John Evans (2:56)

Well, 230 guests in total. Probably 100 CMOs.

Corey Marchisotto (2:59)

So I'm like, I don't know, maybe there's 1% of people who will guess that it's Cory Marchisotto. 44% of people guess that it was me. Isn't that bananas? I think that's super bonkers. And, you know, some of what came up from a sentiment perspective was overwhelmingly positive. We're like, that's a good signal. We like signals. High trust and anticipation. People love the idea that we were going to do a shorter length so that they could listen to it on their commute. I'm getting head nods. So people are super appreciating that. We say 20 minutes. Ish. You'll see why when it launches. They're never 20. It's like we got from 27 to 26 to 25. I get excited at 25. I'm like, close enough. People also love a female voice of authority. Can we give it up for that? Not enough women out there in this space. So that's really good. And the other thing that came back in the data poll was the leather jackets. There was a lot of commentary about the leather jacket.

John Evans (4:07)

There we go. Let's get the leather jacket back on. There we go.

Corey Marchisotto (4:10)

And then you had some other really good stats about who was engaging with the posts that I thought were.

John Evans (4:15)

Yeah, this was really fascinating because obviously on LinkedIn you get to see who's responded to the post. Number one were founders, number two, co founders. So there's something about running a business and owning a business and the challenges that faces that this really taps into. I mean, and every good marketer as well should think like a business owner as well.

Corey Marchisotto (4:36)

Well, I think the other thing is uncensored Challenger, brand Renegade. It's all thematically tied to entrepreneurial ship, which is where you're going to get a lot of founders. I mean, most of the entrepreneurial energy. And the Challenger comes from that scrappy startup, you know, basically make it or die kind of Mentality, which is what allows Challenger Brands to say Challenger Brands. So I thought that was. Was pretty cool. And it was the number four engaged post in the last 30 days. And I'm like, we gotta get this into the top three at least, right?

John Evans (5:12)

100%, James. The audio is quite bad, apparently. The audio, it's a bit fishbowl. Everyone could huddle in a bit.

Corey Marchisotto (5:20)

You come to us, get closer.

John Evans (5:23)

Yeah.

Corey Marchisotto (5:26)

Or at least scratch the recording and just do. The other idea is it's not going to be a podcast and we just make it about the audience.

John Evans (5:33)

Oh, I just did it as a live film. I'm happy with that.

Corey Marchisotto (5:38)

Everyone seems to enjoy me. This is amazing.

John Evans (5:41)

This is pretty cool, right?

Corey Marchisotto (5:42)

I love it. Uh oh, this is so good. Yeah. We have a photographer somewhere, don't we?

John Evans (5:48)

Yeah. All right, let's talk about topics and what we're going to talk about. You said something to me when we first started this, which really hit a nerve, which is, why don't we talk about the things that people are too afraid to talk about?

Corey Marchisotto (6:01)

It's gotta be relatable, real talk, real people. So what I loved about John's podcast is you feel like it's a real conversation that adds real value to your everyday life. So when you listen to the podcast, you're like, I just got a little bit smarter, and I'm gonna put that new intelligence into my work today. And you can actually see it and feel it in action. So we wanted it to be snackable, relatable, repeatable, and valuable to the listener. And one of the things that both of us hear all the time, and I'm sure anyone who's a CMO in the room or out there in the audience is marketers sound like corporate talking heads. And feedback that I get very often is that I actually speak like a human. And I find that to be really interesting. I'm like, when did humans stop sounding like humans? So we want to make sure that we always keep this rooted in humanity. We're here to serve the audience, and we're here to tell folks about the stuff we wish people told us along our journey that would have helped us get further, faster.

John Evans (7:16)

Totally. I mean, we've already recorded 14 episodes, haven't we?

Corey Marchisotto (7:20)

Which is great.

John Evans (7:20)

Which is a bit insane. And the brief was quite fun, actually, because when I was trying to convince Corey to do this, it's like one thing I insisted on. It must be live because the energy is so much greater. And it must go out weekly because having done a podcast for six years, People get into this routine and if it's not weekly, you just go up and down, you never kind of grow sort of thing. Now, Corey's a fairly busy person. Let's just say she has a fairly big job and she has to be in lots of places. So we basically worked out how many hours are we going to be in the same place at the same time in the course of a year, divide that by 52 and you get to 15 minutes. So we decided, well, we ended up going 20, didn't we? In the end sort of thing. But that was the idea. So what we would love to happen, and this is where I think when we kind of finish this chat, I'd love to throw it out to you, is we'd love this to be a community thing where everyone says, this is the question I'm too afraid to ask. I need help with this. So we were talking about, for example, what do I do when I've got a shitty boss or how do I respond when I get fired? You know, what happens when I fail and fail big. You know, these are the kind of things I'd love us to have a conversation about.

Corey Marchisotto (8:26)

Or what happens when somebody in a meeting blows smoke in your face. We're gonna make a whole episode out of that. That actually happened to me. I'm just gonna put that out there. So, you know, and your fight or flight sets in and you don't know how to respond in the moment. So this is really valuable information for our audience. But one of the things maybe would be great is to take them on the journey of how did we get here? Because it started with you.

John Evans (8:51)

It did, yeah. Well, it's funny when I'm looking for guests on the show, by the way, there are a few guests here actually. So in this corner over here, we've got some former guests that do go there afterwards, but have a very simple brief for Kerry, who does all the planning, guest planning for me, which is find me the most interesting person you can. Because when you're creating a podcast, you want to have engaging stories, you want to have real life experience. So it's not just about learning how to do it, but. But it's more about how you communicate that to the audience. And so I said to Kerry, right, get me the most kick ass cmos in America. Cause obviously this is where the action happens. And so basically I've been sort of trying to get Corey on the show for some time and can was the moment when it happens, right, because you were over, you were presenting, you were Doing something with Mike Cesario, weren't you?

Corey Marchisotto (9:40)

Yeah, I think we had just dropped our collab and he was.

John Evans (9:43)

That's right. Then we had the conversation on the podcast, and it was just that chemistry thing where I thought Corey exemplifies everything that I would want to be as a cmo. As I say, I always joke because I got fired twice in the same year about seven years ago. The reason I do this is because I couldn't become a. Well, actually, one of the topics we cover is what to do when you get fired, which is basically 18 minutes of me talking. Right. There are other episodes, by the way, that, you know, mostly Corey. But anyway, that's fun.

Corey Marchisotto (10:09)

I love that you're open about it. Like, how many people in this room have been fired? Right? Like, it's not something that people feel comfortable talking about. It's part of the journey, and we want to be able to lift people up, be like, all right, you got fired. Here's five people who got fired. Go talk to them versus go hiding in a corner and thinking that you have to put your head down in shame. And this is where the humanity part comes in. But Carrie stalked me.

John Evans (10:35)

She did, like.

Corey Marchisotto (10:36)

Like a psycho stalker to try to get me on the show. And eventually I listened to some episodes. I chatted with some folks that you had had on, and they were like, oh, my God, absolutely. Get on there. Go do it. So I did the episode, and I believe it was your second highest rated episode after Scott Galloway.

John Evans (10:58)

It was, yes.

Corey Marchisotto (11:01)

So as you'll hear us talk about, often were following the signals. Right. This was data and insights that led us here, which is a lot of what we talk about on the podcast is the formula for success, which starts with listening. And that's where that came from. So then John propositioned me for building this out. And of course, my number one thing was time. How are we going to get this done? And when you have, yes. Energy and you believe in the thing, you figure it out. And I think that's kind of where we are right now, is we're figuring it out.

John Evans (11:40)

Well, we've already done. Let me just add this up. We've done Cannes, Paris, London, New York. We're doing pretty well, actually, on the kind of world tour, aren't we?

Corey Marchisotto (11:51)

So why Renegades? Let's talk about the name. Because that's been a journey.

John Evans (11:54)

That has been a journey.

Corey Marchisotto (11:55)

There's quite a few people in this room right now who've been part of this journey. Inputting, commenting, contributing both to the artwork as well as, as to the names.

John Evans (12:05)

It'S always the name, isn't it? Like whenever you're launching new product, the name takes forever. We've been through a few names.

Corey Marchisotto (12:09)

We've been through a few names.

John Evans (12:11)

But you came up with Renegades, didn't you? And this is quite recently, actually. So what was it about Renegades that caught your imagination?

Corey Marchisotto (12:17)

I love your focus with uncensored on Challenger brands and the lessons that can be learned from Challenger brands. And Challenger brands are most often successful because they're run by renegades. And one of the things that I think about on what needs to be true for somebody to be in a state of peak performance, you have to be totally aligned with the frequency of the thing that you're into. And when I think about ELF and why this perfectly aligned with who I am, is because it is a company built on a renegade spirit. From our initial founders 21 years ago to our current CEO who was. Who is really more a founder, you know, leans more toward founder, which is, which is why we have such a founder entrepreneurial energy and spirit. And if you're going to try to help people along the journey of being okay to break with the status quo, that name is the transformative name. Like, you're going to listen to this podcast if you want to do things different, differently, if you're willing to take the path of most resistance. And I think the name perfectly exemplifies what you're about, what I'm about, and what we have legitimacy and credibility to stand behind.

John Evans (13:35)

Totally.

Corey Marchisotto (13:36)

And by the way, 16 other names were already taken. Not that I don't love this one. I actually do. And it, you know, there's a lot of difficulties that you have, and this is true for trademarking products. All of us who work in marketing know that the legal side of trying to get something is super complicated.

John Evans (13:55)

Now, we should probably get to know each other a little bit, shouldn't we? Because I know something you do with your team is you've got some very interesting ways of kind of getting under the skin of the people in your team.

Corey Marchisotto (14:05)

So one of the things that I learned along the interview process, it started there and then it translates further, is people have a really hard time talking about themselves. And if you can somehow give them a way to talk about themselves without talking about themselves, you can get to know them further, deeper and faster than ever before. So I started on my interview journey by asking people to describe themselves as a drink. Now people will automatically go to. When I go to a bar, I order a spicy Margarita. And that's not the idea. It's not a drink that you like or a drink that you have daily. It's what does it have to say about who you are? I have interviews where people are talking to me about their mother and their journey and their pathway and dark secrets. I'm like, whoa, okay. As soon as you give somebody a way of describing themselves through another vehicle, it changes the conversation. But then people got onto me, so now everybody knows to anticipate, she's going to ask you what drink you are. So I have a new one that I'm gonna ask you, which is to describe yourself as a spice. So you're in this spice cabinet, and you've gotta pick up the spice that describes John Evans and tell us what that spice has to say about you.

John Evans (15:31)

Now, randomly. Cause you warned me. You're gonna ask me about a spice, right? And I did something. I went on ChatGPT, actually, I came up with. First of all, I came up with the answer. I thought, this is no word of blow. I went on ChatGPT and I said, which spice would I be? And it came up with an exact match for the spice I came up with, which. Which was paprika. I don't know why, but there's something about. There's something about the color of it and the intensity of flavor and the versatility of it, which I absolutely love. That makes any dish just taste better and vibrant and just turn something that can be. You could put it on chips, for example, right? It could. It could turn something quite boring into something quite sensational. Now, the rationale in ChatGPT was a little bit boring, actually. I have to be honest. It said that John likes to mix real world experience with theory. And I say, what's that got to do with paprika? I don't know how do you get from that to paprika? But anyway. But I love the fact that he got the spice right. I thought that was really good. What about you, though?

Corey Marchisotto (16:31)

So I'm an overachiever. I asked three different AIs what they would use to describe me. Only one of them landed on the one that I chose for myself, if I had to pick one. So Perplexity, which is actually my AI of choice of. Of the moment, chose saffron. Yeah, Right. And I hope you're all thinking about what spice you are. And it said that saffron is rare, luminous, and instantly recognizable. And what it says about Corey is she doesn't whisper. She colors everything she touches. I was like, that's good Deep right? That's good. Perplexity knows me. So it's a little poetic and it says that it saffron infuses whatever it enters with vibrancy and a renegade spirit that has the ability to shift and in a business sense turn a company into a culture. Then I asked chatgpt, chatgpt said turmeric, which by the way, I didn't know how to spell until after we made a mistake on a Key Soul Care golden cleanser that has turmeric in it. And we put a lot of bottles to market without the first R. We won't ever make that mistake again. So yes, turmeric with two Rs and this one says turmeric because purposeful power. Corey is bold without being loud, transformative at her core, warmth with an edge recognized for benefits, not just taste and always leaves a mark. And the last one was Gemini and Gemini chose crushed red pepper. So I think we see a common, a common thread here. I'm obviously a little spicy and this one because I bring a renegade heat. I didn't say the word renegade. Interesting that Gemini chose that. A lightning bolt impact, a kind heart with a kick and a purpose driven depth. So I thought actually AI did a pretty good job. So it's a great interview question and it really helps people understand how to get behind the wall of the facade that we want to put up. Plus, everybody's over prepared. So you have to be ready to throw a question out that's going to help you get past the small talk. All right, I'm going to ask you another question. What makes you mental?

John Evans (19:02)

You know, when you asked me this earlier, I literally was went mental, didn't I? Like, and I don't know what this is. This is going to be like totally first world problems. I'm going to sound probably like a right old ass now when I say this, but I planned my trip over here. So I've got, I fly between BA or Virgin. I've got the loyalty card in both and I managed to get to gold status on Virgin, which gets you into the. By the way, anyone who flies through Terminal 3, the Lounge, Virgin Lounge there is like nothing else. It's amazing. So I planned my trip here based on the fact that I've got a gold card. I can get into the lounge. It's all going to be lovely and that sort of thing. Anyway, I didn't even think about checking and I got there, got through and looked map. It's like, oh, I've been downgraded Silver Damn. And then I realized that it hadn't updated for, like, my past eight flights. It was missing, like, half my travel from the year. And that's why I've been downgraded. But I was just like, producer James will back me up on this because he was flying BA and we were messaging each other, but it just, like, really irritated me. Now it's going to sound, like, very deeperish, I'm sure, but. But that's just symbolic for me. Bad customer experience or bad customer service that doesn't live up to the reason you love the brand is just earth shattering. It just, you know, I. I got really. I'm never going to fly Virgin again. I can't believe by the time I got on the plane, it was all fine and having a great trip. But I think the thing that makes me mad is any bad customer service where the promise of the brand and the service don't match up. And it's also the marketer in me, because I then want to solve it. So I then get involved with the staff going, you know, what you should be doing right now is, you know, giving me this and that, you know, and they must think, who's this dude?

Corey Marchisotto (20:38)

You know, it makes me mental that the airlines can't figure out among the alliances how to make this a smooth, frictionless way of connecting the dots between if I fly Delta or I fly somebody in the alliance. Why can't I more easily connect these? So I actually think it's a pretty bad experience across all of the businesses. But I totally agree. That was actually my fourth on the list was my. My list of things that make me mental is bad customer service. The first one for me as a New Yorker living in San Francisco is San Franciscans crossing the street. This makes me insane. And I have tried to do it their way, and I just can't, no matter how hard I try. So for those of you who don't know what I'm talking about, they follow the rules even if there are no cars. So they are standing on the street corner. The light is not in your favor. Okay, I get it. But there's no cars. What are you waiting for? So I, like, rev up the engine and I'm like, all right, we're gonna cross, right? We're gonna cross, right? And they don't. They wait until the hand says it's okay to cross. I'm like, I can't live like this. It makes me insane, literally.

John Evans (22:07)

Can I put a case for the San Franciscans Oversee? Right? Because you should try being an Englishman in New York. I got. Almost got killed yesterday. I don't know the cars are allowed to go over when it's your turn as a pedestrian. What's that about? This woman was like, this far from me. I literally just stared all the way around me as I walked across. It scares the living daylights out of you because we expect to be in San Francisco, right. When it comes to New York, it's completely different.

Corey Marchisotto (22:33)

Completely different.

John Evans (22:33)

How many English people died in.

Corey Marchisotto (22:35)

In the uk, and thank God they say look both ways because obviously we look the way that we're used to. And then you forget the other way until you almost get run over. And then you're like, that's why they.

John Evans (22:45)

Said the double whammy fingers, people. We're looking the wrong way as the car's going this way in through a light. Yeah.

Corey Marchisotto (22:50)

All right. What's the second thing that makes you mental?

John Evans (22:53)

Any, any admin whatsoever? Like, I, I, I. I've got the biggest expenses bill in the company, like, by far. Because I've got, like, three years and I just cannot. I just cannot do it. My brain does. James will back me up on this. My brain just doesn't compute in. I can't do processy things. You know, we have to sit down and concentrate on this and that and put this in and that. My brain just goes all over the place. I just, I'm great at creative thoughts and joining dots that no one else thinks, but doing a process thing, I just can't stick at it. So I think I made like £30,000 or something.

Corey Marchisotto (23:31)

Well, the good news is you can fix that because folks around you can help you with the stuff that you're not.

John Evans (23:36)

I know, but then they want things like receipts. Like, this is really hard work. We went out for dinner last night, and James was literally. When I signed the check, the bill, like, he literally is like, take a photo of that. You'll thank me later. It's like $500 that I wouldn't have got back otherwise.

Corey Marchisotto (23:53)

The second thing that makes me mental, eating in bed. I cannot handle even for a second, the thought of crumbs in your bed. I don't care if I'm in a hotel room. I don't care. There's no eating in bed. Folks like, none do not deliver me a tray in bed. Bring me breakfast. Breakfast in bed. Who came up with this idea? Are you out of your mind? Like, no, there cannot be. I'm sorry, there cannot be be food in the bed. It's just, it's totally unacceptable. When I was living in the dorm, I mean, essentially your dorm room is a bed, right? I mean, everybody literally has a bed and a desk. I had a friend who was. Would wear his food and he was so crummy. So I went to the stores, living downtown Manhattan at the time. And there was one of those, like, gadgets and gadgets places. And I got one of those little hand vacs and I would vacuum him because he was getting crumbs on my crouton. On my futon, my crouton. Croutons in bed are a bad idea also. So for me, like crumbs in the bed, it just makes me absolutely mental. Almost as mental as my third thing. And we'll finish on your third, which is my husband chewing gum. I can handle a lot of people chewing gum. I don't have a problem with gum chewing. I really don't. But when my husband chews gum, like I want to punch him in the face. What's your third thing?

John Evans (25:25)

My third thing's probably going to be deciding what to wear. And the reason I only wear black now is just to remove any decision making in my life.

Corey Marchisotto (25:35)

Well, there is a book, the Earned Life. Since you're the great book reader and the author. His name escapes me right now. We'll come back to it. He is the executive coach for some of the greatest CEOs in the world. And one of the things that he talks about is you have to leave as much room for strategic decision making power as possible, which means you have to eliminate small decisions, as many of them as possible. And that's why Steve Jobs and a lot of CEOs, you'll see we're the same thing. They have a uniform. And it's actually a strategic decision because when you remove making yourself mental on what you're going to wear and how you're going to show up in the world, you're freeing up decision making capacity for the important stuff. And as I was reading this, I'm like, ladies, we've been putting ourselves at a disadvantage for a very long time because we every day put a lot of decision making energy and muscle into how we present ourselves to the world. So it's something I've been thinking a lot about of this idea of how do you remove all of those smaller decisions so that your brain is ready to handle the bigger stuff that comes your way?

John Evans (27:03)

You remind me, actually, Rory Sutherland, one of the most popular guests on the show as well. I was interviewing him about a year ago and we were on stage and we had these like tiny, tiny stalls. You know, like, kind of like pot bands might sit on them. They're like, they're about that wide. And he's a larger kind of guy, right? And he just said to me, he literally walked up and said, get rid of them now sort of thing. He said, I'll be spending 50% of my cognitive load just balancing on this kind of stall, wanting to, not want to fall off. So the reason podcasters have nice chairs like this is actually because you want someone to be comfortable and focused on what they're thinking about, not balancing, you know, balancing on a stage, on a stool kind of thing.

Corey Marchisotto (27:41)

That makes total sense. All right, you ready for the third question?

John Evans (27:43)

Go on, hit me with the third one.

Corey Marchisotto (27:44)

All right, the third question is, what do you do to recharge? So obviously recharging is critical. I think most of us come back from the holiday very fresh, very energetic, clear thinking, new ideas. And it's because we took five minutes over the break to disconnect. So how do you recharge? Where do you, like, plug in and get that energy field?

John Evans (28:09)

Okay, well, unfortunately, I have to play on a complete stereotype here of the map, which, if anyone doesn't know, is middle aged man in Lycra. So it horrified me, the idea of wearing Lycra as a man, actually. And then I got into cycling and suddenly it gets uber competitive about who's got the tightest Lycra and, you know, the most aerodynamic Lycra. It's like, honestly. And it's really expensive as well. It costs a fortune as well to get the proper gear. Anyway, personally, and this is probably a universal insight, I'm sure lots of people will be like this, but when you exercise, it just releases all the things that are going on in your head and. And because you're in a different kind of mindset, I find everything falls into place. So I'll be out on a long bike ride, you know, 50, 60 miles or whatever. The amount of ideas that will come to me or the solutions I'll have. And it feels like. And also when I take time out of my working week to go on the kind of turbo trainer indoors, it feels like I'm cheating. Like, oh, I should be working, but the amount of value I get back in that hour because I'm not only looked after my body, but I've given my mind an opportunity to kind of get into a different way of thinking, I just find that hugely, hugely energizing.

Corey Marchisotto (29:13)

And you've been really into the cycling thing.

John Evans (29:16)

Yeah, well, it's a bit scary, actually, because about one of the. One of the nice things about having a podcast is people send you stuff, right, because they want you to talk about it. So I've got like this. Like Lycra, like this whoop. By the way, big shout out to whoop. But Zwift, you know, Zwift, they're like the indoor bikes, so it's a bit like peloton, where it's like a bike and you can race other people. Hugely competitive. It's very good. And they. The. The CMO there, Steve, wonderful guy, messaged James and I and said, oh, do you want to come and do a stage? The Tour de France. They sponsored the women's Tour de France. Tour de France. Abec Zwift. And we got to do a stay. We got to do the hardest stage. They don't pick an easy one, right? They pick what they call the Queen stage, which is the one with the most mountains in. Now, I'd. Now, on this route, I'd never even done the equivalent of the first hill, you know, let alone the big mountain. It kind of finished off. And what was cool about that is, like, I had to train really hard. There was no excuses. I had to go out and put the training in. And I live in near London, where it's like pan flat, there's no hills kind of thing. So it was great because I got to get, you know, I got to train, I got to go out and spend time with them. And the day before, which is so cool, they put us in the team car following the women as they went on the race. So we got to see all the action and I. I couldn't believe how fast it was. So we're in a car. It felt like we're in a rally driving because, you know, the roads are mountainous and narrow. But I say it's one of the best days of my life. It was just very, very cool. And then the following day, we actually did. We did what they do is they close the race. Sorry, they close the roads. And you have to do the course before the women catch you up, Right? So I didn't know this, by the way. I didn't know there was a time limit, right? So James and I are taking our time. We're pacing ourselves, we're enjoying the scenery. We stop for a bite to eat, and then this red card, this red car pulls up and it says, end of the race. And they're closing it down. So the professional women are coming past. And this is like about 30 miles into 120 miles. So we then had to pelt it all the way to the finish line. And we got there with three minutes to spare before the pros came whizzing past. So that was a bit scary.

Corey Marchisotto (31:22)

Oh, my gosh. For me, the answer is nature. And the more time I spend in nature, the more I realize the wisdom of the whispering rhythm of everyday life. And all of the answers are actually right in front of us. We're just not looking for them. So I just had a beautiful holiday on Dominica. Dominica, which is not to be confused with the Dominican Republic, and it is called Nature Island. And I've got four peas that I took away from that trip. The first one is pineapples. And I had never seen a pineapple grow from the ground, so I was mesmerized by the fact that it is a single pineapple in a single small, spiky plant. And what that said to me is, we don't put enough emphasis on the slow burn. It takes two years for that plant to gift a pineapple. And in this world of instant gratification, sometimes you need to step back and realize that nurturing the soil and watering the roots and all of the energy that you put behind something, you may not see the result today, but it's coming. The second one is parrots. So this one is because the nation's parrot, it's called the jacko parrot, is something that birders will come from far and wide to see. It's endemic to the island of Dominica. And we had just come back from hiking a waterfall, and there were these two birders who had the telescopic lenses, and they were full on, you know, experts, the gear, the whole thing. I mean, they were like, you know, you with your lycra, they were really experience expensive, ready for action. And they were sitting there for hours. And as I'm waiting for my lemonade with. With fresh herbs to, you know, get energy after the hike, I was like, hey, you guys look disappointed. They're like, we've been here for hours. We haven't seen anything. And I'm like, what are you looking for? They're like, parrots. I turned around, and there's a Jacko parrot 10ft away from us in the tree. They were so reliant on their expertise that they missed what was right in front of their face. And that moment really made me pause and reflect on the fact that we can't have our expertise be a crutch that takes us away from being present. And grounded. It was right there the whole time. And it took the eye of someone who was coming in without these preconceived notions that I need a telescopic lens and it has to be far away to see what was right in front of their faces. So that was a really beautiful lesson and a very rare moment to actually see a jacko. The third one is pancakes. So I don't eat breakfast. I don't eat pancakes and I don't eat peanut butter and jelly. I had pancakes with peanut butter and jelly on it every day for breakfast. And the lesson for me there was pattern disruption. I felt like I could see the world differently every morning because I changed something about my habit that morning. And I think a setting change, a break in your rhythm, Pattern disruption allows you to open your eyes to new perspectives. And the fourth P is Portuguese man of war. Yeah. Okay, so we were in Miami first before we flew to Dominica, and my husband got bitten by a Portuguese man of war on the sand. And why am I enamored by this? Because I knew nothing about the Portuguese man of war. But now I'm studying it to understand, like, what am I supposed to do with this bite? Is it going to get worse? How long is it going to last? Am I going to be. Are we going to be able to hike? Because it was on his foot. And what I found out is like, mind blowing. It is not a jellyfish. Most people think it's a jellyfish. It's actually a collection of organisms that work together. So one of them catches the wind, one of them, you know, gets the food, one of them. So it's actually a team that's working together for the survival of the organism. The second thing is it relies on the wind. So it doesn't actually chart its own course. It lets the conditions carry it. So I was thinking about this and the power of the team and recognizing that you've got an incredible collective and how do you lean on the powers of each person in the collective to follow the signals and let the momentum carry you? So my plug into nature gave me the lessons from pineapples, parrots, pancakes, and Portuguese man of war. Please don't ever get stung by one. It's pretty terrible.

John Evans (36:18)

I love how you drew those lessons out of that. I'm just thinking in terms of some lessons on the. The ride James and I did. And one of the things I reflected on actually was when I said yes, I didn't know I could do it. I wasn't sure I could actually, because from a Cycling point of view, it's a different terrain. It's much, much harder than anything ever done. And sometimes you have to commit to things even when you don't know you'll be able to do them. And I think that's. And so for my New Year's resolution this year, I'm going to do something this year that really scares me just to. And when you commit to it, and again, when you commit to it publicly as well, you then have to follow through and it kind of forces you to stretch.

Corey Marchisotto (36:56)

Takes us back to this podcast.

John Evans (36:58)

It does.

Corey Marchisotto (36:59)

And having the yes. Energy to do it, even though we didn't know how. So we believed in the thing that we were doing. And we said, as long as we believe that what we're creating is real and right and going to give the gifts to the listeners that we want to gift, the rest will fall into place. And I'm still not sure how we're going to do it. And that's okay. So for our listeners, lean into the yes. Energy and as a coach of mine says, brilliantly negotiate the when. And if the idea is scary and you don't know what you're doing and you've never done it before, you're on the right path. Path. And I think most people say no out of fear, and nothing good happens when fear is in the driver's seat.

John Evans (37:54)

There's that quote, I think it's a US General, isn't it, that says, confront the brutal facts and then proceed with unshakable belief it will happen. And it's that combination of being realistic about what you've signed up for, but absolutely believing it's going to happen.

Corey Marchisotto (38:08)

I love that you always have the quotes in the book, so.

John Evans (38:10)

I know, I know.

Corey Marchisotto (38:12)

One thing I'm going to commit to this year is read more books. I have read Marcus Collins for the culture 10 times. That is the book that is in my bag that comes with me on every trip, and I still haven't gotten to the last page.

John Evans (38:28)

I like.

Corey Marchisotto (38:29)

You know, we'll pick chapters and go back in and certain sections because they're just so good and so rich and I want to chew on it. But I need to read more books.

John Evans (38:36)

What would be the best book you've ever read, do you think, or the one that's inspired you the most?

Corey Marchisotto (38:40)

I mean, I still go back to books I read in high school. I mean, 1984. Read it now.

John Evans (38:45)

Yeah.

Corey Marchisotto (38:47)

I mean, this is some Orwellian stuff we got going on Of Mice and Men. Just. Absolutely. I mean, Those books, there's a reason we had to read them. I don't think you can appreciate it the way you can when you look back now at the lessons they teach you, like Lord of the Flies. And so these books have stuck with me and I actually have an increasing appreciation for the lessons that they have to teach us. What about you?

John Evans (39:17)

The most recent one that's inspired me, actually going back to my customer. This will tie back to the customer service thing. Have you met Will Godara?

Corey Marchisotto (39:23)

No.

John Evans (39:23)

Unreasonable hospitality. So the brief story is he and his partner were restaurateurs and he calls himself the dining room guy, right? So he's basically front of a house and his partner is the chef. And they made it onto the top 50 Michelin restaurant list. And they went to the awards ceremony in London and they're with Heston Blumenthal and all these kind of other famous chefs and they're thinking, oh, where are we going to rank? Maybe we'll be top 30, maybe top 20. And they obviously, they go from 50 to one. And they got announced first and they were so gutted. I mean, in fact, their restaurants in. In New York at eleven Madison. And they were absolutely gutted. And it was like they'd lost. They said, in the room, we lost, right? We were the worst restaurant in the room, even though in the top 50. And they went away and they thought, what we're going to do? How are we going to beat these restaurants and be better than them? And his chef friend said, look, we cannot beat them on food. And he wrote down his napkin. Then he wrote, we're going to beat them on service and we're going to be unreasonable in our pursuit of excellence. And one of the stories he tells is he went and they went and benchmarked against the best restaurants in New York. And they had the most perfect experience until the end when they got served an average coffee. And he went, okay, they've missed the coffee. We're going to have coffee, sommeliers, beer sommeliers. We're going to literally pick every single type of drink you might ever want and be absolutely brilliant at it. And then he had another insight, which I love, which called the 955 rule, which is be absolutely obsessive about saving cost on 95% and then be extravagant on the 5, because it's the 5% of things that make the magic. You know, he had loads of examples. Like he had the. The world's most expensive and over over engineered gelato spoon. You know, it sounds a bit weird, but it's the thing everyone went and talks about. It was part of the experience. But honestly, that book is just the best marketing book I've ever read in my life. Not by a marketer. You know, the lessons in terms of how you approach a business and build a brand.

Corey Marchisotto (41:26)

It was also one of my favorite episodes of yours.

John Evans (41:29)

Oh, it's so good.

Corey Marchisotto (41:29)

I texted you after that one. I'm like, okay, this guy is unbelievable. And I need to read his book. Speaking of episodes. So we wanted to crowdsource some thought starters on what would you like us to talk about for future episodes? Like, what topics? So as a reminder, we talked about getting fired. We talked about shitty bosses.

John Evans (41:54)

Today we did CFOs versus CMOs, CFO.

Corey Marchisotto (41:56)

And CMO relationship and what you're not good at.

John Evans (41:59)

Love some ideas from the. From the audience as to what. What would you like us. What topics or questions would you love us to tackle? Yeah, these are great. You're gonna have to help me with this one. How can we stop John getting fired.

Corey Marchisotto (42:13)

Might be too podcast and you won't get fired.

John Evans (42:16)

Well, they. Oh, that actually funny. That is quite. I often get asked, why did I start the podcast? And it was out of desperation because I. I got fired twice in the same year. A terrible year to get fired. 20. When was it? 2018. So not only was it a bad year for hiring CMOs, then Covid happened straight after. Right. So it's the worst possible time. And so I decided I had to meet people that might give me a job. And so the podcast was purely a selfish endeavor to try and meet people to get a job. And I still. Still going.

Corey Marchisotto (42:44)

Well, I mean, it's an incredible well that you're dipping into with having these exceptional conversations with these exceptional leaders.

John Evans (42:53)

So what's the worst thing about being a cmo?

Corey Marchisotto (42:57)

I love that.

John Evans (42:58)

Should you ever quit without a plan?

Corey Marchisotto (43:01)

So. So I heard a new term, which is power pause. Has anyone heard this? The number of people who are going on a power pause, like, F you, I quit and I have no plan. So this is actually a thing.

John Evans (43:16)

It is.

Corey Marchisotto (43:16)

This is the thing. A lot of people are doing this right now.

John Evans (43:19)

I say there's three people this week that have messaged me to tell me.

Corey Marchisotto (43:22)

They'Re doing that same.

John Evans (43:24)

I think it's January, isn't it? Like, everyone's gone away at Christmas and gone back and thought, what am I doing it?

Corey Marchisotto (43:28)

I love that it's called the power. I'm like a marketer. Definitely came up with PowerPoint.

John Evans (43:32)

Yeah.

Corey Marchisotto (43:33)

Okay.

John Evans (43:33)

What are the unspoken Rules of rising up and staying in market. Staying in marketing. This is one for you, right? This would be 20 minutes of you staying in marketing leadership.

Corey Marchisotto (43:41)

That's a great one.

John Evans (43:42)

How to navigate when an employee calls you a bad boss. I can take that one.

Corey Marchisotto (43:49)

Oh, there's good ones to navigate in that one. I have to put a funny story in there because I love this one. So we asked for feedback from the organization on our leadership and it was something like, what should we start? Stop. There was three things. I forgot what the other thing was. And you know, if you want to put your name on it, great. If you don't, you could be anonymous. Up to you. And it is not easy to digest. Hundreds of people judging you. And the place that I got really hung up on was the number of people who are commenting on how I look and how I dress and not in a good way. Like, Corey needs to change the way she dressed. She doesn't show up like a C suite executive. And I looked at the other commentary for the other leaders and nobody ever said that about a man. Isn't that interesting. So that's actually a good episode to talk about. Like, how do you eat piles of shit and smile and still do a great job?

John Evans (44:54)

One thing I found actually when I, when I got to CMO level was how lonely it was. And I remember that I can tell you the exact moment I felt the loneliness because I was with my team and they're, they're laughing about something on the WhatsApp group chat and I said, oh, can I join the WhatsApp? And they're like, this is what, this is where we get to talk about you. I was like, oh, shit, I'm one of the grown ups now. You know what I mean? Because you know when you're in the board, right, no one else does marketing, so no one understand what you're facing. They all do. Because other things.

Corey Marchisotto (45:26)

Yeah, it's very rare.

John Evans (45:27)

It's very hard. How to say no. How to manage your.

Corey Marchisotto (45:30)

Okay, you're gonna teach me how to say no. You don't know how to no. No.

John Evans (45:32)

I'm robust.

Corey Marchisotto (45:33)

I don't know how to say no.

John Evans (45:34)

We're gonna be.

Corey Marchisotto (45:35)

That's gonna be fun. Neither one of us know how to.

John Evans (45:37)

Do help each other. What'd you do about direct reports that aren't performing? What do high performers all have in common? Oh, you'll be good at this. How to deliver good feedback. You're very good at this because you've got a good philosophy.

Corey Marchisotto (45:50)

How many episodes do we have. Thanks. This is fantastic. Thank you, guys.

John Evans (45:55)

You taught me the difference between being nice and being kind.

Corey Marchisotto (45:58)

Yes.

John Evans (45:58)

Which is quite powerful.

Corey Marchisotto (45:59)

Super important.

John Evans (46:00)

Oh, yes. John talks a lot about being fired. What's it like when you fire someone else? I've done that a lot as well, actually. That. That hurts. Although I have to say, every time I fired someone, it's always been good for them in a weird sense, because it's. Usually you get to the point where actually, you both know. And it's a relief.

Corey Marchisotto (46:18)

These are great.

John Evans (46:19)

There you go. That's pretty good. We got a lot there, haven't we?

Corey Marchisotto (46:22)

Okay, well, thank you, everyone, everybody. That's amazing. Brilliant.

John Evans (46:25)

Thank you very much.