Unchained Podcast, Ep. 980:

Bits + Bips: What Could Spark the Next Crypto Bull Cycle?

Date: December 16, 2025
Host: Laura Shin
Panelists: Austin Campbell, Chris Perkins, Rahm Al Awalia
Guest: Elizabeth Kirby (Tradeweb)

Overview

In this dynamic roundtable, the Bits + Bips co-hosts join Elizabeth Kirby of Tradeweb to explore the intersection of traditional finance (TradFi) and crypto, regulatory gridlock in Washington, and what could spark the next crypto bull cycle. The conversation tackles U.S. crypto market structure legislation, recent institutional forays into tokenized assets, the battle of blockchain infrastructure (Ethereum vs. Canton vs. Solana), and macro forces affecting both crypto and broader markets. The episode is ripe with industry insights, candid skepticism, and sharp commentary about mainstream media, politics, and where blockchain is truly gaining traction.

Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. U.S. Crypto Market Structure Legislation: Delays and Debates

[01:56–13:33]

• Senate Banking Committee has delayed crypto market structure legislation into the new year. The panelists express little surprise, citing the bill’s complexity and political distractions.

  • Chris Perkins [02:25]:

    "This maniacal focus on Donald Trump ethics... is stopping everything. Additional issues maybe around DeFi... Citadel came out really hard against some of the DeFi provisions. Citadel is amazing in D.C. and so there are battles everywhere."

  • Elizabeth Kirby [04:14]:

    "There are vastly different degrees of knowledge and understanding of these markets by the people who are kind of tasked with pushing it through."

  • The group agrees modularizing the legislation (breaking it into less controversial pieces) may be the only way forward.

  • Key regulatory wish: Clear taxonomy defining securities vs. commodities to open the "institutional door.”

  • Elizabeth Kirby [06:09]:

    "Some of those more traditional guys are just going to want a little bit more clarity and certainty than what we have so far."

2. Institutional Adoption: What Will it Take?

[05:54–07:54]

• Institutions are dipping into tokenization and crypto-native custody, but major players wait for regulatory clarity.
• Crypto-native providers continue to grow; the real inflection will be when traditional financial giants enter en masse.

3. Market Structure, Politics & Media Framing

[12:52–21:25]

• The panel tackles a recent New York Times article praising the Biden SEC, countering that enforcement under Gary Gensler was often misdirected and ineffective.

  • Austin Campbell [16:41]:

    "The Biden SEC systematically missed or failed to interdict every single major crypto fraud one after another... At the same time, they spent a huge amount of political capital destroying... a decentralized library project, an NFT project... went after Coinbase, Kraken, et cetera, none of whom were alleged to have done anything wrong to users."

  • Chris Perkins [19:58]:

    "The biggest issue I have right now is the polarization and the politicalization of crypto. It makes no sense to me... this is like the most progressive technology out there and they're more in favor of the way things are, which I just don't get."

4. JP Morgan’s Foray Into Tokenized Money Market Funds

[22:13–29:35]

• JP Morgan launches a tokenized money market fund on Ethereum ("Moni"), marking a significant move from a bank-regulated institution.

  • Chris Perkins [25:41]:

    "When you have one of your biggest competitors run by a guy named Larry Fink, saying, I'm tokenizing everything -- well, he probably has a reason for doing that... If BlackRock's doing it and you're not, you're going to get left behind."

  • Elizabeth Kirby [28:38]:

    "Our general thesis is to offer the full suite of products that our customers and or potential customers would want to trade. So we are engaged with all of these tokenized money market fund issuers today... the repo trades that we've done, the collateral leg has been a tokenized T bill. But could that be a tokenized money market fund? Sure, definitely could be."

• Discussion of money market fund tokenization as "table stakes" for asset managers and collateral efficiency use cases (e.g., settlements, sweeps, derivatives margining).

5. Stablecoins, Chains, and Wall Street’s Blockchain Preferences

[29:35–32:18]

• Tradeweb sees stablecoins as a "massive, massive opportunity," with anticipated demand from traditional institutions for robust liquidity pools.

  • Chris Perkins [30:49]:

    "The thing I'll note about this subject guys, is that it was done on Ethereum. And we've talked about how Ethereum... is very appealing to Wall Street because of its ten years of history."

• Elizabeth Kirby notes: Tradeweb’s own onchain activities have so far been on the permissioned Canton network, not Ethereum—reflecting institutional comfort with privacy and regulatory alignment.

6. Eth vs. Canton vs. Solana: The Infrastructure Wars

[32:18–49:55]

• Panelists analyze the competition and coexistence of Ethereum, Canton (permissioned for TradFi), and Solana (retail focus + high throughput).

  • Rahm Al Awalia [32:18]:

    "Canton Network is going after that same use case [as Ethereum] from the largest players in the land. So it's yet more intensification of competition."

  • Austin Campbell [34:10]:

    "I'm strongly of the opinion there will be multiple winners as you look at transaction preferences across markets. These things are not monolithic..."

• Large TradFi institutions may prefer permissioned/privacy-first chains like Canton; retail and HFT-oriented players are more drawn to Solana.

• Solana’s challenge: Has product-market fit with meme coins and retail, but needs to court serious derivatives and institutional use to fully claim "decentralized Nasdaq" ambitions.

• Debate on whether the future’s most dominant chain has even been created yet.

7. Macro Forces, Crypto Markets & What’s Next

[49:55–57:53]

• Crypto prices are underperforming; value and "boring" stocks are in vogue.

  • Rahm Al Awalia [50:48]:

    "The common theme is intensification of competition, which is the enemy of profits... What you're seeing is a movement from high beta to the opposite of high beta. So if crypto is intangible, no free cash flow, high beta, animal spirits... the exact opposite: Comcast. Comcast, that's, that's moving."

• Money continues to flow from high-beta crypto into value/old-economy stocks.

• Panel expects a catalyst for crypto may require the current rotation to exhaust itself and legislative/regulatory uncertainties to resolve.

  • Elizabeth Kirby [55:57]:

    "If you are of the opinion, which I am, that as and when and I'm still saying when and not if we can get all this sort of legislative stuff ironed out. We’re going to see significant institutional influence with the crypto space in the United States that just don't exist right now. And that's going to fundamentally change how these markets operate..."

• Chris Perkins [56:46]: > "The flipping: institutions and retail still licking their wounds from 10/10. Seriously. I was calling around this week, and I don't think people understand how many people got hurt. Market makers, just like it is really hurting liquidity and risk... [but] it gets repaired in time."

Notable Quotes & Moments

• On missed frauds and misdirected enforcement:

  "Random guessing would have hit more targets among the bad guys than what the SEC did..." —Austin Campbell [16:41]

• On political polarization and innovation:

  "It's shameful, but the biggest issue that I have right now is the polarization and the politicalization of crypto. It makes no sense to me... this is like the most progressive technology out there and they're more in favor of the way things are, which I just don't get." —Chris Perkins [19:58]

• On banking industry arguments over interest:

  "Not being able to pay interest in a modern market is uncompetitive and renders our products unusable." —Austin Campbell [11:19, citing historical bank arguments]

• On chain competition:

  "Canton is a credible bid for the TradFi chain use case." —Rahm Al Awalia [42:40]

• On the future of crypto infrastructure:

  "Do we think the blockchain that will have the most financial transactions 30 years from now has even been created yet?" —Austin Campbell [49:55]

Timestamps for Important Segments

• [01:56–13:33]: U.S. market structure legislation delays, modular approach debate; regulatory clarity needs.
• [22:13–29:35]: JP Morgan tokenized money market fund—what it means.
• [32:18–39:00]: Infrastructure wars: Ethereum, Canton, and the future of onchain TradFi.
• [45:07–49:55]: Solana’s evolution, HFT and meme coin niches, can it win institutions?
• [49:55–57:53]: Macro outlook: why crypto markets may be stuck; what needs to change.

Original Tone

The roundtable is energetic, inside-baseball, and often irreverent. The hosts and guest freely critique policymakers, media, and even crypto’s own hype cycles, but also maintain a deep respect for the technical and business challenges facing blockchain adoption. They move fluidly between intricate policy debates, market analysis, and on-the-ground institutional realities.

Summary Takeaways

• The next crypto bull cycle isn’t likely until regulatory certainty is achieved and/or the current macro rotation runs its course.
• Tokenization of real-world assets is quickly moving from experiment to requirement among institutional asset managers.
• The battle for blockchain infrastructure will have several winners—some serving privacy-focused TradFi needs (Canton), others retail and high-frequency traders (Solana), with Ethereum holding the "Lindy" edge across the board.
• Mainstream media and political narratives remain far behind, often missing the nuance and changes actually occurring within the industry.
• Despite setbacks, panelists share an underlying optimism that when regulation catches up, the doors to a new wave of institutional and retail adoption will swing open.

[End of Summary]