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Uncensored CMO
Rory Sutherland & Rawdon Glover - How Jaguar pulled off a design & engineering miracle
00:56:13
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A
Ladies and gentlemen, welcome back to Uncensored cmo. Now I'm here at Jaguar HQ and this, ladies and gentlemen, is the new Jaguar in the flesh. It looks unbelievable, but not just am I sat here next to new Jaguar, myself and Rory Sutherland have been on the test track to be driven in it, and we can tell you it is unbelievable to drive. And in this episode of Uncensored cmo, we're going to be talking to Rawdon Glover, the managing director, to find all about how they designed it, how they achieved such performance and comfort, and all about their plans to launch it later this year. This is fascinating. You're going to love it. Here it is. So I'm really excited to be back here with you and we've got a special guest joining us, Rory Sutherland as well, a big fan of Jaguar, having owned six.
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B
Six.
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A
Yeah, exactly. So you're the man to impress.
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C
Six jags, Rory.
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B
Six jags, Rory.
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A
But thank you for hosting.
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C
No, you're welcome.
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A
And letting us out on a test track. But let's start with the reviews. So obviously people have been in the car now, they've been driven around it and the reviews have been incredible. I mean, best riding car ever feels like an xj. So what goes into creating the drive the way that it does?
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C
First of all, you need to have a really clear essence in terms of what is it that we need to have as that dynamic capability. So it's great to have those sort of headlines, but it's. It's not just by chance. We spent hours distilling, I guess, the essence of what should a Jaguar drive like? I mean, you've had six Jaguars, you'll have a perspective. But what we did is we said to the team, the engineering team, the dynamicists, the chassis guys, these are the team that really decide how to drive. Said, go and drive the classic cars of our history and our heritage, because we really want you to immerse you in that and get to understand what. What a Jaguar should be. Now, clearly it's, you know, these are cars with very different technology, etcetera, but by getting into them and really understanding, yeah, not just in terms of, okay, refinement, control, performance, delivery, those things, but more importantly, how should a Jaguar make you feel? What's the essence of the brand? What's the DNA of the brand? That's where we started. And that really, then has been their challenge from then on in is, okay, how do we get. How do we get incredible refinement? How do we get a level of. Before we talk about power, in reserve, as a jag of expression of how much power do you need? Well, you. You always want to have some in reserve. How do you deliver that power? We need to deliver it in a way that the driver always feels completely in control of actually what they're doing.
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B
It's a lovely feeling that it's not about using resources, it's knowing you have resources you can draw. It's the deposit account, not the current account, as I was saying, you know, and it's. And I think deliberate self restraint built into the early application of power is totally appropriate, isn't it?
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C
And a lot of. Because all evs are relatively quick and we could have put all our effort into how do we get 0 to 60 in 2.4 whatever seconds. Well, actually, no, the. The impressive thing from a Jaguar is probably how it goes from 70, 30 to 70. Yes, that's so. So, yes, it'll be quick, 0 60. But actually the performance thereafter is. And how we deliver that power is really important. So first of all, understand it and then effectively use the. I guess the resources we've got are available. This is the most powerful Jaguar we will ever make. Over a thousand horsepower. It's got three separate drive motors. Two. The two at the back alone are capable of delivering 950 horsepower. So huge power potential. But it's. Then don't abuse that. Don't, you know, just understand how to deliver it and ensure that it's true to the brand.
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B
So it's not just what you have, but how you spend it. It is, isn't it?
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C
Yes.
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B
How you use it.
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A
The real shock for me though, was the comfort levels because the car is so low to the ground, it looks like a sports car. The wheels are obviously very large as well. You're expecting a harsh riding to be thrown around, but it's almost like being in an xj. I mean, the comfort level, it's just astonishing. Like, how do you get that balance between incredible performance and comfort?
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C
Yeah. So it's a lot about how the chassis is set up and we'd spent hours in terms of rig testing and just finding different ways of exploring the full capabilities of what that vehicle can do. And actually there's a lot of really interesting technical stories that we'll probably unveil at launch, just in how we've confounded some of those potentially. Because you think it's got a super low bonnet. Because normally what you do in suspension is the bigger the travel on the suspension, the easier you get to have that refinement to ride.
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A
Yeah.
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C
But We've got a really, really low on it. So how have we done that? And actually what they've done is, and I'll tease you with it, there are some really just genius ways, simple ways of. Right, oh, you've done that. That's how that works. That's why that's there and that's there. So yeah, there's, there's just lots of, you know, we talk about engineering ingenuity and that's the, the challenge for our team because we're, we're very, very, you know, this car is very single minded. You know, how it looks is really important and, and it's designed first, but it has to drive in a certain way and it has to have a certain level of range. So that's the, that's the challenge, if you like, that we've given to the engineers to say, okay, we, we understand the parameters. All of these things potentially conflict. We need to find a way where actually we can make them all live really harmoniously.
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A
I mean, Rory, it reminded me a bit of Will Godara's famous idea of choose conflicting goals, that sometimes actually trying to do things that appear contradictory actually forces you to be more creative and innovative.
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B
Yes. I mean, funnily enough, Roger L. Martin, the brilliant strategist, makes this point that, you know, resolving an apparent contradiction. You know, an enormous amount of innovation happens when someone takes something where they assume a trade off, come at it obliquely and effectively realize that it needn't be a trade off at all. And it's a, you know, it's integrative thinking I think he calls it. And it's a fantastic, really, really valuable skill. But that's what fascinates me about electric cars in general, which is the inherent contradiction we always assume, which is kind of comfort versus performance effectively disappears and other things. I think it's very interesting that ride and design and other things will come to the fore when to an extent, performance is a bit of a given. So, you know, fundamentally, I think the way in which cars are evaluated needs to be. You mentioned the fact that 0, 60 isn't a very relevant measure because you now have many, many cars that can do 0,60 in a time that nobody actually uses practically because it would be slightly insane. And the very metrics have to change, I think. But I mean the, the design integrity fascinates me. The extent to which you effectively design a car and then engineer to the design. Explain to me why Range Rovers to me and, and obviously actually all of your lineup but looks cohesive in a way that no other car does. You know, in other words, there's, you know, everything else. You feel that actually it's been compromised to the simplicity of manufacture or, you know, the engineers have overridden some aesthetic decision. And that incredible kind of way in which, you know, a Range Rover looks like a polished stone in a way that everything else looks like a collection of parts. I find that really impressive.
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A
Well, one thing I've been noticing in all the press, well, not only is the car wrapped in zebra stripes, which looks completely striking, but you've been testing it on an ice lake in Sweden. Like, what on earth?
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B
I did wonder that too.
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A
Why a lake?
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C
There is. Yeah, there's method in the madness. So testing vehicles on basically flat surfaces with very little grip is the best conditions for refining, basically, things like torque and power delivery. So for us to actually fine tune the handling of the car by taking it into those most extreme environments is optimal. And I guess, you know, in simple terms, if, you know, if it can do what we need to do it on an ice frozen lake in Sweden, you know, a wet, rainy night in Stoke is not going to be a problem. But also for EVs, that sense of whether it's the battery efficiency, the battery charging, your cold start, you're putting it under the most exacting conditions. So it's, it has a. It has.
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So it's cold weather testing at the
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moment, cold weather testing. We also do hot weather testing, so we'll do stuff in the desert which, again, you know, obviously the extreme heat, it brings all sorts of other challenges which we need to make sure we can accommodate. But, you know, this car will be the most rigorous, rigorously tested Jaguar in history. So for us, that sense of this just real sense of painstaking, let's put it through its paces because it needs to be the best Jaguar ever. So let's take it to the harshest places on the planet and, and really test it. So that's, that's why we do it.
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B
That's why I want to just add to any past Jaguar owners that the new one has an ice and snow code.
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C
Yeah.
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B
Which, by the way, to anybody who owned a Jaguar in the 80s, 90s or 2000s even, you will admit this on mud and snow, they were absolutely atrocious. Not their finest moment. In fact, if there was quarter of an inch of snow at home, I used to leave my car at home and go get a taxi. I was so terrified. Absolutely glorious in the wet, glorious in, in the dry. But ice or mud were a catastrophe. So this Is well, very, very well. Of course, it's four wheel, effectively four wheel drive.
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C
It is. And yeah. And as I say that the traction control, it just enables you to have a level of stability and the grip goes to wherever you need it. So it'll be, it'll be transformational in that sense.
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A
And the steering was quite tight as well. Is it four wheel steering wheel.
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C
All wheel steering.
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All wheel steering.
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C
So, yeah, so it's a long car. So the Production car's over 5 meters, but it'll have the turning circle of a Fiat 500. So it's, in terms of its maneuverability, which is that really important for the Jaguar, you've got to feel comfortable in it. If you feel like I'm driving a big car, then that's not a Jaguar, you need to feel comfortable in it. So things like the all wheel steer are really important.
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A
Well, this surprised me when we went out on the test track earlier and chatting to the engineer about it as well, because I said to him, how close is the real car to the concept? Right?
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B
And.
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And he's like, no, no, no. We had to deliver the same thing because often when you see concept cars and then when you see the real car, they've evolved quite a lot, haven't they, between the concept. But this is very true, isn't it? So what challenges did that give the engineers to deliver on the design vision?
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C
Hundreds. I mean, a point you talked about opposing with an ev. The more batteries you have, the more range you have is a general, which is why most EVs are quite tall.
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B
Quite tall because you have a big stack.
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C
But we've said actually no, we want our car to be low riding our production. 1.4 meters tall. That's really, that's, that's, that's pretty low. But we're also saying that's got to have 7km, 700km, 400 miles of range. So you, you have to confound logical thinking. So one of the, you know, nobody else puts batteries ahead of the bulkhead, so at certain position in the cabin, because actually you want to keep them away from, you want to keep them away from crash impact. Now, for us, the choice then is do we want to compromise on range or do we want to compromise on height? The answer is we don't actually want to do either. So, so we've found, we've patented it. We found a completely new way. We've got a battery stack that's ahead of the bulkhead. But actually what we had to then do is completely re engineer how in the event of an impact, how that energy is then managed. And again, that in itself, there's probably no logical reason why you do that, apart from just an absolutely kind of die hard, passionate, say, no, we need to deliver on that concept. Now, that in itself gives us an extra 70 miles of range without any compromise to the height and the design of the vehicle. And that, for me, that's a great little analogy for. That's the, that's the Jaguar story that's told over and over again. You know, we've got our own dedicated platform for a relatively small number of vehicles that if you just look at
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B
that, and it's 850 volt, not 800 too, isn't it?
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C
That would be like a. And you'd think that was an insane thing to do, but for us, it's. It's the O. We think that's the best way for us to. To compete and the best way for us to win is. Is kind of not doing it way everybody else does. And, yeah, that's. Yeah, that's. That's the Jaguar story. Really.
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B
Who do you envisage as the target audience, apart from me?
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C
Well, and John, I was gonna say, as well, I think so, yeah. As you'd expect, big capital project. We do, we clean it, we research. We. We do that now. People are open to evs.
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B
Yeah.
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C
First and foremost, there will be a group of people that are not open to evs, and that group varies in terms of size and magnitude, depending where you are in the world. But then what we found is there are certain unifying mindsets. So one of the things that they're people that are, you know, they value craftsmanship, they're interested in technology, but probably more important than anything else, they want a brand that's really individual. They want to stand out. They don't want to be driving the same thing that everybody else is doing on their street. So that. That desire for individuality and selecting a brand that actually speaks to them in that way. So that's when we talk about this sort of unifying mindset that's most important. And to be honest, whether they are super wealthy in their 30s or an existing luxury car buyer in their 50s or 60s, it's that little bit about, actually, I want to have something that's a bit different, and I want to have something that's got a narrative and a story and some real substance behind it. That's who we think will be buying these things.
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A
Well, a good proof point we had, Noel Mack was here from Gymshark earlier and he's a petrol head and he's got a completely restored, beautiful, pristine defender. And he's ardently, you know, kind of, you know, defender of that kind of thing. He walked in this morning and went, I'm buying that. Just like that. Saw it. I'm buying one. So I think you're seeing it in the flesh as well, is it's just because it, because it looks very much like a concept car design, doesn't it? When you see it in the flesh and realize it is as, as advertised, it's stunning, isn't it?
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C
Yeah, I think that sense of, I think, you know, we talked earlier on about familiarity and does that help? I, I think it's more physicality, actually. It was interesting. Null's impact is. Well, I've seen it on my phone, but actually seeing it here, it's one
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B
hell of a presence.
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C
It's. It's completely different.
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Yes.
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C
And we have that time and I, as you can imagine, I presented this to lots of journalists, presented to lots of clients at places like Goodwood and Pebble and all over the world. And the one thing with it we know is actually, you know, when you see it physically, the, the scale, the presence, the craft, because actually it can look quite flat, particularly in a, in, in, in the, in the color finishes. But actually then you understand the precision, how the intersections work, the real detailing that's gone into that craft and the love that's gone into it, you need to see it physically. So that's, that'll definitely be a, That's a challenge for us in terms of. Right, okay, well, how do we, how do we get that across and how do we photograph the car? So that's our next thing. The photography of it has got to be able to capture all of those things I've just talked about. And that's, that's actually something we're literally taking on this week.
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B
So it still has, in an incredibly futuristic form, that sort of British brand nod to the country house exterior, doesn't it? There's that slight, you know, that little bit of Robert Adam portico to the thing. And I suppose it's in the lower proportions that you achieve that, isn't it?
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C
Proportions are everything. So in terms of the production vehicle and actually same for the, for the concept car, there are certain things that, that are important to us. So if you stack two wheels on top of each other, that's greater than the height of the car. So the relationship between overall height and wheel size, really important.
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B
Whoa, you're right.
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C
Then you've got the size of the front overhangs is tiny. The length of the bonnet is disproportionately long. Doesn't need to be. And most EVs don't because you don't need to put an engine in there. So we can have a really small cab forward bonnet. But you end up with a vehicle with a very, you know, a lot of EVs with a very sort of homogeneous profile. Whereas for us, getting that sense of scale. And that is where there's perhaps a nod to. If you think about some of the iconic vehicles in Jaguar's history, whether it's the E Type or the XJS etc. They all had really exuberant proportions.
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B
Yeah.
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C
And you know, the roof line from the A pillar all the way to the rear. You know, for us, we never wanted to try and sort of do a resto model ape the exact design of things we've done in the past. But it was more about understanding the essence of, you know, when, when, when, when the E Type landed, it really shocked people. They'd not seen anything like that. I've read some of the early auto car. Auto cars are, you know, super important sort of for the auto industry. It's one of the most influential and it's been around forever. So I went back and read what did they say about XJS when it, when it replaced E Type as it is a spiritual accessory. And it's like, well, they love the refinement, the power. We've just heard that. But actually we're a bit concerned about how polarizing the design is.
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B
Yes.
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C
And like now that's car is seen as an absolute classic in terms of its design, its proportions, the beautiful sea pair at the back. So that's in our DNA and, and that's I guess also part of our story. And we talked about, you know, when we talked about first time around, the sort of fury and have you left your history and heritage behind? I think we've worked hard and we are communicating much more, you know, sort of overtly. And I say, look, this is, we talk, we call them the origin stories. Whether it's that sort of breaking with convention, whether it's the exuberance, whether it's how the car drives, whether it's our use of color, these are all things, you know, and I, I think brand management is about really peeling the kind of layers back of your brand and really understanding what are those notable high points. You think this is the essence of our brand and this is what we're going to celebrate. And this is what we're going to take forward until the 21st century. Yeah. Rather than. Which I think has. Has little integrity and little interest, frankly, people see through it. If you think, well, we just want to make one that was really successful, let's do that.
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B
Let's make a bit more of that.
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C
Let's make a bit more of that. Or try and do that with a. With a battery. Makes that. We've got no interest in doing that.
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A
It seems your new Spirit Jaguar campaign really shows that off, doesn't it? Because when you do see XJS and you see E type and you see the latest one all together, you realize how similar the silhouettes are. As you say, the long bonnet. And I also learned something new today about the. Is it called the premium gap? The gap between the wheel and wheel?
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C
We're obsessed with premium gaps.
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B
The premium gap.
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A
Yeah, I know, but there's actually, you know, in terms of how far you've got from the back of the wheel to the accelerator pedal.
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C
Yeah. So the premium gap is really where it'll be from where the. Effectively where the driver's foot will be to the center of the front wheel arch. And it's actually what gives the car its presence, in our opinion. And the proportions of the premium gap on our vehicle is identical in terms of the overall length of the car to what we did on E type. So there's those little sort of nods to. To the past without us saying, well, let's. Yeah.
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B
And so you've managed to use the premium gap to house some of the battery by changing that.
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C
By. By. By changing how we manage the crash structure. And again, this is. Say, without that, we just lost. We've just lost 70 miles of ground.
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B
Very funny story from this, by the way. I want to explain. I live in the roof, okay, in the attic of a Robert Adam house. And it was built by George III's doctor. And the story was he didn't want the house to be too large because he was terrified the king would come and stay. But every house then in the 18th century had to have an enormous staircase. So the question he faced was this fantastic architectural problem, which is, how do you have a suitably prestigious staircase, which is the premium gap of the 18th century. But in a small house, you'd end up with a useless U shape of rooms around the outside, all of which were too small. So what Adam did was he banged the staircase into the corner. So you came in through the front door and then you turned to the right. The staircase was in the corner. Which occupies about a quarter of the size of the house. And then there's quite a useful L shape of rooms, all about 20ft square that go around the outside. So that was the 18th century equivalent of your premium gap.
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C
Who knew?
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B
Who knew?
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C
Exactly.
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A
Reminds me of your James Watt story as well, doesn't it? Inventing the, the horsepower, inventing horse.
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B
Well, this is one of the questions which I was saying that the metrics have to change for electric cars and I think things like the 20 to 80% charging time is silly because in the five years I've had electric cars, I don't think I've charged from 20 to 80% more than about twice. And though, you know, I understand why those metrics develop. But one of the metrics I don't think we're understanding with electric cars is price. Because most people will react to that car and say it's very expensive. But compared to a petrol car that could achieve the same thing. It's actually a bargain. Okay, so, you know, I went out and bought a car, you know, now I only bought the 600, not the 900 horsepower Lotus Eletre, but it suddenly occurred to me that in petrol form, if I'd wanted that car, I probably would have had to pay three times as much if I wanted anything like the equivalent performance, quietness, everything else. And so this is another interesting question, which is one of the things we saw was people trading from an Audi to a Skoda, a petrol Audi to an electric Skoda, and everybody was completely bemused by this. And I said, well, the only awkward thing is in some respects an electric Skoda is probably better than a petrol Audi in all kinds of respects. In other words, when we're making this comparison between internal combustion engine cars and electric cars, it's in a sense, it's not an apples to apples comparison at all, is it? So that car is, in some respects, given what you would have had to pay to obtain something like that in petrol form, it's actually a mere bagatelle. I realize your socialist viewers are not going to. If I'm there saying 130,000 pound car, it's really not that expensive. But in some respects, no, it isn't, is it?
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C
But I think the, the, there's a point here about the purist view of the dynamics because as, as when you kicked off right at the start of the, of the discussion, said, you know, the response to the dynamics of the vehicle has been incredible. We, we're, yeah, we're blown away, you know, we were confident that Actually reading it, it was, is, has been fantastic. But what I don't think people are still quite getting is it is able to do that because it's an electric vehicle. Because you kind of say I love the way it drives but it's an electric vehicle. Well it is able to do all the things you love about it. So there's probably four. I mean I could give you lots but I'll give you like three or four. So there in terms of the driving dynamics that car has. So you know any dynamicist will tell you that they want 50, 50 weight distribution. Well if you've got a rear or a front mounted engine that's near on impossible of course. So with a, with an electric car you can do that. With our vehicle, the way we've designed it, the, the driver, because your cab rearward, the actual driver sits right on the center of gravity of the vehicle, literally centimeters above it. We've even created a foot garage in, in row two which enables us to lower the position of the seat of the driver. So you are literally on top of that. So, so the center of gravity is, is everything we talked about. The power, it's, it's got three motors but not only is it does it give you that incredible power and an ability to deliver that power pretty much in any way you choose. The ability to put the power where you need it. So whether that's traction control or whether it's you know, managing the torque and putting it, whether it's front, rear, left, right.
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B
We ought to say torque vectoring, should we? It's mandatory to say that in any car program.
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C
I was trying to avoid it.
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B
No, gone have to say experience. We better mention AI and torque vectoring. Now we've done it, we can put a big. Engineers will be happy. Thank you.
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C
Yes, it's instantaneous. It's done at a thousandth of a second. So that sense around, probably what you picked up on your drive is that sense of I'm going at high speed but I feel really comfortable because I'm sitting in the car, not on the car. As the consequence of that centric gravity also the car shrinks around you. It denies its size, you've got this incredible power but it's delivered in a way that you've got utter confidence.
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B
Totally sure footed. I mean freakishly.
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C
Yeah, those are all enabled because of it being an ev that's really important and that's going to be a key message for us to really land as we get into this next phase of.
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A
And it's funny isn't it? Because being electric, you think it's going to be very modern, very not Jaguar. And yet the ride feels like Jaguar. The kind of role in the corners feels like Jaguar. The progression of the. It feels like a V12 almost, doesn't it? You know, in terms of how the power progresses, which is incredible. So you feel more Jaguar rather than less Jaguar when you're driving it, which is astonishing.
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B
I was getting flashbacks to my ownership of, you know, the last XJ I had. Particularly in terms of the driving position and, and the sure footedness as well. No, I mean, it's very strange because the idea, the purists who I, you know, I, to some extent, I understand it, by the way. I mean, there are two things. There's a love of motoring and there's a love of cars and they're slightly in common conflict, aren't they? You know, in other words, you know, I understand, I, to be honest, I, in order to get to work from Seven Oaks to London, I support the electric train. But I entirely respect those people who worship steam and locomotives because they are inherently very lovely. And there is something about the internal combustion engine in all manner of ways of noise and smell, which is inherently lovely. But the idea that Sir William Lyons, for example, or Henry Ford, if they were alive today, would not be pursuing electric vehicles seems to me inherently ridiculous, you know, that actually Henry Ford did pursue an electric vehicle with Edison. The other thing I think is that the, the capacity, as you said, all those things are made possible because of electrification. It's not electric, it's not, in other words, a compromise for environmental purposes. It is genuinely. Yeah. And by the way, the scope. I think the other point I make, obviously not so much relevant to Jaguar Land Rover is the scope for widespread innovation in electric powered vehicles, including things like the Microlino, which I've test driven, which I rather love, you know. Now, you know, it's not a great motorway vehicle, but, you know, if you lived in Chelsea and your, your entire sort of scope of operations was going to Daylesford Organic and, and Whole Foods, okay, it would be really rather an admirable thing. Now you can't do that. Well, you can, they did, obviously there was the bubble car, but you can do it elegantly in an electric vehicle in a way you never could. A miniaturized petrol engine and, you know, things like the Heathrow pod, which I'm a huge devotee of, you know, and that's a form of transport that deserves to be explored much more because it's kind of Halfway between a taxi and a bus. You know, it fills that kind of missing space. All of that is open to be explored with electric in a way that we kind of hit a dead end, I think.
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A
Well, so much of this is challenging people's existing perception. I mean, I know you, you got retweeted by Elon, didn't you, the other day, which is hilarious. But what was the point in making about. If you imagine you were launching petrol today?
- [28:06]
B
Yeah, if all cars were electric, which was the default, conceivably that. I mean, if you believe some people, they argue that the early electric cars were more a marketing failure than they were a practical failure. And the idea was they became seen as very feminine because you didn't have to crank start them, because they were quiet, they didn't spatter oil all over the place. They were disproportionately popular with female car buyers at a time when female car buyers were probably 3% of the car buying market. And there is a school of thought that says they actually got depositioned because of the imagery, the user imagery, not because of the inherent technology. But my point was, if you imagine a parallel universe where all cars were electric and you went along and recommended the internal combustion engine as a source of motive power, you know, the whole thing would seem ridiculous. You fill a tank with inflammable liquid, you set fire to it, you need a gearbox, you need an oil filter, you need an air filter, you need a radiator, you need 117 moving parts rather than seven. And you'd go, well, what are the advantages exactly, you know, well, is it quieter? No. Is it, you know, is it better performance? No. Is it cleaner? No, it's really quick to refuel. Can you refuel it at home? No, no, you can't refill it at home. That'll be insanely dangerous. You can't have people with 200 gallons of, of gasoline under their house. So it's one of those reframings which, you know, I mean, it'd be as absurd as suggesting, in a sense, you know. You know, no one's suggesting petrol powered drones really, are they? You know, for the most part, fundamentally, everything has moved towards electrification. The only reason the car didn't was the whole energy density question, which is increasingly being solved year by year, isn't it? You know, essentially, yeah.
- [30:02]
C
I mean, I just to pick up a couple of points there that, that if you come out once, once you get used to driving electric car, the novelty of going back to a petrol station.
- [30:11]
A
Yeah. Seems crazy, doesn't it?
- [30:12]
C
It's like, yeah, you've got to go there, you've got to queue up, you've got to spend 10 minutes filling, then you've got to queue up and pay. And then my wife maybe, I look
- [30:19]
B
at those people, I look at those people filling up and they look. It looks weird to me. She says, yeah, because.
- [30:25]
C
And even, I guess with first generation range of, I don't know, 180 to 240, whatever, 94 of people do all their charging at home, but next generation range, so this car's say, 400 plus miles, you're only going to be charging at home pretty much. So this idea of range anxiety and inconvenience, I think is a. Is a real fallacy, but you need to experience it to go through that process.
- [30:49]
A
And Roy, as you often say, we're always focusing on range. We should focus on anxiety reducing anger.
- [30:54]
B
Suggestion for the user interface, which is when you're above 70%, you really don't need to say 73%. I don't need to know that I've lost, lost 1% of my battery capacity when I go to the shops, actually, 70, you know, the petrol gauge only gave you a vague intimation. The app should probably tell you the individual percentage because you're actually charging and you need to know. But actually that need, when I'm driving around, you know, 60, 60 plus, 70 plus would be fine. I don't need that level of granularity. And there are lots of other things where we could, you know, if you'd had good UX designers, the design of, of public charging stations originally, in the early days, was an absolute AB location.
- [31:35]
C
Yeah, absolutely.
- [31:37]
B
The location of them.
- [31:39]
C
Yeah.
- [31:39]
B
It was absolutely hopeless, effectively. I think range anxiety is hugely relevant to the buyer, to the user, it more or less disappears. So my wife's got one of the electric Mini Coopers, which only has a range of about 100 miles, because it's one of the relatively early ones. And even owning that in the entire time, it's five, you know, five years of electric car ownership. We had range anxiety once and it suddenly occurred to us, well, we used to get petrol anxiety once every five years. It's not actually, it's not actually that new. And so it's one of those very strange things which I think is massively important at the point of purchase, but almost irrelevant at the point of use.
- [32:19]
A
All right, all right. Sorry to interrupt this conversation. I promise you it's for a good cause. So I've just put a rather large deposit down on a very big venue in central London called the Outernet, that can hold 400 people. It's an amazing venue. Now we're going to be doing the very first uncensored cmo, the Calling. Now, what is the calling? The calling is your opportunity to join us live and be inspired by the world's best founders, the most inspirational CMOs and the best thought leaders. This is one day that will completely transform your career. I promise, promise it will be well worth it. I'm so excited to be doing this and if you want to find out more details, please go to the Show Notes and check it out. And I really look forward to seeing you there. It's on the 21st of April. Do not miss it. Now, back to the show. I'd love to know your take on Roden on Ferrari and Lamborghini. Oh, yes, it's fascinating how they've gone down different avenues, haven't they? Because Ferrari's gone very retro and Lamborghini's gone hybrid.
- [33:23]
C
They have. And I mean, interestingly this week Bentley have talked about they're actually not going to go hybrid. Their first EV is going to be EV only. So it's a real mixed bag, it really is, in terms of, in terms
- [33:34]
B
of how people and Rolls Royce is, is slowing down on electrification, they claim. Is that right?
- [33:40]
C
I understand that, yeah.
- [33:41]
B
Yeah.
- [33:41]
C
Whereas I think for us, it's what we've been talking about all this whole conversation, really. We, we started off saying we want to make the best Jaguar possible. You know, we maintain that all of those things that a Jaguar should have, all the things we've talked about that, you know, the grace pace, Grace pace and space, you know, power and reserve, all that sort of stuff is actually, it's just much better for us to deliver that. And as well as the, the design flexibility that it gives you in terms of package and how you can, how you can, you know, develop the proportions etc, for us, I mean, other people will do what they will do and I think it's important that we continue to look left and right. But more importantly, I think we've got to be really clear on what we've set out to do and this is where we want to play and this is how we think we're going to win and absolutely stick to that. And again, go back to your very first question, your very first statement is people have been blown away by the way the car drives. You know, this doesn't look like any other EV on the road. And certainly for a long period of time, suspect won't and currently I don't think it drives like many other EVIs. So if somebody says, well, we're really not sure there's EV at this price point, our answer to that is we're doing something quite different. So let's. Let's see how we do.
- [34:58]
B
I also think we ought to actually. Yeah, the. The I Pace was a bloody good car. Yeah.
- [35:04]
C
World Car of the Year. Yeah.
- [35:05]
B
Actually, my brother's still got one. Absolutely adores it. You're saying that the. The users of those cars are absolute devotees, you know, that that was a very, very fine achievement, which, you know, obviously, you know, it will be eclipsed by this. But we, we shouldn't forget, you know, that. That early stage we had tragedy if that were forgotten. And I suppose it's going to reappear as waymos to some extent. Is that possibly true?
- [35:28]
C
This. This won't be.
- [35:29]
B
This won't be a way.
- [35:30]
A
That would be a scoop.
- [35:31]
B
I was thinking that having an enormous rotating thing on the roof would kind of ruin some of the.
- [35:35]
C
Having spent so long retaining the purity of the design, I'm not sure I want to put a LADAR and radar contraption on the top and lots of fine. But. But, you know, yes, autonomous. There will be. We need to have a level of autonomous technology in the car. But actually this will be. This will. You will want this car because you want to drive it. So again, it's a good example. It's not about, oh, I'm going to buy that, because actually I can take my hands off the wheel. That's not. It's understanding what your brand is about and that's not what our brand is about. We will need to have, you know, we'll need to have a level of technology, we'll need to have great range, we will need to have key levels of, you know, autonomous driving, self parking, those sorts of things. But I'd rather double down and put our energy into what should a Jaguar be? It should look like nothing else. It should be like a. Like a sharp intake of breath when you see it. So it, like, looks, you know, and it should drive incredibly. So that's what we put our energies into.
- [36:30]
A
I think the challenge you're going to have is, like, if you're not selling cars today and this comes out, is it September?
- [36:36]
B
The car.
- [36:36]
C
We'll unveil the car in September. We'll unveil a production car completely in September.
- [36:41]
B
This year.
- [36:42]
C
Yeah.
- [36:43]
B
This year, yeah.
- [36:44]
A
How on earth do you predict demand? Because I have a feeling that, I mean, all the motoring journalists have been driving it and are blown away. We've been out in a drive. It's incredible. I mean, you're building up a lot of anticipation for this car. How do you predict sales this far out?
- [36:58]
C
Very difficult. I mean, we clinic it. You get an idea of, I guess, demand curves and you can use all sorts of modeling, but they're just indicators more than anything else. You know, we're confident there's a demand out there. I think, I think that particularly now we're getting into the stage, we are in terms of talking, be able to talk about the technology and the dynamics, et cetera. I mean, the nicest problem for me to deal with is we've got demand ahead of supply because in any, you know, as anybody involved in any type of luxury and particularly auto is, you do not want to be pushing volume in this space. So I'd much rather kind of say, okay, these are our ambitions. And actually if lead times get pushed out, that's an incredible, that's a nice problem for me to have. So actually, in terms of getting super excited and over committing with our manufacturing colleagues, that's not the place we're in and some things are worth waiting for and I genuinely hope that's going to be the case with our product.
- [38:00]
A
And what's the marketing plan? So what's going to happen between now and September?
- [38:04]
C
Yeah, so, so we've got an interesting. Over the next few weeks and months we'll be really delving into what we call the spirit of Jaguar drive. So the kind of story I told you before about, well, how did they go? So we will be taking a number of global journalists through that process. Drive our reference vehicles, understand what they are and drive the prototype, not the concept car. Drive the prototype as you did. So just really starting again, making sure people understand the link with our provenance because that's really important to us. So that'll be for the next few months. We'll have some interesting activations at places like pebble and Goodwood and then we'll unveil the car in September. I think unlike most sort of traditional car launches, they're big on paid. It'll be a big paid play for us. I think we see ourselves much more actually probably in the shared owned and earned space as a place for us to actually generate. And then paid really is about just making sure that that narrative gets targeted and presented to the right people. So don't expect kind of a traditional big auto type launch. I think that's not really what Jaguar should be doing. It will all be about being one of one. This is like no other. That's the kind of theme of it. But what we need to make sure is that the car is. The stuff are.
- [39:27]
B
Yes.
- [39:28]
C
You know, it's not. It shouldn't be about the marketing campaign I think we've generated. We've peaked people. That's just fair to say. We've peaked people's interest.
- [39:35]
B
I think that's.
- [39:38]
C
But now I think it's about actually the, the, you know, the vehicle, the people behind it. How we've arrived at. That's. That's what really needs to come through. Through this next phase. And it's just the most. Just the most exciting thing to do in the world. It really is. It's. I can't wait.
- [39:54]
A
Great.
- [39:54]
B
I can well imagine where is that buyer found? I mean it's obviously a mixture of urban, suburban, rural. Yeah, I think it's.
- [40:02]
C
I think it's really the dangers. You know we, we always do this with vehicles. You have your ideal target client and you have your. We're going to conquest from here and then you go back and you go well actually it was nothing like you thought.
- [40:15]
B
It never is by the way, with
- [40:17]
C
any product I've ever.
- [40:19]
B
There's a shopify function which allows you to look at just a random hundred pictures of your customers houses just to give an idea of who your customers are. And one of the people who used it sells very, very premium, you know, effectively farmers market organic food. And they had this idea of who their customers were and you can imagine and about 10% of the customers houses match the stereotype completely. The rest of them was more or less a random selection of houses.
- [40:47]
C
Houses.
- [40:48]
B
And it always is true. It's a personality question. It's not really, it's not really about demography. Obviously you're going to be wealthier than average in this case I think it's fair to say but at least as a new buyer. But that's one interesting question. The residuals of electric cars, is that an. Is that a growing issue? The residual value question.
- [41:08]
C
I think it different in different regions.
- [41:11]
B
Yeah.
- [41:12]
C
In a world where most people buy on some sort of finance program, residuals are crucial. In auto. A lot of the EV residuals have been hit. But the biggest driver of residuals is demand and supply balance. And the easiest way to destroy residual values is to oversupply the market. And we've seen that time and time again and we have seen sort of a little bit of boom and bust in terms of some of the demand for some electric vehicles. So the key thing for us in terms of management of that, I guess the most important thing is, is go back to the previous question, don't oversupply the market, but there are other things we can do. So in terms of control of your assets in the used market, so if lots of nearly new demonstrators and courtesy cars are all hitting the market at the same time, and all of a sudden there are lots and lots of car, well, that's not great for residual values and that depresses them. So we've got mechanisms in terms of how we're planning to control the first sale, the second sale, those sorts of things. So there are lots of things you can do, but the most important thing is manage the demand and supply.
- [42:15]
B
And one other thing, I was talking to Johnny Hornby. You've got quite a lot of hopes for sort of customisation division.
- [42:22]
C
Yeah, yeah. I think if you think about the customer I talked about, which is, you know, they're very, you know, they're very confident, their own right. They want to have something that's individual, want to have a car that stands out, if you. A logical extension for that. They want their Jaguar to be their Jaguar. So the idea of being able to bespoke aspects of the interior of the exterior to and to really make it yours is going to be a fundamental part of the Jaguar program. Not from day one, but it will be, I guess, a fast follow. It's also as soon as you get really beyond a certain price point, it's almost a table stake, actually, in terms
- [42:59]
B
of being able to.
- [43:00]
C
Being able to, you know, for these clients, because they want to say, well, actually, I want that color stitching and I want this interior and on that panel there, I want. Want this materiality and I want to engrave this here. And it's not. It's not just a Jaguar opportunity, it'll be across a number of the other brands.
- [43:13]
A
But that.
- [43:13]
C
That sense of tailoring and bespoke, it's going to be very.
- [43:16]
B
If you want a fun experience online, the Rolls Royce Spectre configurator website, you can go crazy. You can go absolutely insane. So I think there you could have two choices of color leather for the steering wheel alone, but you'll look to that slightly down the line quite heavily. Yeah, and I suppose that also solves the problem, because there's a little bit of a problem, the EV market between, for example, the Western concept of luxury and the Eastern. So in the sense that, you know, there. There's less minimalism you know, bluntly put, you know, so in China, people would want her PlayStation in the car, whereas most, most Germans would regard that as incongruous or, you know, I mean, for a long time, the Germans wouldn't even put cup holders on the car. But did you know this? It's because most Germans will not allow food or drink in their car under any circumstances. So Volkswagen engineers, despite the pleas of their American sales force, were refusing to put cup holders in Volkswagen. When Americans sometimes choose their cars on number of cup holders, there's a Dairy Queen bucket. But one of the great things about customization is it allows people in markets who want a little more elaboration to have a more elaborate car. And then if you want that kind of Lutheran minimalism, you can have that as well. So, which I think that probably bridges that gap quite well, because I know that. I know that was a problem Audi suffered in the Chinese market, which is. Well, you don't get much stuff.
- [44:46]
C
Yes. The process also of bespoking your car is actually almost as important as the end result itself. That sense of being able to curate, being able to get in inside the brand, being able to feel like I'm, you know, I can, you know, I can. I can choose that. I can bespoke that. And, you know, what we, you know, what we find is that that sense of discovery and their involvement in the creation process is, Is almost as important as actually the end result itself. And I think that's. That's not unique to cars. I think if you look.
- [45:19]
B
No, you're right.
- [45:20]
C
Luxury yachts and all that sort of stuff, those, those themes. So allowing people to feel like they're absolutely on the ins, Bringing them on the inside and, and allowing them to go on that creative journey themselves and explore it is. Yeah, it's just as important as the end.
- [45:34]
A
That makes a lot of sense. Had Nir Eyal on the podcast just written a book called Beyond Belief, and one of the points he makes is the anticipation of an event actually shapes the reality of the event more than the event itself. So how we think and feel as we look forward to something. And so all the Configurator does is it's setting up your expectation of what it's going to be like and shaping your kind of perception.
- [45:54]
B
It's a little bit like holiday planning, which is part of the pleasure is in the anticipation as well. But you're absolutely right, it does. Expectation actually has a weird effect on your perception of the ultimate reality.
- [46:05]
A
It does, doesn't it? So, Rory, if you were launching Jaguar, then we'll put you in charge. What would you be doing?
- [46:09]
B
Oh, blimey. One thing I do is I borrow from James Watt. I'd look for very innovative. I still think there's room for innovation in how we price new cars. Okay, this was a very mischievous suggestion. I was speaking to an audience of very rich people and I pointed out that you can actually lease a Rolls Royce Spectre now because it's fully electric and therefore there's no benefit in kind tax for much, much less than it costs to send a child to private school. And I pointed out that now there's VAT on private school fees. It's much more tax efficient to lease the role. You could see a few of the people in the room thinking, which of my children do I like? But no, I think there's still scope for innovation in pricing. You know, in, you know, in actually going back to Henry Ford was an extraordinary finance innovator. Nobody ever talks about that now. But the incredible innovation you can see in the early days of Ford in working out finance packages to sell the Model T, I'd also, I'd also look at recommendation programs that, in other words, I, I think, I don't want to give this away, but if, if you bought one of these cars and you were allowed to recommend one friend for a two week test drive, drive, only one friend, not everybody. You like, just one person. I think that could be an incredibly potent way to sell it because I'm, I'm very interested in the extent to which one of the invisible forces in marketing, I've always talked about habit and social proof, but when I, when I bought my first electric car, had my brother not bought one first, I wouldn't have had the balls to do it. In other words, I was what you call a tour. I was, I'm the person who's happy to be the second person to do it, not the first. And in the same way I think, I don't think I would have bought my current car if there hadn't been one of them in the Oxford car park, which gave kind of social proof and reassurance that I wasn't being a complete weirdo now. So one of the interesting things to me is the extent to which you could look at network dynamics in terms of the sale of this car. In other words, will there be hot spots of sales where you can concentrate trade? Now this never goes down well with finance people who want to sell to everybody all the time immediately. But when Warburton's went from being A local baker to a national baker. They didn't do it overnight. They did it one region at a time. And so that idea of actually, you know, localized, concentrated marketing, if, in other words, if you can get three or four in a locale, then you can probably get 10.
- [48:42]
C
Yeah.
- [48:43]
B
So there's something there about. Weirdly, this sounds good. This makes me sound like a sort of 20th century marketer, but the importance of geography, we shouldn't forget it. And so there's something there. I work with a company called Herdify, and they do very interesting work where they will look at what you might call pockets of extraordinary brand growth where they propose you concentrate your efforts. And that would be something that would really interest me because I also suspect that actually, although these people are, are very, very individualistic, they do tend to sort of live in the same places, go to the same places, attend the same events. So some, some looking at some sort of peer to peer system, you know, of, you know, recommendation strikes me as potentially quite interesting.
- [49:30]
A
I'm, I'm. I've been fascinated by your color choices as well. Yeah, the car. What's the color of the car we got in the background here?
- [49:36]
B
London blue.
- [49:37]
C
London blue. Well done.
- [49:39]
A
That's London blue. There you go. And we've had the pink one. We've had red.
- [49:42]
C
Miami pink.
- [49:43]
A
Miami pink, red, red one. The colors have been. Is that a conscious choice? Because they've been very striking.
- [49:49]
C
Yeah, I think, you know, the whole brand world that we've created is, is very colorful. It's. Without going into too much detail. It's. It's drawn from the sort of painter's palette of, you know, red, red, yellow and blue.
- [50:00]
B
By which. By the way, thank you for that alone because, you know, one of, one of the ways in which the car industry has gone backwards since the 1970s, apart from, is that the roads used to be actually quite comfortable. And there was that 1970s banana sick color, which was weirdly popular. Do you remember that Ford there was a kind of weird yellowy beige. I have no idea. It wasn't called banana Sick. I'm sure they had a. More. But, but the roads were actually quite colorful in my childhood.
- [50:28]
C
It's consumer choice, Rory. We all offer a range of colors,
- [50:31]
B
and then everybody is silver black.
- [50:34]
A
Isn't there over the years where it shows color trends? It's all white and then it went red. It all went blue, and then it all went black back.
- [50:39]
C
Yeah, yeah, it's, it's. And, and probably a lot of that will be the herd effect of. Yeah, Actually, what is everybody else driving? And I remember vividly when we launched Range Rover, we were. I was talking to a Range Rover client, and we launched it this beautiful. I think it was Salado gold or a beautiful color. You know, it was like nothing else. And I love this color. And they were specifying the car, and I caught up with them at the end, and I said, oh, you know. You know, I know I bought it in gray. I said, I know, but I always get great.
- [51:08]
B
There is.
- [51:09]
C
It's a. It's a. It's the confidence of the individual to specify.
- [51:13]
B
There's a Range Rover color, which is a metallic British racing green, I think, if I'm right, which is genuinely the most lovely car color, certainly for a Range Rover I've ever seen. It was just, you know, so it's. It's kind of slightly pearlescent, but in that color. And actually, to any Brit, the fact that most car manufacturers didn't offer green as an option actually pissed me off for all kinds of reasons. By the way, there's a funny reason for that. Do you know why it's British racing green? It's because, for. For legal reasons, a lot of car racing in the very early days took place in Ireland. And as a gesture to their hosts, the British team would paint their cars green to go over and race in Ireland as a kind of courtesy flag. Isn't that lovely? There you go.
- [51:55]
A
That's amazing. Well, that seem. Feels like a very good place to end, doesn't it? British racing green trivia.
- [52:00]
B
Yeah, absolutely.
- [52:01]
A
Well, let me just ask you, Rory, what color are you going to order yours in?
- [52:04]
B
Talking funny enough, my daughter would probably veto it, but Miami Pig.
- [52:10]
A
Miami Pig. It had to be. Yeah, it looks amazing, actually.
- [52:15]
B
Actually, Two Tone, if you. If your customization is coming out, would work.
- [52:22]
C
Dark at the bottom. It's beautiful. Absolutely.
- [52:24]
B
Wow. Okay. It probably sold me on that we could do a kind of Welsh flag thing somewhere.
- [52:30]
A
Two Welsh buyers.
- [52:30]
B
Two Welsh buyers, yes.
- [52:33]
A
Well, good luck. Rawdon, thank you very much for letting us out on the test track today, and genuinely massive credit to you, the engineering and design team, because what you've pulled off is genuinely astonishing.
- [52:44]
C
Thank you.
- [52:45]
B
A bit of absolutely nothing. Fantastic.
- [52:47]
A
Absolutely.
- [52:48]
C
Thank you.
- [52:49]
A
We look forward to September, don't we?
- [52:50]
B
Yeah, don't we just.
- [52:53]
A
So I hope you enjoy that episode of Uncensored CMO as much as I enjoyed making it. Now, by the way, I've got a new newsletter, so if you'd like to get my thoughts on the one thing that I take out from each episode every week. Then do subscribe to the One Thing newsletter. I'd really appreciate it. Also, I have another podcast just launched, Uncensored Renegades, with the fabulous Corey Marchisoto. She is one of the world's best CMOs. She's an absolute rock star. Every week we pick one topic, spend 20 minutes trying to fix it. So check out that it's in your feed. Uncensored Renegades. And finally, I want to give a huge thank you to my sponsor, System One. They generously provide so much support for this podcast, it would not happen without them. So, big thanks and lots of love to System One. I'll see you next time.
- [53:42]
B
By the way, one thing you must do with the demonstrator, you know that Ford, you know, I mean, literally Ford, not a Ford car, where all the cars get stuck.
- [53:50]
A
Yes.
- [53:51]
B
I've actually been through it. It's Nottinghamshire. You must just take one through, because one of the most ironic things about that is that everybody's absolutely terrified about electric cars, but actually, there's not a single case of an electric car failing to make it through that Ford, ironically. Is that right? No.
- [54:08]
C
How deep is it, though?
- [54:09]
B
Well, it varies hugely. That's one of the things. There are times. Yeah, don't pick exactly the wrong day. But taking that car with the camo on through that Ford would be great fun because it's quite funny, because seemingly quite capable cars fail there, but Teslas just plow through perfectly happily, which is, of course, you know, everybody with an electric car has this sort of wet weather paranoia, but it's completely the other way around.
- [54:34]
A
So British, isn't it?
- [54:35]
C
You know, I remember very early on, people said, can I. I take. Can I take my iPads in the car wash?
- [54:39]
B
Yes, we thought of that. How lovely, love.
- [54:46]
A
Where is it? Where is this ford?
- [54:48]
B
Oh, it's one. It's on YouTube.
- [54:49]
A
Yeah.
- [54:49]
B
And does anybody know what it's called? Rufford Ford. I think it's called Rufford Ford. And the point is, if you're going from somewhere in Nottinghamshire to somewhere else, it saves you four miles drive. And so people are basically emboldened to take utterly foolish risks in taking vehicles through this Ford, which varies from being an inch deep to literally 2ft, 3ft, you know, absolutely insane. And some cars will actually start floating and drift away. It's one of the best things on YouTube. It's utterly joyous, except for the pain of watching people completely destroy their engines. Funnily enough, there's some odd things, like Minis are surprisingly good because the air intake was quite high up, I think, if I'm right about that. So what? The cars that are actually good in relatively deep water and the cars that are bad are quite surprising, but it's
- [55:37]
C
also how you do it. So you have. If you stop swap, it's the worst thing you can do. Oh, yeah, because you have to create a wake, otherwise all of the water goes in the exhaust. Because if you just keep going. Yeah, you're right.
- [55:48]
B
Yeah. You have to keep moving.
- [55:50]
C
Even with. Even with a Range Rover with a weight, a range of a wades up to nearly a meter, which is bonkers. Yeah, but. But you still have to keep going if you're at sort of, you know,
- [55:59]
B
8, 800, otherwise the water goes back through the exhaust and you run. Yeah, yeah, yeah.
- [56:04]
C
So you can't stop shop.
- [56:06]
B
I'll send you the link because I've just gifted you a really Happy Weekend on YouTube.
- [56:10]
C
Indeed.
- [56:10]
B
Watching these cars fail, it's absolutely wonderful.