A (3:00)

because it's a very, very unusual combination. I mean, when you think about disruption, you tend to think about kind of breaking things, moving at speed, being aggressive, you know, undermining the competition. It's quite sort of aggressive and challenging. Cutthroat, difficult, you know, environment to be in. Kind isn't a word that I would kind of drop into that scenario. So I just wonder, how do you define kind in that, in that context of. Because kindness in the, you know, we're not talking about kind of being slow or like making everyone feel good, you know, but we actually. Cause, you know, you've had 25, 26 quarters now. 26, 26 quarters. Congratulations. And you're ringing the bell. Weren't you down, down at the stock exchange just last week? Weren't you celebrating your success? So it doesn't mean compromising and being nice to everyone, does it?

B (3:49)

So I love that you just brought up the word nice because I think this is actually a really important point of distinction. There is a very big difference between being nice and being kind. So when you think about being nice, very oftentimes that means leaving things out. People think that being nice is not telling somebody they have a stain on their shirt or broccoli in their teeth or, you know, a spinner. You know, you're being nice, you don't want to say anything. The kind thing to do is to tell somebody you have broccoli in your teeth. And even when you think this, you bring this into the business world. Being nice is actually having somebody who's not in the right role stay in that role, which is not good for them or good for the company. Being kind is letting them go. So this is a really important distinction. Kindness can't just be about a single gesture. It has to be a habit. It has to be a practice, a principle, something that people are engaging with on a regular basis. And when you think about what ELF does, everything that we're doing is purpose driven. And it comes from a place of trying to make the world a better place for every eye, lip and face. And that's where the kindness part is. What are the games that we need to change to make them more fair and equitable? Whether it's the boardroom or the playing fields or access to equity, that's kindness. Kindness is saying there is a game here that many people are being excluded from. What if we change the game to make it inclusive, accessible and positive for everyone?

A (5:28)

I love the way you frame that as competitive advantage because you understand and care about your customer more deeply than your competitors do and therefore unearth lots of insight. A book. I'm obsessed with the moment. I don't know if you've read it. Unreasonable Hospitality. Will Gadara, he and his, his partner created the world's number one Michelin starred restaurant. And what was fascinating about their story is, you know, they were trained chefs and you know, they kind of, you know, got an amazing training and they, I think they got to number 50. And will, as he tells a story, went along to the like the celebration, the top 50 restaurants in the world. And what he realized is he looked around and everyone was doing the same thing in terms of food and he, he worked out he could not beat them based on the food. So he said, I'm going to beat them based on the service. And what he decided to do was double down on understanding what every individual customer was there for. So, for example, loads of amazing stories in the book, but like there's a, there's a couple on that wedding anniversary and they've, they've, they've come to the restaurant and they suddenly remember they left the champagne in the freezer, they were going to chill it down. So he's like, hand me your keys and he sends someone round to take it out the freezer. But it didn't stop there. That's the obvious thing. You know, what he did is he bought a hamper round for the, you know, round to leave in their house to wish them a very happy anniversary. So when they woke up the next day, they had a breakfast already prepared for them. And, and the whole book is about going above and beyond really understanding and caring for your customer. And he, you know, they broke a lot of the rules of restaurant, you know, restaurateurring or whatever it's called, you know, in terms of all the way they dress and the way they serve and all the kind pomp and circumstance and really, really cared about the individual. I thought it's really because, you know, in that context, kindness actually is a kind of, you know, a way of delivering better customer service and understanding your customer.

B (7:14)

Yeah, for sure. And it takes courage to care, as my friend Billie Jean King says so eloquently, because you're setting yourself up when you actually care, you could be setting yourself up for letdown. So it really takes a lot of courage to put your heart in into the thing that you're doing. Right. Because now you're making it emotional, you're making it a personal connection with people and their stories and their experiences and their moments. So there is a bravery required in putting yourself out there, which by definition becomes an act of vulnerability. That gentleman who went to that person's house had to be thinking about, what are they gonna love? And he has to change the way he sees the world right now to put himself in the shoes of empathetically with what it is that would make these two individuals very happy in this moment. And you brought up competition before, which I think is really interesting, because the widely held belief is that we have to be at war with our competitors. And actually our kind heart takes us in the opposite direction. We actually force multiply with people in our orbit. And I don't see why more people can't do that. So, for example, there is a brand called Beekman 1802 that is actually selling kindness. And when you ask the founders about the business that they're in, they'll tell you, we're not selling products, we're selling kindness. And everything in their brand starts from the point of kindness. So much so that they actually created a kindness curriculum.

A (8:47)

Wow.

B (8:48)

So as a company that is a bold disruptor with a kind heart, I wanted to do my leadership off site. So I called them up. I called Josh and Brent. Those are the founders of Beekman 1802. And I said, I know you have a kindness curriculum. Kindness is a huge part of what we're doing, of who we are. I'd love to bring my team to your kindness curriculum. So here we are at the house of a quote, unquote competitor, learning from them how to exercise kindness, how to increase our kindness gestures. And what I found really fascinating is people think kindness is this soft skill. It's this. This idea of just using these heartful gestures. There's actually a science to kindness. And I'm actually gonna look at my notes because I could never say this without what came from Dr. Brent. And Dr. Brent said that more exposure to kindness creates epigenetic differences and inherent changes to our DNA. So, in fact, kindness changes you, and it changes you in meaningful ways. And the kindness has to start with you. So if you think about if I am kind to myself in the morning before I leave the house, if I pour kindness into myself, if I pour kindness into my space. Then when I get to the office or whatever environment that I'm in for the day, then I'm going to be able to also pour kindness into others. So that ripple effect then transpires. So if I'm kind to you, then now you're gonna be kind to others. And you can see how that ripples.

A (10:26)

The thought you just put in my head, actually, as you said, that was. When you give things away like that and you're kind to others, you do feel better yourself, don't you? There's something about that, you know, that actually it does change you. That brings a certain satisfaction, happiness and de. Stress and so on with it. So you probably live a better life yourself, even though you're kind of giving, you know, focusing on giving things away. There's probably some. Some truth to that, isn't there?

B (10:53)

Yeah. And the other thing that they taught us, which I thought was fascinating, is that there's one thing that is standing between people and acts of kindness. What do you think that one thing is?

A (11:05)

Being British? I would say probably.

B (11:08)

I hadn't noticed that.

A (11:09)

You weren't noticed of British. No one listing a. I would say embarrassment or something like that. Because I tell you, amount of times I've thought about doing something kind for someone else and I've not done it because I don't know how they're going to react. And I think, oh, this could be awkward. I was probably being very British. I'm sure in America they're much more likely to be kind. But I don't know. I just think it's that uncertainty of what response will I get?

B (11:35)

Fear of embarrassment makes sense. So we refrain from being kind to others because we're afraid of being embarrassed. What if the person doesn't respond well to that act of kindness? Or again, it's an act of vulnerability. So it means now we're open to judgment and fear of judgment and fear of embarrassment. So you have to put that aside to be able to act with a kind heart and just think to yourself, what is going to be the kind gesture to make in this moment that's gonna have a meaningful impact on the other person.

A (12:10)

I was interviewing Jon Amici on the podcast last week. He's got a new book out called It's Magic. The Ordinary Skills of Extraordinary Leaders. Beautifully written. Absolutely beautifully written. One of the chapters is on vulnerability, and it took me a while to learn this lesson, but actually vulnerability is a skill of a leader. Being able to say, I don't know, but I know you probably do Being able to give credit away and go, you know, brilliant job that you just did there, or the ability to pass on and share knowledge, not keep it and protect it. You know, that kind of vulnerability. And to say if you're feeling scared in a moment or you don't know the answers, that kind of thing, that's actually strength. But it's portrayed. We've been trained to kind of see that as weakness. But actually, vulnerability, I think, is a huge leadership skill for sure.

B (12:55)

And I think it's something that people don't exercise enough for the same reason. Again, if I put myself out there on the line, do I feel like I'm naked in the snow and I'm showing everybody something that they don't normally see? It is very hard for us to be able to say, I was wrong. I need advice. I don't know. And there is a training behind that that we grow up with and how we first get into the workplace and all of the things that are programmed into us. And I think a lot of what we have to learn is how to deprogram. In order for you to pick up a new habit, you can't just put it on top of something else. That is already a fundamentally held belief. You actually have to deprogram the other thing first and then reprogram in another direction. And when you think about the simple things, even just from, like, boys and girls growing up, like, boys don't cry, you can't show your feelings. You have to show up strong. And these are the kinds of myths, if you will, or belief systems that you have to stand back and say, how do I meet the moment? What does this person need from me right now? And then act accordingly. Like your restaurant example. These people need this thing right now. And I'm gonna take it even a step further to make this something very memorable that was customized for them in their moment.

A (14:25)

Well, just like you were saying earlier about what's the reason why you wouldn't be kind? Fear of embarrassment. Similar with vulnerability, actually not knowing what the reaction's gonna be. It's very uncomfortable, isn't it, when you're vulnerable with people that work for you? I remember being in that situation before and finding it really, really uncomfortable, but the reaction was incredible. Honestly, it just completely changed the relationship I had with the team at the time.

B (14:48)

If you don't put personal stuff out there, it's hard for people then to relate with personal stuff back. So I often find that when you're willing to say, hey, this is what's going on with me right now. So I'll give you a perfect example. My mom was diagnosed with cancer and we're going through chemo treatments and it's important for people around me to know that. And as soon as you open that door and you say, hey, this is what's going on with me right now, I'm gonna need to take a couple of trips to Miami. I'm dealing with this situation. All of a sudden you see that everybody wants to talk and have that shared moment of what's going on with them. And the more that you understand what is going on behind the person right now, the better you can work together as a team and the better you can support each other. So talking about kindness, and I'll bring this full circle. I had shared that with my team and it turns out that one of the folks that worked for me, her name is Milani, her daughter, her 10 year old daughter actually crochets coverings for cancer patients who are losing their hair. And she went home and she told her daughter that my mom was going through cancer treatments and she had lost her hair. And her 10 year old daughter knit, crocheted my mother hats to wear while she was going through this process of losing her hair. Talk about kindness. That is an act of kindness. So I went to Florida, I brought my mom the hats. She opened it, read the card, you know, put them on, and I videoed it to share with Andrea, who's Melania's daughter. And then my mom wrote her a beautiful thank you note telling her how it felt. So an act of kindness followed another act of kindness. And Andrea felt so special that she had gotten this handwritten note from the boss's mother. You know, so think about that ripple effect. And that just came from me sharing a real life moment that was happening for me.

A (16:49)

We're going back to the fear of embarrassments. While stopping kindness in that situation, your vulnerability took away the fear of embarrassment because you've been vulnerable first. It gives people permission, doesn't it, to then step in and be kind in response to that which creates the virtuous circle. The other thought I had as thinking about the role of kindness is actually how powerful it can be through your career, but also as you do business development. I mean, I found, I mean, even just like doing this podcast, as a small example, the more you give away and help other people, whether they're kind of looking for a job or they need some advice or, you know, they want to ask you for your technical expertise on something, generally speaking, the more you give away, the more that comes back in ways you never imagined. Whether it's a recommendation to kind of join a, you know, join a group or speak on a stage or whatever it is, you know, I mean, it's incredibly powerful that you kind of give to the world and then the kind of world gives back many times over. And I think we forget that, that, you know, it can also be sensible business to be kind, you know, and

B (17:49)

that's the stuff people remember. So even when you haven't seen somebody in a long time or a moment comes up where things are going to pay them back as, as, as you're talking about, usually where they go to is a moment of kindness. They never forgot that moment when something happened to them. And you exercise this gesture of care that stood out in their life. And those are the things that people remember that hold onto and that shine throughout their journeys.

A (18:19)

So, so true. So, yeah, so true. I mean, talking about your mum. I remember my mum died sadly, suddenly when I was about 27. And I remember having to take three weeks off work. And the weird thing was when I came back to work, they didn't. They. I think they'd not mentioned why I was off, so everyone thought I was on holiday. So when I got back, everyone was saying, do you have a good holiday? And I, I was so cut up about it and emotional, I found it hard to say. But the. I can tell you precisely, and there were only three people in the company that ever said anything to me. But I remember those people. I remember what they said and I remember their bravery. Saying it, you know, it meant so much. You know what I mean? And they weren't necessarily three people close to me either. They weren't like on my team or anything. They're just people that just were brave enough to go, we heard what happened. And you know, with f you sort of thing, you're right. You never forget. Yeah.

B (19:09)

And when you think about the gestures of care or the moments of kindness that have happened throughout your career, they don't have to be these big monumental things. Somebody did something wonderful and, you know, this weekend is their anniversary, you can say to them, hey, go expense a meal on me this weekend. Sending somebody flowers when you know they're having a tough week and it's full of color and you say, you know, sending this to brighten up your week. Or there are so many little things that can be done that show how much you care. And I think a lot of it just comes down to the fact that you see them, that you recognize that this is something that they may need from you right now. And that can come in many different sizes, shapes and forms. Sometimes it's. It's an affirmation that they can repeat in the morning that helped you through a certain moment in your life. It's the recognition that you care about them, that you see them beyond the fact that they are at this job to do this task and deliver this result, but that they're actually a human and that you're having a human to human connection.

A (20:20)

And as far as the other point to make is the loyalty that also breeds to you as a boss is incredible or to the team. You know, it doesn't have to be like boss to, you know, boss to employee. It could be across the team. But the loyalty that creates some simple gesture can then be paid back enormously in terms of someone's loyalty to the cause and the business as well. So it's kind of makes good business sense as well as human sense, doesn't it?

B (20:45)

Yeah, it's funny that you should say that because Melania, who I was talking about, whose daughter crocheted my mom the hat, she's on her third tour with me across three different companies and her daughter has watched the journey. So, you know, I've been her boss for a long time, right? So this is important. And it reverberates just outside of what happens in the office. And she overhears because of COVID and how much we were, we were at home, she overhears our conversations, our one on ones, the stuff her mom does for a living. And we do a lot of work, cruelty free markings and bring forward the double certified cruelty free we have on our visual merchandising. And her mom is our head of visual merchandising. So she constantly heard that elf is cruelty free. And at school they asked her to do a project to focus on something she cared about. And she actually chose to study cruelty free. Why that matters, why that's important. So I'm in my one on one with Melani and Andrea is sitting next to her like, oh my God, is that Corey? Mom, I've been waiting for you to be on with Corey. Is that Corey? Is that Corey, is that Corey? And her mom really needed the time with me. So she's like, andrea, not now. I'm with my boss, I gotta get my work done. And I looked at Melania and I go get her on the zoom. If she wants to talk to me, I want to hear what she has to say. And she was so excited to get on the Zoom with me to tell me that she chose cruelty free as the topic that she had to get up in front of her whole school and deliver as a public speech. So what did I do? I asked her to read it to me.

A (22:13)

Wow.

B (22:14)

And just in that moment, again, think about what that meant for her. Wait, I'm important enough that you want to hear my speech? So that is a simple gesture. What did it cost? 4 minutes. But it is a lifetime for that kid. And that memory of somebody caring and wanting to hear what they had done and the work they'd done and the thing that they were passionate about. And I think if you take that back to now, her crocheting these hats for my mom. Right. These are acts of kindness that have that ripple effect. You see that right there?

A (22:52)

Crochet hat is a beautiful symbol of that, isn't it? I love that. I think that's a pretty magical place to round it off. So, look, kindness, I think, is underrated as, you know, as important in business. So really glad we had this conversation. And I love that you're bringing bold disruption together with kind hearts, because I've not seen that combination before, but it makes a lot of sense.

B (23:14)

I think one challenge we should give every listener is just take one kind act today.

A (23:20)

So, from Corey Marchisoto, myself, thank you so much for listening and watching to Unsense and Renegades. We genuinely, genuinely hope that you enjoyed this conversation. Now, we do have one little request. We would love it if you could leave us a review. Reviews are so important to other people discovering this show. So wherever you get your podcast from, go and drop us a review. We would really appreciate it. Thank you.