes, making the episode both informative and enjoyable for listeners.

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Note: This summary excludes non-content sections such as advertisements, extensive intros, outros, and any tangential conversations that did not contribute to the main topics discussed.

Transcript

[John Evans]

Foreign Ladies and gentlemen, welcome back to the uncensored cmn. And one of the highlights of my year this year was starting a second podcast with my wonderful colleague Orlando Wood, the Grom Fromager Advertising. We created a new format called Nevermind the Ads where we review the latest and greatest ads and breaking news in the wonderful world of advertising. And we thought as it's Christmas, we'd combine the two.

[Orlando Wood]

So.

[John Evans]

So here we are doing a Christmas special edition of Nevermind the Ads. Hope you enjoy it. And there was a little bit of eggnog consumed in this episode. Hopefully you can't tell. Here it is. So, ladies and gentlemen, welcome back to a special relaunch slash Christmas special edition of Nevermind the Adverts with myself, John Evans and the esteemed Grand Fromage Petit Lagoon, Orlando Wood.

[Orlando Wood]

Good to be back. The Odd Couple.

[John Evans]

The Odd Couple.

[Orlando Wood]

Has Peter Wright named us, which was very nice. I quite enjoyed that.

[John Evans]

Well, we had a little sabbatical, didn't we? And now we're quite a big sabbatical.

[Orlando Wood]

But we're here, as I always say, back by unpopular demand. And here we are together again.

[John Evans]

We are indeed. And we have been busy, of course, you know, it's not as if nothing's happening.

[Orlando Wood]

We have been doing the odd thing, haven't we?

[John Evans]

So maybe we should start with the news, Orlando.

[Orlando Wood]

Yes, the news.

[John Evans]

What's been happening?

[Orlando Wood]

Well, the big news, of course this week is the Omnicom IPG merger, which is set to happen, isn't it? I mean, massive new agency network, if it goes through, if the regulators let it go through, I suspect in the name of efficiency. That, I suspect is what is driving it. And people are just sort of wondering whether it's going to mean less choice ultimately for advertise. I don't know. I don't know. That's why I've read that. But what do you think?

[John Evans]

I think it's the most boring bit of news all year. I just think.

[Orlando Wood]

But I think we had to talk about it.

[John Evans]

We're going to end on a higher. I think we'll build up, I think we'll start low, but I don't know, I just think it's not in service of the customer. And I think whenever businesses do things like this, they're just looking at how do I make more profit, how do I become more efficient, how do I get more power in the market to win pitches? And it's all about them. And it's not about how do I provide a better service to customers, how do I make it Better advertising. How do I make creativity more front and center? And often, actually, often with mergers, what you find is that they go backwards before they go forwards because what they'll be doing, to coin your phrase of looking out, they'll be looking in. So there'll be a period of looking in now that happens where all the synergy business cases and the cost cutting and the layoffs and the restructuring. Right. So basically if you're a, you know, if they are one of your agencies, you're going to have this period of uncertainty where you just don't know are they thinking about your brief or are they thinking about their job? And that's the issue. So if I as, as a work, I used to, you know, I used to obviously be a big buyer of advertising, I no longer am. I now advise on it rather than.

[Orlando Wood]

Done quite a lot in various places.

[John Evans]

In various capacities over the years, you know, been responsible for the odd dollar or two hitting the tray. But so I don't really see it's particularly good news for brand side marketers necessarily. It reduces competition. That's never a good thing. I remember when I used to work in fmcg, if the number one and number two or the number two and number three got together, the competition commission would get involved for a whole nine months to a year deciding whether or not it would end up in customers paying more. So I think that's the danger. I don't really see much upside and I think as a signal of where the industry is going, it doesn't pick particularly exciting.

[Orlando Wood]

No, indeed. Well, more of more.

[John Evans]

Perhaps we'll try and get some more exciting news to replace the big merger in the industry.

[Orlando Wood]

Well, that was really the news. Let's keep it short and sweet, shall we? In a sort of slightly news related section, I thought we could talk bit about two possible Christmas gifts for people. So Christmas stocking fillers, because there are two new publications that have come out recently or about to come out that I think people might enjoy when spending time with their family over Christmas. So the first of these I thought was obviously Karen Nelson Fields new book.

[John Evans]

Wonderful. Karen Nelson Field, yes, yes, yes.

[Orlando Wood]

I think you might be speaking to her on your other podcast.

[John Evans]

Well, on my less well known podcast on the less well known one, Karen, the one we don't mention. So Karen, I interviewed Karen actually a couple days ago on her new book the Attention Economy, which is a blueprint for the category and where it goes next. And I think what Karen's done very helpfully for everybody is taking attention from a Debate a subject that we all know we should be paying attention to, excuse the pun, to actually how do we then measure for attention, how do we plan for attention and are there metrics that we can coalesce around that will allow us to sort of measure what we get in attention terms? So I think it's good that the debate's going from. In theory, I understand that I should be paying attention to. Attention to actually then how do you implement it? So yeah, I think that's going to be a big contribution.

[Orlando Wood]

It is, it is, it's a big, you know, it's a sort of shaking things up a bit really, isn't it? I mean, it's like her last book on steroids, it's how do you apply it? And I think her course as well is about that too. So it's about how do you actually do this stuff and how do you talk to your boss about it as well?

[John Evans]

It's quite funny. So I read the book and in the first chapter, Karen apologises for the boring chapter going through the history of attention. It was actually really interesting. I didn't realize a whole academic study of why we pay attention to what we do and how, you know, even going back to the late 19th century, attention was being discussed. So actually, you know, the measurement and concern about attention is nothing new. It's just that what's happened is the media platforms we now have, have changed, you know, how we pay attention to things, particularly in consequences.

[Orlando Wood]

Well, very low attention, many of them, aren't they?

[John Evans]

So therein lies the problem. As Karen had said herself, not all reach is equal.

[Orlando Wood]

No. And this is actually brings me to my second stocking filler idea for anyone listening and anyone with a family member perhaps, or a friend in marketing or advertising. And that's Bob Hoffman's book, the Three Word Brief. Now, have you come across this, John?

[John Evans]

Well, well, a return was a returning guest, a former guest actually. Yes, One of the most popular episodes of the podcast. Oh, sorry, the other podcast mentioned, you know, and he's not sure of an idea. He's not short of a, you know, an opinion.

[Orlando Wood]

No, he's not. But it's, it's extremely good, you know, so he talks about there's a section up front on creative, but there's a section on media, of course, which is where his, his beef is, you know, most of the time. And it's pretty hard hitting, I have to say. You know, it talks about just how much money is spent and wasted on programmatic advertising. You know, 80% of all spend on online advertising is programmatic. And he just talks. He has this thing, he calls it the programmatic poop funnel. And he says for every dollar that you put on programmatic advertising, once you've gone through the various layers of where this money goes, he says the first 7 cents will probably go to your agency. The next 27 cents will go to ad tech in some kind. Then 15 cents unknown. No idea where that goes. I mean, it's impossible to trace. 15 cents on Unview material, 7 cents is stolen, then you've got 26 cents that's not, you know, that's not viewed for more than a second, leaving you with 3 cents of your original dollar that is actually spent on advertising that is viewed for more than one second.

[John Evans]

Now, the scary thing about this is if Karen and Bob were to get together and kind of combine forces. So Karen's talking about the bit that does actually get served.

[Orlando Wood]

Yes.

[John Evans]

And how much of that is seen. And we remember. So presumably that 3% divides.

[Orlando Wood]

Well, exactly that. So that's. I mean, that's really. It's really worrying, isn't it?

[John Evans]

I find this quite shocking because the problem with most marketers is they're creative people and they literally glaze over at this company. It's a bit like the IPG merger. I mean, you mentioned, you know, holding company. I know, exactly. We lost the audience here. So you talk about holding company merger. This is the second most dull topic, programmatic. I know. We have gone in hard, honestly, ladies and gentlemen, we are going to get some Christmas. Festive. CHEERING eventually.

[Orlando Wood]

We will, we will.

[John Evans]

But I think there's a problem because marketers love to get involved in the creative. They don't really spend much time. Kind of the intricacies of media planning and how the pipe works, you know, and all that kind of thing, and what they actually get versus what they buy. But the people that I know that know how this works, the stuff they tell me is shocking. It's.

[Orlando Wood]

Well, and I think it all helps to explain, you know, why advertising effectiveness has been falling. You think of how much money is spent on advertising and where it's going. You know, there's no. There's no wonder, really, is there? And so I think there's probably two books to be read together. I'd say Bob, Karen's.

[John Evans]

I think that would be a great.

[Orlando Wood]

And make for a very happy Christmas indeed for somebody.

[John Evans]

So we're going to bring some. Some festive cheer to the conversation.

[Orlando Wood]

You think we should.

[John Evans]

I think we should watch a good.

[Orlando Wood]

Way should we move on to some. What should we do? What? Should we have a drink. A drink.

[John Evans]

I'm quite thirsty, actually. All this talk of merchants, acquisitions.

[Orlando Wood]

What should we start with? What. What do you drink at Christmas? We have all the favorites here. We've. We have some Burns.

[John Evans]

Is that how you pronounce it?

[Orlando Wood]

No, I'm doing. I remember the ad. It was Cockburns. No, Co Burns. Oh, I see. So we have some Co Burns.

[John Evans]

Good of them.

[Orlando Wood]

To clarify special reserve. We have some Warninks. Do you remember the ad with Helen Lederer?

[John Evans]

Well, I. I have to confess here, so years ago, when I was a young.

[Orlando Wood]

Don't tell me. You were a brand manager.

[John Evans]

I was a brand manager back in the day. Exactly.

[Orlando Wood]

Fantastic.

[John Evans]

I don't think we've got through an episode without me confessing to having a brand manager of one.

[Orlando Wood]

Is there. Is there anything else on the table?

[John Evans]

I noticed you didn't bring the Croft sherry because I was responsible for the rebrand of Croft sherry. The crazy thing about warnings advocate is 90% of it is sold is egg. It is egg, yes, correct. Actually, I've got an interesting story on this one. Apparently, but not only is 90% of it egg, 90% of it is sold in the week before Christmas. So can you imagine, like, being the brand manager? Well, way worse than Bailey's.

[Orlando Wood]

Worse than Bailey's.

[John Evans]

Bailey's worse, yeah. Bailey's is like 80, I think, at Christmas. I mean, something like that. This is like the most extreme seasonal, like, drink ever. So the poor. I mean, it was. I think it was my friend Claire who was the brand manager on it when we worked together, and she would not know whether or not she hit her target until the very final week. It would be like miss, miss, miss, miss all the way through the year hit in the final week of the year. And it would all depend on whether Tesco decided to put it on the end of the aisle or not. It was literally just that.

[Orlando Wood]

Where. Where's the ice?

[John Evans]

It's only thanks to. Do we have the snowball? I think.

[Orlando Wood]

Thank heavens.

[John Evans]

Here we go. Our butler here, producer James.

[Orlando Wood]

Thank you.

[John Evans]

Jeeves has got many side hustles. This is one. There we go.

[Orlando Wood]

Beautifully done. There you go.

[John Evans]

Amazingly done. There we go.

[Orlando Wood]

Beautiful. That's beautiful over us.

[John Evans]

Thank you, James.

[Orlando Wood]

That's lovely. And we need some sparkle, sparkly bubbles here as well.

[John Evans]

Well, I've just. Oh, there we go.

[Orlando Wood]

Thanks.

[John Evans]

I'll tell you a little story about this and I have to give credit to our good friend Rory Sutherland.

[Orlando Wood]

Yes.

[John Evans]

In The Spectator this week, there's an article that actually, people that drink eggnog live longer.

[Orlando Wood]

Is that true?

[John Evans]

It's true. Apparently so. Because I've always thought it's a great source of protein. It's all the eggs, right? Yes. And apparently the sugar allows you to absorb the protein into your system more efficiently. And this isn't a Spectator, right?

[Orlando Wood]

Well, that's. That's a serious magazine.

[John Evans]

This is almost like a health kick. Well, yeah. I mean, who knew?

[Orlando Wood]

Who knew?

[John Evans]

And apparently the same is true. People that eat ice cream statistically live longer.

[Orlando Wood]

You heard it first.

[John Evans]

I mean, literally, this explains my life.

[Orlando Wood]

It does.

[John Evans]

Cheers. I need to do the research on chocolate. If chocolate and ice cream make you live longer, I'm gonna be 102.

[Orlando Wood]

Oh. Oh. That's the taste of Christmas, isn't it?

[John Evans]

Yeah, kind of. I don't know what kind of Christmas you have.

[Orlando Wood]

A very eggy one. Lovely. That's delightful.

[John Evans]

Spectacular. Well, how long can you make carbs like that? I can see why it only sells for one week.

[Orlando Wood]

Anyway, I rather like it. But. But.

[John Evans]

Yes. Where's the Baileys?

[Orlando Wood]

Where is the Bailey?

[John Evans]

You can see why Bailey. So, Orlando, it's Christmas. It is. What's your take on the latest crop of Christmas ads?

[Orlando Wood]

Well, it's been quite. It's been a very encouraging year. I think there have been some very, very strong offerings.

[John Evans]

Watching offerings.

[Orlando Wood]

Eggnog.

[John Evans]

Strong offerings.

[Orlando Wood]

Wallace is the season. This is the season to.

[John Evans]

To change my language. To be giving God just a season to give many stars. Wise men followed the stars.

[Orlando Wood]

Let's start this. Let's start this round again.

[John Evans]

Christmas ads. So, Orlando, you've been the grand fromage.

[Orlando Wood]

And, you know, we've had an excellent crop this year.

[John Evans]

Do you know what a flock of flamingos is called?

[Orlando Wood]

No. I do know that. What is it? It's what? Go on, tell me, what is it?

[John Evans]

Flamboyance.

[Orlando Wood]

A flamboyance. Of course it is. Yes, of course it is.

[John Evans]

Of course it is. I've never met anyone who's known that. It is a flamboyance.

[Orlando Wood]

Yes, yes, I know. It is a crop of Christmas.

[John Evans]

Oh, it is a crop.

[Orlando Wood]

Now we've established a crop of Christmas and I think. And they've been very good, haven't they?

[John Evans]

They have. Well, statistically, very good.

[Orlando Wood]

We've seen some very good returning campaigns. So the likes of Very. And Ms. Morrisons came back with the gloves. Yes. And Moonpig as well, with their fluent device. I mean, these are Aldi, of course, and funnily Enough, when you look at the ones that are performing very well on brand recognition, it's the ones that are using the same kind of idea, revisiting it consistently, but bringing a new freshness to it each time. And that's. I think that's the trick, isn't it? I mean, that's the trick. I mean, our colleague Andrew Tindall recently wrote a report about consistency, didn't he? I think he's been on your other.

[John Evans]

Podcast on the lesser one. No, he has, actually. I mean, it's. And in the data, she bears this out, actually, I think very ran with the edited version of the same ad that went from 4.6 to 5.4. Morrisons kept with the gloves, they went from about 4.6 again to about 5.5. So again, it just shows the power of a consistent idea. Now, consistency isn't literally running the same ad again, necessarily, but developing and evolving an idea that people get familiar with. And the data suggests that the more you do that, the greater the compounding effect.

[Orlando Wood]

That's right.

[John Evans]

Good examples on Shirt Christmas.

[Orlando Wood]

And the way I like to think about it is, you know, consistency is your kind of picture frame, but you know, that stays the same. But then you present the idea within it with newness and freshness each time. And that newness and freshness reinforces that same frame, actually. So you need both. You need consistency, but you also need newness and freshness. And that is the creative tightrope that you kind of have to walk. That's what a campaign really is. You know, a good campaign will do both of those things, so each fulfills the other. It's not one or the other, it's both.

[John Evans]

And then that might explain why Coke, the most consistent Christmas advertiser, decided to keep us on our toes this year by throwing AI into the mix. What did you think about that?

[Orlando Wood]

Well, I mean, you know, the general public didn't seem to bat an eyelid, did they? And it's pretty interesting, isn't it, that you can do this? I think probably because I knew it was made by AI you sort of look at the faces and you think, is that quite right? You know, but it seems not to have made very much.

[John Evans]

I mean, I don't think we found a single mention of it being AI in the report, and I think people just loved it. But I think the thing people maybe didn't realize is they're benefiting from 30 years of consistency with the creative. All the fluent devices, as you call them, the polar bear and the trucks and the the tune and so on. And that's what people responding to. They loved it. They didn't care how it got produced. I mean, and actually the, the ad is slightly Disney, like slightly magical anyway. Just felt like kind of a Disney. If Disney made a Christmas Coke ad, that's what they did.

[Orlando Wood]

Well, Disney, of course, have made.

[John Evans]

They've done very well this year.

[Orlando Wood]

Yeah. And, and, and it is finding the magic in what they do, isn't it? Finding the magic in their product with the sort of octopus. Was it an octopus?

[John Evans]

It was the boy in the octopus, yeah. Yeah.

[Orlando Wood]

So it was, it was, it was very good. We normally do and never a break from the ads, don't we?

[John Evans]

We do.

[Orlando Wood]

And you know, I was thinking of this and I thought actually this is the wrong title for this section because my thought was actually all about advertising. It's something that I've been thinking about quite a lot in putting together the course, in putting together Ape. And it was just the reliance on science and what happens to advertising when we rely on science. And you get, you know, when you do that, you get yourself into a whole different style of advertising actually, and one that's actually more like salesmanship than it is showmanship. So what I thought I'd do is I. You just read out something beautiful and Christmassy. I wanted to read out what our man Bill Bernback said.

[John Evans]

This is very modern of you. I was expecting 19th century Italian.

[Orlando Wood]

We're sticking with just last century. And Bill Burnback, he, when he left Gray, or just before he left Gray, he wrote a letter to his then boss because he, Bill Burmac was head of sort of Creative at the time and he could sort of see what was coming in the 1950s because it was kind of a scientific kind of groundswell in advertising. And everything was sort of Rossa Reeves and the USP and fixing the usp and everything looked very scientific in those Colgate ads and all those cigarette ads. And Bill Burmack kind of knew what was. What was coming. So he wrote this letter to his boss. And I want to read just an excerpt from it because I think it tells us what happens when we rely too much on the science and we sort of get stuck in technique. So he said, and I don't mind telling you, I'm worried. I'm worried that we're going to fall into the trap of bigness. Think back to our earlier conversation.

[John Evans]

Yeah, very apt.

[Orlando Wood]

That we're going to worship techniques instead of substance. That we're going to follow history instead of making it that we're going to be drowned by superficialities instead of buoyed up by solid fundamentals. I'm worried less hardening of the creative arteries begins to set in. And I seen that all around me. He said, there are a lot of great technicians in advertising, and unfortunately, they talk the best game. They know all the rules. They can tell you that the people in an ad will give you greater readership. They can tell you that a sentence should be this long or that short. They can tell you that body copy should be broken up for easier and more inviting reading. They can give you fact after fact after fact. They are the scientists of advertising. But there's one little rub. Advertising is fundamentally persuasion. And persuasion happens to be not a science, but an art. And it's that creative spark that I'm so jealous of for our agency and that I'm so desperately fearful of losing. I don't want academicians, I don't want scientists. I don't want people who do the right things. I want people who do inspiring things. Isn't that wonderful?

[John Evans]

That's brilliant.

[Orlando Wood]

Isn't that absolutely wonderful? And what you find when people tend to rely on the science too much is that science leads to fixed rules, which leads to stasis. It also tends to lead to reduction. So, you know, just showing bits of a logo, perhaps in an ad, reducing things to smaller parts, you've seen it in the work I've done about how things are looking very close up at the moment. And it's sort of science is all about certainty, isn't it, Creating certainty, when that's not the role of showmanship at all. Showmanship opens people up to possibility. Salesmanship tries to nail people down to a certainty, to a sale. And so when we start to apply too much science to showmanship, we end up in a bit of a bad place. So I'd say think about that and think about, you know, how actually art, music, drama, narrative, the human condition, understanding people, that's what showmanship is really all about. And science can lead us down a blind alley if we're not careful.

[John Evans]

So, Orlando, are we gonna maybe revisit the Name that ass Name that ass section? I enjoyed that. I'm not sure I scored very highly. I may have got one out.

[Orlando Wood]

Well, this one. This one it is. It's because it's Christmas.

[John Evans]

Where is this on the difficulty scale?

[Orlando Wood]

This is. Ah, well, we'll see, we'll see. I mean, I. I would know instantly, but I. But I chose it.

[John Evans]

So that is the advantage of choosing.

[Orlando Wood]

Something what I'd like to do. It's it. Because, you know, Christmas, you think of childhood, don't you? Christmas and your own childhoods and growing up. And this one, it may not surprise you to learn, is a piece of music from an ad that we would have grown up with. So you should. You should. I think you'll definitely recognize the tune. So I'm going to play it and I'll just give you a bit of. Bit of a clue which will not help you at all. It's from Marla's 7th Symphony.

[John Evans]

You lost me completely there.

[Orlando Wood]

So I'm going to play it. I hope. I hope you can hear it. Here we go. You ready for this?

[John Evans]

Bring it on. Are we getting to the ad part yet? Or is this. Is this the build up to the.

[Orlando Wood]

This is the ad.

[John Evans]

This is the ad.

[C]

Oh.

[John Evans]

No, I have to say category. Narrow it down for me. Or. Or that give it away.

[Orlando Wood]

Let's call it. Let's call it an engineering product.

[John Evans]

An engineering product. Is it a car of some kind?

[Orlando Wood]

Well, it's related.

[John Evans]

It's related to cars. Related to cars?

[Orlando Wood]

Yes.

[John Evans]

Is it the aa? No, it's not the aa.

[Orlando Wood]

Come on, come on.

[John Evans]

Is it tires?

[Orlando Wood]

No.

[John Evans]

No, it's not. Not Pirelli?

[Orlando Wood]

No.

[John Evans]

Related.

[Orlando Wood]

And you're not going to get it, are you?

[John Evans]

No, I'm not gonna get it. No, no, I have to. I have to remember defeat on this.

[Orlando Wood]

James will have to. Will have to post this. This ad in. In the actual.

[John Evans]

Okay. In the actual. Save my blushes gone.

[Orlando Wood]

It is Castrol gtx.

[C]

It is straight, square, curved, circular. The precise shape of every moving part. It clings to lubricating cooling. And protecting oil is too small a word for it. It is Castrol GTX Liquid engineering. Fit it in your engine.

[John Evans]

Ah.

[Orlando Wood]

Do you remember the ad where the oil drips down really slowly?

[John Evans]

Yes.

[Orlando Wood]

And then over the ridges and then down. How interesting. To that piece of music.

[John Evans]

Now you see, I remember the visual.

[Orlando Wood]

Yeah.

[John Evans]

I don't remember the soundtrack.

[Orlando Wood]

The soundtrack, yeah.

[John Evans]

Well, there you go. Lesson there for casting. A bit more. Bit more fluency in there. Well, maybe just to round us off with. I just like to mention my new job actually. So congratulations. Yeah, I've got the wonderful job of chief Choco caster. So I was over interviewing our good friends at Tony's Chocolate and they've made me a batch of these limited edition chocolates. So I thought, Orlando, as it's Christmas and you're a guest on your own show, but I mean, even so I thought, there you go, I'll donate you a limited edition. One of only 200, I dare.

[Orlando Wood]

Indeed it. Because it's so special.

[John Evans]

It is very special, yes, indeed.

[Orlando Wood]

That's wonderful. Well, thank you very much. I wish I brought another chocolate.

[John Evans]

Oh, you're spoiling me. You're spoiling me with these.

[Orlando Wood]

Ferrero Rocher, I would like to wish you Merry Christmas.

[John Evans]

Thank you. Well, I did better. I did quite well out of that.

[Orlando Wood]

You've done very well. Perhaps I should have that one as well.

[John Evans]

There's about 200 of these.

[Orlando Wood]

Enjoy, enjoy, enjoy.

[John Evans]

Merry Christmas.

[Orlando Wood]

Merry Christmas to you, too.

[John Evans]

One more eggnog.

[Orlando Wood]

Of the eggnog, just in case I.

[John Evans]

Wasn'T about to be sick. Marvellous.

[Orlando Wood]

It's a wrap.

[John Evans]

It's a wrap.

[Orlando Wood]

Do you think there's anything in there we can salvage?

[John Evans]

I'm not sure there's much. Anyway.