A (3:54)

Thought.

B (3:55)

There are people like a board of directors in a corporate environment that help you see around corners, point out blind spots, talk you through rough patches and spots. And this is not people you're gonna call every day. These are people you're gonna call when you're going through a thing. So let's pick a thing. You need to negotiate a salary. There is somebody on your personal board of directors who is killer at negotiating a salary. You're going to call that person and say, hey, this is what's going on. This is what I'm going to do. They're going to give you advice. They're going to rehearse with you. They're going to be your sounding board, and they're going to get you better prepared for that moment. There's another person you're going to call when you want to make a career change. There's another person you're going to call when you're going through some crazy shit you've never been through before. And you're like, oh, my God, I've never seen this movie before. I Know, somebody else has seen this movie before, and I need help going through this movie. So the personal board of directors, the strategy comes from how you assemble them and a couple of things that make a personal board of directors the most advantageous to you. The first one is they are not afraid to call you out on your shit. That is absolutely critical. You can't just have a group of yes people who are gonna be like, you're fantastic, you're wonderful. You're amazing. That's not helpful. That's actually never helpful. But, you know, they're gonna really call you out and be like, hey, I'm gonna hold a mirror up to your face right now. Maybe you're the problem, right? You need somebody who's gonna have that honest candor with you in a way that others may not feel safe or comfortable having with you. Then they're gonna be somebody who, of course, you admire and would want to seek advice from. Because there is something about how they grew their career, what they've accomplished that you really feel is when you look up as a giraffe, you know, looking at the giraffes, hurting your neck, looking up at them, that this person has that. And three, it's gotta be somebody who is willing to do this, who wants to be an advisor for you and contribute to your journey. So my current personal board of directors has about five people on it. I'm not gonna give you an exact number. I would call them each for something different. They all have a genuine care about me and my career.

A (6:21)

Did you intentionally plan who they were? Did you have in your mind? Right, I need someone for this particular thing. Someone for that particular thing. Or has this been like an organic process that over the years you've kind of acquired these people?

B (6:35)

Definitely an organic process. And there are a lot of things that I tell folks all the time when certain things happen. Make sure you write it down. Don't let moments pass you by. Some of those moments are where you encounter people that you're like, wow, this person has something about them that I want to be when I grow up. And that's really important because as you shape who you are as a leader, as you shape who you are as a person, you're taking in a lot of different inputs, and you want to stop time and write down those inputs that, like, really hit you like a spark, brick to forehead almost. And as you engage with those individuals, having that conversation and saying, hey, you know, would you be open every once in a while if I tapped you for this thing? I've never met anybody in my life who said no.

A (7:29)

Well, that's going to be my question, right. Because I imagine someone listening now, the top reason not to do this probably is, well, no one's going to say yes, right? Why would they give up their time to give me some advice? But your experience would suggest the opposite.

B (7:43)

So I'm not calling up a stranger out of nowhere. These are people that have, you know, you know for different reasons or you've encountered at various moments that you've established some sort of relationship with. That doesn't mean they're your best friend. It doesn't mean they're a prior boss. Although prior bosses are great for your personal board of directors.

A (8:10)

Good and bad, they know you. Good and bad.

B (8:12)

That's. That's super critical. And it also doesn't mean that whatever they say is what you do. The idea is to gain different perspectives, to see an issue through different angles. Because very often times you, you have this one switch. You're doing the thing, you're in the thing. And there's a great quote that I heard actually when I was at kindness school during the kindness curriculum, which is, you can't see the mountain you're standing on. And this is so important because you're gonna call somebody who's not on the mountain you're standing on, and they're gonna be able to see this thing from a different angle and a different perspective. So what you're really doing is gathering different perspectives so that you can make a. Well inform.

A (8:59)

You mentioned actually just before as well about the importance of the network. And I think that's something that people feel a bit squeamish about having a network and networking, that sort of thing. But it's so powerful. I remember once I was in, fairly early on in my career, I wanted to get into private equity. And the thing with private equity is like, no one ever tells you how it works. It's private for a reason. Right. And I was thinking, how on earth do I do that? And I met someone who was a reverse headhunter, which I didn't even know existed. But basically you pay them and, and they try and place you in a potential company by sort of pitching you in sort of thing. And I remember having the meeting with her, and she was quite expensive as well. I was sort of thinking, wow, that's a lot of money to pay and I might not get guaranteed a job. But she said something actually, which stuck with me and ends up meaning I didn't ended up working with her. But anyway, she said I bet you anything you like that in your contact list right now is somebody that knows someone in private equity who will open the door for you immediately and get you where you want to go. And I'm like, I'm like. She was called Claire. I was like, claire, I don't believe you. Like, the reason I'm here, Claire, is because I don't have those relationships.

B (10:06)

Yeah.

A (10:07)

And she goes, I bet you do. Anyway, I went, I remember walking out, walked out. She's wrong. So I flicked through, I got to see, I went, Chris. Oh my words. Not only did he had. He just sold his brand to a private equity company in, in the market I was in. Right. He was actually working in my team. He'd been secondary into my. I'm like, he's been under my nose the entire time. And so I remember phoning Chris, this is a random one, mate, but I want to move into private equity. Any advice? He said, I'll send you the three top people in the sectors that you want to work in. He texted me straight away. Within two weeks I was working private equity and I was just like, my mind was blown. I hadn't even thought that the answer might be in the network I already had. And then the two lessons for me there were, firstly, your network is probably more powerful than you think. Just you have to. You said about consciously thinking about the names of the people that could open the doors.

B (11:06)

Absolutely.

A (11:06)

But like tight. And again, linking back to principle, you said before about everyone said yes. I'm amazed that when you reach out and ask somebody, can you help me with my career? No one has ever said no.

B (11:19)

Never, never said never.

A (11:21)

You know, and one thing I started doing as well is, is when I met someone, asked them some advice, said, do you know anybody that might be able to help me in this situation? Even though they're introducing me to somebody that I don't know, the trust that gets transferred from that person to say, oh, you should meet John because he's a good guy and he'll be able to help you out.

B (11:42)

Well, the one thing you also don't want to do on the flip side is take advantage of somebody else's generosity. So even when you think about a personal board of directors, you're not calling them every week. You're thinking about not this day to day operation you're going to. You don't need advice in your day to day. This is big stuff, a moment you've never handled before. Like I said before, or maybe you're stuck and you can't Figure out how to get out. These are more not milestone based moments, but like big, important stuff. It would be taking advantage of somebody if you called them every day about all the little things. That's not what we're talking about here. So I think the key thing when you're thinking about assembling your personal board of directors is it's also gonna change over time. As you change over time and as your career changes over time and you don't want like for example, I have a network of CMOs that is absolutely invaluable for a gazillion different things. I don't only want to get advisement from CMOs because that's too myopic. So on my personal board of directors, I want to make sure that I have a wide range of viewpoints to help me see things on a much broader, bigger scale and to really put it into context of a bigger world around us.

A (13:08)

I think it's also helpful to think about where do you want to go next? Back to your CMO point. You're already a successful CMO, so you're going to get benefit from the CMOs, but that's not necessarily going to be the thing that gets you to wherever you go next. So thinking consciously about where am I going and what, what, you know, what advice and help would I need at the next stage rather than the current stage, could be huge and transformational. And people, and people, as you said, people generally love to be helpful, don't they? I like the way you framed it as you're not asking them to be on the phone every day. Right. And if you, if you just said, would it be okay if in this situation I would ask, you know, I would come and seek your advice only in this situation. You know, in a big, you know, if, you know, in a meaningful situation.

B (13:50)

There's also what you're really doing in all of these moments is habit forming. So if you get in the habit of having a personal board of directors, one, you're being vulnerable. I don't know everything. I don't have all the answers. And I'm going to train the habit of seeking advice. This is really important. So as you're building your career path, you want to make sure that the things that you're actually working toward are building muscle to help you get stronger and stronger along the journey. And this idea of a personal board of directors already starts with thinking about who am I going to assemble in this small group of individuals that is going to help me along my journey? And then you also have to think about what, who can I help along their journey? When somebody asks you one day if you will be on their personal board of directors, you're going to think about the people that supported you. So there's habit forming that is really important. So as you're thinking about all of the different steps you take in your career, think about this like practice. You're practicing, you're building muscles.

A (15:01)

That's a really good example. I had a similar situation when I was working in a soft drink business and I set up an innovation department and what I realized is no one else had done the job. I created this job from scratch and it was, it was a new, new team, new investment. No one else had done that job before. And I felt something I'd never felt in, in my career up to that point, which is loneliness and not automatically having the answer. Whereas before I'd done jobs where I had a peer group, there were other people, oh, how do you do a brand plan or how do you set pricing or, you know, whatever. Suddenly in this, suddenly I had no one to ask. My boss hadn't, you know, hadn't done that before. And I remember reading this amazing book by this guy, Adam Morgan called Eat the Big Fish and it's just so exactly what I was doing. And he actually wrote this other book called the Pirate Inside, which is how to be a challenger within a big organization. And it was exactly what I was doing. And I reached out to Adam and said, oh, would you mind if we caught up basically effectively joining my personal Bratley Matt personal board and, and he, I mean, we're still very close friends today. We still, you know, we did presentation in Cannes last year together. You know, we, you know, we've kept in touch and what was interesting is it became, it ended up becoming two way actually. And he was fascinated because he, because he's, you know, he studies Challenger brands, but he's fascinated by the fact I was being a challenger in a big organization. So he started using me and what I was doing as kind of, you know, case studies for his next book. And so we had this beautiful kind of reciprocal relationship off the back of it. But I just thought, you know, I've ended up building a relationship with a, you know, world renowned author and expert on this particular topic simply because I felt vulnerable and was out of my depth and wanted to help.

B (16:41)

Yeah, well, you want to surround yourself with the thing that you want to be one day and that's what's absolutely critical to your path. And you have to be able to see at moments in which you, you've moved to another stage of the journey. So as a for example, and I actually haven't formally asked my current boss to be on my personal board of directors, but let's just say he's on my personal board of directors and one day if he hears this, he'll probably giggle that I said that. So I'm now serving on a board and this is my first publicly traded company where I'm actually sitting on the board of directors and my boss sits on boards of directors and I've heard that throughout our journey together and he shares examples. And while I have been in our boardroom, the Elf Beauty boardroom, for 26 quarters now, so I know how boards operate. It's very different to be an operator in the business than it is to be a board member. So before my first board meeting, I went to him to seek advice and I sat down and I said exactly what I just said, hey, here's the context and the scenario. I'd love to get your advice as a first time board member. And the advice he gave me was invaluable because he understood the place I was standing, which is, you have to cross the bridge to the other side. You're not the operator, you're not the day to day business leader and you have to learn how to separate yourself into a position of advisor. And if I hadn't sought that advice, I don't think I would have been able to deliver the kind of value that I was able to deliver for the board without having spoken to somebody who's been through that before and who can point you in a good direction out of a genuine place of care. He wants me to be successful. And that's just one example of how critical it is when you face these new moments in your career that you get that advice from other people who've done it before. Not because you're going to do everything they said to you to the letter, write it down as a formula, but because they're going to point you to things that you haven't thought about. And there is nothing I love more than when I say, wow, I haven't thought about it that way before. Those are growth moments and you have to challenge yourself every day to find yourself in that moment. Wow, I never thought about it that way before because that's going to make whatever you're doing richer, deeper and more meaningful.

A (19:11)

I've got a bit of a hypothesis on this. I think the more senior or the further you go in your career, the More that matters because when you're young, you kind of assume, oh, Corey's got it all sorted. She knows everything. And, you know, younger people on your team must look up to you. You've got it all sorted. But you're going through this amazing learning experience, being on a board for the first time. Suddenly you're thinking about the shareholders and your fiduciary responsibilities, all these legal. You know, suddenly you've got the whole legal obligation, haven't you, as well. There's a whole lot of things that. That now you're learning as well. But it's a funny thing in your career, isn't it? Because I've certainly, I've. I certainly feel that I'm learning more now than when I was in my 20s. And also, there's less. It's. It's, you know, there's. There's less of a playbook that, you know, when you start out that you do a job in this way and there's a framework and, you know, you follow them, follow the guidebook, and that's kind of thing. And I just find it gets less clear the more you get up. You look around going, how does this work?

B (20:09)

Yeah, it's really true. And I think being humble enough to recognize that you are in what is uncharted territory for yourself and seeking that advice. So that when you walk in, you feel like, I may not have been here before, but I have advice on my shoulders that is gonna give me the confidence that I need to walk in here and be able to stand and deliver and to command the space you occupy. And that's really important because if you think about walking in completely raw, I know nothing. Maybe I could have studied on my own versus, Hey, I checked in with a few people who've done this before. There's a level of confidence that you now have that you know what it is you're walking into. So it takes away a little bit of the fear factor of starting your first day of school.

A (21:01)

There you go. So everyone listening. If you can do one thing, think about who would be your personal board of directors and reach out to them. And based on your experience, Corey, I think it's a very good chance they're going to say yes, and you'll look back and be very grateful that that happened for sure. So, from Corey Marchisoto myself, thank you so much for listening and watching Twon Sense and Renegades. We genuinely, genuinely hope that you enjoyed this conversation. Now, we do have one little request. We would love it if you could leave us a review. Reviews are so important to other people discovering this show. So wherever you get your podcast from, go and drop us a review. We would really appreciate it. Thank you.