← Uncensored CMO
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- [00:00]
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Foreign.
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Welcome back to the uncensored cmo. Now, we've joined up with our friends at Semrush to bring you a special series spotlighting different aspects of marketing. And in this episode, we're going to be talking all about social with someone who really knows what they're talking about. Zaria Parvez, who is the brains behind the incredible success of Duolingo. We get into all about how she made Duolingo so popular around the world and. And the secrets to going viral. You will love this. Here it is. Welcome to the show, Zara.
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A
Thank you for having me. Stoked to be here.
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B
Well, I got to start with your LinkedIn post, right?
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A
Yeah.
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B
Just. Only just a few weeks ago, announcing your move that just set the world alight.
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A
I did not think it would. I think part of it was like, I feel like changing careers in your 20s is, like, normal. And I was like, oh, this is not normal. And it kind of became its own, like, speculation fest. And I remember when it happened, I was like, did I do the right thing? Like, what did I just do? And I was like, well, guess it's irreversible. So here we are. But, yeah, it was. It was very crazy to see that happen.
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B
I did love your visual, I have to say, you know, sat on dead Duo. I mean, that was.
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A
Yeah, that was actually one of our creative content coordinators. A duo created that for me, and she was my intern. And when she first started, I really wanted, like, an illustrator to be part of our content team. I was like, we need a creative. We need someone who can, like, draw a design because it's so core to do his brand.
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B
And.
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A
And then when I left, she, like, made that for me and I was like. And we never got to work full time together, but I was like, you're always in my heart. And now she's always on LinkedIn.
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B
Oh, that's so brilliant.
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A
Yeah.
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B
How did you feel? Because, I mean, you're so. Well, you're so closely associated and it's been a big, big part of your story. What inspired the move at this point to do it?
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A
Yeah, I think the biggest thing really came from this space of, like, if I was to create another viral campaign or another viral video for Duo, I don't think it was progressing me. Like, I can say our whole strategy with my eyes closed. I could probably figure out a viral video for Duo very fast. And it became this space of, like, I'm 27, I should be expanding and growing, and I shouldn't feel like I tapped out in My career this early. So it really came from like, I just want to do something completely different. So I was like, I don't want a mascot. I want to be in a completely new vertical and just like to try what it would feel like to have like a huge in house social content team. And like, what does that look like if you have like the respect of a title and the resources and then also like the good rapport with the people. So that's kind of where it came from. But it was kind of like a rip off the Band Aid situation. I was like, I just got to do it.
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B
I love that. I mean, having met Kofi in the Doordash team, I can really see the fit, actually.
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A
He's a king.
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B
They know what they're doing. They really push the creative work and they've got huge ambitions and a very creative organization. So it makes a lot of sense. You talked about being 27. You started at Duo when you were 22, didn't you?
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A
Yeah.
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B
How has it been having such a. I mean, most people would kind of like to peak in their careers with the kind of success you've had. How have you kind of coped with that dramatic rise?
- [02:58]
A
I think it's like pros and cons, as everything has, I think to do that so young was like, made it for a fascinating story and people are always like, whoa, like, how did that happen? But I think there was also like the inevitable uphill battle of being like young in a workplace and having that much impact of like, I mean, like, when I started duolingo, I did not negotiate my salary. I didn't know you were even supposed to do that. Like, it's like these small things that you're like, wait, wait, you, you could do that. So I think now I'm going in this space of like, okay, I had all this happen. Might have been the peak of my career, I don't know. But like, at least now I have these lessons that taking forward, like, A, how do I want to treat junior talent? B, like, what do I hope for my future of? Like, what do I actually want and care about in life and how do I sustain that? And I think social is a weird space because, like, actually the most junior people can be the most impactful because, like young people are at the pulse of culture and that's needed for social. So it just completely flipped the script. And I think I was one of the first very out there, vocal, open people for people to like, watch that happen. So I think it came with the pros and Cons of it all. But like, in the end I'm like, I'm still processing it. I'm like, holy shit, those past five years were crazy.
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B
And I think if I can say, you also speak for a lot of social media managers and people in that area, don't you? And they look to you for inspiration and guidance. I mean, talk about salary. It was insane. Even the salary of your replacement was.
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A
I was not making that much money. I was like, I was gonna ask you a question. No, exactly. But yeah, that, like, that just shows. And I think obviously when Duo first started, like the social team was not that big and like, obviously that salary was not associated with it. But now it's like, oh, this is the impact of social first. That if you do it correct and you do it well, it can actually have business impact on a brand where now a brand really values that role. So that conversation also in five years completely has flipped too.
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B
And that I think is what everyone looks at as being so impressive because I think when you started maybe you had quarter million or three quarter million kind of followers up to 17 million. I mean, 17 million would be like an A list celebrity, right?
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Yeah, Duo is.
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B
He is yeah much an alias celebrity. What were the big moments in that journey that really kind of, oh, let's.
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A
Go down memory lane. So I think the first and foremost was like, I was given creative freedom from the get go and I think I didn't even know permission was something you had to ask for. I didn't know you had to like get approval for posts to go out. So coming in with that, like, I think almost naive mindset helped me because I wasn't thinking as an advertiser, I was just thinking as like a content creator. And that was kind of, I think, serendipitous of like just someone young coming in and not really knowing. And then I was like, hey, I have this idea for this piece of content. Can we make it happen? And my boss at the time was like, yeah, absolutely, like, why not? And then we filmed it and it did really well. And I think what's crazy is like the, the immediate success of it. I think you don't expect that to happen. You expect it to be like, most brands have a slow burn kind of growing up to it. So when that started taking off, then all of a sudden it was like, oh, this is like a global sensation. And so I remember the first time is like I was filming with this guy named Mark who was usually in the suit. Great guy, still at Duolingo. Awesome. Still in the suit. And we were filming, and we, like, posted this video. We were, like, laughing. He was, like, twerking on a conference room table. It was like, now it's like, so we expect that from brands before. Like, that was never done before. And we're like, I can't believe we just did this. Lol. And then all of a sudden, like, NBC is calling, and I'm like, oh, shit. And so, like, yes, my boss is getting all this pr, and I'm like, oh, I'm fucked. Like, I messed up. But it was all like, what is this? This is amazing. Like, what is going on in, like, Pittsburgh? And I think that transition moment where me and Mark are, like, slacking, like, holy shit. Like, everyone's, like, catching up to us, and they know what we're doing, and to see that actually be resonant and people to be impressed with it. And so I think that was a big moment. I think Duo being able to walk the red carpet at the Barbie premiere was crazy. Cause there was just, like, an organic mention. And then, of course, like, my last hurrah, my final goodbye was killing the bird. Which is kind of poetic in a weird way. But I think that was also, like, this was a culmination of everything I worked for for five years to, like, see just how much people cared when this fake bird died.
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B
How much of kind of going viral. I mean, everyone wants to go viral. How much of it is. Is planned and how much of it is just being responsive and seeing what happens.
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A
So I think it evolved. Like, I think five years ago and duo first started going viral was, like, hopping on trends and doing it quickly. Now it's kind of gotten to a space where so many brands do that that it's a little more saturated. So I think timeliness did matter five years ago. I think now actually creative resonance matters more. Like, how creative can you be? So I think it's definite. I feel like we're in a transition area. Area of social for sure. And so I wouldn't say being timely as much matters anymore, but back then, I think that's totally what, like, led Duo to their success.
- [07:42]
B
Oh, that's so interesting. Why? Why, why? Why do you not think about being as timely? Because I'd have assumed that being timely is kind of.
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A
I think every brand or most brand with good senses has learned that they need to be social first. They need fast approval, and they need to, like, have a little bit of shock factor in it. So now, if every brand is doing it, is it really resonant? And so now I think brands who are choosing original creative, that's not really trend dependent is now really working. Because all of a sudden if you have like 30 brands doing one trend, we're now all in favor of the trend, not in favor of like the brand. And so that narrative is shifting and people are catching on too. Like, it's not cool anymore for every brand. Like, you're starting to see, like the silence brand movement now move to TikTok, which used to be so rampant on like Twitter.
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B
I see everyone's like jumping on the same trends at the same time, doing the same things, and you don't stand out anymore. That makes a lot of sense now. One thing I'm fascinated about with Jew is, is obviously himself, right, as a character. Because it's not that common these days, is it, to have a brand character? It's a very kind of old school thing to have a brand mascot. And how important is Duo and also the personality that you gave Duo as well to become the celebrity that it's become.
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A
I mean, so crucial. Like, I'm now working right at a brand without a mascot and I'm like, I miss the good old days, like when you could just throw a mascot in it. And it was just like, it's such an easy, identifiable, like, brand thing that you don't have to like, find, like, how do I make this relevant to the brand? Like, just throw the mascot in there. Now it's relevant. But I think what really, like, reignited him was like, shaping Duo in the world of TikTok because, like, it didn't really, like, Wendy's was on Twitter and you saw that personality. But at the time there was no Duo that really existed on TikTok. So we kind of took that injection of like the chronically online niche, shareable fandom stuff and injected that into him. And then he became who he was. And even when I left, like, it was a bit of an identity crisis. Like, I'm so used to being like, I know a duo would say, like, even now, sometimes I'm like, damn, I wish I could send this idea over to Duolingo. Like, I got these ideas and it's like letting go of that a bit because, like, that was me. Like, that was my personality. I was community managing. I was injecting Zarya into this bird and now it's this weird meta thing where, like, am I the bird is the bird? Me is a bird himself. So that evolution has been interesting.
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B
It's so fascinating.
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A
Yeah, it's kind of problematic. I'm like let go.
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B
Who's taken over and like be the same as you. We're going to see.
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A
We'll see. Yeah, I think they're still hiring for head of social, so we'll see what's going to happen. But I hope they do something different too, right? Like what's the next era? And I'm so curious to like watch that.
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B
That's really fascinating. I did some research actually at system one with TikTok and we, we were looking at how kind of brands gain traction on the platform and obviously entertainment is critical, but being recognizable is also so, so important. And what I think characters do brilliantly is Duo can turn up anywhere and immediately you know what to expect, but also you recognize who it is. And when you're competing with so many other brands, I think being recognized as who you are is a really big part of it.
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A
It also like fit magically and serendipitously into the lore of Duo. Like the annoying push notification. All of this stuff existed right before TikTok and for I existed. And so it almost felt like that's the brand connection versus like a random mascot just doing random annoying things. So it was a very lucky situation of like this was the brand identity they already built and it actually happened to work perfectly for TikTok. So let's like bring it over.
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B
Now. You casually dropped in earlier, you killed Duo, right? So now this shouldn't be in the playbook, should it?
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A
No, I guess the thing you've spent.
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B
Like five years building and creating. What was the thought behind killing Duo? Why did you do it?
- [11:14]
A
I think it's a little bit twofold. So one, I believe firmly that social first insights should impact the product and like the brand second figure how to move fast within the product. They're going to stand apart and like be that 100 year brand. So that was an ambition I had at Duo was like, how do we just marry product and social just a little bit more? And so at the time we do these things called app icon changes, where they would change the app icon. And one of the product managers was one of my really good friends and he was like, yeah, we're choosing between these two options to change your app icon for like a week. What do you think will resonate on social? And I was like, oh definitely, like the Duo with the X's on the eyes. Like that's like, that's a story. And he's like, great. Anyways, we're gonna sell a B test this, so your opinion doesn't really matter yet. And I'm like, that was such a product person response. But it was kind of like, okay, whatever. So he goes AB tests. And he's like, the two options came out the same. So we'll choose the social narrative. So then where he's like, okay, let's choose like the dead Duo. And then we were in a brainstorm. We're like, our initial plan was like, let's just make two or three pieces of content around Duo dying. I did not think that the world would respond the way they would respond. Like, I wish I could be like, I knew it, it was going to happen. I planned it, I did it. And that's the magic of social. So we had three posts. One was announcing his death, one was a funeral, and the last one was just like resurrecting like that. Like, that was it. And when we posted and we saw how much people cared and reacted, we're like, we need to drag this on. Like, we need to make this into a whole thing. So it ended up going from like three posts to almost eight posts across two weeks. And we kept building the storyline with the community. So, like, people are like, what? What if this happened? What if, what about the other characters? Are they alive? How does that look? And so we kept kind of iterating and spoofing on the nose almost. And like, what was great is like, we had enough buy in that nobody cared what we did. They were like, just don't do anything inappropriate. But they're like, go for it, do it. Like, I wasn't waiting for people to approve this. And I think that speaks to the spirit of like Duolingo's experimentation and how Social survived. Like, it wasn't a thing. That was like, we always had to get buy in approval for. It was just push it, go for it. And yeah, it was like one of my favorite campaigns today. And just to see the whole world co create with you and care so deeply, I was like, damn. I like injected this personality that people care about.
- [13:27]
B
Now, am I right in saying you sent his ashes to Dua Lipa?
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A
Yes.
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B
Did that actually happen?
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A
Yes, that did happen. She didn't respond, but we did get a custom urn and sent matcha powder to Dua Lipa because that was, that was also the big thing where like when I first started our TikTok, I built this lore about Duo being obsessed with Dua Lipa just because her name sounded similar. She never acknowledged our existence until he died. And I remember getting a slack at like 4:30 in the morning from our CEO being like, do a fucking Lipa. And I was like, no way. And I think that, for me was, like, peak. But, yes, we did send her Matcha powder.
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B
That's incredible. Now, as you tell the stories, the culture must have mattered quite a lot to be able to do the kind of stuff you do. What would you say are the kind of cultural, kind of conditions that make a successful kind of social campaign?
- [14:15]
A
I think the biggest thing is, like, not being scared of negative sentiment. I think what goes viral, what breaks the Internet, what does well, will always come with about 15% of negative sentiment. And I think once you accept that, you are giving yourself more freedom to run. And it's also dependence of, like, what your brand is okay with. Like, what negative sentiment are you okay with? What are you not okay with? When do you want to draw the line for that? Personally, if I get negative sentiment from, like, other marketers, I'm like, we're winning. Like, that's generally. Because generally, like, marketers actually don't like duolingo that much. And that's what I learned with, like, they have a lot of problems with it. But, like, if the common consumer and our common user is okay with it, then I'm okay with it. So that's actually like, a guardrail for success. I'm like, if other marketers are shitting on me, I think we're doing okay.
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B
I think you're right. There's a very bad judge of marketing.
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A
Yeah.
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B
There's a study the other day where I think it's Ehrenberg Bass Institute asked marketers to rate their own brands, distinctive assets. So it'd be like, you rating Jew. Right. And then they asked the consumers, and they were so different. Basic marketers think that all their things are just obviously, you know, everyone knows and has heard of them. Most people haven't done it, you know, so there's a big difference between what you, as a master think and what for sure.
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A
And I feel like I'm very lucky to have this perspective where, like, no, no. But nobody in my, like, close friend group are marketers. My husband's actually a doctor. So very different. Like, completely different worlds. And, like, I always joke, like, whenever we watch, like, the super bowl or a big thing, like, the way that I watch him mute the ads and go to the bathroom, like, that's what I am to him. I was like, our marketing moments are bathroom breaks for the average Joe. And I was like, that helps me, like, keep in perspective of, like, how much does this marketing person's opinion of what we're doing actually matter in the grand scheme of everything.
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B
It shows why creativity is so important, doesn't it? You know, you've got to earn the right.
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A
Exactly, exactly.
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B
I wanted to quote, if I can, James Kaczynski. I know you guys work together very well. He left a lovely endorsement for you on LinkedIn. But he said this. He said, Zara's ability to take trends and turn them into something the Internet needs and wants to talk about is a real skill. Unpack that a little bit more about how you kind of take the trends and how you turn them into kind of content.
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A
I think the biggest thing is like, I feel like every brand has three or four human truths and seeing like, what are those general categories of truths that I could inject trends into. So like for duo is like, language learning is hard. So we make it fun. But like, that's kind of our North Star. But the common truths are like, people don't like learning a language. It's really difficult. People enjoy like using language to like shit talk, for example. So like, these were like kind of areas that I knew if I could find trends within and use those truths, like that content would really take off. Off. And I think it's pretty relatively easy to like, shape trends into moments for your brand based off of like, once you know what, like your parameters and I think goals are. So that made it easy, I think, like with DoorDash now, like, this is a new challenge where I'm like, okay, what are like the truths about food delivery and how do we lean into the meme there? And like one of like, the truths are like, it's a guilty pleasure and it's like, okay, how do I, how do I push DoorDash to be okay with being like, this may seem negative. How do we make it positive? And then in general, like, we're all storytellers and I think content creation is no different. Like, people love to have the lover story arc, they love to have a villain. Like people on social love a villain. So like Google Translates was duos. We're like, who's doordash's villain? And so these common parts of like the heroic journey and like these story things are still things you can integrate. So I kind of look for that when I'm building off of like a trend.
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B
Yeah, yeah, makes sense. How do you actually, how do you differentiate between kind of short term and long term thinking? Because there's some research came out recently from the ipa, the uk, the uk that actually creators are really, really effective at brand building. Not necessarily at sales activation. In fact they act much more like a TV campaign in terms of they, you know, that they have long lasting effects, that kind of thing. So how, how do you sort of like. Because obviously social you, you imagine it's be reactive. I'm there, I'm on it.
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Yeah.
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B
How do you kind of think in the long term? So I like how you said, you know how you're already thinking about how doordash is going to, you know, have a lover story or who's the enemy or what's the kind of truth in you know, that's there. So how do you kind of think long term as well as. Yeah, short term.
- [18:23]
A
My favorite like campaign like structure framework actually came from Wimbledon social team and they disclose this in like an interview with Rachel Carton who does like Lincoln bio, great social gal. And they talk about the different frameworks of like and they call it bonfire or Sorry. Yeah, bonfire, campfire and then firework. And it kind of helps social people think obviously in the day to day. So like bonfire is like that can't like that classic like day to day hum and drum things that are going on while like firework is like this is the one organic moment in this quarter where we like want to break the Internet. And obviously that's an ambitious goal. But like dead duo kind of came from that where like we have our day to day content, we have all this things going on. But what is that once a quarter in this three month timeframe that we want to create our own original piece of work and like see what we can do with the world. And I think that of like, okay, here's the scrappy day to day to the long term balancing that has allowed me to figure out like these are the different goals goals. These are the different budget tiers for this. This is how I'm gonna get buy in for certain things. Like if it's a day to day piece of content, I'm way more okay taking a risk because I can take it down versus like a big firework moment with like Cardi B. Because if I mess up, I probably can't take that down. And that would really suck to take something down that I just spent millions of dollars on. So like those are kind of how I'm differentiating of like also getting buy in but like thinking on that short term and long term.
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B
Yeah, I mean talk about getting in buy in. I can imagine it's quite different for you today compared to when you were, you were the one person kind of working on, you know.
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A
Yeah.
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B
How do you do it when you've got a team, you've got stakeholders, you know there's more going on? How do you sort of manage the. Yeah, the scaling up part of it.
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A
That was like. That was the thing. I was like, number one, two and three scared about joining anywhere. I was like, listen, like, who I am and the work I do will not work at a place that doesn't allow me to run with it. And I actually remember in an interview with Kofi, I was like, listen. I was like, these. This is what is needs.
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B
Here's my ride.
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A
I know exactly this is what needs to be true for this to work. And I think where I was really lucky is like, I set those expectations in early with him. And like, even our first one on one, he's like, my job for you is to make sure you have the ramp to run. And he's like, you tell me when things are getting in the way. And I think a lot of it honestly comes just from a lack of understanding. Like, we say social first a lot. What does that mean? Like, where. Give me a definition. Like, no one has really defined it. We haven't contextualized how good organic social is in the sense of, like, if it's not meant to give us, like, conversions, what is it meant to give us then? What does an impression mean? What does share of voice mean? So I think being able to contextualize that data has been crucial and I've done that. And now it's like also having. Setting those expectations. Like, they know who I am, what I'm gonna do. And I also always tell my team, I'm like. Cause I actually. It's funny seeing their evolution too. In the past three months, they're like, we've never taken risks like this before. And I was like, I. Like, I will take the fall. Like, you push it, do the best creative work possible. I will take the fall for it. And I think that just comes, I think also maybe from place of privilege, of being okay with taking the fall. But I've noticed takes a lot to fire somebody. So that is my. That is my. What's the worst they're going to do, fire me? It's a good mindset to come in because I feel like it also has a level of trust. Like, we have trust with each other and I try to establish that trust. Like, at the end of the day, like, I want the brand to be successful and do well just as much as you do, but it's probably just going to look a little bit different.
- [21:37]
B
There's a couple of things I sort of pick up on there in that last bit we just chatted about. And I think when people are looking for a new job, they don't think enough about who their boss is going to be. Because, yes, I think your boss has such an important, you know, impact on your career. And the fact that Kofi's giving you that freedom and he wants you to do what you've done, you know, give you that ramp is so important. And I love, I love your attitude to risk as well in the. What's the worst they can do? Because so much of what holds us back is ourselves, isn't how we worry about what goes on.
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A
Yeah. Like even I remember the first early days at Duo. Like, it's like, hey, we're gonna like type in all lower caps. And they were like, we are a language learning company if we do not use proper punctuation. I'm like, what are you gonna do? And I remember posting it and they were like, my boss at the time, love her, very risk averse. She was like, zaria. I was like, it's fine. I was like, it'll be okay. And I, I think, yeah, the culture and the team obviously makes the biggest difference. Like I'm able to say this even openly because I know they'd just be like rolling their eyes and be like, yeah, but like some bosses do suck and they don't allow that freedom. And I think as a social person, like, my advice is like, get out. Like if you can get out of that situation, find a place. Even if it's a small unknown brand that has more freedom. Like creative freedom is more. Was more important to me than like salary, title, all of that. I was like, I need that freedom to fly, otherwise I will be like stuck if I don't have it.
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B
I think the other thing that comes out in a culture is what happens when things go wrong.
- [22:58]
A
Yes.
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B
That reveals everything, doesn't it? Like, how do people react? Have you be, have you had any tough moments where things haven't gone as far?
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A
Oh, of course I remember. So when I first started at Duo, we there was like the Amber Heard and Johnny Depp trial was going on and at the time we were just commenting and I remember, I think I commented, like, does Amber watch TikTok? And that got like so skewed. Like people were like, duolingo supports, blah, blah, blah, Zaria doing this. And they found me and doxed me and all of this stuff. And I remember being stressed. Like at that point I was like, it's been a good run. They're gonna fire me now. I was like, this is it. Now what are they gonna do? They're gonna fire me. And I remember our CMO at the time, Cammie, she came up to me and she's like. And I still use this quote everywhere. She's like, you do not know where the line is unless you cross it. And that was it. And I was like, yeah, what she said. But, like, exactly. And she was like, I'm glad you made this mistake.
- [23:50]
B
Now we know that's on the bottom of every email now.
- [23:52]
A
Yeah, literally. Exactly. And I like. And I think it's such a good mantra because it's like, because we're so scared of even crossing the line, even though 1% of the time that it happens, we just stop and don't do anything. And she was like, having this brand faux pas, this mess was, like, actually worth the 99% of the time it worked out. But again, that comes back to, like, the leadership around me. Like, she could have been like, you're out. Like, that's it. And I think that's something I continue to, like, look for and also be like, how do I be for now, my team, if they mess up, to, like, emulate Cammie and not freak out? And like, how do I get contain crash outs and make sure that, like, at the end of the day, it's a brand. And I think the good part is, is like, the Internet moves on, things happen and people find another brand to hate on. So I try to keep myself grounded in that.
- [24:35]
B
Yeah. Remind people what everyone else is going.
- [24:37]
A
Yeah, exactly.
- [24:38]
B
Could have been them, you know, but you're right, like, we. We fear the 1% that goes wrong, and therefore we don't push ourselves on the 99 other things that we should do.
- [24:46]
A
I think 100%.
- [24:47]
B
Yeah. Now, one thing that stands out for me and your story is the fact that you've. You've built a personal brand, haven't you? Like, almost alongside. And we've all followed your story and you've been very generous about sharing your journey through the newsletter and through LinkedIn. How important is it to kind of have a personal brand running alongside?
- [25:04]
A
Oh, everything. I think when I started it, I honestly, like, made that LinkedIn post for, like, my college university professors. When I first was like, I'm sorry, and I'm behind this, like, I didn't think it was going to become a personal brand. And then I think, like, that first post got like 50,000 likes, and I was like, this was just for My college professor, like, why is everyone so invested? And then from there, like to this day I'm like, that post was the best gift I could have given myself now because at the end of the day, we all work for corporations, we all work for brands. And the only thing that you can really genuinely have that is fully yours is what you put out in the world. And so, I mean, it's unlocked opportunities, it's allowed me to be here, it's allowed me to just meet new people and always know I have that to fall back onto. And I've always loved writing. I've actually wanted to be a copywriter, journalist in another life. I was like, that is where I think my creativity shines. And this was something people were interested in that I could write about. And like people were engaging with it. And I think the brand thing also worked out. Cause it was one of the first times that like a brand also allowed someone to take credit for their work, which was very unique to duolingo culture. Like, it was not like, okay, like coordinator, like, you be quiet now. The boss is gonna go. Like our CMO at the time, and even my boss at the time was like, you did the work, girl. Like, you're gonna be in this interview. And I remember like shitting bricks. It was like the, it was with the Rolling Stone. I was like, I don't wanna do this, I don't wanna do this. And my, no, you're going to go do it and you're going to go do it well. And like, we have your back. Go do it. And I think like having people in your corner encouraging you kind of also gives you like that 2% confidence every single time. So then I was like, wait, I can write. I do have thoughts to bring. I can be strategic. So it's all about the advocates and the people around you that allow you to build that brand.
- [26:45]
B
I think so many businesses don't realize it's a win win, isn't it? Because it's a win for you personally, as in you build your own profile and opportunity arises. But, but it reflects so well on the company and you're a walking advert for the company as well. And yeah, and in terms of it also attracting talent into the business because loads of people will be watching you going, I want to do what she's doing.
- [27:03]
A
Absolutely. And it's like that's. And I think that's what's so cool about duolingo at the time is like they understood that, like it's almost like they were always thinking, 10 steps ahead. And I'm like, I don't know how y' all did it and how leadership did it, but that's what their environment was. And I think it was also this weird space where, like, I became Zarya from Duolingo and I'm like, wait, I'm sorry, as a human. And what do I mean outside of that, which is also, like, kind of, I guess the cons of it of, like, you become so in this one zone, this one bubble that you start to be like, I want to be known for more hopefully of doing good in the world than, like a mascot suit, you know? And, like, I think that's where I'm at. Like, this is my attempt of, like, risk taking on myself now. Like, okay, I walked the walk on her brand. I'm going to take a risk now on Zarya, and I'm going to risk and take a bet on my creativity and be like, what can I do beyond this world, in this realm? And. And you're catching me in the middle of this risk. And it's like, been a couple months and it's intimidating, but I feel like every day I'm like, wow, I'm actually learning something totally new. And that's all thanks to the encouragement of building this brand and what that gave me.
- [28:03]
B
Well, I mean, sticking on that theme a bit, what do you hope happens next for you? What would you like to look back on and go, do you know what? This was the next chapter and how it unfolded.
- [28:13]
A
I really wanted to walk the walk of bringing a traditional brand social first, because I feel like that was something. And feedback I kept receiving was like, well, you were at Duolingo, like, you started from zero to one. Like, you didn't have all these guardrails. So if I'm able to make doordash a social first place, I'm like, fuck, yeah. Like, I did it. Like, I took a place. I did something before, and now I'm getting them to do something totally different and it's working. Then I'm like, that is. That is a narrative I hope to get out of this job.
- [28:41]
B
Yeah, that's very, very cool. I can see that happening as well. They're the kind of business and doing the take.
- [28:46]
A
Exactly. And like, they want. They want, they want to do it. So that makes it easier to do.
- [28:49]
B
It helps, isn't it?
- [28:51]
A
Exactly.
- [28:51]
B
Working with them rather than get some. Now we must mention the A word. I'm sorry to drop some concept. We've gone however long we've gone without talking about it, but you know, AI is transforming everything, right, all over the place, isn't it? How is it changing, you know, how we do social in terms of whether it's production or how we, you know, spot trends or anything like that? How are you seeing it?
- [29:11]
A
It's like, it's a really weird space to be a social person with AI because, like, on one end you have, like, investors being like, AI will help with production and, like, it's going to make things faster. And then you have consumers being like, don't you dare touch AI. And you're just kind of that middleman, like, hey, guys. So the way that I've been approaching it is like, I want AI to do all this stuff that I never liked about marketing. So, like, it's down to, like, you know, billing, all the way down to, like, grabbing insights, grabbing these reports, contextualizing what we're doing versus, like, the actual creative production aspect of it. So that's where we are right now. We're like, okay, like, maybe there's a way to, like, punch up what we're doing. I think one of my favorite interviews recently, and I also mentioned this in the keynote earlier today, was like, with David Droga, and he was like, AI is going to replace the average. It'll get you from like, 0 to 6. But the people who are 6 to 10, like, it's not going to replace that. And I think for me, that is very like, oh, so you can still be an expert at your craft, still be an expert at what you do, but now you can focus more on that creative work versus, like, focusing on, like, all the nitty gritty. So that's how my team's approaching it and how we're approaching it. I. I do have belief that I think in the next two years, like, the video production scale of it is going to become way better than it is today, and it's going to become harder and harder for us to differentiate. And there will be a time, I'm convinced, where consumers will be okay with these AI feeds and this AI content, but we're not there yet, and that's okay.
- [30:32]
B
And also what I noticed you do, so what, your copywriting is just beautiful as well. And that sort of originality of thoughts, you don't really see in AI, do you?
- [30:42]
A
No.
- [30:42]
B
And the creative leaps that you make that, you know, who would have thought of sending, you know, ashes to dua Lipa? I mean, I don't think AI is going to come up with that.
- [30:50]
A
Exactly. And it's like, but you know what? AI can do make the shipping label figure out duo's address. Like, do all this stuff that you just don't want to do. And it's like, okay, now onto the next idea.
- [30:59]
B
I was wondering, though, it's actually just in what I do, really, whether AI could monitor trends for me and alert me to things that are happening in culture and almost be my eyes and ears and sort of almost give you that information, real time information.
- [31:11]
A
If I could do that, I would love that. Because then you're like, you don't have to be chronically online anymore. Like, it allows space for also social people to like, breathe and live a life. So, yeah, if you find the tool for that, let me know.
- [31:22]
B
I think we should do that now. I have one question here from Sam, who's my social media manager. Was like dying. There you go. Big love to Sam. Actually. He's a amazing, by the way, and a super fan of yours, but he just said, if you were running a podcast, what kind of, what kind of thing would you do?
- [31:39]
A
I mean, obviously, like podcast clips I think are huge, and you guys know that as well. I actually feel like, call her daddy. I'm sure you guys have heard. But I feel like Alex Cooper does a great job of like keeping people engaged and I think she finds a really good way of like, obviously she has like these hosts and like, sorry, not host. She has guests who are very famous, but I think her ways of like, staying on the trend and understanding the fandom lore of each person and leaning into that is really smart. So, yeah, find the lore behind each guest and then make content with them as additional to your podcast clips.
- [32:09]
B
The lore behind each guest. Oh, that's nice. I like that.
- [32:11]
A
Exactly.
- [32:12]
B
Taking that one.
- [32:12]
A
What's the tea?
- [32:13]
B
Where's Sam? You listening now? We talked a lot about kind of creating content, social, being on top of things. There's a flip side to that, of course, isn't there? In the. I mean, how do you cope? I'm just wondering, how do you cope with.
- [32:27]
A
I'm unwell.
- [32:27]
B
Hey, how do you stay on top of it all? You're creating lots of content, you're leading others. You know, you're in demanding businesses doing lots of things. It's very hard, isn't it? How do you switch off, get the balance right with all this kind of thing?
- [32:38]
A
Yeah, I think the biggest thing is like, I work a 9 to 5 to like sustain myself, but I. I've never seen work as my end all, be all. And I stay very true to that. And I always tell my team that I'm like, if you're still on at 5:00pm, like, I think there's beauty and like, finding other things in life that bring you joy. And like, work will never be the thing that will give me join sustenance, I guess, which is like. And I'm very intentional about that. Like, even part of the reason why I left duo was like, it was getting too big. I was like, I feel like everywhere I go and these, like, certain niches, people are like, zaria from Duolingo, what are you gonna do next? And I'm like, I just want to be sorry from Doordash, like, who is she? And I think that was like, part of it is like, figuring out, like, what is actually bringing me joy, what is actually bringing fulfillment and happiness. And if it's not work, which it hopefully shouldn't be, then, like, how do I kind of prioritize my time into that? So, like, there's still moments where, like, I love writing on LinkedIn, but if I'm like, yeah, I don't. Like, if I didn't write for three weeks, that's okay too. So I think finding that balance, giving.
- [33:39]
B
You permission not to do.
- [33:40]
A
Exactly.
- [33:41]
B
I like how you said about energy as well, because I'm convinced that you need to go where the energy is and, and get your feed should be what gives you energy rather than what takes energy. It's very easy for feeds to kind of depress you and distract you 100% actually. You know, create, curate your feed to give you inspiration.
- [33:57]
A
Go to Substack. I was like, Substack is so. It's so peaceful and I feel like the brands are going to come and it's not going to be peaceful shortly.
- [34:04]
B
But you're in early now. You're in that. You're in the window.
- [34:06]
A
Exactly.
- [34:07]
B
Commercial.
- [34:07]
A
Exactly. But right now I feel like seeing long form content is really thrilling and exciting for me now. Like, I actually find myself steering away from, like, short form. So, like, long form YouTube, things like substack have also been very creatively fulfilling and also like building stuff with your hands. Big Lego girl love to build Legos. And I think it's like, I'm still creative, but I'm not staring at a screen all the time.
- [34:29]
B
There's probably a reaction, isn't there? We're all, we're all wanting to be in real life. We're wanting to do craft. We're wanting to do things that, you know, that you know are the opposite of our online selves. You write actually about long form doing this podcast been amazing. People will listen to 45 minutes, 100% all the way through, undistracted. It's incredible. But I think people yearn that sort of more intimate, longer forms of talking as well. So I want one thing that I did make me smile that you said the other day. It might have been on your substack, actually. You said the best marketers hate marketing. I think the best marketers aren't even marketers.
- [35:03]
A
Yeah.
- [35:03]
B
Honestly, the people I meet that are entrepreneurs, founders, and you go, hey, man, that marketing you did was amazing. Go what? Marketing?
- [35:09]
A
Yeah, exactly. Yeah. I mean, I don't even consider myself the best marketer, to be clear. I just feel like there's moments where, like, we get so caught in the weeds of, like, if this is looking this way, but if her face looks this. But if like. Like these little details where I'm like, nobody gives a crap. Like, we are. If we are lucky, we are 5% of somebody's. Not even 5% is a big number. Maybe five seconds of somebody's day. And I think the more we treat ourselves like that, and it's not to, like, look down at our work, but, like, also, like, a doctor is probably 5% of your day. Like, it's not the main show. And I think the more that we realize that, the more allowance we give ourselves to, like, take bigger swings, take creative risks. Like, even if a brand is getting canceled, you probably see one or two videos about it and scroll on. Like, for us, it's everything because that's our brand. But, like, for most people, they're like, damn, did you see that? Anyways, and I think having that reality check allows us to be more creative and better, because now we're just putting out good work in the world versus, like, is this good marketing?
- [36:05]
B
Yeah. This is why Ryan Reynolds is one of my favorite marketers.
- [36:08]
A
Yeah.
- [36:08]
B
You wouldn't call himself marketer, but he turns. He buys a brand, he'll do a video overnight. He'll entertain people, he'll make it. He'll make everyone watch it, and it's just brilliant.
- [36:17]
A
Exactly.
- [36:18]
B
Acts a bit more like he does 100%.
- [36:20]
A
I mean, his astronomer thing, Perfection. It was great.
- [36:23]
B
I know. Exactly. So we learn a lot from that. Just to end on you just on your keynote speech at Semrush.
- [36:28]
A
Yes.
- [36:28]
B
If you could pick one thing from your speech that you want everyone to learn from, what would it be?
- [36:33]
A
Find time for boredom in your day. I think that was a really, like, reintroduce boredom into your life, because I think in the stillness of life and the things like go on a walk without a podcast. And I think the silence of life almost becomes space. And I think at first it feels very uncomfortable because we're so used to being like inundated with stuff all the time. But once you become comfortable in that stillness, it just becomes space to grow and experiment. And so I'm very big about reintroducing boredom.
- [37:00]
B
That is such good advice. I love that. It's almost like your brain works everything out, doesn't it? In silence, isn't it?
- [37:06]
A
Exactly.
- [37:07]
B
And you don't give your mind a chance to sort of.
- [37:10]
A
And I feel like we sometimes feel ashamed of being bored or feel ashamed of not productively using our time. But I think it's okay to be not productive all the time.
- [37:17]
B
There you go. What brilliant advice to end on. Sara, thank you so much.
- [37:20]
A
Thank you for having me.
- [37:20]
B
So lovely to talk. I'm really appreciate you telling us.
- [37:22]
A
Thank you as well.
- [37:23]
B
Congratulations on the day.
- [37:24]
A
Thank you. Crazy role as well.
- [37:26]
B
Excited to see what happens next.
- [37:27]
A
We'll see.
- [37:28]
B
It's coming.
- [37:29]
A
Exactly.
- [37:29]
B
Thank you so much.
- [37:30]
A
Cool. Thanks.
- [37:31]
B
Thank you very much for listening or watching Uncensored cmo. I hope you enjoyed that. If you did, please do hit the subscribe button wherever you get your podcast. If you're watching, hit subscribe there as well. I'd also love to get a review. Reviews make a big difference on other people discovering the show. So please do leave a review wherever you get your podcast. If you want to contact me, you can do. I'm over on Xensored CMO or on LinkedIn where I'm under my own name, John Evans. Thanks for listening and watching. I'll see you next time.