The power of incredible customer experience - Jamie Domenici, Klaviyo

Summary

Uncensored CMO – The Power of Incredible Customer Experience

Guest: Jamie Domenici, CMO of Klaviyo
Host: Jon Evans
Date: June 22, 2026

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Episode Overview

In this lively and practical episode, Jon Evans sits down with Jamie Domenici, CMO of Klaviyo, to dissect the power of customer experience in modern marketing. Through candid stories, real-world examples, and advice from tech industry veterans, they explore why customer experience matters, its role in brand loyalty, the intersection of marketing and customer support, lessons from hypergrowth environments like Salesforce, and how AI is reshaping everything. Listeners are treated to actionable tips on storytelling, event marketing, public speaking, and the evolving skills CMOs need in an AI-first world.

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Key Discussion Points & Insights

The Roots of Customer Empathy

• Jamie’s Unusual Start:
  • Jamie began her working life as a teenager in her family’s funeral business, gaining early, profound lessons in empathy and compassion.
    • “You really are with people when they're in their most sad moments… it gave me a deep understanding of being compassionate and really understanding my customer.” (B, 01:41)
  • This foundation instilled a customer-first mindset crucial to her later success in the technology sector.

The Impact of Customer Experience: Stories from Both Sides

• Best Experience: Aloe Yoga
  • Personalized notifications tailored to Jamie’s needs as a tall customer:
    • “Anytime they have a drop or a sale, they notify me right away and let me know, oh, we have a new inventory. Tall pants. This is for you.” (B, 02:35)
• Worst Experience: Cable Company
  • Long wait times, repetitive explanations, agents lacking personal context.
    • “They didn’t know me. They definitely didn’t know my love of Bravo. And I just had a terrible experience.” (B, 03:21)
  • Led to cancellation despite the family’s love of TV.
• Jon’s Example:
  • Cycling brand voucher debacle—slow, unempathetic responses, resulting in frustration and only partial “make-good.”
  • Contrasted with exemplary service from Virgin for a missed flight, turning a crisis into a story of loyalty through flexibility and personal attention.
    • “They routed him to New York, got an internal flight to Miami... entirely on their expense.” (A, 06:54)

The Psychology of Experience: Exceeding & Managing Expectations

• Beyond the Product:
  • Emotional resonance and surprise matter more than functional details.
    • “They're not going to remember what you said… but they're going to remember how they felt about when you were with them.” (B, 08:17)
  • The critical role of expectation-setting and delivering “surprise and delight.”

Blending Marketing and Customer Success

• Trends in CMO Roles:
  • Increasingly, marketing leaders own both marketing and customer support, merging the full customer lifecycle under a single vision.
    • “We're seeing more and more of this traditional CMO who's owning both marketing and the support. And so it's coming into one owner.” (B, 11:12)
• Lessons from Salesforce:
  • Jamie’s tenure at Salesforce included a pivot into Customer Success, which revealed the overlap between pre- and post-sales marketing tactics.
  • Direct customer proximity grows empathy and business impact—and enables post-purchase marketing and upsell opportunities.
    • “That was a huge unlock—when you actually understand the customer across that entire journey, you can do way better marketing pre-sale.” (B, 09:15)

Iconic B2B Customer Experience: Dreamforce

• Event as Experience:
  • Dreamforce exemplified how a brand can build enduring loyalty and raise the bar for B2B—immersive community, memorable moments, surprise and delight.
  • Resource intensity and presenter development (“boot camp”) helped create a remarkable emotional connection.

Presentation & Storytelling: The Marketer’s Toolkit

• Tips from the Pros:
  • Practice relentlessly, never use notes, start strong, and know your audience.
    • “The most important thing you do is how you start… I always come out with a strong line and try and capture the audience from the moment that you start.” (B, 15:44)
  • Use music and emotional cues to energize yourself and the room.
    • “I always try and come out to my favorite soundtrack… for me, it’s Sex Pistols, God Save the Queen.” (A, 15:52)
  • Engage with individuals in the audience to generate feedback loops.
  • Pause intentionally to let key points sink in:
    • “Pick two pauses and make them uncomfortably long. Because then people will lean in, they'll listen.” (B, 17:29)
  • Keep slides minimal: “Slides are wallpaper… people should look at you, not your slides.” (A, 19:55)
  • Thank the behind-the-scenes team—buys time and creates goodwill.

Klaviyo’s Category Positioning & Moat

• Repositioning Beyond Email:

  • Klaviyo’s journey from being pigeonholed in email into a broader, category-adjacent B2C CRM.
    • “We realized, oh, there's a category here… it's actually built specifically for B2C companies.” (B, 24:37)

• B2B vs. B2C CRM:

  • B2B CRM revolves around humans and pipeline; B2C CRM prioritizes scale, omnichannel personalization, and instant conversion.
    • “You have to have a solid data platform and then you have to have the ability to interact… email, SMS, omnichannel.” (B, 25:50)

• Klaviyo’s “Moat”: The Data Platform

  • Deep data capture and enablement, designed for B2C:
    • “At the heart… we're a database. It’s not very sexy, but the ability to capture the data easily for customers and then allow them to use it, that's what we do really well.” (B, 29:34)
  • Blending marketing and support so brands become seamless to customers.

AI, Agents, and the Future of Customer Experience

• San Francisco: AI Epicenter

  • “Every single billboard was agentic… It’s insane.” (A, 30:33)

• AI’s Double-Edged Potential:

  • AI will make experience much better if applied thoughtfully, especially for personalization.
    • “I think it's going to make it way better. But you got to be smart about it.” (B, 32:21)
  • Risk of “sea of sameness” in AI messaging—marketers must focus on differentiation.

• Klaviyo’s Approach: Agents as Minions

  • Composer Agent: Empowers marketers as orchestrators, automating copy, imagery, analytics, and campaign execution.
  • Customer Agent: Delivers deeply personalized, contextual commerce experiences.
  • Making AI approachable by shifting the metaphor to “minions” for task-based agents (via Colin Fleming’s analogy).

• Impact on Teams & Skills:

  • “We're hiring people who can orchestrate… not necessarily hard-coding, but managing a system and the input/output.” (B, 35:53)
  • The emergence of roles like “marketing engineer”—not coders, but orchestrators of workflows, prompts, and automation.

• AI Efficiency vs. Effectiveness:

  • True value comes from freeing up human focus for the unique and impactful: “It’s not just about taking 20% out… it’s how do we become more effective?” (A, 35:19)

Events and Human Connection in an Automated World

• The Irreplaceability of In-Person:
  • While mass automation transforms back-end marketing, the value of face-to-face experiences rises as a premium.
    • “It doesn't have to be one at the expense of the other. We can do both, right?” (A, 39:15)
  • Klaviyo’s world tour events (e.g., K Sydney, K London) underscore the continued importance and energy of live customer engagement.

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Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• On Compassion and CX

  • “It gave me a deep understanding of being compassionate and really understanding my customer and being there to support them in different times in their life.” (B, 01:41)

• On Differentiation in Experiences

  • “They're not going to remember what you said... they're going to remember how they felt.” (B, 08:17)

• On Practice

  • “Some people think, oh, you’re just a great presenter. It's like, oh, no, I practiced in my room in the mirror a hundred times before I got up here.” (B, 14:54)

• On Slides

  • “I consider the slides to be wallpaper, pretty much… If you reveal everything you're going to say in your slide, you might as well just be reading the slides.” (A, 19:54)

• On Customer Journey Ownership

  • “We're seeing more and more of this traditional CMO who's owning both marketing and the support.” (B, 11:12)

• On Building a Category

  • “We realized, oh, there's a category here… built specifically for B2C companies.” (B, 24:37)

• On AI Metaphors

  • “Agentic just sounds a little bit like the FBI have turned up… just imagine having your own minions.” (A, 33:45)

• Career-Defining Advice

  • “Better, better, never best.” (B, 41:02)

• On Feedback

  • “Be tough in victory and be gentle in defeat.” (A, 43:40)

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Important Timestamps

• [01:04] — Jamie’s mortuary job and lessons for life and customer empathy
• [02:35] — Jamie’s best and worst CX (Aloe Yoga vs. cable company)
• [06:54] — Jon’s Virgin Airlines missed-flight case study
• [08:17] — The emotional core of experience; expectation vs. reality
• [09:11] — Transition from marketing to customer success; owning the post-sale journey
• [13:10] — Dreamforce as B2B experiential marketing
• [14:47] — Presentation and storytelling masterclass (practical tips)
• [24:37] — Klaviyo’s move from “email” to B2C CRM
• [29:34] — Klaviyo’s data platform “moat”
• [32:21] — AI in CX; risks, opportunities, and differentiation
• [35:53] — Skill shifts: orchestrators, marketing engineers, workflow managers
• [39:13] — The future of human connection and events
• [41:02] — “Better, better, never best”: formative advice

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Final Takeaways

• Excellent customer experience is the ultimate loyalty driver—emotional resonance outruns utility every time.
• Marketing and customer support are blending; modern CMOs need to own the entire journey.
• AI will fundamentally change marketing organizations, pushing teams toward orchestration, brand-building, and human connection, while automating repetitive tasks.
• Storytelling, surprise, empathy, and live experiences remain irreplaceable—even as automation and data platforms grow central.
• Continuous improvement (“Better, better, never best”) and openness to feedback are essential for growth at every level.

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For more insights from the episode—including the full lineup of speakers and upcoming world tour events—visit Klaviyo’s and Uncensored CMO’s official pages.

Transcript

[A]

Ladies and gentlemen, welcome back to Uncensored cmo. Now, one topic I am very passionate about is customer experience. It is something we do not talk enough about and we really need to. So in this episode, I'm joined by someone that really knows all about how to create a good customer experience. Jamie Dominici, the CMO of Klaviyo. Now, they provide fantastic customer relationship marketing platform for retailers and they're helping lots of businesses make sure that their customer experience is on point. So in this episode, we're talking all about how to do that and why it matters. Here we go. Ladies and gentlemen, welcome back to Uncensored cmo. And I'm joined by the incredible Jamie Donamici. Welcome to Uncensored.

[B]

Thank you. Thanks for having me.

[A]

It's great to have you. This is good fun. So you come from San Francisco, I come from London. And here we are in Sydney.

[B]

I mean, where else would we meet?

[A]

Exactly.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

It took a flight to Sydney for our agendas to cross over. Now let's go back to the beginning because I think you've got one of the most unusual first jobs I've ever come across.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Tell me where your career started.

[B]

This always comes up. Yeah, it was a strange first job. My first job, I was a mortician or I worked at a mortuary, I should say. Yeah. So I was a teenager in high school who drove a hearse. Very odd.

[A]

Do you actually drive a hearse?

[B]

I did, yeah. I did, yeah. You would see me on the freeway. But there's a reason I wasn't just, like, applying to be a mortician. It is my family's, so our family was four generations in Burlingame of running funerals. Wow.

[A]

So what kind of preparation for life does that give you? I'm just intrigued to know.

[B]

Well, one, it's a great story, so it's interesting. But all jokes aside, it's a really hard job. You really are with people when they're in their most sad moments. So I feel like it gave me a deep understanding of being compassionate and really understanding my customer and being there to support them in different times in their life. Also, it made me realize I did not want to go into that field. So here we are. I'm in tech, like, complete change. But it was a good starting point, right, of understanding your customer and being supportive of people.

[A]

Well, I mean, you're in the business of customer service now, aren't you? And delivering great customer experiences. And I guess you started out in probably the hardest ever position to be in where you're dealing with people going through trauma. So, yeah, it must have put you in good stead for what you do now.

[B]

Yeah, tough job to start in for. Sure.

[A]

Now, talking great customer experiences, I thought I'd ask you for your best and worst experience of great customer service.

[B]

Okay, let's start with a positive experience. So one of the brands I love interacting with is Aloe Yoga. One great product. They have great drops, great advertising. But what I love most about them is they have a lot of tall, long pants. I'm 6ft tall, so I'm a tall lady and they have tall pants. And what I love about them is they know. They know that about me. So anytime that they have a drop or they have a sale, they notify me right away and let me know, oh, we have a new inventory. Tall pants. This is for you. So I think they know you. They have a great experience. And because of that, I have probably 64 pairs of really tall aloe yoga pants, every color. So that's a great brand negative experience. Oh, man. I've been having some trouble with my cable company.

[A]

Have you?

[B]

Yeah, you know, which is unfortunate because I really like tv. I watch a lot of tv. I'm a big Bravo fan. A big house vibes fan tv. Do you have the Housewives?

[A]

I know. I know what they. Apparently, something I learned as well talking to NBC is you even have BravoCon, don't you?

[B]

I've been to it.

[A]

Have you been to BravoCon?

[B]

Not only have I been to BravoCon, I went with two other CMOs. No, three CMOs at BravoCon. It was an incredible experience. Yes. Could talk about that, the whole podcast, but it's very fun. Very deep into reality tv. But back to cable, I haven't. I had a problem with my bill and I called and tried to get ahold of someone. No one answered. I was talking to an agent. They didn't know me. They definitely didn't know my love, love of Bravo. And I just had a terrible experience. I finally got through to someone. I was on the phone for two hours. You know, I couldn't change my bill and it just ruined everything to the point I had to cancel my cable. So, my children, no tv. It's sad. We're going to figure it out, but it was a terrible customer experience.

[A]

But this is the thing, isn't it? Because, like, brands you really care about, you then feel more annoyed about when you get let down. I mean, I had one of my favorite cycling brands, right, That I think they'd make amazing cycling clothing.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

I got sent a voucher at Christma. I thought, oh, I'm going to spend a bit more than I usually would because I've got a voucher that's going to cover some of the costs. So I went for a really expensive item and then the voucher code didn't work and I'm like, that's a bit weird. So I tried and tried and tried. So. So I emailed them, oh, my voucher code's not working. They sent me the instructions and I said, no, that's exactly what I did.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

And then. So what I did is I then filmed me doing it and said, look, here you go, I've just followed the instructions. Doesn't work. And then they said I'd got it wrong and that I should follow the instructions. And so, like three times. And they took about five days each time to get back to me. So the course of three weeks. Yeah, this kept coming back telling me I was wrong and I was like. So I had to write back and go, you tell me what I should do in this situation. I've tried three times. I've sent you the video, I've sent you the evidence, now what happens? And then the third time, the customer service person comes back, goes, oh, sorry, we've just changed our IT systems over and the voucher code is not working. I was just like, oh, you're kidding.

[B]

So what'd you do? Did you keep it?

[A]

Well, in the end I was so far in, I felt like I've put so much effort in want to get it now. And then they sent me like 50 pound voucher as a kind of compensation at the end. Now it's a 300 pound item of clothing. So it was a percentage of the overall thing. It's not that big a discount. I would, I would have given it to me for free.

[B]

I, I agree because, like, I also appreciate that you kept it. I think I would have got so mad. I might have.

[A]

I was on the edge. I was on the edge, but I'd got so sort of emotionally attached. This item, I was thinking, I. Having gone through the pain, I really want this item.

[B]

Yeah, okay. That's dedication. I like that.

[A]

I'll tell a good story of actually a really good one. So producer James and I fly around recording this podcast and for the first time in his life, I mean, he actually missed a flight. Now, I will say it was not his fault. Anyone out there, you know what happened? He got stuck in, stuck in traffic on the M25. And M25 is like the busiest kind of road in the UK. And I was at the Virgin kind of check in, going, right, what's the latest he can check in? And they gave him an extra 10 minutes because we're Gold Car customers. Yeah. And then I talked to the security and I'd warn them that he's going to come in and we'll fast track him through security straight to the plane. I was actually sat on the plane and. And they knew about it. So the head crew came up and said, oh, you're, you know Mr. McKinnon's kind of colleague, are you? Have you any update on him? Because we're kind of holding the play ready for him to get there sort of thing. They've done the whole thing now. He. Then he was 10 minutes late. Right. So he actually missed it. But this is the brilliant bit. They. There was no more flights to Miami that day, so they routed him to New York. They got an internal flight from New York to Miami, so they got him there for the morning entirely on their expense.

[B]

Wow. Yeah, that's good.

[A]

They didn't have to. Right. They could have. They could have gone, you missed it. Your fault. You know, you're going to be paying for a new ticket. But they sorted it all out.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

And it took a really stressful moment. You know, it's like when you. I think I've only missed a plane once. I mean, we all sort of miss a plane once in our life, I think.

[B]

But it's one.

[A]

It's horrible feeling, isn't it? It's stressful. And I mean, with podcasts, we've got guests turning up the next day, we've got studios booked, and it's a very stressful situation. So helping people out in their moment of need, I think is so powerful, isn't it?

[B]

Yeah, I think so. And I think things like, if you travel a lot, airplanes. I'm a loyalist to both my airline and my hotels, and because of that, I feel I have different treatment. And it's like I'm very loyal about it. And I think good experiences are going to make or break that totally.

[A]

And you remember them forever, don't you? And you then tell other people about it. It becomes absolutely key. I came across this theory the other day that I know we're chatting yesterday at KCID about this, because it turns out that the sort of dopamine hit you get from good and bad experiences isn't the experience itself. It's relative to your expectation of the experience. And it's really kind of. I found it really Fascinating insight that, you know, as marketers we build up this expectation, don't we, of what people experience. But whether you can over deliver on that expectation or under deliver is everything.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

In terms of how you know then the surprise you feel and how you kind of create the emotion in the audience.

[B]

Well, and I think, well, I know we talked about it yesterday, but I love the ability to surprise and delay. I think that's what marketing is, honestly, marketing and customer service. But those things are blending because they're all about how you make your customer feel. That's what they're going to remember. They're not going to remember what you said, they're not going to remember every detail of the demo that you showed, but they're going to remember how they felt about when you were with them, how you interacted with them and the experience that they had. And I think that's what differentiates the sale, how you win the deal, how you lose the deal, how you keep the customer 100%.

[A]

Yeah. Now, one thing that really strikes me about roles you've had in the past is most marketers are in the demand generation side of the equation, aren't they? If I did some research recently that showed 90% of CMOs only manage the promotion P, they don't manage the other P's. And I know at Salesforce you went into customer success, didn't you? So having done products and demand generation, you went into customer success. What did that teach you when you suddenly had the responsibility for the whole customer journey? Not just the first bit.

[B]

Well, first of all, I probably should explain what was I doing in customer success? Because whenever someone sees, they're like, wait, what?

[A]

What is that?

[B]

How did you get there? But I was at Salesforce for a decade and so in the first seven years I had done every job in marketing, which I always say to anybody who wants to go into marketing, how do you get there? How do you get to your job? I say you do everything. Demand gen, operations analyst, product marketing. I'd done it all. And then after seven years, I was like, okay, what's next? And the head of customer success said, come over here and run adoption at scale. That's kind of weird. But then eventually I went over and I realized, oh, pre sales marketing is exactly the same as post sales. But you're not selling a product, you're building onboarding a customer. They're getting them to use your product. And I'm using the same things. I'm thinking about emails, I'm thinking about nurture tracks. I'M thinking about groups bringing people together. So it's so interesting. It was like, oh, all the principles of marketing apply on both sides, which was great. So I got to build something new. And the second thing I realized is this is what's making me a much better marketer. I was so close to the customer, I understood their pain points. I had so much more empathy, but also such a deeper appreciation for their entire experience that I could bring that back in to the marketing itself. So now I think, oh, that's like a huge unlock when you actually understand the customer across that entire journey, you can do way better marketing pre sale, which is good. And then two, like, selfishly, I'm also a marketer who likes to make money. And there's a lot of information and a lot of data and a lot of inputs that happen after the customer buys that. If you tap marketing in, you could also use that as an upsell moment. So it was a great part of my career that made me a better marketer. Really help me get closer to the customer.

[A]

I think. I think every marketer could learn from that. I mean, that's so say I love the point that it keeps you close to your customer and experiencing your product as well. So we sell the dream on the one side, and then as marketers, we kind of hand it off to someone completely different to then deliver the dream and point.

[B]

Yeah, well, actually, I think it's a trend we're seeing. In my current role, I have the ability to market to B2C companies, so I work with marketers. And what I'm seeing is a trend, actually. I'm seeing more and more of this traditional CMO who's owning both marketing and the support. And so it's coming into one owner, typically like head of CRM, head of digital. But I see that becoming more and more of a trend because the reality is you have to understand the entire lifecycle to really understand your customer.

[A]

Yeah, I'm seeing the same, actually. I mean, I know in the panel yesterday, we have Mim, you know, from Suncorp. That's exactly what she does in insurance, is managing not just the promise, but also delivery of it. And that makes you such a better marketer. Yeah, yeah. Now you're at 10 years at Salesforce. Salesforce is one of the kind of like, you know, success stories of the last kind of few decades.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

What did you learn there about, you know, how they managed to grow, the speed they. They scaled up?

[B]

Oh, my gosh. I learned a lot. It was like a PhD, you know, at work. And when I started it was 2010, so it was one product sales cloud. They sold a really great product. We were moving up market. So when I left, we had 10 products. We'd gone international. So I learned a lot about what to do and what not to do. But I think one of the most important things, not to be cliche, is really about how you focus on the customer and you really. Like, they did a great job of bringing that into everything that they did. If I go into like, what did I learn in marketing? I learned a very important thing. Salesforce was brilliant at launching and Marc Benioff in particular, he was so strong at launching things before, maybe before they were ready. Right. A little bit early. But what I learned was when you think about bringing a product to market, you have to really get the market ready. So we would tell the market about it, we would enable the field and then we would release the product. And by the time the product was released, everybody was ready. You were comfortable selling, you wanted that product. So it created this demand, which is something I've brought kind of with me on my career.

[A]

Now another thing, of course, they're very famous for is Dreamforce.

[B]

Oh yeah.

[A]

Which is an incredible event. You know, like, why was that so pivotal to the growth of business?

[B]

I have to tell you, putting on Dreamforce, being a marketer at Salesforce and bringing Dreamforce to life was really hard and it was insane. It was really hard. That's the conference. When it's over, you go home and you're like, I need to sleep for three days. But I think that what was so one, it's still, it's one of the best tech conferences in the world because it is fun. Like, you go there and you see things that you've never seen. One year back in 2012, we launched a new product. And I remember I purchased the world's largest screen, like a million dollar screen and covered like Moscone so you could see our new analytics product. And these are just things you don't like, you don't get to do everywhere and companies everywhere don't invest in at the same level. So I think it did a great job of building community, surprising and delighting the customers. They really set the bar high for what it's like to build an incredible customer experience.

[A]

I think it's a really good example of great B2B marketing because one of the things I've learned doing what I've done recently is create as much value as you possibly can for your customer. And they put on an incredible show. You just can't get that anywhere else. And the kind of speakers you got are just next level, you know, former presidents, all sorts, you know, you've had on stage.

[B]

Oh, it's hard. And I did a lot of those presentations. I'll have to tell you also, that's like boot camp. Like to learn how to present in a high stakes environment, you had to be interesting. If you weren't, you weren't getting in that slot. So it also created. I learned a lot about public speaking from working there too.

[A]

So hit me with your top tips then. What's the key to a great presentation?

[B]

I'll tell you mine, you tell me yours.

[A]

Okay.

[B]

One, practice. I know it's so silly, but some people think, oh, you're just a great presenter. It's like, oh, no, I practiced in my room in the mirror a hundred times before I got up here. Two, I never use notes. You have to really learn. And people who know me, I never say the same thing twice. So sometimes when I come on say, wow, I didn't know you were gonna say that. Me neither. But because you just know your content so well, I usually tell people to go early and why you can actually meet the people in the stands. And when you know the people in the room, it kind of changes your dynamic a bit. And I think the most important thing, and I learned this from a great speech coach. His name was Danny Slomoff. The most important thing you do is how you start. So I never come on and say, hi, I'm Jamie from, you know, Klaviyo. I'm the cmo. You'll never hear me say that. I always come out with a strong line and try and capture the audience from the moment that you start.

[A]

That's amazing advice.

[B]

What are yours?

[A]

Well, I love your starting strong because I always try and come out to my favorite soundtrack.

[B]

Oh.

[A]

So. So for me, it's Sex Pistols, God Save the Queen, which is the theme tune to the podcast.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Because I now associate that with a great experience and high energy. So, yeah, I like that because I come on feeling great.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Somehow I'm relaxed. There's no nerves. And I, I just, it just lifts me, you know, another kind of 20, 30%. So I think that'd be my first thing.

[B]

Do you ever change your song or do you always use the same?

[A]

Always same one.

[B]

Okay.

[A]

Because in my mind it's a. Well, my second favorite soundtrack, this is quite funny, is AC DC Thunderstruck.

[B]

Okay. Well, that's my one.

[A]

There you go. There you go, that's mine. That's my kind of in the car, need some energy. About to go and do an important meeting. Yeah. Thunderstruck is like the perfect one. So they're my two. Right. So that would be tip number one. The next thing I do is exactly the same as you. Never, ever use notes. Because all you're doing is thinking about what you should have said, and you've missed that. You've missed a sentence or you've forgotten to say something, and so your mind goes into panic rather than relaxing and just engaging the audience. So again, never use notes. Next thing I do is I address one person in the room. I look for the most smiley face. This happened yesterday, by the way, at your conference. I just spotted someone in the front row that was beaming, and suddenly I felt good. I'm like, oh, someone's paying attention. So I kind of find a couple of reference points in the audience that are smiling at me, and I take my energy from them because they'll be reacting to what I say, and I use them as kind of. I imagine I'm talking to one person.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Kind of thing.

[B]

It's nice.

[A]

It's great, isn't it?

[B]

Yeah, it changes. It changes. Changing the way you interact with the crowd matters.

[A]

And then the other thing I've learned to do is to talk in statements and to talk at about two thirds of the normal pace.

[B]

Oh, yeah.

[A]

And not to fear a pause.

[B]

Oh, I think you have to pause. You got to pick your pause, I like to say. And I always try and train my team when they're going to present, pick two pauses and make them uncomfortably long. Because then people will lean in, they'll listen.

[A]

That's what no one realizes. Right. Because when you pause, people are actually absorbing what you've just said. Because if you talk it constantly, no one's capturing anything.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

You pause and ask a question like, I know I asked question the other day. What would you do if you weren't afraid and you need the pause because everyone's going to go, oh, that's a good question. Oh, wow. And then suddenly that sinks in, doesn't it? See, you need to allow that kind of opportunity to sink in. Something else I've done as well is I think it's always good to thank the people that put on the show. And so I started doing this about three years ago where I'd go. I'd go on stage and. Because backstage there are so many people helping you. You know what I mean?

[B]

I put on events. Yeah.

[A]

Now I've put on my own event for the first time as well. I now see the amount of work that goes into it and those people don't always get recognition. So I tend to go, I just want to thank everybody behind the scenes and let's give them a round of applause. And then not only is that nice, but it also buys me some time because in that little moment of applause, I'm thinking about what's the big statement I can drop next? Or like you say, what's the kind of hard hitting thing that I can do? So little moments that buy you the little time to think about who you're talking to and to set up the next thing.

[B]

You know what? Well, one, I love that I'm going to steal that. But two, I sell software for a living. And I remember my current CEO, Andrew Bielecki. He came to kickoff and he walked in and he's more of a founder, he's more on the product side. And he's like, I don't know this hype. How do people get so excited about selling software? What are you talking about? I don't get it. I was like, okay, I'm gonna go present and I'll come right back. And I went and presented. We repositioned our company. It was a big moment and storytelled and gave everything I got. And people were clapping and excited. And I came back and I'm like, no, people love this. They do. You just have to relate to them and, and people can get really excited about it. If you're passionate and that comes across when you present.

[A]

And if their job depends on, you know, using that software to make them better at their jobs, of course they're going to care. You know, if you're giving them something, you're giving them a tool that's going to make them better.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

The other, the other tops I've often give people is you've just touched on it about storytelling is the audience should be looking at you, not your slides. I think the slides are for me, I consider the slides to be wallpaper, pretty much that they're the backdrop to a conversation you're having with me. Because if you put, if you reveal everything you're to say in your slide, which so many people do, literally all their points and they read through them, you might as well just be reading the slides.

[B]

I call those slides wall of texts. And I do not allow them in our presentations. And you'll see me usually the night before being like, take the words out, take the words out. Less is more. So I Completely agree with you.

[A]

Well, it goes back to what we started talking about. Like, people won't remember what you said. They won't remember what you did. They'll always remember how you made them feel. That quote isn't it. And that's what we got to think about. Think about, what emotion do I want to leave in the room and how can I do it? Another thing, actually, your team did this brilliantly yesterday, is I'm going to steal this as well, by the way.

[B]

We're just, like, stealing each other.

[A]

Yeah, I know. This is amazing. So I was trying to land the point about surprise. And so you had left, like, prizes under chairs, like, stuck to the bottom side of the chair. And you allowed me to use it in my talk, which I thought was very kind of you. So we got to the point where I was explaining the power of surprise, and I said to them, under your chair, some of you will find a free gift, you know, and then you look at the reaction of those, oh, I've just got a $500 voucher. And they're just seeing the excitement in the room and the element of surprise. Doing something unexpected in a presentation is just guaranteed to land.

[B]

Yeah. People love. People love free stuff.

[A]

Well, that's true.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

And merchandise. I didn't realize it's merchandise.

[B]

The other thing that I love that we do, we have so many great customers that are selling great products. So whatever event we have, we only always give away our customers merchandise, which is great. It's. Our customers are benefiting. We're promoting our customers. And it's kind of a nice.

[A]

That explains the quality of your merch game. Yesterday I noticed some amazing kind of baseball caps and socks and T shirts, hydro flask.

[B]

We've got a lot of great customers, a lot of great products, so it's nice to showcase them, and we can kind of bring that into our experience. Experience, yeah.

[A]

Now, going from one extreme in terms of, like, you know, free stuff, you joined Klaviyo at a very, very interesting time, just before an ipo, didn't you?

[B]

Oh, yeah.

[A]

So how was that experience, and what was your role in the ipo?

[B]

Well, yeah, I joined, and I was. This is fun. I was trying to take some time off. I had this whole thing. I had a hashtag SummerOfJamie, and I had, like, a whole Instagram thing, and I had this whole plan. It was amazing. And I went on my first trip. I remember I was in Santa Barbara. I was on the beach having a margarita, and Klaviyo called, and they're like, we really want you to come. And I was like, no, I'm taking this time off. Well, just meet us fast forward. They're like, we need you to start now. So summer of Jamie was out. That hashtag never had the fun that it was supposed to. And the reason I had to join immediately, because we were going to ipo. So the role of the CMO is pretty important. You're helping write the 10k, you're helping how you're positioning it in the market. But there's this other side of it that CMOs have to think about, which is like the video that they use. How are you going to show up at the stock exchange? What are you going to do on that day? So this was, let me be honest, I had to join and I had 30 days to figure it out. Now, like, hey, we don't know what we're going to put on the stock exchange itself. Like, what should it say? If you ever look, you probably don't notice that, but I was like, oh, you guys don't know? Like, no, no, that's why you're here. I'm like, okay. So. So we moved fast and we took over the whole city of New York because this is like the biggest moment in your company's historic. Your company's career. So this, every eyeball is going to be on you. So we moved fast. We had media, we took over New York. And then at the end of the night, this is another really fun thing about ipo. You have an incredible party.

[A]

Yes.

[B]

And then the entire company came together in Boston and celebrated. And it was an incredible day.

[A]

That's amazing. Do you do the ring the bell thing? That's the thing, isn't it, where the whole team got there. Ring the bell and you see the.

[B]

Get a chance to do this, you have to do that. There's a whole day. You go behind the scenes, There's a pump you up video. And what's really cool is you get to bring your team with you. So there's people who get to go inside, there's people outside. There's a whole thing. I got to stand on the balcony, ring the bell. You ring the bell? Yeah. Yeah.

[A]

What an amazing. What an amazing start. 30 days into your career.

[B]

It was. It was a little stressful, I'm not gonna lie. But it was an incredible experience that it was. It was a once in a lifetime experience. I would like to do it again maybe one day, but was really grateful to be part of it. I probably would have liked more than 30 days to do it. But we did a great job.

[A]

Amazing. Now also when you started Klaviy also did some positioning work, didn't you on how Klaviyo's positioned market? What was that and what change did that create?

[B]

Yeah, in my career I've done some interesting things. Rebranded a company, repositioned a company and category creation. I always say when a CMO asks me like, would you do it again? I'm like oh, definitely not. If I could avoid it, no, it's really hard to do. But when I joined Klaviyo, people knew Klaviyo as email marketing. But actually it was so much more. And I went to go buy a billboard and it said Klaviyo. We do email, SMS analytics, cdp. It was like a ridiculous billboard. We got to better define who we are and what we do. So we went on the journey and we eventually realized, oh, there's a category here. We thought do we have to create the category or is it category adjacent? And we realized, oh, it's a CRM, customer relationship management. But this is different. It's actually built specifically for B2C companies, companies who are selling to consumers. That's what we do. And so we went on a journey to reposition and this like category adjacent defined because nobody else was really using that term or really established that end to end CRM experience. We launched it last year and we've been in market yeah for about a year and it's been great, it's been great.

[A]

And how does, how does B2C differ from B2B when it comes to CRM?

[B]

Oh, great, great question. I think the main difference, there's two big differences. One, let's start with the similarities. CRM is customer relationship management. So you track all of your customers interactions. That's standard across both. A traditional CRM is more sales marketing Service. Well, in B2C companies there's no sales team typically, right? You're really the marketer, you do it all. In many cases you're finding the customers, selling the customers and getting them to buy from you. So you're sales and marketing like you do it all. So in a CRM built for B2C it's all about scale. You're capturing every single interaction of customers. So you have to have a solid data platform and then you have to have the ability to interact with them, which is email, SMS, you know, this omnichannel experience. And so B2C is really about capturing customers information, helping you send real time communications, that personalization and connecting to your customers. On a journey. So there's some differences. Whereas B2B, you have an opportunity, you have a salesperson, there's a lead that flows through, there's a. There's a much more human in the loop interaction.

[A]

I get that. It makes a lot of sense because you're right. Because it's people talking to people, aren't they?

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

There's somebody who's going to help the pipeline. It's like a pipeline, isn't it? From sort of interest through to actual conversion. Whereas you're dealing with people that are making purchase decisions straight away.

[B]

Yes. Like back to those yoga pants. They are. They sent me an email or. And then later they'll send me a text and I'll click on one of those and instantly buy. So it's a totally different game for B2C companies and usually you're dealing with tons and millions and millions of rows of data. We like to say at Klaviyo we capture a lifetime of customer information. We know your customer's whole life. Which kind of sounds creepy, maybe I'll work on that. But I think that's what B2C CRMs do really, really well. They help you. And in this world of AI, it's getting even more exciting. Personalization on a whole nother level. There's a lot of exciting stuff coming now.

[A]

Salesforce is probably the ultimate enterprise bit of software, isn't it? Right. Oh, Salesforce is amazing. You know, you're dealing with I think over 200,000.

[B]

Yeah, we have 200,000 customers. And I would say Klaviyo started. They were built for creators, so they really started in the small businesses, those entrepreneurs. And over the last. We've been in business for 14 years and so we've really grown up into the enterprise. But I think what we do really well is build for those B2C companies where I think some of the other CRMs are building for more B2B companies and more company agnostic. So that's been in our DNA since day one, which has made it really exciting. And now we sell customer support. But I think what's different is we are kind of blending the role of marketing and support, which we talked about earlier, which is my job, so I'm incredibly passionate about it. But we're now, we're bringing those two worlds together because we see more and more that those interactions are the customer just wants to interact with your company and they don't want to feel a divide in your company. So we've brought that all together.

[A]

That's super. Powerful. So having been clear on your positioning, how are you building the Klaviyo moat, as it were, to kind of give yourself competitive advantage versus your competitors?

[B]

That's a really good question. This is a million dollar question. This is also. I was a product marketer for many, many years, so I spent a lot of time on this. But it comes down to the data and how we collect information and empower you to use it. Fun fact. Klaviyo was started by our two founders. They were at Harvard, some really smart guys, and they built a database. But they're like, who wants a database? And their first customer was in retail. It was their friend. And he's like, you know what? I could use this to market to my customers. So we became this marketing automation tool and a CRM, but really we're a database at the heart. I know you're like, that's not very sexy. It's very sexy if you do what I do. So the ability to capture the data easily for customers and then allow them to use it, that's what we do really, really well.

[A]

I mean, presumably as well, given you talk about millions of data points, you must know your customers better than anyone else.

[B]

Yes.

[A]

And that's the power, isn't it? You give your customers the ability to be very close to their customers, 100%.

[B]

And what's scary, it's a scary and exciting time right now, but we're hearing from a lot of customers. It's just changing now with agentic commerce. And you can buy an LLM, an agent can shop on your behalf. These are things that did not exist six months ago. So what we're also doing at Klaviyo is allowing you to capture every single data point. Whether somebody comes on your website, they buy in your store, they research on an LLM, you know, or. And you know, who knows what's next. We just create the ability to interact and capture all that information. So you don't have to worry about that, but you can continue to connect with your customers no matter where they are.

[A]

Now you live in San Francisco? Yes, I was in San Francisco earlier in the year recording some podcasts.

[B]

Yes.

[A]

And I took the 101 from the airport into town. Every single billboard was agenta kr.

[B]

Isn't it crazy?

[A]

It's like if you haven't been to San Francisco, you won't quite understand the amount of AI companies, the amount of AI communicate. I didn't know what like 90% of it was the amount of different agents doing this and that.

[B]

Everything's an agent.

[A]

It's insane. Yeah, it's insane. You find yourself in the epicenter of this kind of industrial revolution we're in. Given what you know about AI, where do you think it's going to have the biggest impact, particularly when it comes to delivering great experiences?

[B]

By the way, I always, I film, I have to drive that every day. I work in the city, so. And I live in Birling, So it's a 30 minute drive. I go through it every single day and I just take pictures of those billboards and I send it to my team.

[A]

Do you?

[B]

Yeah, because, well, one I'm not. There's lots of great billboards and lots of great companies. So if you, if you're one of those folks, I love them. However, it's becoming a little bit of a sea of sameness right now. So as a marketer, I'm always pushing my team. How do we differentiate? How do we stand out? How do we. We're also in the AI game. We have our agents, we have our data platform, we sell personalization. So AI is critical to what we do. But I don't want to just look like another billboard that blends in. So the CMO in me, like I will have a billboard, I'll send it to you, you tell me if it stands out. So that's a goal. But then to how is AI going to change customer experience? I think is a really good question. I think it's going to make it way better. But you got to be smart about it. We talked about some of those bad experiences in the beginning. That's because people are using agents wrong. They're not using, they're not training them, they're not finding their guardrails. So it could be a bad experience or it could be a really good experience. If we actually have personalization, you actually can do your job easier. Easier. You better understand your customer. I mean these are things that are going to be unblocked because of AI and it's going to change, you know, the customer experience, but it's going to change marketing end to end.

[A]

Yeah. Now yesterday you're revealing some of your own product news as well.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

How are you using AI in your own products?

[B]

So I think there's two sides of AI. There's the personalization layer, more machine learning that's helping you understand your customer. Like personalized send time. Do you like to get things via email or sms? Are you reading these in the morning? Are you reading them at night? So better understanding how your customers are acting like that's, that's exciting. But I think this next phase is really the agentic layer. How are you using agents on your behalf? And you and I both, we talk to CMOs all day. I think CMOs are excited and ready, but there's a lot of them, especially in our space, who do not know what to do. Do I build an agent? Do you build an agent? Do my agents work together? So at Klaviyo, we're like, all right, we know your customers, we know your data. We're going to build a backend agent for you, which is our composer agent. So we're going to make you the marketer, the composer and going to build all the sub agents for you. You know what is a sub agent? Well, you want to create an email, we'll have someone who creates email. You want to analyze your data, we'll have someone who's analyzing your data. You want to build an end to end campaign, we'll build it for you. Right, so that's like that back end agent. And then we also have a front end agent, which is customer agent. So when you go onto someone's website and you're maybe shopping around saying, hey, I like this jacket. Well, you want an agent who can talk back to you, who knows what your size is, what your preferences are, what colors you like, what have you bought before? So Klaviyo is doing both front end and back end.

[A]

I was chatting to one of your friends, Colin Fleming, actually about this last year ServiceNow. He's doing an amazing job actually of kind of explaining all this to people at scale. And we were just saying some of the language I think is like agentic just sounds a little bit like the FBI have turned up. You know what I mean? And he just said, imagine having your own minions and you've got a different minion for each task and the minions can go away and do things for. I'm like, that's amazing. That's how you should market it. Just make it fun.

[B]

Well, love Colin. We worked. We worked. We started. We started Salesforce together. Actually, we go way, way back. But I think that's really smart because I meet with a lot of CMOs, a lot of marketers who are don't know where to go and they're also a little bit scared. But I always tell them like, oh, no, this is great. This is all the work that we didn't want to do is now going to get done for us. And I think some people are afraid, like, well, how is that going to affect my job? I mean, I have A large marketing team. They're asking me like, what does this mean? Am I going to have a job? Are you going to automate me? Are you going to make me an agent? A minion? If you use Collins language. And the best thing I can say is it's going to change the way you work. You know, it's going to change our job job description, it's going to change the skills, but also it's going to give you the time that you want, that you need to focus on the things that you wish you could have focused on. For me, that's brand, that's the customer. Face to face interactions. Right. Like it's those experiences that differentiate you that in some ways AI is not going to be able to replace.

[A]

What I like about you said that is so many people are thinking about it as efficiency. Right. How can I take 20% of my workload resource out of the business by using AI? What you've there is about effectiveness. How do we become more effective? By focusing on the things that matter.

[B]

Yes.

[A]

By taking away, you know, automating the things that are more administrative.

[B]

Yeah. I did a demo of it because I'm like, do you want to build this email for yourself? You would usually build a brief. You go ask your creative team, make me an image. You'd write some copy, you'd rewrite some copy and then you'd have to build it all. Like why not just write a prompt saying build me a campaign and then you can say do I like it or not? Like that's. Why wouldn't you take that?

[A]

You mentioned skills there. So in terms of how it will change the marketing organization, but what skills will you be hiring for as we embrace AI?

[B]

Well, I just posted my first marketing engineer role which we defined ourselves, which is not somebody who is your traditional engineer, but somebody who can actually manage a workflow. I'll give you an example for content old days, content writers, well, they'd write, that's all they did. We had a whole content team. We didn't, we didn't redo. That team is still there. But we reskilled them where now they manage in a workflow end to end. So they have an idea for content. They put it through our content localization, SEO optimization, brand and tone and then it executes on their behalf. They say yes or no. That's really different. They're managing a system and they're still building the idea, they're still thinking about what we're going to write. They're still fine tuning it, but it's a different skill. So we've shifted that. And now instead of hiring more traditional builders of email, we're hiring people who can orchestrate. And, you know, they're minions. And that doesn't mean, like, they're hard coding. I think that's important. Actually. Everyone on my team does know how to build an agent. We all use cloud cowork, and that's a really important part of how we're skilling up our team. But I just think it's going to shift how you manage a system and how you have the input and the output, but you're not actually doing the build.

[A]

Got it. And maybe think about the CMO role, though. So what would make.

[B]

Oh, don't try and automate me. Are you trying to.

[A]

No, no, no, no, no. Don't worry. There's no CMO minions allowed in this. Honestly, on this podcast, you still need

[B]

me for a while.

[A]

What was it? Some people call it like orchestration, don't they? The idea that you're conducting everything that's going on. Someone needs to be a conductor. Right. You can't just let all the minions make their own noise. You got to try and make them work together. Right. So it's still a big role. Looking ahead, what will make the difference between a good CMO and a great cmo, do you think?

[B]

By the way, you know, the name of our agent is called Composer.

[A]

Composer.

[B]

They go actually, Composer, because we want you to compose your orchestra, which should be all of your agents, and you're making beautiful music for your.

[A]

And everyone can relate to that. Just suddenly sounds lovely, doesn't it? It sounds. Sounds like something you want to do.

[B]

Yeah. Yeah, right. Like there's. Yeah. So good marketing. But what do I think is going to make a great CMO? I think right now, great CMOs are going to be the ones that lead through this and lean into AI really rebuilding the marketing organization AI first and finding ways to make those pain points in your org easier so you can focus on what matters. So I think the CMOs of the future, I think brand's gonna be really important. That's something you're always gonna have to own. And then you're gonna need this technical side. How do you really orchestrate your new team to be the most efficient? And I think we'll still spend a lot of time face to face, building relationships with your customers. Like great events, great experiences that will never go away. So I think that where and how we spend our time will look a little different.

[A]

I heard James Quincy, who's just retired as CEO of Coke and he was asked what the big bets Coke are taking and he said, number one, we're doing mass experimentation on AI. We're learning, we're leaning into it. Just learning because we're not there yet but we're discovering. He said the second thing we're leaning into is real life experience. And he was like, there's a reaction to it. Every action has a reaction. And he thinks both things are going to be true. We'll automate loads of things and our desire to connect with humans in real life and create memorable experiences will get greater. Yeah, I think that's true. I mean, I'm seeing this, isn't it?

[B]

Yeah. It doesn't have to be one at

[A]

the expense of the other. We can do both, right?

[B]

Yeah. But I think that's a premium. Right. And we, you know, yesterday we've invested a lot in events and we've rebuilt, you know, our kind of world tour. So we're K Sydney, we're going to K London, K Boston, Singapore, we're going everywhere. And I love going to those events. Not because, I mean giving away the free stuff is cool, but it's really seeing our customers and prospects hang out and share best practices and say what's working and what's not and just bond beyond our company and beyond our product. And so if we have more time to do that in the future, I think that's a great outcome, 100%.

[A]

And if anyone's listening to this just after it's released, K London's happening next week.

[B]

Yeah. Oh, yeah, yeah.

[A]

So if you listen to this on the first couple of days of it going live, then go check it out. So it's a great, I have to say, based on K Sydney, it was amazing experience yesterday. The energy in the room, the level of production, the speakers, the guests, the panels, everything was such high energy speakers.

[B]

You were fantastic.

[A]

Thank you.

[B]

Yeah. But we bring in industry experts, we share best practices and we just really want to enjoy the time with our customers. So I think that that's what I hope people walk away from.

[A]

You can tell by the buzz in the crowd and the amount of people that are networking with each other, the amount of kind of connections going on and the buzz in, you know, in the hall, as you know, people kind of meet new people is amazing. So. Yeah. Facilitating lots of exciting things.

[B]

Yeah. And that's also like, there's a lot that's going to change with AI My job, I'm going to have marketing engineers, all this stuff. But that's actually kind of core to being a cmo is building that connection with your customer. So I don't, I don't think that goes away, which is a good thing, 100%.

[A]

Well, maybe to round us off then. What's the one bit of advice that you've had in your career that's made the most difference?

[B]

The piece of advice that I got, there's two men in my career who claimed they each coined this phrase. I don't know which one it was. They were both sales leaders at Salesforce, Tony Rodoni and Brian Milam. But they would always say, better, better, never best. So we would have a great quarter and they'd be like, that's great, but better, better, never best. How are we going to beat it next, next quarter, next month? I try and live by that and I try and help my team. That's the kind of what I've tried to instill in my team, that we're always reaching to, you know, do our best but then achieve even beyond that. And I think it's really helped, you know, helped in my career. My kids don't like it that much, but it's okay. I apply it at home too, and it keeps us.

[A]

Thank you later. They'll thank you later. Don't worry.

[B]

I don't know. I don't. They're not that fired up on it. Yeah, yeah. Okay, Mom. Better, better never best. Like, I'm fine, but no, keep going.

[A]

Yeah, I love that.

[B]

It keeps you going, keeps you pushing.

[A]

I do a co hosted podcast with Corey Marches at another San Franciscan. Well, they should New York and. But lives in San Francisco. And what I've noticed about her in the time we've worked together is we'll celebrate a success. But every time she's like, how can it be better? Yeah, like whether it's the chart position we're ranking in or whether, you know, we'll have a great podcast and at the end just go, how did I do? What can be better every single time?

[B]

Don't you love that? Like that hunger?

[A]

It's funny because my initial reaction was, oh, don't you think it's any good sort of thing. So initially that was my reaction, but I've got used to it now. I'm like, get. Bring it on. This is brilliant.

[B]

And it reframes the way you think because otherwise you're right. People could change your mindset. You're negative, you're being critical. But it's like, actually, no, this was amazing. How are we going to push ourselves to do it even better. And we just finished K Sydney. It was an awesome event, but the team. Team went home last night and they're like, here's 10 things we're going to do different.

[A]

100. You have to reframe it, in my experience, because I initially thought, oh, do you not think we did a good job then? Yeah, I reframed it to. You care so much that you want this to be even better than it is. And the other thing I learned as well, I met the England rugby coach after England had done a record number of wins, 15 wins in a row. And I said to the coach, what's the number one bit of advice you'd give? And he said, be tough in victory and be gentle in defeat. And I thought, wow. Because what he said is, when you've just won, you're open psychologically, you're open to hearing feedback. If you've just failed or done something badly, the worst thing you can do is tear someone down and tell them, how could it be better? Because they're feeling it. And he said, you know, you don't need to be told, but when you're great, you do something. Amazingly, you do need to be told because you're riding on a high and therefore, well, a, you can psychologically take it, but also, B, you're probably not seeing the things that didn't go well because you're. You're on this high. Of course. Me, great.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

And that's. I live by that now. So, you know, it's really counterintuitive, isn't it?

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Tough in victory.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

And be gentle in defeat.

[B]

Yeah, I agree. I agree. It's sound advice.

[A]

Amazing. Jamie, thank you so much. I've loved this conversation so much. So much inspiration from yesterday and meeting you and talking on the podcast. So thank you so much.

[B]

Thank you for having me. This was great.

[A]

So I hope you enjoy that episode of Uncensored CMO as much as I enjoyed making it. Now, by the way, I've got a new newsletter, so if you'd like to get my thoughts on the One Thing that I take out from each episode every week, then do subscribe to the One Thing newsletter. I'd really appreciate it. Also, I have another podcast just launched, Uncensored Renegades, with the fabulous Corey Marchisoto. She is one of the world's best CMOs. She's an absolute rock star. Every week we pick one topic, spend 20 minutes trying to fix it. So check out that it's in your feed. Uncensored Renegades. And finally I want to give a huge thank you to my sponsor, System One. They generously provide so much support for this podcast, it would not happen without them. So big thanks and lots of love to System One. I'll see you next time.