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- [00:00]
A
Hey, everyone. Just before we get into the show, I just wanted to give a really big shout out to my founding sponsor, System One. As many of you know, I worked at System One, and before that I was actually a client of theirs. Now, the thing I love about System One is when I need to make a big decision, they have been there to help me. Because what System One does is use the power of emotion to help predict the likely impact of my innovation or advertising. So when I've been stuck in the boardroom needing to justify why we're going to pick one creative route over another, or launch this innovation over that one, it has been indispensable. It's also really simple to use. Very actionable and incredibly good value too. So if you want to find out more about System One's Test yout Add or Test yout Innovation, simply go over to systemonegroup.com and find out more. Okay, without further ado, let's go on with the show. Ladies and gentlemen, welcome back to Uncensored cmo. Now, one thing people often ask me is what is it actually like to. To be a cmo? And how do you become successful? And I was asked that question late last year and I replied with a rather different answer, which is, you'd be surprised that great CMOs don't do much marketing. In fact, they have a completely different set of 4Ps. And that led to TikTok asking me to write a report called the Real 4Ps for CMO. And to discuss this report, I got together with one of the most fantastic, most experienced CMOs on the planet, Susan O', Brien, who was formerly CMO of Justy, to talk through the report's finding and get her particularly to share her experience of managing at the top. There are loads of fascinating insights in the report and we are discussing why they matter and what you can learn from them. Here we go. Ladies and gentlemen, welcome back to Unsensed cmo. Now, we have a returning guest in this episode, none other than Susan o' Brien for the former CMO of Just Eat. And we're here to talk about all things CMO related.
- [01:55]
B
Wow. Listen, it's great to be back. Thanks for having me, John.
- [01:58]
A
It's good to have you back.
- [01:58]
B
Yeah, it's great. It feels like yesterday. It does, doesn't it? Yeah, yeah, it's weird. But it's not yesterday because it was 2023 from end of 2023.
- [02:07]
A
Yes. Yeah, we were talking about all the amazing work you did on Just Eat.
- [02:12]
B
The amazing work that I did with the team of course.
- [02:15]
A
You're very good at that, Susan, I have to say. You're very, very good. I know, I know. Share the love for anyone who doesn't know about your tenure. So you were CMO for about nine years, I think I might say.
- [02:27]
B
Well, it's fair to say when I joined Just eat back in 2016, I was a freelance consultant working on a rebrand. And then fast forward nine years, I left and my role then was the global cmo. So, yeah, I was the global CMO for a couple of years. Prior to that, I was VP of global brand. Yeah. And fifth chief exec by the time I left.
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A
Oh, wow. So you out. You out lasted five chief execs.
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B
Yeah.
- [02:53]
A
That's impressive. So just take us back to the beginning then, because a lot change in the category between when you started, when you left. So what was happening in the category when you started?
- [03:03]
B
Well, it is a long time ago and in fact, I was talking to someone about this the other day saying, oh, you know, it's kind of what you do. It's part of how people live their lives. And I said, yeah, but it wasn't like that back in 2016, it was a, you know, your classic Friday or Saturday night treat. It was primarily that those restaurants who had their own delivery capability. And then the whole world changed, of course. But yeah, now it's a thing and people kind of demand and want what they want when they want it. And so the category responded and lots of competition came in. Yeah, and that category was born and then almost reborn during COVID when everything took off, when lots of people were concerned about their own businesses, our business was flying, that proper hockey stick opportunity for us because, you know, people were looking for things to be delivered to their home and kind of contact free. So, yeah, it changed massively and I was part of all of that. So, yeah, kind of humble beginnings into kind of global brand by the time that I left. So yeah, that's amazing.
- [04:07]
A
And what role did the marketing play in it? Because obviously, did somebody say, has become very quickly, I think one of the most iconic kind of platforms any brand has done. How did that come about? Where did that, where did that originate from?
- [04:20]
B
That came about when we decided to move. Move from a essentially hybrid operating model where all the markets had their own marketing directors and were running with their own agencies, etc, into that understandably desire to be able to scale and drive some efficiencies by doing things once, wherever you could. So it wasn't about global tidiness, it was just about being Sensible. As we were growing as an organization, can we create playbooks that can be better articulated locally in Spain or in Italy? Italy or whatever. But, yeah, that came about in 2018, and we launched in 2019, the brand platform, and then it kind of really blew up. Yeah. During COVID with. When we launched in May 2020 with Snoop and the work that we did with Snoop. So. So, yeah, it came about through that kind of desire to be a bit smarter about how we operated in terms of level of investment and also making sure that, you know, we're kind of building off the fact that there are more similarities than dissimilarities between people who happen to live in different countries. So that's where it came from under a new chief exec who'd just come in, actually, and that was Peter Duffy. So, yeah, under Peter's remit, we kind of went through a pitch process where we appointed McCann and then ran with the work that they pitched with, which is also very, very rare, I believe, to launch work that they presented at the pitch. So, yeah, it takes me back.
- [05:56]
A
It does. Now, did somebody say, does that translate globally into lots of different languages? Or did you run the English? Did somebody say, was it the same?
- [06:06]
B
It's a great question, John. And three little words. It does transcreate. Yes. Sometimes really simplistically, sometimes literally, sometimes with quite a little bit of local nuance, which is where you have to lean into the local markets. I don't speak Danish, I don't speak Dutch. We transcreated it for all those markets where we didn't run it in English. And then in some markets where, you know, we didn't go with the local language, it sounded better, more modern, more relevant to go with the English language version. But, yeah, when we launched it, we were in 22 markets. When I left in 2025, we were in 18 markets. 17, 18 markets. So. So, yes, some markets we were language specific and other markets we kept it in English.
- [06:52]
A
But the idea of, oh, did somebody say, does that trans. Does that insight translate into many cultures? Do they have that kind of moment?
- [07:00]
B
So, for example, in Germany, and my pronunciation, sorry, for anyone who's listening, who speaks German, is. Which means, did I hear? Did I hear? And then it would be finished with Lee Ferrando, which is what we were called in that local market. So that's what I mean. It's not a straight translation. It's a transcreation of the meaning and the sentiment of what that indirect call to action was all about. With. Did somebody say, yeah, and what was
- [07:28]
A
the thought behind having so many celebrities? I think you had Snoop, you had Christina and Latto, you had Katy Perry. Even Craig David makes an appearance.
- [07:36]
B
Craig David, the most recent one. Yeah. In the UK market only and in Ireland. So. So what's with the celebrities? Look, there was. There was a need and part of the brief was about becoming famous. And so the way to fast track that is by cheating a little bit and using some of the halo effect of some of those, you know, celebrity individuals to help elevate the brand into a different stratosphere. And so, yeah, you do lots of research and work out which. Which one of these celebrities is recognized and relevant across various markets. And of course, in some markets it was greater or lesser than, but on the whole, that's why we launch with Snoop. And then when you find that magic source, when you've got something that seems to be working and resonating and people are talking about, then you go, okay, you've got that universality of music that transcends generations, cultures, markets, etc. You go, let's go again. And who else can we go again with? And that's when we went with Katie. So Katie was up second and she was incredible to work with, actually kind of really launching her kind of European status and fame. And then my kind of last iteration with the team was all about Christina and Lato. And again, you can see straight through the strategy in terms of appealing to different generations. But, you know, I don't mind. I don't mind if you can see through that, but that's why we went with it. It was kind of music became. Became a universal language. We were able to create lyrics that basically delivered on our commercial requirements and what we were trying to get known for out in the marketplace. And they delivered that with aplomb in their own little way that was very relevant and real and authentically them. And we were able to ride off the coattails.
- [09:29]
A
Amazing. There's some really good system. One research called the long and the short form of it done with TikTok, and it showed that sonic devices are the most effective in short form content, the most effective way to get branding across and create a memory. And I also came across. I know we had a bit of a laugh about this as well. ITV did some research with. I was gonna say Gogglebox. Sorry, I mean, think box. Yeah, but it's like Gogglebox.
- [09:59]
B
Yeah, it was.
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A
They.
- [10:01]
B
They were filming people.
- [10:02]
A
Yeah, yeah, filming people watching the ads. It's the funniest thing I've ever seen. I mean, the first insight which won't surprise anyone is the amount of people that aren't watching the ads during the. I think it was somewhere about 30% of people were actually watching the ads during the break, but 70% of people were listening to the ads. And then they had this brilliant moment. And it happened quite a few times in the research where people sat on the couch going, no one watches the ads. And then there's this guy, I'm on
- [10:27]
B
my phone, I'm not watching. Exactly.
- [10:29]
A
Like, no one watches the ads. These ads. This guy with his girlfriend. And then just eat comes on and he literally looks around and goes, did somebody say. And they go on the app and they order their dinner and they carry on talking about no one watches the ads these days.
- [10:42]
B
Yeah, the power of advertising.
- [10:43]
A
Yeah, it is incredible. But there's something, isn't it? I think, you know, you're one of the case studies in creating a sonic device that gets in people's head and creates branding in all sorts of different moments.
- [10:54]
B
Yeah. And look, the sonic piece and the audio, we knew it was powerful because we worked with. With you guys that were then, you know, System one, to see whether, you know, we could, you know, whether we had something that. That people could, you know, annoyingly became an earworm for good and bad. You know, so we were both an irritant and. And a joy and. And then getting something that kids were singing about and playgrounds and what have you was, you know, magic. You know, we never anticipated that. But the key to that then was making sure that you repeat, repeat, repeat and hold your nerve and don't change and don't fiddle with it and just keep it, you know, consistent. That whole bit around consistency, yeah, that was really important for us. And we did variations of that, you know, just eat takeaway were sponsors of UEFA and Champions League. And so we created with the. Did somebody say line and audio, a different version that was taken into the world of football, which was, again, slightly tongue in cheek. But we had the creative license to do that, so we did and we played around with it, but on the whole, it was kind of the same beats, the same words and the same, you know, ultimate intonation of the sound of the. The music that was going alongside it. So. So, yeah, it's all about repetition.
- [12:13]
A
Yeah. Now, when the category is growing as fast as it did, how do you identify the contribution that the campaign made to. Because, presumably the. Because of COVID and everything else, you know, people are ordering more, you know, at home. How do you measure what impact the campaign had versus the other levers in terms of drivers and pricing.
- [12:31]
B
Well, it's like anything, isn't it? So marketing exists as the growth engine to deliver the numbers, to deliver the business plan. And so it's the sum of the parts, John, is what I'd say. So is there any point looking at what did that marketing do in total isolation? Because the business was there humming together to do that, making sure that we had the right level of couriers, that we've got the right level of supply, that everyone's open at the right time, and then amplifying it through advertising, communications and what have you. But it's the sum of the part making sure that the pricing's right for people at that time during COVID So. So it was a difficult one, if I'm going to completely put it. But you know, we're able to quantify differences in the brand tracker in terms of our top of mind awareness numbers. You know, what did that, what happened to that in cities and in markets, you know, countries overall, what happened in terms of, you know, kind of the organic reach that we got with people sharing the content that we were creating that we hadn't had before. So it was kind of all the pieces of, if you like, of the marketing jigsaw all working together to deliver ultimately what was going on to capitalize, to be blunt, what was going on in the marketplace? The demand for sure was there. Would it have been as good for us in terms of people thinking about us first when it came to making that buying decision? I don't know. We were, it was fiercely competitive, so we were up against that. You know, we wanted to be the number one, you know, go to platform that people thought about when they wanted to order something to be delivered at home. So it's difficult to isolate it. I mean, we do lots of, you know, incrementality testing when it comes to. To stuff like that. But, you know, it was all systems go. Everybody was pushing hard, business was flying. I mentioned the hockey stick in terms of what was going on in the category and for us overall, so difficult to isolate, you know. Was it the Snoop campaign that helped do it again? I would say of course it helped, but it, it was definitely what everything else that was going on in the, you know, in the economic environment around us at the time.
- [14:38]
A
Now, one misnomer I think a lot of people have about CMOs and I know back in the day when I used to be one long time ago now it's having spent the last seven years working Research and doing podcasts. But I remember people being really shocked at how little time I personally spent on campaigns. I remember working with Gray, I think we were working at the time. And I remember saying to them, you do realize that about 5% of my time is actually spent doing what you do. Like if I spend 5% of my week on the creative work, that's a good week for me. Like the rest of time I'm doing, you know, people planning, all sorts of other things.
- [15:12]
B
It's true, it's true, it's true. Well, I mean, I think, you know, you spend time kind of, for want of a better word, climbing the ladder. As a marketer, you're really good in that function. In fact, you're brilliant in that. Then you have to become that T shaped leader where you have to spread yourself quite thin across different subject matter because it's about the overall business. And so yes, when you talk about campaigns or marketing per se, it becomes really reduced as you, the higher you get. So you spend a lot more time doing people reviews, purchase orders, compliance, staff governance, risk assessments, risk assessment, all those things that actually aren't within the true marketing remit. And so, yeah, I would often walk around the floor of the creative Studio, for example, and say, oh, show me what you're working on. And they go, oh no, no, I can't show you that because, you know, the head design hasn't seen it and she doesn't want. I'm like, I'm stuck in my office like signing off budgets or reforecasting. So yeah, you're absolutely right, John. The kind of high you get as a marketer, the less marketing, weirdly.
- [16:21]
A
It is weird, yeah. And it's a completely different skill set as well, isn't it? You know, in terms of like leading people, organizations and managing risk and shareholders and all those kind of things. It's a very different skill set.
- [16:32]
B
It is a different skill set and I can hold my hand up saying I hadn't completely appreciated how broad you need to be. I mean, I love leading people, I love all that side of the business. I love marketing. That's why I've been working in it, fascinated with customers and why people do what they do. But yeah, all of those other things that I wasn't completely cognizant that that is going to play a really, really important role in how you are appreciated and how you need to operate, you know, successfully in a business. So yeah, that came to me a little bit late. So that's if anyone is listening, which I'm sure they are, John. Yeah, that. Take heed of that as you climb that ladder.
- [17:16]
A
It's probably the. The old phrase of what got you here won't get you there is so true in this particular aspect. And it really does flip because you get promoted by being good at marketing and then you get to the top by being good as a leader.
- [17:29]
B
Yeah.
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A
And that's the challenge. It came to light, actually. So last, I think it was November, December last year, had lunch with Kate and Izzy from TikTok and they were picking my brains, going, we're going to do our first ever CMO event. And John, we'd like. We'd like your input because, you know, CMOs, what marketing topics should we cover? And I went back to them and said, none. They're like, what do you mean? What do you mean?
- [17:51]
B
Thanks.
- [17:52]
A
I said, honestly, do you know, like, CMOs rarely do any marketing. I kind of gave the example of, like, maybe 5% of my week might be spent with the creative agency, but most of it is doing other things. They say, oh, that's interesting. So what were you doing? And I said, well, it's the. I call it the real four P's of the cmo. You know, people planning, persuasion and performance. Right. I said, these are things you have to do. You have to basically manage your people. You have to create a plan that everyone can follow. You need to persuade a lot of other functions. You do not understand what you do and you're on the hook for performance. Not your own performance, everyone else's performance, which is really hard. So if the business goes up, everyone's a winner. If it goes down, we've got a marketing problem. Right. That's how it is. And I said, if you really want to be useful to CMOs, they're your four Ps. Anyway, I didn't think anything of it. And then I got a call from them a couple weeks later going, yeah, we love what you said.
- [18:44]
B
Let's do an event around the 4Ps, John's new 4Ps.
- [18:47]
A
There we go. So not only did it inspire an event, but it also inspired a report which is launching today on the day this episode goes out.
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B
Oh, wow. Congratulations.
- [18:56]
A
So I thought, as you've so kindly helped me do this report. Come on to that.
- [19:01]
B
Yeah, come on to that. Yeah.
- [19:03]
A
I can pick your brains because you're a real CMO here, so I can get you to comment on it. So let me give you some background, or everyone listening a bit of background into what we discovered, because what TikTok said, which I respect them for is. That's great, John, that's your opinion, but can you give us some data?
- [19:18]
B
Yeah. Right, give me the data points to back it up. Sure.
- [19:21]
A
So being good students of kind of marketing science, that's what we did. So went and got 65, which doesn't sound many, but it was quite hard to get 65 very busy CMOs to give us their time to fill in the survey. Right. So we got that and what did it tell us? Well, some great quotes and some great data. Interestingly, just to illustrate the challenge, I was shocked about this because talking about marketing representation at the top of organizations, you would think that every organization has a CMO on the executive team. Well, our survey suggested that was true of 66%. So for one in three companies now these are the CMOs of the best companies in the world and they're talking about that in their organizations. A third of them don't have marketing representation. On the execration, we then asked, what about the board? Now for the board, we asked a softer question. Is there anybody with any marketing experience? And more than 50% said, there's no one with marketing experience on the board.
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B
Wow.
- [20:19]
A
So the first challenge was we talk about marketing influence in the organization, but we're not often represented at the top. And then really where the 4P's idea came from, because I asked actually, who has control of the 4Ps promotion? 92% place, 48% price, 25% product, 23%. So three quarters of senior marketers don't even control their products or their price or their price. Half of them have got control over where it's sold and most of them have control over how it's promoted. But we're accountable, aren't we, for the result, but we're not in control of the input.
- [20:58]
B
Well, yeah. And if you go back to the original four pieces, you said the product price place promotion piece, which is why that is quite staggering number, isn't it? 75% plus not involved in pricing.
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A
Yeah,
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B
I'm not massively surprised. I don't know if that's a good or bad thing, but I'm not massively surprised with that number. But the representation or the lack of representation on the board is worrying the board and the exact is the exec is really worrying because. Yeah, where's, where's your voice? Where, where, where do you counter decisions that are being taken that you then are going to have to execute or implement within the marketing world? So, yeah, that's a bit worrying. We need to do something about that.
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A
And also this is. These are the best companies that I'm talking about.
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B
Sure, 65 of them.
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A
These are the kind of people that have been on the show that you know are representing the best. Are saying a third of them are going to. No representation on the exec was quite surprising. A great quote that came out of the survey as well. Marketing is just seen as the comms department, not the strategy department. And it's interesting actually because one, one question we asked, what skills do you think are lacking in your organization? Now I was thinking maybe it's media planning, maybe it's creativity. Some of the levers we normally talk about. Here's from the bottom up, 6% said media planning, 6% said creativity. I thought that'd be higher because I think everyone wants to be more creative. 12% said a lack of insight, 12, a lack of measurement. But number one by far, with 28% of people said strategic ability in the marketing department in terms of skills that we're lacking.
- [22:36]
B
So CMOs are saying that more than a quarter are lacking the strategic capability within the marketing function.
- [22:43]
A
That's the number one skill they want to add more of into their team.
- [22:49]
B
Yeah. And that might also then play out in terms of where are we putting our energy in terms of where's the marketing energy and the marketing budget going if there is a lack of overall strategy that ties in with a business strategy?
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A
Well, I think this is the thing, isn't it? Because what also came out is there's more pressure to do more with less. So what we found is, I think 75% of people we surveyed grew revenue last year. Only 45% saw an increase in budgets. So there's definitely a squeeze. And we also found that over 75% of people are spending more than half their budget on short term over long. There's a real short term imbalance going on.
- [23:30]
B
Yeah, I mean, I'd comment a couple of things on that. One would be, you know, sometimes, you know, when you are tasked with doing more with less, you get very focused and that's a good thing because you have to really interrogate what you're doing and is it driving business growth, which is what we're ultimately there to do. But it is very worrying about the kind of complete obsession with the, with the short term, which is obviously linked to, you know, business performance and shareholder return on investment, etc. Etc. But you know, as marketeers, we have to build that demand for the future and you can't do that if you are, you know, just in the Tactics every day, all day. You know, you are going to get superseded by other people who understand the both ism. To quote, to quote Ritson, the bothism of kind of long and short and the importance of that to grow the business and to grow the brand that you're looking to develop and you know, the short babysitting period we have as leaders to look after those brands. So yeah, it is a concern, John, the energy that goes into that short term now.
- [24:37]
A
So probably the number one question I get asked by people that listen to the podcast is how do you make the case to shift investment into the long term? Because so many people will say we get the data, we've heard you talk about it on the podcast. How do you make. But we're dealing with an organization that's so short term and they see marketing as effectively a add on to the sales function. How would you make the case?
- [25:00]
B
Well, I've written a few white papers in my time. I think, look, there's a lot of education that one needs to do and a lot of corridor conversations that you need to have and to be able to demonstrate the impact that marketing has on the business long term. But it's not easy when people are under pressure. It's the first thing, let's cut the media budget, let's cut the marketing budget, let's just, you know, we're living, you know, hand to mouth so it is difficult and people, it isn't necessarily that they don't believe in marketing or the brand. They're just under that extreme pressure. And yes, you've got to continue to make the business case to say it's got to be more than just short term performance marketing. It's got to be as I said, building that demand for tomorrow. And you've given us the stats many times about people are only in the market X percent, a very tiny percent, single digit percent of the time when you are there, when they're ready to buy, you know, whether that be, you know, food delivery or whether it be an insurance policy, you know, and so you've got to be relevant to people which is why we talk about, you know, the always on strategy or the pulse strategy. What's your kind of media plan there to make sure that you are top of mind that you are out there and people because the minute you go dark, we're all very fickle, we have very short, short memories and you're just not relevant, you're not there, you're not top of mind. So it's, it's a tough one. But there is a lot around that. Education, sharing paper and also bringing other brands in. I used to do that with the marketing team, you know, bring other brands in to tell you their stories as well. So it's not all very self serving. You know, it's like this is what we did and this is, this is the good and the bad, you know, when you switch things off or when you are doing only near term stuff. So yeah, it's having that open perspective and kind of constantly educating and doing it in a way that is as compelling as possible. So marketeers are storytellers so we have to use that power and that capability to help us. But it's, I'm not saying it's easy,
- [27:03]
A
it's tough and changing the time horizon upon which you measure things, isn't it? Because I found Les Burnett did this study with Meta and I think he found even with Meta that more than half the return of a campaign in six weeks happen outside of the window of measurement.
- [27:19]
B
Yeah.
- [27:20]
A
The moment you change your time horizon, suddenly you change your decisions. You know, and I think we need, as marketers, we need to start presenting three, five, ten year plans rather than six month plans.
- [27:30]
B
It's easier said than done though, John.
- [27:31]
A
It is, yeah.
- [27:32]
B
Yeah. I mean again, I get that because it's often like we may not be here in three years if we don't do this in the near term because we've got to show that return for shareholders. And it is very tricky and it's frustrating and a whole heap of things. But yeah, I think the other thing to say, and I think it was Lucas that said it formally of wise, is that you can get real, really, really good short term results with brand work that you do, but it's all around being present, being consistent and just being out there. So yeah, I think it's going to be an ongoing challenge for marketers to look to solve. But working with your peers around the business who back it and who understand the value, as I said, the value that marketing can bring to deliver the commercial business plan.
- [28:22]
A
I mean you touched on, I think a really important principle earlier with your. Did somebody say campaign? Which is how it compounds over time.
- [28:28]
B
Yeah.
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A
So you get this increased return on investment the more you stick to winning kind of formula. So it's find the winning formula and then once you've got it, then you make the case to double down. Then there's no risk because you're doubling down on something you can prove.
- [28:40]
B
Yeah, for sure. I think the challenge is, and you may have heard me Say this before. The challenge is that we're all very guilty of running off and trying to do new things and keep fiddling with stuff. You know, there might be a slight blip. Oh, we've got to change it. It's like. No, no, no. Now is exactly to use your language when you need to really double down. Stop fiddling with it, be consistent, repeat, repeat, repeat. Because as you said, that compound over time. That's the magic, that's the joy.
- [29:06]
A
There's this lovely quote that came through in the performance section. The CMO job is mostly managing expectations, not growing brands.
- [29:13]
B
Yeah, well, that never changes, does it? You know, and whose expectations are you managing? You know, so the customers.
- [29:21]
A
Well, one should be.
- [29:23]
B
One should be.
- [29:24]
A
Where is your customer? Is your customer outside the building or inside the building? That'll tell you everything.
- [29:28]
B
Yeah, well, we know. We know the importance of that and kind of that Corey talked about it, didn't she? You know, kind of zero distance to the customer. And at Just Eat Takeaway, we had a customer closeness program which keeps it very, very real that, you know, the customers aren't on the whole inside the building. And you need to listen to them. And, you know, you need to be, you know, everyone uses this language, but you need to be absolutely obsessed with what the customer's telling you. And that might differ from the beginning of the year to the middle of the year to the end of the year. You need to be aware of everything that's going on in the environment. But customers will tell you what you need to know and you need to listen. I think that's the key thing.
- [30:06]
A
100%. Now, one of the P's, which I think builds on what we just said there is persuasion. I love the quote here, which everyone will relate to. Everyone thinks they're a marketer. And this is a stat, actually, that I think this is the most shocking stat in the whole report. The question we asked is, could your CEO clearly articulate your marketing strategy? 75% said no.
- [30:34]
B
Wow.
- [30:34]
A
Now we're in the business of communication. We should be the best communicators in the organization as what we're doing in marketing. And they're saying your boss 3/4 can't articulate your own strategy.
- [30:47]
B
We have a massive job to do that, don't we?
- [30:48]
A
And these are the best CMOs in
- [30:50]
B
the world, by the way.
- [30:50]
A
You know, just to put that caveat, it's not any old random sample of junior marketers. This is like, really good ones.
- [30:57]
B
Yeah. And I love your story of can. Do you remember the one I'm talking about.
- [31:03]
A
I think. I think you mean Jen. Do you mean Jen from SaaS?
- [31:06]
B
Yeah, yeah.
- [31:07]
A
It literally is.
- [31:08]
B
I mean, it's fantastic. And maybe there's a lesson there for that. You know, the 75% who can't. Like, there's 25% who know how to do it. So can we learn from that 25%? And I think she's one that you could learn from. A brave move, by the way.
- [31:24]
A
A Jedi move, this one, I think. I mean, again, I was so. It was maybe Can. A couple of years ago, I was at LinkedIn. There are a number of talks there. And then Jen Chase from SaaS was getting up. Now, SaaS haven't done a brand. Hadn't done a brand campaign for 25 years.
- [31:41]
B
Wow. Okay. So big deal.
- [31:43]
A
So, you know, this is a big, big decision. SAS is one of those companies that powers every IT system in every top 100, top 500, you know, company in the world. You just don't realize. But they're embedded in all the systems, you know, so it's a brand everyone, you know, relies on, but they haven't talked about their brand for 25 years. So she tried to sell this in, and it was absolute stroke of genius because she didn't sell it in. Her CFO sold in. And I sat there and watched Peter the CFO talk passionately about Ehrenberg Bass principles. I'm like, what have I just listened to?
- [32:19]
B
Yeah.
- [32:19]
A
And, you know, you know, CFOs are very to the point. And he talked enthusiastically about why brand investment mattered. I thought I was a stroke of genius. Absolute stroke of genius. So the principle of always get other people to tell your story, it's kind of classic PR move, isn't it? Is that you'll believe somebody else that says it. As a marketer, we're paid to say this, right? Everyone assumes we're going to say it.
- [32:40]
B
Yeah. But also, we like saying it. But. But I think why that is so unique and special is it goes back to the point that we said earlier around what your role is as a senior marketer. It's getting people on your side, it's socializing your ideas, it's navigating that. That kind of peer group in the boardroom. And clearly she'd done this brilliantly because she's partnered with her main. Main guy, in this instance, in the finance department, which is always kind of a. You know, it's a. It can be quite an interesting relationship, shall we say. And she's got him to deliver the work which he has to believe in if he's going to stand up and say it. So she's clearly done that background work of saying, I need you to help me do this. And so that sense of partnership, that sense of relationship and connection, she's obviously done that brilliantly. And I think there's something in that for us all to learn.
- [33:34]
A
Yeah, I did. Not quite as Jedi level as her. I mean, I have to say that is right up there. Similarly, I remember I was doing a relaunch from Lucas Aid and I was selling in a pretty bold idea and I went back to the exec and I sold the idea in and everyone is like taking the mickey out of the idea and giving me their opinions and like literally laughing about what I was presenting. And I'm like, this isn't good. And then I remembered, I remember I'd met the founder of System1. This is before I started working with them.
- [34:03]
B
Yeah.
- [34:04]
A
And I remember him. We both taught at Asherish Business School together. We did kind of back to back lectures. And I remember him talking about how behavioral science could predict behavior in advance. And he had a way of kind of predicting how things going to work. I thought, oh, that's interesting. So I found him, I said, can you come and do a talk on behavioral science and how you can predict how advertising might work in the marketplace? And so anyway, I got him in. They were captivated by what he said. And then I didn't present the idea. I presented the results from the test that he performed for me. And he just put the test in the context of on our system we have a five star scale. What John's done here is three and a half. And it was in development as well. This is in the top 15% of ads. And the entire room was literally applauding the very same ad. They're taking the piss out like a week before. But because it was presented as hard data.
- [34:58]
B
Yeah.
- [34:58]
A
Rather than, you know, John's. Here's John with a few mood boards and a rousing speech.
- [35:03]
B
But I think this again, there's a lesson in that, isn't there? You know, it's kind of. Sometimes you do have to get other people to speak on your behalf because you know, here is an individual that's an outsider coming in. You know, you've got the attention in a slightly different way with those data points and you know, that's why a lot of us have used System One to be able to come out of that. Your point there around. Everyone thinks they're a marketer. It's like, give them the data points behind, particularly behind creative, that this is what we believe it's going to do and this is how it features alongside other stuff that you will, as a consumer, you'll be familiar with. So it's kind of, you know, that is the lesson around, you know, using others sometimes to tell your story, but making sure that everything's backed up as much as you can with future predictions or data points based on a pilot or a test. Which is why that kind of test and learn mentality, which is familiar with most marketers, is really helpful because you can show and look. Often you can show data and it's like, I don't believe the data.
- [36:04]
A
Yeah.
- [36:05]
B
And then if you haven't got the data, I need the data. So, yeah, you sometimes caught between a rock and a hard place, to be honest. But. But yeah.
- [36:13]
A
Now, when we were at the TikTok event in February, you and I did a particular session on the people. We did for a reason, by the way. So in the survey, we asked people to tell us the number one challenge that they face now. I'll go from the bottom up here. So it wasn't talent, 4%. It wasn't speed to market, that was 6%. It wasn't even investment levels, that was 9%. It wasn't time and resource, that was 15%. Top two at 23% leadership, 26% politics. So literally, when we presented this, everyone's like giving me these knowing looks, going, yeah, you know, but isn't it interesting that the capabilities to do the job are not our biggest constraints in terms of like, you know, speed and resource and money and so on, but navigating the organization to make things happen. Was that a surprise to you?
- [37:07]
B
No. How quickly I answered that. No, not at all. And I think that again, that there's the lesson for when you're climbing the ladder. To repeat myself, you know, it's less about marketing. It's how you exactly, how you navigate those relationships to enable things to get done. And if you're not very good at that, it's a tough, lonely place to be because, you know, people always talk about it, you know, office politics. It's real, it exists, and you have to minimize it and you have to know how to work through that in a way that is still credible and authentic to you, that you are comfortable with. So, yeah, there's the challenge again. And I know some people who were brilliant at it and some people who were really, really poor at it. I was probably okay at it.
- [37:58]
A
I was Definitely poor. You've touched on something you said that they're happy with, I think in terms of their happiness. Because with organizational politics it's something, it is a discipline itself in how you manage stakeholders, how you align people, how you get people into position. There's definitely a.
- [38:17]
B
Maybe that's a small P on the politics there then. But there is a way of how do you get there? And you have to play it lots of different ways. And of course what you're also doing, you're navigating individuals moods and individuals lives, which sounds fairly dramatic, but. But that is very complicated. And so having that emotional intelligence to understand that, that, that kind of language would work really well for John, but it won't work really well for Fred. And kind of being able to do that is an absolute art and a skill that some people are much better at than others. And when I said happy with, I meant in terms of themselves and that kind of credibility as a leader without kind of selling out.
- [39:04]
A
Yeah.
- [39:05]
B
Type. Type.
- [39:05]
A
That's exactly the tension.
- [39:07]
B
Yeah, it is. Attention. That's a good word.
- [39:09]
A
It felt to me like a game of sorts. You know, the sort of. There were rules of a game that it wasn't necessarily who had the best answer, but who could navigate the organization to the. Say it to the right outcome in a way. Because I used to get, I've got the best answers. This, you know, put my hand up and then it doesn't go anywhere. It's like, oh, okay. What I haven't done is worked out that the, the best answer is the one that gets everybody onto the same page, that gets their support. And the classic thing of the meeting is never the meeting. This is. I learned this way too late.
- [39:40]
B
Yeah.
- [39:41]
A
If you're expecting to pitch in a meeting and get your own. Way too late.
- [39:44]
B
Yeah.
- [39:45]
A
The conversations have already happened.
- [39:47]
B
Yeah.
- [39:47]
A
The decisions have already been made. You know, it's understanding those dynamics, isn't it, that how do decisions get made in a business?
- [39:54]
B
Yeah. And I think you see people in your career that you go, they have genius, they're brilliant at that. And I want to emulate that. And then you see others that you just go, oh no, no, that's not for me, that isn't how I would ever. Even if they get their way or they can get to that end position, you go, no, because there are some leaders that you don't want to emulate who just leave carnage in their wake to get to where they want to get to. Where others with more emotional intelligence are able to do at you know, gliding up and down, sideways and get there, get the same result versus another person who might just have car crash tears. People, you know, coming to your office going, that was awful, the way that person spoke to me, et cetera, et cetera. So, and that is what you call politics with a small, small P, I think, and just finding a way that you're comfortable with and you're right, it's, it's real, it's happening. You can pretend you know the best answer or the best strategy, but actually it's, how do you do that? Gliding.
- [40:59]
A
Very, very, very big question. What were the hardest challenges for you in your role at Just Eat then? In terms of leadership, I think, you
- [41:07]
B
know, there was immense pressure to deliver the numbers. And my style of leadership is one where I would say that I care about the people and how you get to deliver those numbers. So I have very high standards. You know, people would say Suza's foot's always on the gas. You know, my foot's on the accelerator, wanting to go quite fast. But I think the challenges are, you know, always kind of that balance of caring for people as well as delivering what the business needs you to do. So it's not a, it's not a playground. It's like, this is real. We've got to get on with it. And sometimes you have to circumvent or shortcut some of the niceties to deliver the end results. And that's always a bit of a challenge. For some people, maybe not. But for me, in my style of leadership, that was sometimes difficult.
- [41:59]
A
It's hard, isn't it, to care and both do the right thing for the business.
- [42:03]
B
Yeah, it's a fine, fine balance. And I think one where, you know, you have to over index on the communication of how you're going to get there in terms of the strategy and what we're going to. And everyone's clear about that and why there are things that we won't be doing because it won't help us. So, you know, stop doing that, keep doing that. If somebody's stopping doing something that they're passionate about, that, that's quite hard because people take it quite personally because a whole heap of themselves goes into the job and you're sometimes having to say, stop, we don't need to do that because that isn't going to get us to where we need to be.
- [42:40]
A
Just having the hard conversations early. Yeah, you did something I've not heard anyone do before. When you left Justy, you asked all your former colleagues for feedback didn't you?
- [42:51]
B
I did, yeah. Yeah, maybe that was a bit of madness. No, I think what I did is I did exactly that. I asked the team of direct reports to give feedback on my leadership style because I wanted to learn and kind of felt that they could be arguably not. Not that they couldn't ever be honest with me because again, that would make me sad that they couldn't tell me how things were. But I think that it gave them a bigger sense of freedom for them to say, there's not going to be any recompense, you know, nothing's going to come back at me because Susie is not here anymore. So yeah, John, I did. I asked the team for feedback about my leadership style, you know, the good, the bad and the ugly, and they gave it to me.
- [43:29]
A
And what did you take out? Was it what you expected or were there any surprises in that?
- [43:34]
B
I don't think there are any surprises. And I would also say, you know, when you're doing, you know, year end reviews with people, there should never be any real surprises. You should be aware of some of this stuff along the way. So no, I don't think there are any real surprises. There was lots of loveliness, I will say there was lots of loveliness that made me feel really positive about my leadership style and what I can take forward. And of course, you know, as I said, it was an opportunity to learn about which bits to maybe leave behind, you know, on my next iteration of leadership and leading some very talented people.
- [44:10]
A
Now I've seen some of Those people on LinkedIn actually reference you and with lots of love. So it's spilled out into the public domain as well, which is great. So well done you.
- [44:19]
B
Thank you.
- [44:20]
A
So maybe to help the people listening, when we did our session at TikTok, we came up with five Cs of great people management, didn't we?
- [44:28]
B
We did.
- [44:28]
A
So let's Suzo's five Cs, Suzo's five Cs they forever will be known. Exactly. Number one, care. And I thought it's interesting you distinguish between kindness and niceness.
- [44:42]
B
Yeah, why? Because I think that as a leader you have a role to help people advance and grow and be better. And I think a way to do that is to deliver the truth about what's working and what's not working. And I think that if you're always nice, it doesn't mean that you're being kind because you could be slowing people's progression by not telling them actually you need to stop doing this and maybe have you thought about doing that instead and just ignoring that conversation, not having that conversation is even worse. So. So yeah, I think there is a very clear distinction for me about being kind versus being nice, but only for the betterment of others.
- [45:31]
A
That's really important. Something I need to learn. Second one, clarity.
- [45:36]
B
Yeah, I think clarity for me is. Which sounds obvious, doesn't it? But just being really clear about what we're doing, why we're doing, where we're going. And again repeating that so that people aren't confused. Well, I thought, I thought, I thought we were doing that. It's like, no, no, no, let's be really clear what we're doing. Everybody got it. Yeah. And so, so much so that people can repeat and also then enables them to make decisions that are in line with that clarity of direction. I think that is also a real skill, not always easy to do and people don't always necessarily agree with what that direction might be. But I think that repetition and that communication of where we're going and why is really important. So that's how I kind of put that kind of sea of clarity.
- [46:27]
A
I know you did say it's obvious. I think everyone's so busy doing the. Do they forget where they're going? So I think it needs to be reminded. And you also think because in an exec team you have the conversation a lot.
- [46:40]
B
Yes, yes.
- [46:41]
A
That doesn't mean everyone else has had the conversation a lot where they are. And I just think you have to repeat yourselves over and over and over again.
- [46:48]
B
Yeah, I mean so much so you sometimes think you're going a bit mad because you go, haven't I said that before? But actually we would do that in our monthly all hands. It was, we would consistently repeat the direction of travel, what we're doing and if anything had changed, we would call that out. And I say we because that was me and the directs of the marketing function who all had various different responsibilities. But being are we really clear about where we're going so that people, you know at different levels who aren't in that, those kind of more grown up conversations, more serious conversations so that they actually do get it. I don't know, I heard Susie say that or I heard someone from the team say that because you forget, don't
- [47:31]
A
you, in the exec that you have access to all the information but most people below you and then below them don't. So they're often a lot in the dark. So you have to over invest in that. Your third C was calling it early, which I thought was Very wise.
- [47:43]
B
Yeah, I learned this the hard way. Yeah. Calling it early. I think that again, when things aren't going so well, well, and often this is kind of a gut thing as well. Whether it be you witnessing something yourself as the leader or getting kind of that feedback from others and doing something about it, having the conversation early, calling it early because it can grow into something very negative and often toxic that actually if you dealt with it it sooner, you're able to kind of have that positive impact versus people believing that. For example, if it's a behavior thinking, is Suzo tolerating that type of behavior? I'm a bit confused now about what I knew to be true about Suzo and her leadership. I'm having something that's quite inconsistent for her standards that she's kind of set out and how I've seen her operate in other areas. And I, I learned it the hard way by not having a conversation with someone who we subsequently parted company with. And it was the right thing for him. It was a he right thing for him and the right thing for the rest of the team. I just should have called it out much earlier, you know, the endless conversations and me hoping that this individual was going to be the great person that they could be, but very sporadically. So. So yeah, I was trying to be nice, I wasn't trying to be kind. So yeah, that's a good one.
- [49:16]
A
It might link to the fourth one then, which is the cost of comfort.
- [49:21]
B
Yeah, it does link to that one in a way because the cost of comfort is all around yet avoiding those difficult conversations, just not having them. And that comfort gets very uncomfortable very, very quickly. So you're not having the difficult conversation. You're not having the where you have to involve hr. It's time consuming, it's negative. There's nothing positive about it other than the ultimate outcome because it becomes positive for everybody. But that comfort doesn't exist for very long because it's always there and you, you know, you kind of go, it's going to go away, it's going to be fine. It's going to be fine. You know, eternal optimist. You know, most marketeers and don't have to have that difficult conversation, but you do. And that's the cost of comfort is, you know, the impact negative impact it has on others around you and what that does for productivity and how people feel about working in that team.
- [50:21]
A
I think this applies to so many things. Whether it's investment or dieting or whatever. You can choose to be comfortable today and uncomfortable Tomorrow or you can make yourself uncomfortable today and then you'll, you'll have a comfortable tomorrow. It's a trade off.
- [50:34]
B
Yeah. And there is a saying, isn't there? And I'm trying to think when, when you use it best but you know, being comfortable with being uncomfortable, you know, and knowing that that's the way it is. And you know, people talk about, you know, the only constant is change and for some people that's not okay. They're not comfortable with that. So, so there is something in that, you know, bit around, you know, being comfortable with the uncomfortable.
- [50:58]
A
And you have to kind of override your emotions a bit, don't you? Because you feel that discomfort. You know, we all feel that discomfort when things change. We're all risk averse by nature and you have to sort of.
- [51:07]
B
I don't think everyone, I don't think everyone is John. I think, I think there are some people who are happy to be, you know, not particularly pleasant to people. But if that's not part of your value set. Yeah, then yeah, there's a slight, you know, yeah, it's uncomfortable.
- [51:23]
A
Yeah. Lean into it, listen to it and lean into it. Don't you? Rather than sort of.
- [51:27]
B
Well, and there's the danger if you ignore it, you know, deep down your gut is telling you something.
- [51:33]
A
So yeah, beware, you know, you know, don't you? And your final one was constant feedback.
- [51:39]
B
Yeah, again, I think that's critical. I don't think I probably got enough of the constant feedback as a, as a kind of senior leader. But again, I remember, you know, again working very closely with your HR business partner. Nothing should be a shock when it gets to your end of year review, you know, yes, you can have your one to ones weekly. Those are the times to give the constant feedback. And then, and then it's all, in a way, it's all plain sailing because people know what they need to work on, they know what's working and they know what isn't working. Most people have a one to one, that's your moment, a weekly one to one. That's the moment when you should be having those conversations and not again, just avoiding it. So the constant feedback is a great way to pick people up and tell them what a brilliant job that they're doing or it's also an opportunity to just say, you know, we need to do better in this area. And also a way to kind of give feedback about what else is going on in the business. So you take it from the personal, the one to one, to the team and then to the wider department and then the overall business. But yeah, I think constant feedback, I think it's really important. I don't think very many people do it. I think we could get better at that.
- [52:53]
A
It's another overcoming discomfort situation, isn't it? Because feedback can feel awkward.
- [52:58]
B
Well, also it takes time, John, and sometimes we're all rushing. You just think, I'll have that later because that's going to be distracting. So, yeah, you're just delaying an inevitable moment that, you know, just slows things down really. Ultimately, you know, go slow to go fast, you know, have that feedback in the moment. It's important.
- [53:22]
A
Great. Love those five C's, Suzo. They're tremendous. So that will definitely stick in the report. So go and look it up. Well, maybe to round off nine amazing years at Justine. What a rocket ship that is. So if you're giving advice to somebody who's about to become a cmo, so they're kind of taking the journey you've been on, what would your top advice then be?
- [53:47]
B
Quite a few things. No, no limits, by the way. No, I think, look, we've talked about it, it's kind of, without sounding dramatic, it can be quite lonely and it's kind of make sure that you make the effort to build those relationships across the business because they will make the job a bit more fun and also be there at times of need. But I think the real one piece of advice I give is find your voice, use your voice. And that might sound a bit profound, but, you know, that's your job. You know, you need to speak up on behalf of yourself, your beliefs, what, what the team is up to and believe in yourself. Believe in yourself because you haven't got to that position because you're average, you've got to that position because you're really good. And so remind yourself of that.
- [54:41]
A
It's a very good point though. You're absolutely right. You've got there because of your capability, but when you get there, there are very few people reminding you of that. So you've often below that level. You have great performance reviews and your peers go, wow, what a good job. And your boss goes, right, you're ready for the promotion and then you realize you're in a room with people that don't do marketing and don't understand what you do. And actually you've got to remind yourself. And also you're expected to be one of the grown ups.
- [55:05]
B
Yes.
- [55:06]
A
Aren't you? So you're not expected to need a pat on the back and A reminder,
- [55:09]
B
you don't get that.
- [55:11]
A
And also, I can't remember who said it, but shit travels up, right? So in organizations, basically, you're the person that gets all the problems and everything set up. So it can be very easy to lose confidence, I think, you know, you're all like, oh, great, I've got a promotion. I'm now a cmo. And then you're dealing with lots more.
- [55:27]
B
Do you know what? It's so true. And when I talk about feeling very lonely, and that's why the power of the network, you know? You know, so that you get that support and care and kindness from others around you, of course, you'll get that from your team, ideally. But when you're coming to kind of problem solve, you know, you feel quite isolated. You feel, I'm the only person that's ever gone through this. And then you talk to a bunch of your Marketing Academy of fellows and they go, yeah, we go through that all the time.
- [55:54]
A
And so join the Marketing Academy. That's very good.
- [55:56]
B
Exactly. And kind of just like making. Make sure that you are surrounding yourself with people who will lift you up when you need lifting up. So quite a few things in there. If you're going into that CMO role, you know, you're good. Remind yourself of that. Surround yourself with people who, you know, will pick you up when you're feeling, you know, a bit low. Because as I said, it feels a bit isolating. But actually, just believe in yourself. You've got it. You've got this.
- [56:20]
A
It's funny. The small moment, I realized that this was true. So I was in my first probably big CMO job and we're having a team meeting, and they suddenly all burst out laughing. And I'm like, what's funny? And they said, oh, no, it's. It's something on the WhatsApp group. Can I join the WhatsApp group? And they're like, no, we're talking about you. And I'm like, oh, right, yeah.
- [56:44]
B
And thank anyone, any one of my former colleagues at Justy, I know there was a WhatsApp group that I wasn't allowed to be a part of.
- [56:51]
A
I'm like, yeah, yeah, there you go. That's when you know that was my moment.
- [56:55]
B
That's when you go, oh, please.
- [56:56]
A
I'm one of the grownups. I'm the one they moan about.
- [56:58]
B
Yeah, exactly, exactly. But no. Thanks for this, Jon.
- [57:01]
A
It's been fun therapy, I think.
- [57:03]
B
Yeah, a little bit. A little bit, yeah.
- [57:05]
A
All right, Cesar. So we've been talking throughout this episode about the real 4p's of a CMO. And big thanks of course to TikTok for setting this all up for us. Anybody that wants it, check out the show notes. There'll be a link in there and you can download it and you can learn from wonderful people like your goods.
- [57:21]
B
Thanks so much. I will definitely be downloading it. Thanks to TikTok.
- [57:24]
A
Thank you. So I hope you enjoy that episode of Uncensored CMO as much as I enjoyed making it. Now, by the way, I've got a new newsletter, so if you'd like to get my thoughts on the One Thing that I take out from each episode every week, then do subscribe to the One Thing newsletter. I'd really appreciate it. Also, I have another podcast just launched under Uncensored Renegades with the fabulous Corey Marchisoto. She is one of the world's best CMOs. She's an absolute rockstar. Every week we pick one topic, spend 20 minutes trying to fix it. So check out that it's in your feed. Uncensored Renegades. And finally, I want to give a huge thank you to my sponsor, System One. They generously provide so much support for this podcast, it would not happen without them. So big thanks and lots of love to System One. I'll see you next time.