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- [00:00]
Susan Reno
Foreign.
- [00:06]
John Evans
Ladies and gentlemen, welcome to the uncensored cmo. Now, we are talking about super bowl advertising in this episode. I love the Super Bowl. It's the highlight of my year, where advertisers raise their game and deliver absolute knockout performances on the big game night. Now, one of the brands that has done a stellar performance this year is Pfizer. This is the second year running that they've done a Super bowl ad, and they have literally knocked it out of the park, scoring one of the top scores in this year's Super Bowl. So I'm delighted in this episode to be joined by Susan Reno, the chief marketing officer at Pfizer, to tell us what does it take to make a winning super bowl ad and what goes into it? Working with the agency, working with us at System One, and how do you make a Super bowl ad that is not only going to be a success on game night, but it's actually going to change lives as Pfizer deliver their mission to bring cancer treatments by 2030? This is a lovely conversation. She's got so much great advice to share, and I'm delighted to share it with you. Here it is. Susan, welcome to the show.
- [01:03]
Susan Reno
It's amazing. John, thank you for having me.
- [01:05]
John Evans
Well, this is exciting. So we've just seen the super bowl, and I wanted to catch up with you because, of course, you've put a lot of work into going onto the super bowl, and I can't wait to talk a little bit more about how you've approached it and what the results have been, all that kind of thing. But maybe before we get there, tell us a bit about yourself. How do you get into marketing, and how did you get to where you are today?
- [01:26]
Susan Reno
All right, so I started my career about 20 years ago, actually, in analytics, which I think is germane to this discussion. So I was in consulting first, and then one of my clients was Pfizer, actually. So Pfizer at the time was hiring, and I came over to Pfizer to be part of the analytics organization. So I started out in the U.S. part of the business, first in analytics, and then I got my MBA and went over to US Marketing. Then in 2009, I actually left the States and moved to Europe. So moved to Brussels. And for sort of the phase of my career, I was accountable for regional marketing. So lots of different therapy areas, emerging markets, developed Asia, developed Europe as well. And then I took the kind of third phase of my career, which was to move to the UK and took on general manager roles. So I was in charge of the hospital division for Pfizer in the uk. I moved over to the vaccines division for Pfizer in the UK and then ultimately became country president for Pfizer in the uk. So I sort of had a circuitous route. But I'm now, as of last, last August, I've come back home to New York to be Pfizer's chief Marketing officer. And in this role my job is to try to modernize Pfizer's marketing. It sort of links back to the original sort of phase of my career in that a lot of that actually is about how do you use advanced analytics, how do we incorporate complex data sets, how do we make sure that we're making data based decisions. So actually I've always found that that sort of solid foundation on the data and analytics side has always served me really well.
- [03:04]
John Evans
I can well imagine that actually. And most of us got a crash course into Pfizer during the pandemic, didn't we? Where we're like desperately hoping the vaccine was going to come and all, you know, delighted with the rollout and that sort of thing. Now obviously that's a little bit that most people be familiar with, but can you describe a bit about what Pfizer does, what your mission is for those people that might not be as familiar?
- [03:25]
Susan Reno
Pfizer's mission is to create breakthroughs that change patients lives. It's only five words and the idea is that it isn't something that sort of lives on a wall or on a PowerPoint presentation, that it's actually something that drives all of the decisions that we make. So if you think about for example, the pandemic experience, that ethos of really focusing in on proper breakthroughs, things that really make a difference is where Pfizer is focused. So I think we're probably publicly most familiar at the moment anyway in terms of our vaccines portfolio. But actually the area of the business that is becoming increasingly more important and will form sort of the future of Pfizer is actually in oncology. So we have a world leading oncology portfolio today. We have a number of standards of care in the oncology business and then we're also reaching for eight new oncology breakthroughs before 2030. So very exciting times for the company.
- [04:21]
John Evans
Now of course, during the COVID Covid period, you know, the vaccines were rolled out. Incredible pace it was, you know, every sort of resource was put in it. I imagine that it's not usually quite as quick as that, is it, in terms of how you develop new drugs?
- [04:36]
Susan Reno
No, I mean the Vaccine's rollout during the pandemic was. It wasn't just unique, it was unprecedented. You know, the speed with which that was done because the world needed them, you know, so there were lots of things that were done in parallel in terms of product development. So it's really important, I think, that we didn't cut corners, that we made sure that we were really transparent about what we were doing and how we were collecting data and collecting data in exactly the same way with the same level of rigor. But we ran clinical trials, for example, in parallel. We did lots of innovative things to try to speed up the process. So yes, I think the development of the vaccines during the pandemic was absolutely the fastest of all time.
- [05:13]
John Evans
Yeah. Now obviously the legacy is significant in terms of vaccine for Covid, but has that kind of also changed how the industry goes about future developments? Has it enabled you to become more agile, for example, and quicker at getting regulations through?
- [05:27]
Susan Reno
Yes, I think also there's an important development has been the advent of artificial intelligence as well. So we are starting to integrate AI really deeply into our sort of early stage pipeline development to help us identify which molecules are most likely to be the most promising all the way through to commercialization and sort of my universe around marketing and educating the public, educating healthcare professionals here in the US as well. So AI has been a big transformer, I think as well of sort of how we think about innovation and speed.
- [06:01]
John Evans
You mentioned your career path, starting out in insight and analytics as well. That's an unusual background, isn't it, for a cmo? I wonder what advantage does it give you in terms of being maybe a quote I absolutely love. Mark Ritson always says the one job of the CMO is to represent the customer where decisions get made. I love that because we often forget in our busyness to go and execute the latest thing that actually we're serving the customer. We need to bring the insight into the heart of the business. But I'd love your perspective on the role of insights in business decision making.
- [06:33]
Susan Reno
I think it's hard to overstate the role of insights in business decision making. When I look at whether you're talking about marketing or you're talking about general management, having the fundamental insights about what does the market look like, what do people care about? How does your solution fit in with the needs of whoever your target audience is? I mean, those are fundamental things that you need to make sure that you get right in order to be able to communicate effectively, develop products effectively, et cetera. So I think being able to develop daring and breakthrough creative. The foundation of that is being able to have the strongest possible understanding of your audience. So I see those two things as being actually incredibly linked.
- [07:17]
John Evans
Yeah. Now, talking about audience, you're in a quite an unusual situation that you've got a B, well, I guess in normal parlance, a B2B and a B2C audience, haven't you? Because you've got to talk to healthcare professionals that are incredibly experienced under pressure, delivering advanced surgeries, let's say. And at the same time, you've got to talk to patients or potential patients. So how do you deal with the kind of complexities of the different audiences and different users of what you make.
- [07:42]
Susan Reno
Do you know, it's an interesting question, because there are differences, of course, right? So healthcare professionals have a load more expertise and knowledge and they're interested in the science. But fundamentally, if you look at what a patient is trying to do, you know, what an average person is trying to do and what a healthcare professional is trying to do for them, they are fundamentally the same. Right. So as a person who is ill, you want to get better or you want to prevent disease. If you're not ill, the physician or the healthcare professional is there to be able to help support you. So there are differences in terms of the level of depth that we go into and how we describe the science, but in terms of the ultimate outcome of what we're trying to achieve, everyone fundamentally, I think, is trying to achieve the same thing. So if you think about, for example, the way that we communicate about science in the big game ad, fundamentally, it's sort of a foundational message that we use in the ad, talking about Pfizer's eight cancer breakthroughs that we're fighting for for 2030. That's a very scientific message, but it also is a message that has deep emotional resonance because it gives people hope for the future of cancer care. And that's something that is a human interest. That's something that's quite emotional for humanity, for average people, as well as being of interest to physicians who deal with oncology and are treating cancer patients. So I think there's a way very much to be able to marry those two things up. I think sometimes you can get so wrapped up in the head message, the intellectual message, that you forget that healthcare professionals are also people. And fundamentally, for a lot of them, the reason they got into becoming healthcare professionals is because they wanted to do something really meaningful and important for other people. So there is absolutely an emotional side of things as well as an intellectual side of things, I think for both.
- [09:30]
John Evans
Audiences, it doesn't get much more emotional than saving lives as well, does it? Whenever one of your loved ones is in care or in hospital for something serious, that's a very, very difficult time, isn't it? And naturally, obviously very emotional time. So you've got both a rational message, but you're also deal, aren't you, with people that are in incredibly emotional state as well.
- [09:51]
Susan Reno
And you know, I think, I mean, that's the same whether you're talking about communicating to people outside of the company, but also the motivation for the people inside the company as well. I mean, obviously our scientists are at the heart and the core of our business. But also I think a lot of us come to work because we deeply care about the impact that we can have on patients. So it is both intellectual and also emotional as well for us.
- [10:13]
John Evans
And you also work in a highly, highly regulated environment as well. And I found this wild when we started working together 18 months ago. And anyone not in the U.S. by the way, will find this crazy. But there's a thing called fair balance, isn't there, that you might need to explain it to people, but you have to dedicate an amount of your commercial over to talking about the potential side effects. It's up to 50%, isn't it? You have to spend of your commercial. So it's a rather challenge, isn't it, to sort of communicate the message while also telling people the things that could go wrong.
- [10:46]
Susan Reno
Okay, so I may have. My reaction to that question may be a bit surprising, which is, okay, so first of all, to explain what fair balance is for people who aren't familiar with it. And yes, it's the case for us DTC advertising, but it's a fundamental principle across lots of countries in terms of how pharmaceutical companies communicate, which is basically you have to make sure that when you're talking about the benefits of a vaccine or a medicine that you're also talking about the risks. And so it's very important that our communications are balanced and that they communicate both sides because every medicine, every vaccine has both benefits and risks. And so it's very important for us to be transparent about that. Now, how that plays out in the US is that in television ads, in advertising to consumers specifically, that means you have to dedicate part of your communication and your messaging to the side effect profile or other things that consumers need to know about the risks of a medicine or a vaccine in addition to talking about the benefits of it. Now my view on that actually is if you look fundamentally at what we're doing, what we create. We create medicines and vaccines that go in people's bodies that they trust to be able to help them either get better from an illness or to prevent them from being ill. This is a deeply trusting relationship and situation for patients, for healthcare professionals in interacting with us. So being able to have the trust of the general public, being able to have the trust of healthcare professionals is absolutely mission critical in terms of our ability to bring breakthroughs out that hopefully will change patients lives. So I actually don't have, I don't have a challenge with the idea that we need to be fair and balanced. I feel like that's what enables the trust then that allows us to communicate. So you know, to me it's not in conflict with the idea of our ability to communicate in an effective way. It's actually sort of a foundational thing that creates the trust that allows us to be able to operate. That having been said, when you look at the average star score of the pharmaceutical industry as an example, I think it's 1.3.
- [12:55]
John Evans
It is, it is. In fact, it's out of the 4,550 categories in the world that we try and we measure everything category, it's the lowest average star rating. Yeah.
- [13:06]
Susan Reno
So we are, we don't do a very good job of being able to communicate in an effective way. And you can see that with the star score. And for me, one of the things that's been really interesting is, you know, I left the U.S. i was out of the U.S. for about 15 years, almost two decades actually. And when I came back, the ads that are on TV today are actually remarkably similar to the ads that I was putting on air nearly two decades ago. They haven't changed in 20 years. And so for me, it's not the requirement that we're being transparent about benefits and risks that creates that problem. It's that as a sector, as an industry, that we're not doing a good enough job of communicating in an effective way, of making sure that our messaging emotionally resonates, that we come across authentically and that we're really thinking strategically about, you know, how are we communicating, what are we sharing, how are we positioning what we're sharing? I mean, you do have to be more rigorous and systematic, I think, about your communications within the construct of the regulations that we have. But I think absolutely there is a way to do that. And if you look at, for example, you know, what we've seen over the last sort of year or so, the systematic review that we've been doing at Pfizer with our consumer, consumer advertising here in the U.S. you know, looking at the emotional resonance, looking at the messaging, looking at the branding, looking at the music, all of those sorts of things have actually raised our star scores on average by about 40%. So it's entirely possible to be able to communicate in an effective way within the construct of the regulations, which I believe are completely appropriate given the seriousness of the nature of what we produce. But you do have to be more systematic and creative, I think, to be able to make that happen.
- [14:52]
John Evans
Yeah. And you've done an incredible job changing that star score in the last year. You've also as well, not just done that, but you've also gone onto the super bowl, haven't you, with brand new creative for Pfizer overall, I guess, in terms of having a corporate voice, what was the thinking behind that? Because that's a big move, isn't it?
- [15:11]
Susan Reno
It is. It's really exciting, I think. So I guess if you start with the sector sort of view on this, the sector average pharma score, if I'm correct, is a 2.2.
- [15:19]
John Evans
That'd be right, yeah.
- [15:21]
Susan Reno
So also not very good in terms of corporate advertising. I think if you look at it from a Pfizer perspective, we are in a really unique position. You talked about the work that we've done over the pandemic, so our awareness in the general population in the US is really high. So I think we have about 85% awareness of Pfizer, whereas the average is something like just over 50%. And if you ask actually sort of what are the associations that consumers have with Pfizer, you'll hear things like trust, like innovation, like science breakthrough. I mean, things that are incredible associations and are things that we uniquely have, if you look across the industry. So I think that puts us in a position of both tremendous privilege and also tremendous responsibility to be able to use that voice and that credibility. And the associations that we built up in the general public to be able to play a role in being able to get out the messages that we think are important in the most responsible way that we can. So a lot of our focus on, you know, the work that we've done associated with the big game, but also a lot of our work that we've done more broadly. Looking at the Pfizer brand and how do we communicate about the Pfizer brand has been a major corporate push for us overall as a company, because the goal is that we can use our position in the market to really be able to inspire people to take action, to be able to advance their health. So yes, it has been a real transformation about how you think about corporate advertising and being able to think about our role in society and the perceptions that exist with us and how do we use that for good. And so far over the course of the last 18 months, two years, we found it to be tremendously effective and something that we're really quite proud of.
- [17:05]
John Evans
Incredible in terms of deciding to go all in on the super bowl as well. It's notoriously expensive. And there's always a debate, isn't there, about the justifying the eight or whatever million dollars per 30 seconds that goes into it. How did you approach that decision? Did everyone sign up to that or was it a little bit of a debate about whether it was worth it or not?
- [17:27]
Susan Reno
Well, do you know, I think the Big Game is a really unique opportunity. Right. So I think it's something like 120 million Americans watch the Big Game every year. So if you're thinking about a platform where you can reach the broadest possible audience with a message, it really is unique in all of the different channels and opportun that companies have over the course of the year. And if you think about what I described earlier in terms of Pfizer's commitment to cancer, commitment to oncology, I think it's something like 40% of Americans sadly, can expect to have a cancer diagnosis at some point in their lives. So this is an area that affects millions and millions of Americans. So if you want to communicate effectively, get people to take action early in their journey, make sure they're diagnosing early, that they're treating early, all of those sorts of things that they're doing. Early screening, want to be able to reach as broad an audience as you can. So the Big Game is really unparalleled in terms of being able to do that. 2024 was our big game debut and we scored 3.8. I think we were 11th out of all of the Big Game ads, if I remember correctly. And this year what we were seeking to do is try to actually build on that and make it even better, more effective. And so we were really pleased to have ended up with a four point star rating, which I believe puts the ad as the number one most effective ad in your entire pharmaceutical database.
- [18:54]
John Evans
Right, exactly right. It is the number one pharma ad and we've tested thousands, thousands of pharma ads. So yeah, it's incredible achievements.
- [19:04]
Susan Reno
Yeah. So this has been something that I have been personally screaming from the rooftops for about three weeks from now. Three weeks now. So it's something that we're tremendously proud of. And then I think the other thing that we tried to do with the big game this year that we didn't have in place last year was to try to drive the traffic. So it's not just a reputational message, but also to encourage people to go ahead and get screened early. You know, we know that the treatment outcomes are much, much better if you screen early, if you find cancer early. So we're really proud. We've partnered with the American Cancer Society this year to place their cancer360 assessment onto PfizerForAll.com, which is sort of our one stop consumer hub that sort of helps people navigate the healthcare system. And so our hope is that not only are we sort inspiring people about the future of cancer care tomorrow, but we're also being able to actually provide practical help today as well. So it's absolutely building on the success that we had last year, hopefully with more arms and also with more effective communication as well.
- [20:07]
John Evans
It's an amazing spot. It's one of those spots that really does put chills down your spine when you watch it. I'm sure a lot of people will have seen it, but for anyone who hasn't seen it, just, just talk a little bit about the spot itself.
- [20:20]
Susan Reno
The ad opens on a little boy in a hospital bed, and he is watching the tv. And on TV is the opening of a boxing match. So you see him in the bed and you see him watching the sort of opening of this box king match. And he's looking at his hands and you hear the announcer say the kind of classic, let's get ready to rumble like that. And then the ad shifts from reality into this sort of epic journey of this boy home from the hospital, on his way back to his parents. And so the first moment where you realize that we're on this sort of epic journey is his feet come out of the bed. And instead of just a child's feet, he's wearing boxing boots, black boxing boots with gold laces, all the way up. And then you see him. You know, in a lot of hospitals when cancer patients go into remission, there's a bell and they ring the bell as part of sort of the celebration of leaving the hospital and being in remission. And so he rings the bell. But when you see him ringing the bell, he's wearing actually boxing gear. So he's wearing boxing shorts, he's got boxing gloves. And so he rings the bell as a kind of kickoff to this moment. And then all of a sudden, you hear the sort of powerful anthem you hear LL Cool J's Mama Said Knock as this kid starts his journey out of the hospital. So he starts to walk down the hospital corridor, and the people, all the people in the hospital start to crowd around him, cheering him on, celebrating him. Some of them are crying in joy about how he's been able to, you know, emerge victorious from what has been a really difficult situation. He goes through the hospital corridor and out into the street, where he encounters even more people. And the crowd builds and builds, all of these people cheering him as he's walking down, you know, doing the classics sort of boxer victory moves. You have confetti starts to rain on the whole scene. And then he goes up a whole series of steps and gets to the top of the steps and does the classic rocky maneuver with the hands in the air. And at that point, a super comes on, and it says, hey, Cancer, we're gonna knock you out. And for me, that's, like, the moment where the optimism of that, the determination of that, the resilience of that, you know, that this boy has won, he's beaten, is the most, for me, the most amazing sort of high point of the ad. And then it shifts again. The music shifts a bit, and you start to see the boy sort of transition back to real life. So from the sort of fantasy celebration of his victory into his actual life, he's running down the street. He runs home, and the door opens. His mom's there. And he goes and gives his mom a hug. And as they're hugging, it flashes back into a series of still photographs of. Of what his journey has been like. So it shows sort of him being in the hospital and sort of the journey of being a cancer patient going through treatment, out through the other side. And I think, for me, that moment, what it does is up until that point in the ad, it's a very celebratory hopeful. It's got swagger, you know, that this kid has emerged victorious and has beaten his disease. And then all of a sudden, you are reminded of the seriousness of what he's just been through, you know, so it takes you back to understanding his journey and what his family has now gone through, which makes the fact that he's now emerged victorious, I think, even more poignant, even more emotional and more serious. And then at that point, a super comes up, and it describes sort of Pfizer's role in this fight. So it says, pfizer is fighting for eight cancer breakthroughs by 2030. Visit Pfizer for all to join the fight. And so the ad is both a celebration of the determination and the resilience of patients. It is supposed to be able to create hope about the future of cancer care by talking about some of the science that's emerging. And then also with the reference to Pfizer for all at the end, hopefully it also gives people some resources to be able to do early cancer screening and detection and also find some other tools for other disease areas as well. So, yeah, so we're very proud of the ad. I'm very proud of the ad. It's been amazing how it's been received, achieved.
- [24:42]
John Evans
You should be very proud. It's the best pharma tested ad in our database and it outperforms the norm by an astonishing margin. I mean, that's the other thing, is how much better it is because particularly as you're in a serious category, aren't you? And therefore, you know, to deliver something that emotional, you know, in a serious category, it's not like we're talking about confectionery or pet care, something where, you know, just having pets or confectionery or beer in your ad would give you a high star. Yeah. The reference point in this is a difficult one. Well done. It's absolutely brilliant. You talk about your journey from analytics and insight. What role does the testing play in the process of getting to something quite as emotional as that?
- [25:28]
Susan Reno
I guess the starting point is that Pfizer uses System 1, as you know, for all of our ads. Now, I think we've tested 300 ads over the last couple of years. We think that having the sort of standardized approach with really clear benchmarks linked to roi, that allows us to be able to understand how our various ads are performing against themselves, but also how they're performing against other benchmarks has been extremely useful for us to be able to improve the sort of emotional resonance of the advertising that we've put out there. So our partnership on the big game ad is not unique. We do it with all ads. That having been said, the other big statistic that I'm really proud of is, I believe, and you can correct me if, but not only is it the highest scoring pharmaceutical ad that you have in your database, but it's also in the top 2% of all ads that you have in your database, regardless of industry. Right?
- [26:20]
John Evans
That's quite correct, yes.
- [26:23]
Susan Reno
I think this has been absolutely a group effort to be able to get here. So if you describe Sort of the journey that we've been on. We have a partnership with Publicis. They're our agency. When we started working on what we wanted to do for this year's Big Game, of course, we start with really great brief and really good insights and all those sorts of things. Publicists brought us, I don't know, maybe six or seven different options, all of which were coming at it from different angles, different emotions, different calls to action, et cetera. And at that point, we were looking at multiple different versions. So do we talk about multiple therapy areas? Do we just talk about one? Pfizer has lots of medicines and vaccines in different categories, and so was there a specific place that we should focus, et cetera? So we put all of those into System one to start to get a sense of where we should narrow down. And we started to land on the kind of concept that ultimately became the Big Game ad at that point. Then we put it back into testing to realize that we needed to not focus on multiple therapy areas, but really we needed to focus in on oncology. That that was the one that had the greatest resonance and the greatest fit, also with Certiphizer's mission and our promise and our commitment for the future. Then the next big pivot point was we actually had two different endings to the ad as well, and they both scored reasonably similarly. And I remember trying to figure out, I think we sat you, John, personally, which is amazing, to get some advice about what should we do, which direction should we take? And I remember you looking at the trace scores and being able to say, look, this one, it scores really well, this ending, but I think you're about at the peak that you're going to be able to get to in terms of emotional resonance, whereas this other one, if you can sort of overcome a blip that we were seeing at a certain point in the ad, then I think you can actually get to an even higher emotional resonance. So we are, in our work around testing. It's not. We don't test something at the end and then sort of hope that it works. We're testing it all the way through. We're looking at it sort of second by second, making decisions about how swapping things out, switching things around, will make a difference in terms of the story arc and then also the emotional reaction as well. So the ad itself is the result of many, many rounds of testing and many, many rounds of feedback and advice, I think, both from the agency side, from our side, and then also from your side as well.
- [28:44]
John Evans
Well, you mentioned Publicis, actually, and Massive credit to them as well, because firstly for the creative ideas which are brilliant. And actually there were a lot of great contenders in the early rounds as well that all did quite well in early stage testing. But I mean this one was standout and my favorite one as well from early on. So I'm really happy that it came through. Well, you always kind of look as a professional, as someone who's there to help testing. But of course you have your own point of view as well, don't you, as you go through it. But I think it's a really good example of where the creative agency, you guys as obviously the client and we as the sort of the. The tester in this process kind of collaborate as well. Because even as you described it as well, I think you're absolutely best in class in terms of deciding the role of the music, in terms of the peak ends, the role of editing. So which scenes do you use and which order do you use them in? So even dance decisions like that, you and the speed at which you're able to turn things around. I mean, I don't think I've ever been testing at the rate of knots that we test with you, honestly. So we filled up a few weekends over the last few weekends going right, can we get this tested on Sunday? So results are back first thing on Monday and even within the day, I think we were kind of turning around testing as well, which is amazing. It's great and obviously a lot riding on this.
- [30:00]
Susan Reno
But do you know though, I mean, I have an amazing team that really wants things to be perfect. So we really were looking at it second by second by second trying to understand what was happening and how we needed to adjust. I think also I need to give credit to the senior leaders advisor as well, because one of the things that can derail ads is if you let your personal opinion come before what the testing results are. Right. And you know, an individual's reaction to a piece of creative is very individual. So one of my own views is that you always have to be guided by what the research says. And one of the things that I was really pleased about, this is my first big game ad. So it was my first sort of exposure to how senior leadership was thinking about it is they were absolutely laser focused on what the research was telling and going in the direction that the research was telling us about how the ad would be received. So we very much were aligned in terms of having one source of truth about how we needed to move forward with the development and then ultimately the rollout which I don't take for granted. It's quite a privilege and a positive thing to have.
- [31:00]
John Evans
You're quite right, actually. I mean, your team are so exceptional at that. Obviously. We work with lots and lots of people, and not only do they really believe in the role that the testing plays and the standard you're trying to adhere to, to, but the passion that they have for the work is just amazing as well. And. And what makes me happy as well, because, you know, as, you know, as something I do every day, is just to see the delight from the team when they see the score go up and the celebration is lovely. It's just. And it makes it, you know, it's. It's. It's great to see, but it makes it extra worthwhile when you see a team respond with such enthusiasm and in your publicist as well. It's just brilliant. A real team effort. You can see how much people care about the quality of the result and what it all means as well for you as a business, which is exciting.
- [31:47]
Susan Reno
And one of the things also that for me has been really exciting is as the ad developed and we started getting more and more partners involved. Right. So we have a partnership with LL Cool J, for example. His wife, sadly, was diagnosed with cancer. And so he and his wife are also working with us to raise awareness around early screening and detection. But of course, it's his music in the ad. And so there was this amazing moment in the development where he was listening to. He was watching the ad, listening to the music, and he was saying, you know, this is amazing that my song is being used for this great purpose. And he's like, but. And he called up one of the creatives, and he's like. I think in the transition between this scene and this scene, if you add a beat of the song here and cut a little bit away here, I think the musical arc will be more powerful. So, like, LL Cool J leaned in to help us optimize the ad. The American Cancer Society has been tremendous. They've been absolutely incredible in terms of, you know, they saw the ad very early on. They were really supportive. The partnership with them has been really powerful and, you know, really important from our side and hopefully important in terms of the credibility of the efforts as well. So there has been a lot of mothers and fathers to this particular ad, and I think all of us are proud of it and hope that it does some good in the world.
- [32:59]
John Evans
Yeah, well said. I mean, you know, the music thing is such an important role. And as you say, the way it slows down after you've got the rocky moment that's critical to the feeling you have in the final section where it cuts back to reality and you have that bump back to, yeah, this is real. This, this is real. And then you see the emotion of the hugs of the family at the end and you think, wow, that's, that's the, you know, the chill moment, isn't it? And the music is a key part of that. The way, as you say, the way he kind of changed, you know, the way the song's been changed in that second half is, is very profound. Um, I was going to ask you that because one of the things that I used to be a System 1 client actually, because I, most of my career was client side. And the one is funny. When people used to say to me, what do I use the testing for? My answer was often actually it's about confidence. It's about confidence in you're taking the right direction. But it's also about confidence in the broader business getting behind something, whether it's kind of the board or senior management. And is that how your experience has been in terms of its.
- [34:01]
Susan Reno
Yeah, I mean, I would say it's deeper than that. Certainly. Confidence, absolutely. Because like I said, it gives you a single source of truth that you can use with everyone. And because it's independent, because it's validated, because it's standardized. There's no sort of second guessing around whether you're cherry picking certain data or trying to make yourself look good or whatever. Like the score is what the score is and you have a database. We have been eagerly in the entire prep up to the big game. As you know, we have been looking at our rankings relative to other ad rankings and seeing where we are relative to other companies, it becomes the North Star in terms of whether you think you're communicating effectively. Absolutely. In terms of getting alignment and confidence around it, yes. But for me, the part that has really been the fascinating part is the degree to which you can forensically look at exactly what's working within an ad and what isn't working. Another good example is the first time that we put sort of the finished ad through. One of the things that was lower was around brand fluency. Right. So the degree to which people understood that this was an ad from Pfizer. And I remember your team saying, look, you need to give people a clue that this is a Pfizer ad earlier in the ad so that people can follow the storyline and understand what it is that you're trying to communicate. So there is a point when the boy is on his epic journey. When we cut to a Pfizer scientist who's looking out the window and kind of nods at the boy. That's actually a real Pfizer scientist. It's actually an actual oncologist who is working on developing new oncology therapies that we invited to be part of the ad. And that piece was created because we knew from System One that we needed to increase our brand fluency. And so being able to make it clear to people that this was an ad from Pfizer, but at the same time making sure that we weren't taking over the whole narrative. Right? Because there's a very fine line on something like that. What you don't want is for that to be so prominent that it looks like we're taking credit for the success of the boy, because the success of a patient, of a healthcare professional of their family. There are obviously lots of people that are involved in that journey and that own that success. But we also want to make sure that people know that it's a Pfizer Ed. So I think the testing, some of it was about confidence, but we were really making decisions second by second about what we were including or not including in order to be able to get to the right place. And I agree with you. I. I think my team deserves a lot of credit. The publicist team deserves a tremendous amount of credit. I mean, they were working nights and weekends. I think they must have gone crazy by the time we finally finished the ad of, like, the number of revisions that we'd done, the number of calls to action that we had tested. I mean, all of that was they were turning it around overnight again and again and again for us to get to a place that we really felt confident about. And I think there's a professional pride in that. But also I think there is a pride in the sense of. I think this may sound cheesy, but I think we all genuinely believe in the message that we're trying to communicate. And so we want to do right by cancer patients, by the science, by what we're trying to do as a company. I mean, all of those things actually matter. So for us, making sure that we were able to communicate in the most effective way was sort of morally important as well as being sort of professionally important as well.
- [37:21]
John Evans
You made a really good point about the fluency in the scene that you just talked about there. And something we try and encourage all clients to actually is to authentically place yourself in the story rather than just like here's our logo, or like, you know, here's our packshot or whatever. Find ways to embed yourself in the story. And that, that was, you know, a perfect example. The other thing, actually, I noticed it was quite striking coming through the research when we're looking at different, even different edits, is the associations people had with the Pfizer brand differed. It really, with some quite fine tuning, so some very subtle different executions of the same idea. Actually, you could see how people took out a different message, you know, if it was a broader message or it was a more specific message. But it's amazing, you know, I think people don't realize how small changes in these kind of things can actually lead to quite big differences in how people perceive you as a brand completely.
- [38:15]
Susan Reno
You know, one of the things that surprised me was if you were to ask me before testing, what are the critical things in order for people to understand that this is a Pfizer ad, for example. Right. It would have been the amount of time that we had with the scientist and the degree to which you could see the logo on her lab coat. And it's also, of course, at the very end when we're talking about the breakthroughs and we're talking about going to PfizerForAll.com, and we have the logo up at the end. But actually there were versions of the ad that had those two things exactly the same, but the middle bit was slightly different. And depending on where people were emotionally in terms of how they were responding to the middle bit made them more or less pay attention to or notice the logo at the end. So that, to me was. It was completely counterintuitive in terms of how people were absorbing information. Very much depended on where they were in terms of their emotional state at the point at which the information was presented. And being able to actually see that real time at the level of detail that we were able to see, it was incredibly helpful.
- [39:17]
John Evans
Helpful, yeah. Amazing. And how do you. How do you evaluate the. The impact of something like a big super bowl ad?
- [39:23]
Susan Reno
Yeah. So, I mean, I think there's reach, obviously, but, you know, if you're looking at the big game, you get reach naturally out out of that. Last year, if you look at the number of visits that we had to our site following the big game, I think we had about 2 million visitors over the course of 10 days, which way exceeded all of the traffic that we had to any of our other corporate sites or our branded sites or any of that sort of thing. So reach is one element we're at the quality of the creative, the ability to emotionally connect. So of course last year we had a 3.8, this year we have a 4.4. So we can tick the box there that we feel like we're communicating in a more effective way this year, which is great building on what we did last year. We're also looking this year about how this can be integrated into a full year campaign. So rather than being a one off effort, which is what it was last year, this is the kickoff of a full year campaign where there'll be presence on all of our digital platforms, there'll be presence on social media, community outreach and all of the other channels that we have. So there are specific metrics attached to each of those as well. So if you look at like Pfizer for all, for example, which is the website that we are inviting people to go take a look at, there are cancer screeners, there's the ACS, the American Cancer Society's cancer 360 screener. There's also screeners for or questionnaires for atrial fibrillation. There are, there's information about migraine, there are things about vaccines. So there are a variety of different things that consumers in the US of course, because this is a US audience can to be able to help navigate the healthcare system and get home delivery of Pfizer medicines, or understand what their vaccine eligibility is, or be able to identify whether they're at risk for certain kinds of cancers and be able to schedule an appointment. So our hope is also that we're making an impact in terms of being able to help support people today. So we'll be monitoring all of the metrics around that as well to make sure that the pull through into the patient support that we want to be able to kind of rally people around is actually happening as effectively as we expect it to as well.
- [41:25]
John Evans
Super important, isn't it? Super, super important that that happens. I wanted to pivot a little bit if I can. You've done a lot in your career. You know, you've managed different markets, you know, you've come up through insight, you've been general manager. Now you're the CMO of one of the kind of biggest brands in the world. What advice would you give? What have you learned on the journey about what, what makes a great cmo?
- [41:46]
Susan Reno
I think the first thing would be you have to be a really good listener. So you have to be a really good listener in terms of understanding the needs of your customers. And as you've correctly mentioned, if you think about my sector, you have hcps, you have patients, you also have government bodies, you have regulatory authorities. So understanding where each of our stakeholders are, what they're looking for, how we can fit into the solution, how we can support that, is really important in my sector as well. Being really, really laser focused on the patients, patient is absolutely critical. That is why we exist. If we weren't able to create breakthroughs that help people either to get better or prevent illness, then we would not exist. So you have to stay focused on the people who benefit, hopefully, from what you're creating and really understand deeply what their journey looks like and make sure that you're tailoring your messages to them. And I think the final thing I would say is the use of data is just irreplaceable. There is so much data, particularly in the U.S. now, to help you understand what's happening, but then also to really refine and optimize what you're doing. So I think in the old school, when I started sort of my career in marketing, you were very focused on, you did an atu, you understood sort of, you did some basic message testing, you did sort of some of that stuff and then you created a campaign and you tested the campaign at the very end to understand whether it was good or bad, and hopefully it wasn't bad, and then you could put it on air. The sophistication now about how we can understand our customer base, how we can tweak, as we've just discussed over the period of this discussion, the way that you can tweak your messaging so that it resonates in the right way is extraordinary. And then when you start talking about deployment from a media standpoint, for example, the AI algorithms that exist to help you find the audiences that are going to be the most receptive, that are the most interested in your message, I mean, all of that that exists today is absolutely incredible. So staying paying attention to the data, paying attention to AI, to predictive analytics, to what the data tells you, and being willing to adjust and modify dynamically on the fly would be the other, I guess the final, final point of advice.
- [44:07]
John Evans
That's great. I mean, people assume that as a cmo, it's all kind of innovation, creativity, arts and that sort of thing, don't they? But actually, you know, you're in a business, you need to look at how you're shifting those business metrics and delivering results. And the data is so important, isn't it? And I mean, other people on the C suite often have, if you're in sales or if you're in finance, you've got a lot of, you know, data is standard really in your world. But I think with one of the challenges that cmos often faces, faces actually bringing the data to the party. But it's so critical, isn't it? And then it's often the best way of winning over your colleagues and the organization if you can bring the data. Because it's hard to argue with that completely.
- [44:43]
Susan Reno
There's that old adage that if you ask people what they wanted, they would have told you a faster horse instead of a car. I take issue with that because the premise of that old adage is that you're asking people what the solution is. The creativity is in finding the solution. But asking people what their problem is is something that absolutely has to be grounded in an insights based approach. Like if you don't understand the problem, like in that metaphor as an example, the problem is you can't get from point A to point B fast enough. That's the problem. And then the creativity kicks in around how do we solve that problem in a completely new and different way? How do we transform the solution to that problem? If you think about, about my industry, you start with nothing and then you innovate and create an entirely new science that then solves people's problems from nothing. You know, I mean the innovation comes from how do you solve the problem. It does not mean that you shouldn't be looking at the data to try to understand what the problem itself is. So to me there's a really important distinction. There is creativity and art and daring and all of those sorts of things are, I mean, are, you know, bread and butter critical to being a great cmo. But if you don't understand what the problem is, there's no creativity that you can put at that that actually solves it because you're pointing it in the wrong direction.
- [46:05]
John Evans
Yeah, I love that, that's a really good, I love that definition because we often have this debate in marketing between sort of data led performance led marketers and the sort of brand led marketers who are supposedly more creative. But your definition spot on because actually creativity is in coming up with the ideas and the solution. But you've got to start with the data and then with the data, you know, in terms of like what's the problem, you know what, you know what solutions are going to work and then evaluate what they have done and make sure you're evidence based. And I think that's, that's a beautiful way of kind of solving that conundrum that marketers often get categorized into the data LED ones or the creative ones. And actually it's the combination of both, isn't it? And that's critical maybe to round up then. So looking back on your career is what would be the one bit of advice that you'd give a younger version yourself or to somebody starting out?
- [46:53]
Susan Reno
You know, you do this as part of your career planning at big companies, Certainly Advisor, you are often asked sort of, what do you, you know, what are you aiming for? What do you expect to do in three years? What do you expect to do in five years? My own personal experience was that I never had any idea what I was going to be doing in three years or five years. You know, I was always trying to find things that were, that were interesting and that I felt like would grow me and grow me professionally, but also be interesting from a life experience standpoint as well. Well, and there was a certain point in my career where I just sort of gave up on that obligation of having to sort of define my own life. Because if you'd asked me at the beginning of my career where did I want to end up, I would have said I wanted to be a market research team leader. That's where I would have wanted to be. I never thought that I was going to be moving around the world and living in all these different countries and leading up countries and then becoming the chief marketing officer for a Fortune 50 company. I mean, those things were never on my radar. So my recommendation would be to relax a little bit, go for the things that are, that are fun and interesting, do a really good job, be good to people, be a good collaborator and don't focus so much on the end goal, focus on the journey itself.
- [48:04]
John Evans
Oh, I love that advice. That's so good. That's so good. I mean, I've been reflecting on that a lot myself and maybe it's age, but I just think following the energy. Energy, right. Work out what gives you energy, you know what I mean? Because if you've got the energy for it, you're going to do a much better job and then become really good at something so that people want you, you know, want you to in their team or and so on. And then you're absolutely right is that, you know, we used to have this idea that a career was like this ladder of this to that, to that and so on. But actually today's careers are much more. I mean, there's a book called Squiggly Careers which I love as a concept, you know, and it Is that, isn't it? You have. You can only take what opportunities that are there in front of you, and you need to create those opportunities, but it's really hard to predict what those will be in five or 10 years time. So almost kind of building your network as well. I mean, man, your network is your wealth, isn't it, in terms of opportunity? So building that up as quickly as you can as well, is going to help you.
- [49:00]
Susan Reno
And I'd also say don't be intimidated by other people's careers. I call it the Instagram version of someone's career. When you get up on stage in a panel or something like this, and you go through sort of the litany of everyone's successes, and you don't hear about the time when something went horribly wrong and the person failed and was crying in the bathroom and those sorts of things that happens to everybody. So I think don't get too intimidated by these stories of extraordinary success and jumping from one amazing thing to the next amazing thing. Everybody has failures. Failures are really, really important. So I think it's also really important not to compare yourself to others and to continue to have confidence in yourself and be able to try to make yourself the best that you possibly can be.
- [49:42]
John Evans
And in fact, you probably learn a lot more in those failures as well. And those, oddly, those failures are almost like springboards that you can use them as energy and also use them as insight into what didn't work. That can help you go on. The other thing that actually that I discovered as well, that I kind of maybe wish I'd learned earlier, is sometimes you can create the job you want. You know, we kind of think that we have to apply for the job we want, but the other option is you create the job you want. A bit like doing this podcast, but you can, you know, you know, if you spot an opportunity in a company for something you don't think is there, put yourself out there and say, I want to go and fix this. I want to build this. I want to be the person that does it. And very often you can kind of create your own career, but we sit there waiting to be asked so often that we are waiting for the HR manual to tell us the next step. But go create it. Go find it.
- [50:28]
Susan Reno
You know, Completely agree, Susan.
- [50:30]
John Evans
It's been a real joy to speak to you. Thank you so much for doing this. It's a genuine pleasure to work with you, work with your team, and we've thoroughly enjoyed being part of this super bowl journey and dead proud of what you've what you've achieved so massive. Congratulations to you and the team and thank you for being open to coming on and sharing your journey and all the wisdom as well. Thank you.
- [50:51]
Susan Reno
No, my pleasure, John. Thank you for having me on and thank you for all of the partnership along the way and being willing to turn things around in crazy time periods over weekends to help us along the journey. I hope that the end has justified the means and I hope when we all look back on this that we will all agree that we've done something really amazing. So thank you all the way.
- [51:11]
John Evans
Totally certain of that. Thank you. Thank you very much for listening or watching Uncensored cmo. I hope you enjoyed that. If you did, please do hit the subscribe button wherever you get your podcast. If you're watching, hit subscribe there as well. I'd also love to get a review. Reviews make a big difference on other people discovering the show, so please do leave a review wherever you get your podcast. If you want to contact me, you can do I'm over on XenSoredCMO or on LinkedIn where I'm under my own name, John Evans. Thanks for listening and watching. I'll see you next time.