Why Marketers Don’t Make the Boardroom - Thomas Barta

Summary

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Podcast Summary: Why Marketers Don’t Make the Boardroom

Podcast: Uncensored CMO
Host: Jon Evans
Guest: Thomas Barta
Date: February 18, 2026

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Overview

In this energized and candid episode of Uncensored CMO, host Jon Evans delves into the persistent challenge of why marketers rarely make it to the boardroom with leadership expert and author Thomas Barta. Drawing on his extensive research—including over 68,000 leadership assessments—and practical boardroom experience, Barta shares actionable insights for marketers aiming to gain influence at the highest levels of business. The discussion surfaces the perennial tension between marketing’s creative ambitions and corporate reality, offering a blueprint for marketers to step up as genuine business leaders.

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Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. The Journey to Board-Level Marketing

• Thomas Barta’s Background

  • Developed a fascination for advertising at age six ([00:46]).
  • Rose to European Marketing Director at Kimberly Clark before moving to McKinsey, helping CEOs understand marketing’s power.
  • Motivated to help marketers when he saw even skilled CMOs struggle to connect in management teams ([00:46]).

• Shocking Reality in the Boardroom

  • Marketing is often relegated to the final agenda item, with little focus from boards ([01:52]).
  • “The conversations around running a business are very different to the conversations you may have had before in your marketing team.” — Jon Evans ([02:11]).

2. What CEOs Want & Why Marketers Miss the Mark

• The CEO’s Simple Expectation

  • “Grow the business profitably, full stop.” — Thomas Barta ([03:58])
  • Despite clear expectations, Fortune 500 companies showed minimal growth (0.1% to 1.8% recently) ([03:58]).

• Why Marketers Aren’t Cutting Through

  • Few marketers present on boards; the numbers are “really shocking” ([04:39]).
  • Marketers focus too heavily on customer needs, neglecting alignment with overall company goals ([05:17]).

• The Value Creation Zone

  • The most powerful marketers operate in the “V Zone” where customer and company needs intersect ([05:17]).
  • “If you're in the V zone, they won’t cut your budgets because you're seen as relevant.” — Thomas Barta ([06:51]).

3. Language Matters: Speaking the Boardroom’s Dialect

• Communicating Growth, Not Jargon

  • Board discussions are not about segmentation and programmatics—they care about growth, revenue, customers ([08:48]).
  • “Sit down with the CFO and do it jointly. Just imagine—the CFO would present; your numbers standing would change.” — Thomas Barta ([09:35]).

• Cultivating CFO Relationships

  • Embedding the finance team in marketing conversations is critical.
  • “If your CFO is explaining why you should invest in marketing, you’ve done the job.” — Jon Evans ([10:31]).
  • “The CEO and CFO need to see that marketing is part of the same team... sometimes you gotta take one for the team.” — Thomas Barta ([11:30])

4. Role Clarity and the Downside of Title Inflation

• CMOs and Job Titles
  • Too much noise, too many new titles (“Chief Growth Officer,” etc.) signal underlying confusion ([14:43]).
  • “If marketing had a CMO, you’d almost need to replace that person...” — Thomas Barta ([15:43]).
  • The focus must return to the core purpose: driving growth ([16:38]).

5. Leadership: Upwards, Sideways, and with Courage

• The 12 Powers of a Market Leader

  • Success comes from understanding both the company and customer—spending as much time leading “upwards” as leading teams ([19:17]).
  • Marketers must also “mobilize sideways” across the organization—building coalitions, walking the halls, and being visible where decisions happen ([20:36]).

• Three Distinct Powers for Influence

  1. Have a compelling change story—“What’s the big idea that you want people to dream with you?” ([19:47])
  2. Mobilize—be present where decisions are made.
  3. Demonstrate seriousness—get hands-on in stores, with products, with people ([20:49]).

6. The Paradox of Fitting In: Safe is Risky

• Fitting In vs. Standing Out

  • “Fitting in is the safest way to fail.” — Jon Evans, quoting Thomas Barta ([21:08])
  • Research: “Companies are not made for growth... the resistance has won when HR is adding another box to make sure everyone fits.” — Thomas Barta ([22:00])
  • Four types of leaders identified: Flowkeepers, Implementers, Dreamers, Growth Rebels ([25:06]).
  • The goal: Be a Growth Rebel—combine big ideas with organizational mobilization.

• Courage as a Success Multiplier

  • 60% of growth comes down to bravery.
  • “Standing out is also a little negative... nobody wants to work with a smart ass. You want to work with people who take you along.” — Thomas Barta ([25:27])

7. Bravery Formula and Practical Steps

• “Bravery = Purpose – Fear”
  • Having a big enough reason (“purpose”) reduces the impact of fear ([28:18]).
  • “If you really believe in something, fear will play a smaller role.” — Thomas Barta ([29:09])
  • Progress comes from a series of small brave acts, not one grand gesture ([30:40]).

8. The Realities of CMO Life: “Confessions” and Coping

• Honest CMO Confessions

  • “You're hired for your vision, but then questioned for your execution.” ([31:09])
  • “Sometimes my job feels 10% strategy and 90% justifying the 10%.” ([34:10])
  • “I was labeled difficult because I wouldn’t conform. That’s why I was hired in the first place…” ([34:27])
  • Barta: If you spend 90% of your time justifying, you haven’t connected well enough ([34:18]).
  • Comfort today often leads to discomfort tomorrow; lean into discomfort now for future comfort ([29:46]).

• Setting & Managing Expectations

  • “Satisfaction is the difference between expectation and reality. You can over deliver or set expectations—and both will create satisfaction.” — Thomas Barta ([36:19])

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Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• On Boardroom Language:
  “Nobody cares about segmentation and programmatic… The question is: Are you able to connect?”
  — Thomas Barta ([08:48])

• On Marketer’s Role:
  “There’s only two choices. You’re either cost or you’re revenue. People don’t put you in between.”
  — Thomas Barta ([07:56])

• On Leadership Courage:
  “Fitting in is negative for growth. Standing out is also a little negative…The rebel challenge is you gotta find a big idea, and you need to bring the organization along. That’s the bravery that will create growth.”
  — Thomas Barta ([25:27])

• On Setting the Stage for Success:
  “Connect what you’re doing with the company mission, position it in the language of the boardroom and the CFO, and then get other people to tell the story and kind of share the vision with you…”
  — Jon Evans ([12:36])

• On Purpose and Fear:
  “Bravery is purpose minus fear.”
  — Thomas Barta ([28:18])

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Timestamps for Key Segments

• Barta's Marketing Origin Story: [00:46]
• Marketing's Place in the Boardroom: [01:52]–[02:32]
• What CEOs Expect from Marketing: [03:58]
• Why Marketers Are Absent in Boardrooms: [04:39]–[05:17]
• The Critical 'V Zone': [05:17]–[06:51]
• Language Shift—Boardroom Communication: [08:48]–[10:01]
• Building Relations with CFOs: [10:01]–[12:36]
• Job Titles and the CMO Identity Crisis: [14:43]–[17:26]
• The 12 Powers/Value Creation Zone: [19:17]–[21:08]
• Fitting in vs. Standing Out: [21:08]–[26:00]
• Formulas: Bravery and Satisfaction: [28:18], [36:19]
• CMO Confessions and Boardroom Realities: [31:09]–[36:31]

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Conclusion

This episode is an absolute masterclass for marketers aspiring for greater business influence. Thomas Barta pulls no punches: true marketing leadership means aligning passionately with company strategy, speaking the boardroom’s language, challenging the status quo, and cultivating courage to push big ideas. Marketers must become as fluent in growth and organizational mobilization as they are in consumer insight and creativity. “Fitting in is the safest way to fail.” Instead, become a Growth Rebel—be brave, purpose-driven, and collaborative.

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For more on Thomas Barta’s research, check out his book The 12 Powers of a Market Leader. A new edition is on the way, promising expanded insights on AI, leadership, and the future of marketing.

Transcript

[A]

Ladies and gentlemen, welcome back to the uncensored cmo. Now, one question I'm asked all the time is how can marketers cut through in the board? We don't have enough marketers operating at top of organisations. It's really, really important that we learn not just technical marketing skills but leadership skills to help us be better in businesses. So I'm joined today by a world expert on that subject, Thomas Barter, who surveyed more people than I care to mention and has written the book on it too. He's got loads and loads of great advice and wisdom on how to do this. You'll love this episode. Here we go. Thomas Barter, welcome to the show.

[B]

Thanks for having me. Appreciate it.

[A]

So before we get into marketing skills, the book, the course and everything you're doing today, how did you get into marketing in the first place?

[B]

I was 6 years old, my parents talked to me for the first time that they're really worried because I'm watching ads and not the films and they were worried I wouldn't become an advertising person, which that's how they called it. Then I did. In fact, I became a marketer, joined Kimberly Clark, did proper fast moving consumer goods. I was the marketing director, leading Kleenex household here in Europe. And I was so sick and tired of marketing because I thought why is finance telling us what to do every day? So I'm out joining McKinsey, telling the CEOs how marketing really works, only to find out that they already knew that. But what was very interesting, when you then work for CEOs and CMOs and you see everybody in the boardroom, you see what's going on and you see that many chief marketing officers are super well intended, extremely smart, clever, creative, perhaps not always connecting with the company. I felt like we have to change this and that's why I stepped out of McKinsey after 12 years and do everything that helps marketers grow.

[A]

Now. I remember when I made the jump to like the C suite CMO role in a board. Something that totally shocked me was how little marketing gets discussed in the boardroom. I remember every month when we had our board meeting, the marketing section was kind of like the. And finally at the end, John's going to show us his new labels, you.

[B]

Know what I mean?

[A]

And it was a real wake up call to realize the conversations around running a business are very different to the conversations you may have had before in your marketing team about the marketing you're executing in that particular month. I'd be curious to know what are the biggest Surprises that you find marketers have when they reach that level of wanting to get into the board.

[B]

Well, you just described one of the big surprises, which by the way, shouldn't be a surprise because you should know your target groups. That's what we do as marketers. But also that the short and the long term challenge is real. It's not just the board being mean to you, not giving you the money. There is when you sit in that seat, you suddenly have to almost cut your own budgets by saying, maybe we have to do this year. But I think those are the two real surprises. Perhaps the third one, power plays a big role in the management team and you have to apply that too.

[A]

You're so right.

[B]

Actually.

[A]

I remember I was in a private equity situation. And you realize actually that the decisions you're making when it comes to finances will be do we give the factory floor a pay rise, do we invest in a new factory, do we spend money on supply chain efficiency and cost savings? So actually what you realize is that your budget and your spend is in the context of the overall business operating. And you've got responsibilities to shareholders, to the bank to pay back loans and suddenly realize that you're operating in a much, much bigger context. And that you have to position what you do in the context of what's in the best interest of the company, the staff, the shareholders, long term success. And it really changes your mindset in terms of how you might sort of pitch. So maybe let me ask you this question then. What is the CEO looking for a CMO to deliver?

[B]

Well, it's pretty simple. There's just a brand new study out that says it, that says exactly what it has always said. Grow the business profitably, full stop. It has said it in five different ways and it always comes out as a high score. It's extremely simple. All the rest is also important. But that's ultimately what CEOs want. Unfortunately, it doesn't work. Fortune 500, global, Fortune 5002023 grew by 0.1% or, or not at all, as we say in Germany. And then last year was just a little better, 1.8. So growth is a challenge and the CEOs are looking for people to change that. And that's what we're doing in marketing now.

[A]

Growth is hard. We know what is it. Marketers are not doing well enough to communicate their contribution to company growth. Because one of the things that I noticed, I mean, we had Chris Burgrave actually on the podcast last year. He was CMO, AB InBev and he's looking into the representation of CMOs or people with marketing experience on the board. The numbers are shocking. I mean, really shocking. They're absolutely tiny. The number of marketers that actually make it onto the boards.

[B]

Yes.

[A]

So what's going wrong? Because as marketers, we represent the customer, we come up with strategies, we deliver, we create demand in the marketplace. So what's going wrong? Why are we not cutting through?

[B]

Well, there are two boards here, right? There is the operating management team and that should definitely have a marketer. And even if the CEO is the marketer, it doesn't matter. Someone needs to look at product, price, place, promotion, and ideally that's a chief marketing officer. And that is, I think, an important goal that we get there. Supervisory boards is a different story. It's not operational. They think about more. There's legislation and talent questions. So I think structurally, marketing will probably never be like a big role in supervisory boards. And I think we should be just okay with that. But we should be in the management team because that's what marketing is. It's about finding customers, creating growth and what marketers are doing right or could do better. For the 12 powers of a market leader. The book through the research, we've done 68,000 assessments of people, large scale study. We figured that the best market is to two things. One is they understand and serve customer needs, but they also understand and serve the company needs. So there shouldn't be a surprise about what's happening in the boardroom. You should know that. And if you put that together, you get into this, what we call the value creation zone. And that's where you as a marketer will have power. And it's a very easy benchmark. You can tell if you have it or not, if you're in the VISA or not. Because if you're in the V zone, they won't cut your budgets because you're seen as relevant.

[A]

It's funny, I remember the CEO of a company I used to work for describing marketing as a discretionary spend. And I thought that phrase was quite interesting because discretionary suddenly means it's not essential to the mission. And it really struck me because it makes the point you're making. If your marketing is aligned to the company goals and the company mission, why would you not get support for that? Right?

[B]

Same study I mentioned, what does the CEO want? The CEO also rated CEOs rated 150American CEOs rated their CMO. They could give them an A4 creates growth. The rating this year, 20% got an A. So if that is the truth, you are no longer revenue or cost.

[A]

So can I just clarify that exactly with that statistic? So you saying that only 20% of CEOs rated their CMO as delivering growth for the company. Is that the right way to interject?

[B]

Yeah. The question was, do you give your CMO an A? A rating.

[A]

Oh, as in a top rating for ability for growth.

[B]

Okay, 20% got that. They didn't ask for B and C and D ratings. But the point is, as a marketer, there's only two choices. You either cost or your revenue. People don't put you in between. And if you're not seen as deriving revenue, and we can come to how you do that, and this has to do with internal marketing, has to do with language, has to do with we have to give up a lot of the terms we're using, then you are not seen as discretionary because it's clear that you're developing growth and people will invest in you. But if it's unclear, better cut you, then it's discretionary and nobody should be discretionary. Then go home, don't do the job. I mean, we don't need you.

[A]

All right, so break down for me. What are the tactics that marketers should deploy to make sure that they are delivering?

[B]

So a number of things. The first one is actually genuinely delivering. So think about all the work you do and think, is this actually driving growth? Now, we can come to long term and short term in a minute. There's a huge debate on. But. But ultimately this needs to be the aim number two language in the boardroom. Nobody cares about segmentation and programmatic. And this is detail. The question is, are you able to connect? So, for example, if the board is really worried about certain markets, say, like, we're losing it in China or something like that, can you connect the work to that problem, make the connection? And then third, we need to have clearer language. There is growth, there's revenues, there's customers. Everybody understands this, and we need to be able to translate this. And then ideally, that's why I advise CMOs sit down with the CFO and do it jointly. Just imagine, the CFO would present, your numbers standing would change. But then people are afraid because maybe they find out it doesn't work. But look, you got to have an agile debate, and CEOs are not stupid.

[A]

I say one example of this I absolutely loved. I was at Cannes. This is a couple of years ago. And Jen Chase, she's the SAS cmo, did a presentation with her CFO but what was brilliant, and I thought, absolute masterstroke, she got her CFO to present and explain the marketing theory and why it mattered. And you could see the CFO excitedly engaging with this marketing and telling the story. And I just thought, that is brilliant. If your CFO is explaining why you should invest in marketing, you've done the job. You know what I mean? And I think so many marketers see the finance department as almost the problem that for people to don't mention what we're doing to the finance team sort of thing, but actually getting the finance team embedded in what you're doing, getting them to do the evaluation, getting them to tell your story is so powerful.

[B]

I can't agree more. And many CMOs do that. Jim Farley at Ford, he's now CEO, did that for years and it's extremely powerful tool. And we have a class, it's called Marketing Leadership Masterclass. We'll be teaching people in 12 weeks the principles of getting budgets, getting by and mobilizing people. And it's one of the key tools. And as you say, people get really nervous because they cut out budgets. But it's about an adult conversation building.

[A]

On the CFO and CMO kind of relationship. What else could CMOs do to build that relationship with the CFO to help them become more successful, do you reckon?

[B]

We already talked about some of the key principles. At the end of the day, the CEO and the CFO need to see that the market is a part of the same team. You're not something different. You're not some special department. You're not like, have your own language. You need to be part of the team. And I think the more you can demonstrate that, and that also means sometimes you got to take one for the team if the company isn't in trouble. And it's just not a good idea to ask for lots of cash to throw at something if you're part of the management team. But I think if people get those things right, and I think that's what we see when people come out of the Marketing Leadership Masterclass, by the way. So Sara from Seymour of Diageo cbe, she's a good friend and we're running this together. And that's what people tell us. The ones that a year later come back and say, you know what, I made that step. I had a presentation, I got everybody involved in my plan, I had the CFO present my plan, and by the way, I connected everything to what the company is actually doing. It's a complete game changer.

[A]

Yeah. I love. That's a great summary, isn't it? Connect what you're doing with the company mission, position it in the language of the boardroom and the cfo, and then get other people to tell the story and kind of share the vision with you rather than the vision being yours. The vision that is then ours, isn't it, as a company? And then that helps bring people on the journey. I love that. That's really, really, really clear. One question I should ask at this stage as well. We're always talking about the CMO tenure, right? Everyone's kind of going, oh, the CMOs got the shorter tenure on the board.

[B]

I'm not too worried about the actual current tenure, by the way. And the tenure has actually gone up recently. Census Stewart changed to Fortune 500 from the appetizers. So the whole thing has calmed down. So, by the way, if everybody's still thinking CMO tenure is terrible, it's not. It's actually stable slightly going up, and it's a dynamic role. So I think the tenure worries me a little less. What worries me is the reputation that we in marketing create around that tenure because there's so many wonderful people and having top CMO jobs doing fantastic work and the news get the people who get fired or some tenure studies. Many CEOs hire marketers and have some fantasy ideas about what they're supposed to do and then they forget that again. So, yes, the expectation management is so crucial. So as a market, almost every single day you have to think like, no, they don't know. Exactly. And we have to remind people and we have to agree and we have to be doing so. We can't just rely on that one brief and then for five years try and do the work which is very crucial to do so. Yes, but that's the same with customers. You know, you never complain that customers don't understand your product. I mean, you just go back and do better marketing and just do the same internally.

[A]

One thing I think marketers need to do, marketers need to market marketing much better than they do today. And we know it's a bit like doctors not taking their own medicine, right? Because we are experts at communicating our products and proposition. Why can't we explain the role of marketing? In fact, one of the reasons I do this very podcast is I want marketers to be armed with all the ammunition they ever need to make the case for marketing.

[B]

And it's more obvious. I mean, you think the top marketers. And the problem is when I mention a few now everybody Else gets annoyed because I haven't. But Brent Smart Telstra in Australia is very creative, more communications focused, but he helps grow that organization. Becky Brock what she did at Costa driving is now at Tesco. We have Mark given building a media agency for Sainsbury. And I have a lot like a longest or your Mark Sands Bright what he did for Guinness saving it during COVID Bart Quinton Smith said tui the issue is that we're creating so much negative noise around all of the great work. And here's my. Can I bitch a bit? Okay, here's my list. Can we just not change the title every single week? So there's this chief marketing officer, product price place, promotion. There is a chief communications officer. That's when you only have one p, which is promotion. And then there's a chief operating officer. So then people start to give themselves new names like chief growth officer, chief this, chief that, chief this. And that's all because the company is frustrated that the CMO doesn't grow things. We just need to give it different names. Imagine the CFO doing the same thing. I'm now the chief money man. Everybody's like, are you mad? We have things like performance marketing. Just think about the idea. You take a small piece of marketing, which happens to be promotion, and then a small part of this, which is digital, and call that performance, which kind of means the rest. I mean, if you think about it, right. Is not like, who comes up with this? And then we all talk about it and go to a conference and I have a longer list. The problem is, if marketing had a cmo, you'd almost need to replace that person with someone who, you know, gets it back to what we need to do. We need to grow the business. We need to help the company be more successful. And we need to explain it to the board in a way that they get it like we do with customers and just count the crap.

[A]

Agreed. 100%. All right, so we've agreed on the role is growth. Right? So just to clear.

[B]

Was that too negative? I look, I love, you know, my Every CMO that I meet, I do smile.

[A]

And only because I did. I have to confess, I did change my title. So I was CMO and I went to chief customer officer only because. And I'll make my little case now. So Bo, I do. I do agree. The only reason I did that was I was also in charge of sales at the time. And I wanted to signal to our customers that what I cared about was not marketing to them. I cared about them. And so I wanted to say my role is understanding our customer and representing you where decisions get made as opposed to selling to you sort of thing. But, but, yeah, so, yeah, but you.

[B]

Had a bigger role than cmo.

[A]

In that case, it was a bigger.

[B]

Role and that changed now.

[A]

But back. Back then, I was representing kind of like how we positioned ourselves to the customer as well as. Because in B2B, in my case, in B2B, the customer and the consumer are the same people, whereas in most businesses, the consumer is not the same as the customer. So you have a sales department, you're targeting the customer and then you have a marketing department targeting consumer. Yeah, so in my case, the two were the same. Anyway, sorry, long explanation for my own job title there.

[B]

But it also shows people that we haven't agreed that before. Because I wouldn't have challenged you otherwise.

[A]

No, just generally in principle. And you know what I called the podcast Uncensored cmo. I didn't call it Uncensored cco. So there you go. I can argue, I can even prove myself wrong. Even in this. In this we agree. All right, all right. Sorry to interrupt this conversation. I promise you, it's for a good cause. So I've just put a rather large deposit down on a very big venue in central London called the Outernet that can hold 400 people. It's an amazing venue. Now we're going to be doing the very first uncensored cmo, the Calling. Now, what is the calling? The calling is your opportunity to join us live and be inspired by the world's best founders, the most inspirational CMOs and the best thought leaders. This is one day that will completely transform your career. I promise it will be well worth it. I'm so excited to be doing this and if you want to find out more details, please go to the Show Notes and check it out. And I really look forward to seeing you there. It's on the 21st of April. Do not miss it. Now, back to the show. So, Thomas, you see, you've written the book based on 68,000 assessments, right? So it's a lot of data. You've written the book on the 12 powers of leadership. What would be your summary? What do marketers need to do differently as a result of reading your book?

[B]

So the most important thing I mentioned earlier, the value creation zone. So you need to understand both the company and the customers. That's really big. And in fact, we call that upwards mobilizing, hugely important. And Marketing leadership Masterclass is spending half of the time helping people lead upwards, which you never really learn anywhere. You don't learn in university. You learn teams and yourself and stuff. The other big part is the rest of the organization. So think about it this way. You live in a job where you have literally no power. Everybody can ignore you. If you have a good idea, the sales department can ignore you. Engineers can ignore you. Everybody can ignore you. You need to find ways to mobilize sideways. In the 12 paths we found is that there are three distinct powers. The first one is you need to have, of course, a change story. And I don't mean like story selling, blah, blah, blah, but more like, what's the big idea that you want people to dream with you? I mean, what do you want to really lead? The second one is you need to find ways to mobilize people. Walking the halls. There's a lot of hall walking. When I hear people have the debate on whether they should work in the office or at home, and then they agree on like, oh, let's do two and a half days. The big question isn't answered here. Where are the decision makers? And that's where I need to be. If they're at home, I can do zoom. If not, I need to walk there. And the third one is, you need to be out there and show to people that you mean it serious. Are you in a shop? Are you in the stores? Are you doing that? So those two pieces upwards and sideways, those are huge parts that will build the entire marketing masterclass around that. And yes, there is teams, there's yourself. But if marketers get those things right, they have a massive amount of more power than currently.

[A]

You're so right. Much more influence over decisions, much more respect in terms of the role of marketing, much more likely to be successful. I want to move on, if I can, to something I think is quite important, which is, and let me see if I've quoted you correctly here, but fitting in is the safest way to fail. I love that quote. I love that quote. Because this is a big corporation thing. But in most big corporations, the game in town is how do you align yourself with the politics of the organization, with the consensus around the group, with whoever's got the power in the room.

[B]

Right.

[A]

Your job is mostly alignment, but actually you're challenging that, I think, and saying actually that fitting in in that sense might actually not be the right thing to do. Just explain that a bit more because I think there's something in there that touches on probably what a lot of people in marketing feel.

[B]

So I just commissioned a massive piece of new Research over the last five years by now on courage in business. Because here's the challenge I saw. We're doing all the work with the tough powers and the market leadership masterclass, and we work with the wonderful Sophie Devonshire in the marketing society to make things raise the awareness. But I felt we need to go deeper. So I'm running growth workshops with people and I felt there's something doesn't work here. People come up with small ideas, safe, and then they don't think about how we execute that. So I commissioned that piece and here's what we found. Just touring the world currently with keynotes and workshops on that topic. But here's the thing. Companies are not made for growth. If you think about it, you have an idea and then you do testing. Then come the politics and the budgets. Now we have rules and regulations and HR competency frameworks. You can tell the resistance has one when HR is adding another box to a certain box. Competency framework to make sure everybody who's hired is average enough to fit the company. And then of course, people are fearful, Think big, fail fast. Sounds great at conference. But fail in a company are just annoyed. CEOs don't like failure, they like you to win. So that gets people to kind of like more fit in and do things. Now come to research 3000 people Neural network model. And we looked at. Oh, I mean, it's a really good. It's not mine, it's from insead. I took the leadership model there and we just put it in there. And we found that 55% of someone's success in growth has to do with growth skills. That means finding growth, knowing where it is, looking at, finding bigger markets, looking much bigger at growth that people did in my early workshops. And the Second one is 45%, which is mobilizing skills, moving people along, getting this done, telling the stories. Or you can also say, you could say you need to have a big idea and you never plan. Now, if you think about the profiles of people we found in this, there are four, right? You think about the axis, you have growth skills and you have mobilizing skills. So you have at the bottom left, what we call the flowkeepers. You don't bring big ideas and you're not really mobilizing the organization. You just do the work. And companies are full of flowkeepers and they're really important. They keep it running because they're not growing the company. Then you have implementers. Do you know people where the CEO says, I'll give that to Nancy, and she'll get it done. She knows everybody and implementers are great and are useful and CEOs love them. Then they're dreamers. Big ideas don't know how to move. We've got plenty of those. And they always think like, ah, there's nobody listening to me. And then of course I call them gross rebels. To the people who actually have both big ideas and know how to move the company. When you cut the data in a different way, you see that 60% of all of these skills have to do with bravery. So like sticking out, making the case, showing when something is wrong, speaking up, having the guts to go out and present your idea even if people laugh at you. The rest is management skills. Of course you need them. You need to still work with teams and do all these things. Here's the twist. Fitting in is negative for growth. We can show that standing out is also a little negative for growth. Why is that? Because nobody wants to work with a smart ass. You want to work with people who take you along. So the rebel challenge you have is you got to find a big idea, which means you need to think bigger than you currently do on growth. And secondly, you need to bring the organization along. That's the bravery that will create growth.

[A]

I love that a lot. I think you've hit on something incredibly powerful. Like we spend so much time creating consensus, we actually should try and create courage because we actually want the organization to take a leap forward, don't we? Rather than kind of going for the safest option because actually playing it safe is the biggest risk most companies can take. I mean, we showed this actually in the extraordinary cost of dial that Peterfield and Adam Morgan did just over 18 months ago. We're talking about creative work. I mean, you're talking more broadly about business and marketing, but in creative work, same principle, like being boring in your creative work meant you're ignored, meant that it didn't work and you waste all your money actually taking what's perceived to be a risk, which is no risk at all, really gives you a much more chance of actually standing out and doing something.

[B]

Absolutely. I mean, we talked about so many great people. I talked about Sophie Marketing Society earlier, who takes a lot of risk and is brave and builds this. Or Sharon Shackle, my good friend. I mean, she built the academy and she had that dream and the passion and it's not always easy, but that's what you get. But also you have to accept, and this is the thing that we don't talk a lot about. If you fail, there can be Consequences that whole safe space fail fast sounds really good at conference is not how companies operate. So there is a risk. So you got to be very thoughtful about the risks you take. And just using a grocery workshop example, old way. Before I did this study and before I had figured this out, people came with mediocre. I mean it was good ideas but not always great. And then they didn't think about how to implement and then it fizzled out. After the workshop, people like, because nobody was excited. Now we go in and push people to think way bigger. Like look at all the trends, you know, did you look at China? Did you look at what's happening with global urbanization? People are getting older and Gen Z is really interesting. But you know what the money is, is with Jen Gray and there are lots of them and they're not sitting at home doing gardening and so on, right? And suddenly a big idea comes, but you need 100, I guess to cut out 99. And suddenly the bravery, courage goes up. People get excited. So we need that type of passion for growth, not just PowerPoint.

[A]

Now you had a nice little formula, didn't you, of bravery, which I thought summed it up quite neatly.

[B]

Bravery is purpose minus fear. Exactly. It came. You know why it came. Let me explain it. So the idea is this, if you want to be brave, you can either have more purpose or you can have less fear. Less fear is hard because if you're feared, then you're fear. So a friend of mine couldn't walk. He could walk, but not really well because he had something called a fibulade effect. So his feet were deformed and it was very painful to walk. And as a kid he didn't kind of realize, but when he was getting older, he felt like, damn it, you know, I'll end up in a wheelchair. So when he was 16, he decided to go for an amputation of both his legs. And everyone's like, oh my God, you know, amputation. And for him it was like, no, don't want to be in a wheelchair. It's not a big deal. I mean it's like, so he had a purpose that was so big. That didn't let him worry too much about the surgery. In fact, he felt this has to be done. So the fastest man on earth without leg, not kidding, you know, 100 meter, 200 meter, 400 meter, world records and gold medals and God knows what. The point is, if you really believe in something, fear will play a smaller role. So. And that's what we need to get to rather than Trying to not be fearful, which is hard. We need to get people to get more excited about a true, genuine, gross idea and that will take care of the fear. Bravery is fear management.

[A]

It is, isn't it? The other thing I think I've learned on this is that you should act quickly and not put it off. Because basically, if you choose comfort today, you'll get discomfort tomorrow, but if you choose discomfort today, you'll get comfort tomorrow. And what I mean by that is like, if you lean into what you just said, which is the bravery, actually, that's the. You create the conditions for success, which will give you a comfortable tomorrow. But if you play it safe, all that's going to happen is your brand sit will get worse, your business situation will get worse, and then you'll have to be even braver and less comfortable in the future and have to be even bolder. So sometimes it's like we like to play it safe, don't we? Instinctively, as human beings, we like to avoid the difficult conversation, we like to avoid the difficult decision, we like to avoid upsetting people or. You know what I mean? But actually, the cost of doing that is having an even harder conversation later down the line. And I think that's why leaning into what you just said is so important.

[B]

Sophie Devonshire has written a nice book super fast about how you do that, because lots of people will now listen to this and nod, but it's hard sometimes to do right and super fast. And also the research that I've just shown and what we're doing in the keynotes right now is about the small steps you don't have to wake up in the morning. It's like, oh, I'm Doug The. It's not like this. What are the steps you need to take to make something that's bigger and bigger and bigger? And that's what we need to get to.

[A]

We do. Earlier in the year, actually did a fun little study, which I thought I'd bounce off you. So I was partnering with Worldwide Partners and they are like a large collection of independent creative agencies around the world. And we did a thing at CAN which really made me smile, which is called Confessions of a cmo. And our theory was this is that what people say to you off the camera is often more interesting than what they're prepared to say on the camera sort of thing. We thought, wouldn't it be great to do an anonymous survey of CMOs and ask them what the job's really like? And I just picked out a few of these. I thought it'd be good to kind of get your reaction to it as a bit of fun. The first one that just made me smile was the paradox for CMO is that you're hired for your vision, but then questioned for your execution. I think we can all feel that the moment you get in to the actual operation of the company, then it gets very executional, doesn't it?

[B]

Well, I mean, marketing is an applied science. Yeah. And basically a massive AB test. So everything you do, I mean, we do strategy, but then execution is a big deal. So. Yes. And you should get questioned for your execution, but everybody else does in a company too, Right. You know what your challenge is? Marketers. And I say we because I consider myself one. We create the future. And that is hard to prove. And that's why when you stand next to someone from finance, everything you say will sound less reliable. Because it is. Yeah, just get over it. That's what it is. And people should question your execution and it should give you an opportunity to prove it.

[A]

Well, I think the other bit on that as well, I totally agree with you, is execution without the context of a vision is wasted. Because what often will happen, people will criticize your execution because you haven't set the vision and strategy on which to judge it by. And therefore all they can do is judge you by the execution. So I think that's going back to your skills of align yourself to the company goal, create the story in the organization, bring everyone with you. That's so important. You do that bit right. People will see the execution and understand the context of it, won't they?

[B]

I did a keynote in New York with chief finance officers. It was actually three years ago by now. And then we added a workshop and I asked the question to tell people, everybody should write down the top three priorities of the management team. And lots of people had to make phone calls. So at that point, yes, what a.

[A]

Good test you could get into anonymously across the C suite and then open the paper and say, do we all understand? Are we all on the same page?

[B]

Oh, by the way, that works every team, you ask everybody to say about top priorities. It will never align. It's always fun if you want to surprise people. No, but you need to. Of course, I see more. You need to know that and that's important.

[A]

This quote, I think is going to link to probably what somebody already said. Risk doesn't mean being reckless. It means speaking the truth, even when it's inconvenient. I like that. That really goes back to our point, doesn't it? On the kind of growth rebel.

[B]

I like that. But be selective. Right. You can't pick every battle.

[A]

Yeah. Another quote that made me smile here. Sometimes my job feels 10% strategy and 90% justifying the 10%.

[B]

Well, you need help. Because seriously, if you spend 90% on justifying, I think you still need to connect better. And we talked about that. And you can.

[A]

Yeah, absolutely. This is a good one as well. I was labeled difficult because I wouldn't conform. That's why I was hired in the first place, to deliver transformation. What they didn't tell me was they wanted the transformation without the discomfort.

[B]

Yeah, of course it's human. Right. But that's why it comes to the expectation. Right. No matter what people hire you for, you need to continue to have an adult debate about what that is. Yeah. And that's crucial, actually. If you can also flip it, you could also educate the board. One of my keynotes is marketing in a nutshell. And I do it for senior executives. We did 20 minutes, just the principles, and most people are really surprised about some of the basics that they've never heard about. And if that becomes. It's still vague, then you get all that disconnect.

[A]

Actually one thing that just came with that as well is that when that explaining the discomfort is actually part of the story. So explaining that nothing good ever came easily. And actually we have to go through a building phase or we have to go through disruption, or there's a level of uncertainty managing everyone's expectations on how long it takes to be successful, how far you have to go to be successful, or what the implications of being bold or being brave might be. So I think sometimes it's just a case of letting everyone know. I remember did a big relaunch on Lucas eight, about seven, eight years ago. And I remember we just started it and the HR director said to me, you're not a bit more worried about the results? And I said, don't judge me today, judge me in six months. And I said, look, what we're doing is going to take time, so you're not going to see the next week's sales react. But if in six months you don't see the sales react, then we've got a problem. So I think sometimes it's just a case of explaining how marketing works and how long it takes. And so everyone knows there's going to be a bit of discomfort along the journey as well.

[B]

Satisfaction is the difference between expectation and reality. So you can have. You have two levers and you can either over deliver or you can set expectations and both will potentially create.

[A]

That's a great little formula. I like that as well. Brilliant. Well, I could talk for. I could talk for ages on this. There's plenty we get into. But I've loved this conversation. It's very, very energizing. And I think what, particularly what you've got on your growth, Rebel, I think you're onto something big there. So thank you. Is this going to be, by the way, is this going to be a book that's coming out soon?

[B]

So the tough parts of a market leader is next second edition, brand new, including AI and Home Office. And yes, the next one is actually pretty far down the road and that's really building on how you create growth by pushing the boundaries a bit.

[A]

Fantastic. Well, I very look forward to that in anticipation. If anyone wants to get hold of the book, do that as well. So that'll be out shortly. Thomas, great to see you. Thanks for coming on.

[B]

Thank you so much.

[A]

So I hope you enjoy that episode of Uncensored CMO as much as I enjoyed making it. Now, by the way, I've got a new newsletter, so if you'd like to get my thoughts on the One Thing that I take out from each episode every week, then do subscribe to the One Thing newsletter. I'd really appreciate it. Also, I have another podcast just launched, Uncensored Renegades, with the fabulous Corey Marchisoto. She is one of the world's best CMOs. She's an absolute rock star. Every week we pick one topic, spend 20 minutes trying to fix it. So check out that it's in your feed. Uncensored Renegades. And finally, I want to give a huge thank you to my sponsor, System One. They generously provide so much support for this podcast, it would not happen without them. So big thanks and lots of love to System One. I'll see you next time.