A (3:25)

64 nights this year?

B (3:27)

This year. So this is 64 nights that I've slept in a Marriott property. So this is only Marriott. I concentrate my points on Marriott and ihg. So this one is definitely the most concentrated. And I looked at my phone and without context, just thinking, in my own small universe, 64. And I'm like, that's two months I've spent in a hotel room. And then everybody put up their phone and I had the lowest number.

A (3:56)

Oh, no, you didn't.

B (3:57)

I had the lowest number. What? So if that gives you a. And they were all CMOs. So if that gives you a sense of what it takes to be a cmo. It is a lot of personal stuff. Sacrifice. Now, again, it also comes with great gain. We're enriching our worlds. We're expanding the limits of our own perception and perspectives. And so it. I never want to complain about it. Like it's a bad thing. It's a reality of the world we're living in. And it comes with things like a constant fight with my husband.

A (4:38)

How do you resolve that kind of thing? How do you get the balance right between your home life and your professional life? Because there's clearly quite a big trade off to make. So how do you decide? Is it worth it or not? At what point would you reconsider?

B (4:51)

Yeah, it's a tough one. I think it always starts with you. So the first thing I had to do was be at peace with it myself. I have to be at peace with the fact that I'm a road warrior and accept that as the incredible position of privilege that it is. And all of the great benefits that come with it. And also the sacrifices, the work I'm doing is to try to get my husband to also be at peace with that. And I think that Comes with time and it also comes with recognizing what are the non negotiables. So one thing I'm terrible at is calling him when I'm on the road. So when I realized that most of the things he was really frustrated about was, not only was I gone, but I didn't have some sort of regularly scheduled check in, it would be like, oh shit, I'm about to go to bed. I forgot to call my husband today. It's midnight wherever I am. Who knows what time it is, where he is. And that's where the argument would begin. So I had to come to peace with the fact that there are certain things that are going to be important for him while I'm on the road. And I've gotta make sure that I can do that in a ritualistic manner. So I got way better at that over time. I was really terrible at it. Like there are some days I'd be like, how many days has it been since I called my husband? I don't recommend that. It's a terrible thing. So I'm now in a more ritualistic pattern. So he's happier and recognizing that I'm making an effort. So that's one thing. And then the other thing is when you are actually together, to not spend time fighting about when you're not together and to really make sure that the time you are together is precious and focused on the beauty of the moment.

A (6:30)

Yeah, that resonates a lot with me. I think I probably have a carbon copy of your experience there. I get that a lot. One thing I, I struggle with in this respect as well is, is, is managing your energy levels is something that I think people don't really realize because if I take my most frequent trip, which would probably be to New York probably almost every month now, there's a five hour time difference, so you've got the jet lag. That means from a British perspective, you know, you're up really late. So it'd be like, you know, if you're up till 10pm, it's equivalent of 3am and then you try and get to sleep, but your body clock wakes you up at New York time of like 2:3am and then you end up logging in. And of course there's like a whole, almost half a day of emails have come in because UK's woken up way ahead of you sort of thing. So you end up working super early in the morning. You have your day, you know, you have your full day and then you have evening things and then you don't sleep properly. The next night and certainly doing the job I do. Like you're, you know, being fresh, being on your game, being clear to think is so important. Your value comes from being able to deliver things. There's you, I mean, I mean, you've got an even more demanding job than I have, but you have to turn up and deliver. You know, you have to be prepared, you have to know what you're doing, you have to deliver and then go to the next thing. And often what you're doing, whether it's customer presentations or presenting to the entire company, or coming up with, you know, the strategy, you need to think clearly. And I personally find that that's the thing that I have to try and manage is how do you maintain that kind of, you know, energy level throughout all the travel?

B (7:58)

It's really mental conditioning. And one of the things especially you're a keynote speaker. I do keynotes as well. Sometimes you roll off a plane because the travel never works out the way you anticipate. Barely have a time to get in the shower, and then you have to get on a stage in front of a large number of people and make sure that you can deliver value to your audience. Those I find to be some of the toughest moments. And before those moments, you really have to mental condition and give yourself what I call a vertical moment, where you just stand, put your feet on the ground, get some deep breathing, recognize the space that you're in, and then be able to step into the energy field that you're gonna need to be able to deliver the hard part. With all of the things that you're bringing up, the jet lag, the time zones, the travel is, you definitely don't sleep as much. So you're almost doing two full time jobs because you wanna be present where you are. And as leaders, one of the most important things that we need to do is be present. Why am I gonna be here in London if I'm on my phone or my laptop all the time with New York, San Francisco, Louisiana or wherever else I need to be in this moment? So you want to be present with the team that you're with, doing the thing that you're doing and at the same time an entire day is happening somewhere else. Right. And your inbox is filling up and your WhatsApp chains and all of the things are happening. So I find that I'll get back to a, I'll do a full day work, then usually have an evening, whether it's agency, partners, teammates, or whatever it is that you're doing for the evening, building relationships. Then I'll get back to the hotel, let's call it 11 or midnight. And now you get on your email, and that could take you till 2, 3, even 4 in the morning. And then you gotta get up and do it all over again. So it is something that you have to figure out for yourself, like what is going to bring you the energy. For some people, that means going to the gym in the morning, working out and getting their day ready. For me, I'd rather take the extra 30 minutes of sleeping or whatever that's gonna take. So. So I have learned to be on less sleep when I'm traveling, and then when I'm home, I make sure that I get my regimented seven or eight hours sleep every night.

A (10:11)

So, yeah, no, no, I do the same. I think one thing I'm getting better at now as well is actually scheduling a little bit of recovery time into my agenda, I think. I mean, if I was in New York, then Nashville last week, and I remember it because it takes about three or four days before you're in the normal sleep pattern, doesn't it? So the first three or four days, I'll probably sleep max three or four hours because of that, because of the jet lag. But actually putting in my diary little bits of recovery time or gaps in the schedule where I don't have to be there in time, it's been a bit of a lifesaver, actually.

B (10:41)

That's excellent advice.

A (10:42)

Yeah. And you have to, because. Because the trap I fall into is I go, I'm in New York for four days only, and there are more people I want to see than there are hours in the day. So instinctively I go, I must pack it completely. But then what happens is, in every meeting, I know that I'm not delivering to the level that I would want to deliver, or I'm meeting someone, I want to build a relationship with them. And I know I'm not giving in that relationship as much I should be doing. So I actually find it's better to do a bit less, but do the bit less better. I mean. A phrase that a previous guest on the show, wonderful woman Sophie Devonshire, talks about in her book, Leading at Speed is Strategic Laziness, which I just love the concept of. I love this idea, which is actually you choose to do more with less and being very choiceful. So I think some discipline I'm trying to get into is okay. I've got a trip. What are the peaks I need to achieve? You know, so last week we recorded, and then I went to Walgadar in Nashville and David Droga and this sort of thing. And then. But actually building buffers around those moments to go, I want to turn up fully energized and clear, and I want to have a little bit of recovery time, almost anticipating. I know I'm going to be jet lagged. I know I've got a, you know, a series of calls to do before and just anticipating those things and almost thinking about your energy levels and actually planning and knowing that that's going to be the case.

B (12:00)

So what I call that is soul care. And that is actually the name of a brand that we created at ELF together with Alicia Keys. And I think this is a really important thing when you're traveling is moments of soul care. And that's a moment, even the five minutes it takes to wash your face. It's wash your face without looking at your phone and doing your email or listening to a podcast or having an argument with your husband or wife, whatever it is that you're doing, but being totally present in the moment, being there for you in that moment, recognizing where you are, where you stand. And funny aside about Alicia Keys, one of her tours, that world tour she was doing, we had a program we were doing before they started, which was called Soul Care Sessions, where people would have really beautiful, intimate dialogues about really anything. She would invite people to talk about affirmations, how they care for themselves, anything that's happening in their lives. Just really beautiful intimate dialogue. And after a couple of cities where I ended up being in, I wouldn't say on the road with her, but in the same cities, I said to her, oh my gosh, this is, you know, maybe the fourth or fifth time I'm seeing you, but how many cities have you been to in the interim? And she'd say something like, oh, this is my 20th or 21st. And again, contextually, you start to realize where you are on the spectrum of what travel actually looks like for folks. And I said, how do you possibly even know where you are with that many cities that you're almost turning every day or every two days or every three days? And she said that sometimes she'll have her people on her team right on the mirror in the hotel room that she's in, where she is, so that when she wakes up in the morning, she's not disoriented, wondering, what time is it? Where am I? What time zone am I in? And that really resonated with me because there are moments when I wake up completely disoriented. Does that happen to you where you are wondering for a minute where you

A (14:02)

are, where am I, what's going on? Yeah, yeah. And often technology doesn't always help. Cause sometimes your laptop hasn't updated with the local time zone or something and you get caught out. The diary hasn't synced properly. One other challenge, I think, and you lead a lot of people in the organization. It's very hard to travel and lead, right? Because when you're leading in the same time zone, everyone's in the same place. You can, you know, you've got your office hours, you're all together, you can communicate quickly, everyone's connected. How do you manage leading the organization? And you're obviously a global organization as well. How do you lead with all the time zone, the travel, you're unavailable, unusual hours, et cetera? How does that work?

B (14:40)

Somebody is always making a sacrifice. So when I think about our innovation team, for example, we have chemists in China, laboratories in China, you'll have somebody on the phone, it's 10 or 11 o' clock at night for them, and it's early in the morning for somebody else. And as long as that is not the norm, but rather the exception to the rule. We also have, we have seven offices. We have China, we have India, and then even across the US you have different time zones. I'm in California with the team in New York. Three hours is actually a big difference when you're going about the workday. And the New Yorkers are waiting for the team in California to wake the ELF up because we got things that need to be done. So it's everybody having empathy for the other and trying to find the times that are the least disruptive for the most amount of people, knowing that it's never gonna be perfect for everybody. So it's just, it can be done. We do it. We even have town halls and other moments where we bring together actually everybody. Somebody's making a sacrifice. So they accept it because they know it's a valuable moment in time and they're getting valuable information and they get to be together in an important setting with their colleagues. And at the same time, you can't ask that of people every day. So you find the thing that works for, let's just say, the greatest amount of people and you try to focus your energy on those times.

A (16:10)

So we talked about the sacrifice of time. Like obviously, because you're all over the place as travel sacrifice in terms of how you then manage others. There's also, you've also got a hard job to do. Right. You've also got things you have to deliver. So that's another thing I think people don't realize in amongst all of that, you're also having to deliver what is a fairly tough position as the leader of the.

B (16:33)

Do you know where is the best place to do work?

A (16:36)

For me, it's probably on my bike.

B (16:38)

On your bike. How are you doing? Work on your bike. Because I'm thinking for me it's the airplane.

A (16:45)

Yeah, me too, actually. I love that.

B (16:47)

The amount of work I get done on the airplane is absolutely exceptional. And I love the flight from New York to California and California to New York because it's five and a half to six hours of uninterrupted plane time. And because I'm not doing an overnight sleep, it's a daytime flight. Either way, even if I get home late at night. Regardless, I usually pound out an entire week of work in five or six hours. And on weeks when I actually don't travel, I struggle with where is there a five or six hour brick of time where I can actually get my work done? So I love what you said about your bike for thinking time. Thinking time and working time for me are two different things. So thinking time, there's blocks on my calendar, usually after hours, but really important because one of the things that I like to do every day is reflect on the day. And this does not take a long time. And I asked myself, very top side, what went really well today? And most importantly, why did it go well? What had to be true for it to go well? And then on the other side of the chart, what didn't go so well today? I wasn't great in that meeting. I was in a bad mood. I said something I shouldn't have said, whatever it is, and then I try to unpack. Well, what happened? Why was that not great? And the reason I do that is because I believe in incremental progress. So if I close the day out today knowing what was great and knowing what wasn't, then I'll have a better day tomorrow and I'll have more of the great, hopefully, and less of the not so great. So I also do that when I'm traveling and I make sure that I make that a ritual. So I constantly have a state of incremental progress and improvement.

A (18:37)

Well, I think that's the perfect bit of advice to end on. We just hit 20 minutes.

B (18:41)

We did.

A (18:41)

There you go.

B (18:42)

If you do one thing, if you do one thing, reflect at the end of every day and ask yourself what went great today? And what didn't and why.

A (18:51)

There you go. There it is. So, from Cory Marchesoto, myself, thank you so much for listening and watching to Unsensed Renegades. We genuinely, genuinely hope that you enjoyed this, this conversation. Now, we do have one little request. We would love it if you could leave us a review. Reviews are so important to other people discovering this show. So wherever you get your podcast from, go and drop us a review. We would really appreciate it. Thank you.