Gort (2:53)

Doug, take a take. Take it first.

Doug Kolkatt (2:56)

Well, I wasn't. I wasn't convinced by the Trump coin, but the Melania coin came out. It was all in. All in on Melania. So, no, I think. I think that the second one really sold it. I. I didn't know they were in on it till both of the couple. It's really. When husband and wife are both in it, it's shows dedication to the space.

Gort (3:16)

Yeah, I think it was sort of. Well, first of all, like, obviously, we've now seen the secondary and tertiary effects of this, and a lot of people think that that was, like, very clearly the beginning of the end and it nuked all liquidity out of everything. But I do think, in all seriousness, I know we're not supposed to be serious, but that was the first. Well, yeah, I would say that was the first. Like, in my mind, it was, like, very elucidating where obviously leading up to Trump's election, it was, like, quite clear why, you know, crypto needed to align itself. Like, I think it was sort of make or break, and I think crypto realized that to. To some extent with, like, getting on board with somebody who wasn't going to destroy this industry, because I think we were at sort of a tipping point where if somebody in office wasn't willing to kind of, like, create positive regulation on the space, like, it was not looking good. But I think that the. The subsequent, like, meme coin and just the degree to which he has gone, like, full balls deep into crypto has been extremely. I mean, it was like, oh, my God, like, no way. Right. And so that, to me, like, it. Not to say that, it was just, you know, like, I don't know, I. I felt convinced that, you know, he was going to be involved in some capacity, but I don't think I expected this, and I certainly did not. I mean, the Melania one was like, truly, like, oh, no. Like, this could actually get really, really bad.

Doug Kolkatt (4:40)

Was literally the day before inauguration day. It was like the night before inauguration day, wasn't it? It was like. It wasn't just even releasing a coin. It was like, right before I'm president, I'm gonna.

Laura Shin (4:50)

Yeah. So Trump did it on Friday night, and then Melania did it Sunday, and then inauguration was Monday. But gourd. I mean, what are you saying here? Like, I think Melania, like, I, Like Doug said, that's what sold it. I Think that probably is what made Doug a true believer.

Doug Kolkatt (5:07)

Yeah. You know. Yeah. So Melania is a, is a dedicated Dev.

Gort (5:11)

Well first of all, like who were they working with? Right. Because didn't. So correct me if I'm wrong. And now we're kind of all like.

Laura Shin (5:18)

I think they were working our. With our favorite Hayden Davis. Hayden and all of crypto.

Gort (5:24)

So. But also wasn't this the night of that ball thing they had and it was at like a random hour. Right. And Seoul went to an all time high because it's. Because there was just so much demand to buy Trump coin.

Laura Shin (5:35)

I mean so the one like serious point is amazingly soul did not go down and it all worked perfectly. And so so it, it was a gift to the industry to have this like surprise, big test. And. And yeah, Solana passed.

Doug Kolkatt (5:53)

So.

Laura Shin (5:55)

Yeah. Okay. Okay. So we can move on I think to the next event because we are going to talk about our favorite Hayden in crypto, Hayden Davis, who was part of the esteemed Libra coin and launch. So yeah, I'd like to hear your guys thoughts on that event.

Gort (6:14)

That was like honestly even more ridiculous. And the. Then afterwards, what. What were the shows he went on and just was rambling.

Doug Kolkatt (6:23)

Oh no.

Gort (6:24)

Almost incoherent.

Doug Kolkatt (6:26)

And this, the sweater. The let's let you wear your shoulders every day.

Laura Shin (6:32)

His head.

Gort (6:35)

But it's really like, it's extremely. I mean like this is outrageous that every single lawyer in the world would have told him like do not say a word. And he went on and said very many words. And it doesn't seem like thus far there's been any repercussions.

Doug Kolkatt (6:53)

Yeah, it's in Tokyo, right? At like the Amman. At the Amman right now at the buffet. I think he was.

Laura Shin (7:02)

Yeah, he and SBF must have the same lawyer giving them advice on.

Gort (7:06)

Yeah, but SBF is in jail and it doesn't seem like this kid's in jail, right?

Laura Shin (7:11)

No, no, no. But you know, the Samurai Wallet developer is now. So I think that's there's a lesson in there for somebody to learn. I don't know what it is, but.

Gort (7:23)

The lesson has not really been taught. I'll be honest. Like if he's just walking around the Amman in Tokyo, it doesn't. I. I don't know. Wasn't there some for. I mean this probably just crypto, Twitter making stuff up. But there was like something about, you know, Interpol or you know, some type of. You know, it's. The people who enforced the rules were Argentina.

Doug Kolkatt (7:44)

They said like the Argentine government was Going to go. It was like the enemy of the state of Argent or something. And they were putting out like.

Laura Shin (7:53)

So it is true that an attorney requested an Interpol red notice for Davis and it's. It's an attorney in Argentina, but I don't know if that means that, like, that actually happened.

Gort (8:04)

So I mean, the crazy part is that with like, all of us sitting here and you know, having. I'm not trying to slander or say anything, like, too derogatory, but, like, it does seem like he pulled off this massive heist of sorts, and none of us. It doesn't seem like readily apparent that he necessarily did anything illegal. Like, I don't. I mean, I don't know for a fact that what he did was illegal. Like, that's what. That's the crazy part to me is that, like, I'm sitting here, I'm like, yeah, well, maybe this was just, you know, your. Your standard pump fun launch and there's like, everybody knew what they were getting themselves into. Right?

Laura Shin (8:40)

I mean, yeah, I. I like, yeah. Whether or not it's legal, that that is. Yeah, that's probably actually not a decided.

Doug Kolkatt (8:49)

Thing is Melee tweeted from his main account, right. It was like, this is my. And then he came back is like, this is not my coin.

Laura Shin (8:57)

Well, I think he said that this was like, it was going to benefit Argentina in some way. I forget, like, he thought he was promoting a business or that's what he claimed. Like he thought he was promoting something that was beneficial for Argentina.

Doug Kolkatt (9:11)

But I. Yeah, I mean, I just, I. I still don't know, like, the inside story of how. How he got to the print. Like, this guy Hayden got to the president of Argentina and convinced him to launch. Yeah. Launch a coin. Like there. Ultimately something weird happened there.

Gort (9:29)

He was like, drop shipping sneakers the year before and. And now he's launching like, you know, coins with the world leaders. Like this literals or sliders.

Doug Kolkatt (9:39)

Yeah, yeah.

Laura Shin (9:40)

Must have been his impressive shoulder pads. Like, that's all I think of that is built.

Doug Kolkatt (9:45)

Nobody can match it.

Laura Shin (9:47)

Okay. Okay. So next event that we're going to talk about, it's going to seem a little serious, but there's no way we can avoid it. The Bybit hack, which was the biggest hack, I think, in the whole entire world, in all of history. And yeah, it involves our favorite developers in crypto, the DPRK developers. I'm such a fan girl. What are your takes on that?

Doug Kolkatt (10:18)

Yeah, I think it was, I mean, it was pretty wild how. Right. Like they had to override Was it Gnosis Safe? Or maybe it was actually. They were getting them to sign different things.

Laura Shin (10:30)

They. Yeah, they had, like, they had over. They had compromised one of the Gnosis Safe developers, and that allowed them to change something in, like, AWS or whatever and then change it.

Doug Kolkatt (10:43)

Yeah. Oh, yeah, that's right. Right, right, right. Yeah, they. Yeah, they were able to display, like, the wrong thing and the. The signature. I'm. I mean, it just. I mean, like, you know, I've been on a multi sig of a protocol, and it's just like. It's like at some point you're like, am I being too paranoid? Like, I have separate machines. I like, you know, everything's air gap. Like, I double check, like, three different machines that the signatures are right, and it's like, no. Well, like, I mean, it's just the level of paranoia is, like, crazy. You have to be on, like, any sort of multi sig signer.

Laura Shin (11:15)

I mean, all I can say is I think those developers probably, like, in Korea or in North Korea, which people probably know if you get punished and then the next three generations of your family can also receive the same punishment, like, if you get sent to the Gulag, then the next three generations will be born in the Gulag. And, yeah, maybe the next few generations of these developers will be sitting pretty in North Korea just, you know, getting, like, palm fronds, fanning their faces all day. But I did also want to ask, so. Oh, the other thing that was so crazy to me about that hack was that they didn't do a test transaction. They moved.

Doug Kolkatt (11:55)

Oh, yeah.

Laura Shin (11:56)

Like, what. What was it, like, $2 billion or something? Like, just with a single. I was just like, what the. Like, like, they just had. And then. And then they were like, okay, we're going to cover it with our. With our profits. Like, they just have so much money.

Doug Kolkatt (12:09)

One thing.

Gort (12:09)

Yeah, Sorry to interrupt, but I was thinking one thing. This isn't so much funny, but after the hack, the CEO was, like, on a live stream. It's like everybody, you know now uses the immediate, like, go on a live stream or go on some podcast. But he was on a live stream, like, maybe six hours afterwards. And I remember thinking at the time, like, man, this is either gonna be one of those things where we look back and we're like, oh. Like, this was the end of him and Bybit. But I will say I was, like, quite impressed. I mean, he seemed, you know, pretty honest and direct in his kind of, you know, pr. And they've worked everything out. So I Will say, like, I was quite impressed with Bybit being able to cover this. And like, overall the, the comms were quite good around it. And I. The reason I say this is like astonishing because I very much thought. I remember watching him and he was like getting questions from the chat, right? Like, just like randoms, you know, asking questions.

Doug Kolkatt (13:04)

Threat guy, which lives.

Gort (13:05)

No, it wasn't threat guy. He was just like, they, they did like a, you know, an in house, like, chat. Like, I'm gonna, I'm gonna do a live stream answer and then I'm gonna do like a live Q and A. And I remember at the time being like, okay, this is, this scene. This feels like very spf. Like not, you know, not to be too sort of doomer, but I was like, man, exactly, exactly. And we're all going to look back and be like, exactly. That's what I'm saying. Like, that's. I think that was my point though, because, like, if there was times when SBF did pretty well, right? Like, he came across like this, you.

Doug Kolkatt (13:34)

Know, Dig, if you were a crypto.

Laura Shin (13:35)

Person and understood anything, then, then you wouldn't think so. But maybe to a non crypto person.

Gort (13:41)

Okay, like I'm saying, prior to ftx, SBF had, prior to the collapse, SBF had this like, endearing like, oh, he's just smarter than all of us. He gets it. Like, you know, let, let him be. And even if he's a bit quirky, but he would do these, you know, interviews and stuff and come across a little bit, you know, weird or, you know, like condescending. But it was like, oh, that's sbf. Right? So, but my point was with the, with the Bybit hack thing was like, it was the same like the V front and center, man, like answering questions from the public, engaging. And it's like, okay, this could either go really well or really poorly. And like, all things considered, like, it's. It's turned out quite well. Right?

Doug Kolkatt (14:17)

His lawyers definitely told him, don't do that.

Gort (14:20)

Right. Well, you would have thought Hayden's lawyers would have told him not to. Data.

Laura Shin (14:24)

Yeah. So basically, Ben, if you're listening and the whole Bybit exchange thing doesn't work out, you have a very promising future in crisis communications. I think that's the takeaway. All right. Okay, next topic. Let's talk about the XRP and Cardano Reserve. That trump floated on Twitter, which I think, yeah, got a collective groan from crypto. Except for certain more diluted subgroups within crypto. I'd be interested to hear Your thoughts on that one?

Doug Kolkatt (15:01)

Well, I know Gort's a big xrp XRP fan, so, I mean, it's like the most patent. Right?

Gort (15:08)

I don't. I don't know. I don't want to use the wrong terminology here by something like pay for play. I don't know how else to describe it. Right. Like, intense lobbying. It's everybody. So this was another thing where we all get behind Trump as this, like, somebody who's going to, you know, lead crypto to the promised land. And then, like, this is what ends up happening. It's kind of like, oof. Like, I don't know about this. And. Yeah, that I remember them tweeting that. Right. And how did that even come out? And he. It was.

Laura Shin (15:43)

Trump literally just tweeted it straight from his truth social profile, like, out of the blue, like, like. And not only that, but he didn't mention Bitcoin or ether. It was xrp, Solana, and Cardano.

Doug Kolkatt (15:58)

That.

Laura Shin (15:59)

Those were the three named in the tweet.

Doug Kolkatt (16:01)

That was the beginning of the end for Eth. I think that was the top.

Gort (16:06)

Cardano got the nudge. They got a nod.

Doug Kolkatt (16:09)

Got it. Not Eth. Sorry. Not peer reviewed enough.

Gort (16:13)

Well, it's also coming, too, because. Go ahead.

Doug Kolkatt (16:16)

It's funny because it's like, right? Like, a lot of people who aren't in crypto are like, just think, oh, crypto's all, like, scammy, like, vaporware, whatever. And then there are, like, people in crypto who, like, probably think some of these coins are like, okay, this is not, like, real crypto. But, you know, it's kind of. It's kind of like maybe a taste of our, you know, a taste of what other people outside crypto kind of probably view all of Trump and crypto, or at least kind of the skeptics.

Gort (16:43)

Well, also, you have to understand that. And I. This isn't, you know, like, this isn't necessarily my thought. I think a lot of people have kind of, you know, said this before, but crypto, outside of crypto, Twitter actually is a lot of XRP and a lot of Cardano.

Doug Kolkatt (16:58)

Right?

Gort (16:59)

Like, we make this joke about the Uber drivers. Like, for some reason, they love XRP and they love Cardano. Like, these groups of coins that none of us really talk about on a daily basis. Most of us don't follow. Most of us think are largely vaporware, are, like, somehow resonating with the American people or, like, some of the American people. Right? So it's one of those things, I think, where, like, it was especially jarring for us because, like, we're like, hang on, you didn't even include bitcoin or eth. And those are the things we talk about all the time. But if you're trying to reach mass, you know, audience with these things, like, yeah, it probably is not a bad idea to pump the coins or, you know, show support for the coins that the taxi drivers like, or whatever the trope is.

Laura Shin (17:41)

Yeah. But actually, the reason he did that. I don't know if you guys remember this. Politico came out with a news article explaining. Explaining how that tweet got tweeted. And it was something like, the Ripple lobbyist got him to do that and somehow did it. Like. Like, they had. They persuaded him to do it the night before, and it sort of bypassed the normal checks on his tweets. And not only that, but that in the tweet, the reason that Solana was included was to make it seem more legitimate to crypto people. Like, literally, Solana, they had. They did not lobby at all for anything even remotely related to that, and they were as shocked as anybody else that they were included. But, like, Ripple apparently wanted Solana to be in the tweet to make it look more legit, so.

Doug Kolkatt (18:31)

Well, I mean, obviously, obviously, you took an Uber the night before, got talking to the driver, and he was. He was built.

Laura Shin (18:40)

So I guess the XRP and Cardano communities have to thank their. Their, you know, their emissary and the Uber driver, which I'm sure the Secret Service loved that President Trump took an Uber.

Doug Kolkatt (18:51)

Skin some pizza late at night Friday, grab an Uber.

Laura Shin (18:58)

Okay. Okay, next topic. Lighthouse Crypto Summit, which had this glorious presentation of, like, something related to FIFA in addition to talking about crypto. You know, a lot of interesting people there. You know, some real legit people in crypto. Obviously a 16Z Coinbase, Gemini chainlink there. There were others as well. Brad Garlinghouse was there. Yeah. Curious for your thoughts. And let's not forget the FIFA bit.

Doug Kolkatt (19:32)

I actually don't remember the FIFA bit. What happened?

Gort (19:35)

I think, like, the. I. If I recall correctly, we were all trying to watch this live stream, and the whole first, like, 30 minutes was him doing this. Was there going to be, like, a FIFA coin as well? Is, like, something it had. It was, like, adjacent to crypto, or was it just with regards to the World cup stuff? I just remember watching this and, like, it was all about the FIFA thing for the first 30 minutes.

Laura Shin (19:55)

So he pitched the idea of a FIFA coin, but he also, like, unveiled what was it He. I think he unveiled like a, you know. Yeah.

Doug Kolkatt (20:07)

What.

Laura Shin (20:07)

What was that? It was like a statue. Ish thing or. I don't know. Yeah, unfortunately, I didn't like, re. Watch it for this episode, but don't you remember he, like, had this thing on his table and it was like gold. Yeah. And.

Doug Kolkatt (20:21)

Oh, is this. So you felt like a gold brick or something? I vaguely remember this, yeah.

Laura Shin (20:30)

Yeah. It's unfortunate that I didn't get a chance to. Oh, it was like a World cup trophy.

Doug Kolkatt (20:36)

Oh, that's right. Yeah.

Laura Shin (20:38)

Yes.

Doug Kolkatt (20:39)

They ever come out with FIFA coin or is that. That's still in development.

Gort (20:43)

That's in the works.

Doug Kolkatt (20:46)

A lot of tech needed to figure.

Laura Shin (20:47)

Out some research development, so at least. So we pitched the idea, but then I think there was like an unrelated FIFA coin that took off. So, like. Yeah, he. He mentioned this, but then the actual coin that took off because of it was not actually related to FIFA. It just had the name.

Doug Kolkatt (21:06)

Oh, it just had the name FIFA.

Gort (21:08)

That's your standard pump fund there.

Doug Kolkatt (21:11)

That was that Hayden again was that of another Hayden Special Pump Fun meets.

Laura Shin (21:15)

White House Crypto Summit. Okay. Okay, well, so now we're going to talk about something that was actually like, significant crypto news, in my opinion, which really started in 2024. And it was the success of Hyper Liquid and that, you know, has kind of become like a category definer. We've seen, like, so many new entrants come to compete in that space because of Hyper Liquid success. And, you know, despite how so many other crypto projects have done, HyperLiquid is in a position where it pretty much still has, like, nearly all the true believers I think that it had. And yeah, so there's so many phases of. Of their 2025 that we could talk about. There was the scandal around the centralization and the bridge security where Taylor Monahan was pointing out, hey, you guys, like, North Korean. You know, people are using your protocol and they're clearly trying to figure out how to hack it. Then, you know, there were a few different things with, like, Arthur Hayes, you know, initially buying a bunch and then selling a bunch because of the unlocks, you know, the whole James Wynn arc and then the fight with CZ in. In tweets. Yeah. Then there's been a whole bunch of competitors. We will talk about 10, 10 later, but yeah. Any thoughts on any aspect of HyperLiquid's arc in 2025?

Gort (22:39)

Doug, you're the.

Doug Kolkatt (22:40)

I mean, we feel like it was a very cynical, cynical year. Right. Like, especially it got More cynical as the year went on. And you know, Hyper Liquid is the one coin where people kind of weren't cynical about maybe, maybe. Maybe even just like just the past couple weeks, people have been kind of getting frustrated. But, but other like, it's kind of, kind of amazing in terms of like, I can't think of another coin this year, maybe btc, where people are like, as, like non critical of it. With, with. With good reason.

Laura Shin (23:12)

Yeah. Or maybe zcash.

Doug Kolkatt (23:14)

Zcash. Yeah. No, that's true.

Laura Shin (23:17)

Gore, what are your thoughts on hyper liquids arc?

Gort (23:21)

I don't know that I have anything especially profound to add. I think what they've done is remarkable. They should be, you know, showing that you can make money, I think was as crazy as it sounds, pretty profound in a sense. The buybacks and the way that, that hyperliquid generates fees and turns out around and, and creates value, I think was. There was somewhat of a paradigm shift with hyperliquid. And I think this revenue meta, which is obviously hilarious to anybody outside of our industry listening. Right, like the revenue meta, you mean just how markets and businesses work. But for, for crypto is like one of the first, I think really widespread and sort of like, you know, it was, it was an example of something like, okay, this is like a way that application can make money and turn around and, and you know, create value in it. In its token, I think the secondary effects of that have been quite good, at least in terms of how we're now thinking about it. So I'm very impressed with Hyper Liquid. Obviously, it's a competitive space. Doug's competing. I'm not competing, but everybody else I know is competing. So Yeah, I don't. I'm the Joey Perk Dex. Yeah. Yeah. Would immediately supplant Fogo or whatever it's called. I think that the, like, with regards to Jelly. Jelly thing, that is not, it's not ideal. Also, the way they handled it maybe makes a lot of sense for users of the protocol. With that said, you know, you look at that from the outside and you see a very low liquidity coin that can be, you know, manipulated and then the rules kind of changed to undo the manipulation. It's like it. Yeah, that's. It's a slight, you know, stain on.

Doug Kolkatt (25:28)

On.

Gort (25:29)

I, I'm not. And again, I'm not saying they necessarily handle it wrong, but, you know, those things like, do show there's still room for improvement perhaps.

Laura Shin (25:36)

Yeah, it's at least against the crypto ethos, I think for me, like, what I have thought was hilarious was there was different memes that have gone around about Jeff and cz and there's like, random things that I've seen where people will tweet, like, photos of Jeff and they'll like, just make like, I. So I don't remember exactly when this was or what this was, but there was a. A photo of Jeff kind of like just sitting probably like in an audience somewhere. And he was sort of leaning back and then he had his legs and shorts and they were sort of stretched out. And you know, he's like a. Like an athletic guy. And like, he said something about, like, his legs being like, you know, whatever, like something about the athleticism of his legs and how that gave him confidence and hyper. I forget the exact tweet, but the reason I mentioned this is because then later you had these tweets where CZ would be, like, doing push ups or whatever. People would, like, put an image of Jeff, like, behind see, like. Like CZ like, like lurking behind him, like, watching him do his push ups or whatever. And I just thought those were so funny. And yeah, there is something to this whole, like, Jeff versus CZ arc that I find hilarious. And like, the memes.

Doug Kolkatt (26:54)

J. He does look like a trustworthy guy. Like, if.

Laura Shin (26:58)

Are you same C.

Doug Kolkatt (27:01)

No, no comment on that. But no, I don't know. It's also. I mean, Jeff. Jeff is interesting, like, how, like, how he handles kind of comms and stuff, right? Like, he's very much kind of different than a lot of founders where, you know, he's, you know, less. Less is more. He doesn't say a ton, but, like, what he does say, I think kind of, you know, it is clear and people trust him a lot. So, you know, it works because they have a lot of credibility, obviously.

Laura Shin (27:26)

Yeah, yeah. Kane, on a recent show of ours on Easy Money, he said that he liked to see that Jeff was being more proactive on the timeline and, like, yeah, not. Not being as aloof. Okay, you guys, I just have to ask you about the whole James Wynn arc. Do you think that, like, who do you think James Wynn was? And I know we all eventually heard him talk on infamous Twitter spaces, and that was alarming, but what. Because I don't know if you remember, there was a period where the rumor was like, it was a CC alt. So what is, like, what did you think of that whole thing?

Doug Kolkatt (28:06)

I really just. The. The voice, I like. I don't. It's just that that Twitter space when he came on was. I mean, it was obviously drunk or something. Right. Like, it was. I don't know.

Laura Shin (28:22)

I mean, he is British, so, I.

Doug Kolkatt (28:24)

Mean, he, like, lost it on. He's more than British. He's more than just, okay, aggressively British.

Gort (28:29)

Yeah.

Doug Kolkatt (28:31)

I don't know. He. Yeah. I don't know. It feels like. Like, it does seem like people were. I. I think with ct, a lot of times, like, people want to look for, like, a hero, and it's like. Like a trader hero. Like, this guy, like, knows what he's doing. He generates alpha. And, like, at the end of the day, I don't know how many people CT looks up to actually generate alpha. Or they just take. Maybe zero. They just take. Right. They're just gamblers. Right. And it's just whoever's had the hottest run at the table in the past, whatever, six months. So I don't know, it just seems like a recurring thing where it's like, okay, CT picks a hero, like, thinks he's amazing, and then, you know, kind of ends up your hero's passed out on the front lawn with his pants over his head.

Laura Shin (29:12)

Yeah. At that point, though, he was trying to do other things to make money, which, like, he was taking donations and.

Gort (29:22)

Dude, he did it.

Doug Kolkatt (29:23)

He.

Gort (29:23)

He had a meme coin.

Doug Kolkatt (29:24)

Right?

Gort (29:24)

What was the meme coin called? He had a meme coin. Oh, man.

Doug Kolkatt (29:27)

Like a.

Gort (29:27)

Like a.

Doug Kolkatt (29:28)

A pump blunt.

Gort (29:29)

Yeah. Oh, yeah, it was very much so. A meme coin. Yeah. The whole thing was quite bizarre. I mean, he's, like, throwing around a billion dollars in size and then is pumping a meme coin with, like, $30 million market cap. It didn't really. Well, it should have maybe keyed people into whether or not this guy was, like, a gigabrain trader or just, like, was running super hot. Right. But, yeah, I tend to agree. It's like the hottest guy at the table. Crypto Twitter tends to coalesce around, and then they realize that it was just, you know, running way above expectation for a certain amount of time.

Doug Kolkatt (30:06)

Like.

Gort (30:06)

Oh, hang on, now.

Doug Kolkatt (30:09)

Yeah. I mean, see who the next one is.

Laura Shin (30:13)

Yeah. But it's not only that he had the meme coin, he did something else, which I can't remember. It was to make money, but initially he was, like, soliciting the donations, and then it was something like, he.

Doug Kolkatt (30:27)

Did he get any. How much did he get donated to him? Oh, my goodness.

Laura Shin (30:31)

He did get some donations.

Doug Kolkatt (30:34)

Who is the person donating to James Wynn? I wanna. That's. You should have that person on as a guest. The guy who donated money to James Wynn. Yeah.

Gort (30:45)

But the interesting thing too about that was, correct me if I'm wrong, but he was at one point, I don't know if you remember this dog, but he was up. He was like actually up. Was it like over a hundred million, right?

Doug Kolkatt (30:57)

I was over a hundred.

Gort (30:58)

Yeah, yeah. And so at that point, like, that's an amount of money where you really can just move to an island forever. You know what I mean? And so I think the, the actual like part of the, part of the allure there was just the actual like nominal size was very, you know, was like, whoa, this is, this is real money, right? It just to all go down to zero.

Doug Kolkatt (31:21)

It's like, hang on, like if you keep betting the farm, you're going to lose the farm. It's just like.

Laura Shin (31:28)

Yeah, yeah. A good cautionary tale for crypto this year. I'm not sure how many people learned that lesson before. 10, 10. But anyway. Okay, okay. What about the EF turnaround or Ethereum turnaround? Um, obviously 2024 was a period of pain in my opinion, for Ethereum. The community kind of had a revolt. Um, some people might be mad at me for saying that even though the Ethereum community was very loud on the timeline, I'm just reporting the facts. They were demanding, you know, that the leadership change. There was a lot of pointed commentary at Vitalik himself directly. And in 2025, the new. Really, honestly, it's really only one of the new co executive directors, you know, Tomash Stonchak. The other one, Xiao Wei Wang, she doesn't like say a lot or do a lot as far as I can tell. Or at least most people talk about Tomash. But yeah, it sort of feels like Ethereum is in a much better place than it was a year ago. So I'd be interested to hear your thoughts on that one.

Doug Kolkatt (32:36)

So Quiet loves Ethereum. He's a. He's an eth maxi. So I don't want to say anything bad, might make him mad.

Gort (32:43)

I will be honest.

Laura Shin (32:44)

I should have a throwdown right now.

Gort (32:47)

I don't have. So I, I really don't like. I'll just be very direct. I don't think that the price action or reemergence of Ethereum has anything to do with the turnaround at the ef. Like this is I, you know, in terms of price action the last year, it's because Tom Lee, first of all, we had a mini bare market and then we have Tom Lee and ETFs and institutions and the tech is like, could it. It honestly is Functionally irrelevant to what is actually pumping the price. And, and, and with regards to partnerships and where people are building, it's. That also doesn't have much to do with the price at a functional level. I mean it's in people's minds more often.

Doug Kolkatt (33:32)

Right?

Gort (33:32)

Maybe it's in retail's minds more often. Like people who are looking for stuff to buy. Like, okay, then, you know, eat Doug is notorious in our group chat for talking about, you know, shilling eat to the. His country club's dentist. Right. Like the, his dad's orthodontist friends, right. Like they want to pile him with somebody that's not.

Doug Kolkatt (33:49)

Yeah, that's the world buys coming from.

Gort (33:52)

But this like, I mean I'm, I just don't believe that the EF turned around or like anything. I mean it's just purely like a function of market like oscillations. Right. And people read into this stuff and oh, you know, Ethereum's in war mode. It's like, no, dude, Tom Lee is on right now.

Laura Shin (34:10)

Such good hair. Is that what it is?

Gort (34:12)

I mean it's a much more that has more to do with it than the turnaround at the like non profit organization that's primarily funding, you know, frivolous endeavors in third world countries. Like that's my opinion.

Doug Kolkatt (34:26)

Solidity lessons for orphans in Namibia.

Gort (34:29)

Exactly.

Laura Shin (34:30)

Yeah.

Doug Kolkatt (34:31)

I don't know how many EVE holders could actually name an executive director the ef.

Laura Shin (34:38)

Hmm, good question.

Gort (34:41)

I, I'd heard of Tamash. Like I, I followed this turnaround but yes, agreed in terms of like maybe 5%.

Doug Kolkatt (34:49)

Yeah, maybe.

Gort (34:49)

And that was generous. I don't know. I ironically would say it's much more likely that somebody who holds Ethereum knows a somebody like Tomash than a bitcoin holder knows Peter Willet or you know, Greg Maxwell. You know what I mean? Like, so I think it's more likely that somebody in Ethereum.

Doug Kolkatt (35:07)

When did, when did Peter from Geth, like Rage quit? Was that this year?

Laura Shin (35:11)

2024?

Doug Kolkatt (35:12)

Well, it was really not going. Yeah, I feel like that was the nadir of kind of the politics there. I do think things have gotten marginally.

Laura Shin (35:22)

No, I think it got worse after he left for a little while. Is he. He left an earl earlier in 2024. I could be wrong, but maybe, you know, going back to my good hair point, I think the only good hair person in Solana is an. And I saw that he tweeted recently that he didn't go to any Solana events this year. So you know, that's. They they need.

Doug Kolkatt (35:44)

Has he been. Has he been a Solana guy for any of 2025 at all? I don't think he's been.

Laura Shin (35:51)

I don't know. He's definitely more of a meme coin person. So.

Doug Kolkatt (35:57)

It, it is interesting, Solana, how you have like these two different. Two different worlds, right? Like this whole meme coin world. And then, like, you know, like we're. We're in a chat with a couple, like, Solana devs. I'm like, so the devs that, like Anzo, like, have no idea. Like who. Like people. You should like Thread guy. Like, who. Who's Thread guy? I don't know who's. Or it's the. Who's the vape cabal. I've never heard of that. So it's kind of funny there.

Laura Shin (36:23)

All right, so in a moment, we're going to talk about some other big news from 2025, but first, a quick word from the sponsors to make this show possible.

Walrus Developer (36:33)

Before we built Walrus, what we heard a lot from developers was the need for speed. And we, we had. So reads and writes are extremely fast on Walrus. And this means that apps don't lag even with really large files. Privacy was another thing that we heard a lot about. And Walrus lets developers encrypt data with our primitive called seal. And with that, you have full control over who accesses your data and everything is enforced on chain. And this enables these really incredible use cases that haven't been possible before. Everything from more reliable AI models to data markets where users can monetize their data. So if you put this all together, what this actually means, it's the developers can finally build apps and they feel web 2 fast, but you've got web 3 level guarantees.

Laura Shin (37:29)

Back to my conversation with Doug and Quart. All right, all right. So the other big event that happened in the spring that really took a lot of crypto people by surprise was the Circle ipo. And I remember that Arthur Hayes was on the show literally, like, at least within two weeks before, maybe even days before the IPO happened. And he was basically talking about how, you know, he didn't think this was a buy. And, like, for all these reasons. And then, yeah, the IPO just took off. So I'd be curious to hear your thoughts about that.

Doug Kolkatt (38:03)

Yeah, I mean, it's kind of like such a dichotomy how much like, equity markets are. And maybe it goes back to a whole year. Right. Like, equity markets are just bullish in general. And I think, like something that's really frustrating with crypto now. Is it just like price action sucks compared to like nasdaq. But like, even crypto stocks, you know, like, it's obvious, like boomers who are buying stocks are way more optimistic right now than actual crypto people.

Laura Shin (38:29)

Yeah. Oh, go ahead.

Gort (38:32)

No, I mean, I. Nothing especially, you know, unique. But I, I do think there was a. Because, like, Circle was the first. Correct me if I'm wrong, like, Circle was the first to really market itself and also have momentum in the. The equities markets. One with crypto, but specifically with stable coins, which were simultaneously having, you know, as they still are, I suppose, but having the kind of like time moment. And so I think that like anybody wanted access to, you know, stable coins in, in traditional markets because this is the next big narrative. It's also dumped a lot. Like, I don't think we should. Like, we'd be remiss not to talk about this.

Doug Kolkatt (39:15)

Right.

Gort (39:15)

Like, it wouldn't weigh up and then some unlocks, which we are very familiar with in crypto. And it's also gone down a lot. And maybe this is just, you know, kind of following in. In line with the crypto markets. But yeah, like, I think playing into this stablecoin hype, again, it's not immediately clear like that Circle is one going to be the obvious kind of winner take all and nor will they even necessarily capture like all the value that, that they propose. But yeah, I think that was like the obvious kind of narrative there. And yeah, it definitely went straight up for a while. Right.

Doug Kolkatt (39:51)

What's. How much did it go down? Actually, I haven't seen the chart.

Laura Shin (39:54)

So the day of the IPO, it looks like it was at 82. And eventually it reached a high of about 263. But as of this moment, it's at 84.

Doug Kolkatt (40:06)

So it's basically so right at the IPO level.

Gort (40:08)

Yeah, they're defending that. They got a buy wall set up.

Laura Shin (40:12)

Yeah.

Doug Kolkatt (40:12)

And funny thing is people, I think a lot of crypto people don't realize there are like, unlocks and like locked equity and like IPOs and stuff. They think it's a very like crypto specific phenomenon. But like, float management exists with stocks too.

Laura Shin (40:27)

Yeah.

Walrus Developer (40:28)

Yeah.

Laura Shin (40:29)

Okay. Okay. So the next big event was the introduction of Robinhood chain. This was like easily one of the most slick events I've ever seen in all of crypto. I mean, did you see the intro to that event where like, Vladimir. Yeah. And he like drives in this. Yeah, he drives in this sports car. Yeah. I mean, it was really well done. I totally wish I could have been there. I think the only thing was, like, the WI fi didn't work well in the outdoor setting. Was like the only. You know, but otherwise it was like, so slick. And I'm sure you're all very well aware it caused kind of controversy is the right word. But, you know, people were just like, surprised that they picked this L2 on Ethereum, not Solana, because I think it had been rumored that they were going to do Solana. So. Yeah, I'm curious to hear your thoughts on. On, yeah, just all really, any of their announcements. Because also, you know, in that chain of events, they had the little, like, brouhaha with OpenAI being like, that's not OpenAI, you know, equity, but like the.

Doug Kolkatt (41:36)

The fake. The fake OpenAI equity. Yeah, yeah.

Gort (41:39)

Vlad, Vlad, Vlad fits very well into, like, the ask forgiveness, not permission type dynamic that we have in crypto. Right. He's like in the same archetype as a lot of our founders. And not only that, but he obviously understands the kind of merging of the casino and trading. Like, this has been very much the selling point of Robinhood, but to the point about the chain, I think. I mean, okay, I don't want to speculator or slander, but I think like all of these things, I'm sure they got incentivized in some capacity to come to.

Laura Shin (42:12)

Right, you mean like paid by Arbitrum, I'm sure.

Gort (42:15)

Right. Like, almost certainly that's how these things work. Like, all of them are like, dog, say something. I mean, I'm not like, am I beat the booze though, right now?

Doug Kolkatt (42:23)

So I don't want to slender Arbitrum.

Gort (42:24)

No, no, but it's nothing. There's nothing.

Laura Shin (42:28)

And like, it could have been that Solana could have paid them, you know, and maybe.

Doug Kolkatt (42:32)

Yeah, actually that's. That's a. Cool, cool. Why didn't Solana pay? Like, okay, you gotta pay. Why didn't Solana.

Laura Shin (42:35)

Cause Solana surely is paying a lot of people.

Doug Kolkatt (42:39)

Yeah, paying a lot of people are Western robbers, then Robinhood. Right?

Gort (42:45)

Well, okay, but sure, but I'm just saying, like, we. With a lot of these things, you know, obviously you probably have seen my kind of cynical perspective on a lot of this stuff. But, like, it's where we kind of overthink the tech they choose in, like the back office software. They're like, Robin Hood is going to go where they think, okay, first of all, if they get paid a lot or have a lot of good. If they feel like that whoever's going to kind of help them out with this, is going to be on top of it.

Doug Kolkatt (43:10)

Right.

Gort (43:11)

And somebody like Robinhood coming. Yeah, they're going to have the integrations ready. They're going to figure out how to tokenize Tesla, whatever. So that's the first thing. And then, like, it's not. I mean, Robinhood will go wherever I'm not. I just, I. I think we try to like, dig into like, oh, they chose this tech over this tech. It's like, well, maybe they were paid. And second of all, like, they'll go wherever they think that they can, you know, make the most money. Right. And so I don't think.

Laura Shin (43:34)

Yeah, but so where I don't agree with you is I think they could have been paid by anybody. So I think the money actually doesn't matter where it comes from because they're going to get the money. So that's why I actually feel like they did choose Arbitrum for the tech. Like, they talk about that stylus thing, which translates the solidity language to like a bunch of other languages that like developers can like, already know who aren't familiar with solidity. And then the other piece is they can make money being the Sequencer for the L2 and they can't do that on Solana. So. Yeah, so the money coming in from an outside source is gonna, that's gonna happen no matter what. So I don't think that's a factor.

Gort (44:09)

Okay, that's fair. The, the sequencer aspect. Right. Like, this is a large part of the whole L2 roadmap is, you know, control your own sequencing. And so. Yeah, that, that, that part's true. And also, I don't think it's. There's no company where it's more clear that Robinhood is the distribution. Right. Like, they own the user in that capacity. So I mean, that one's pretty straightforward. And, and that's a big pull for crypto as a whole.

Doug Kolkatt (44:32)

I will. How much they can play with like this, like just regulatory wise, like, you.

Gort (44:38)

Know, why can't they do what base does, though?

Laura Shin (44:42)

Yeah, I think that's what they're doing.

Doug Kolkatt (44:44)

I mean, because they're a broker and like you're the user and they're trading stocks through you and there's like this fiduciary. You can't.

Gort (44:52)

You.

Doug Kolkatt (44:52)

If you're like a regular like broker, you can't just be like, oh, we're going to rearrange some of our users trades, like coming in to, you know, run mev or whatever. I don't know. It feels.

Gort (45:03)

Yeah, BASE doesn't. Base is like, what, first come, first serve or whatever. I mean, BASS has at least a. Well, I. I don't know, an auction.

Doug Kolkatt (45:12)

For, like, the top of the.

Gort (45:14)

Well, what, like the flash blocks thing. Okay, We're. You should know this. Isn't this your domain?

Doug Kolkatt (45:19)

Yeah, I should know this, actually.

Gort (45:21)

Well, I guess my point. My point is BASE is not letting. Base is not letting SCP just run rampant over its users, obviously. Right. Like, so they have Saga Ru mushing people.

Doug Kolkatt (45:34)

Yeah.

Gort (45:34)

Right. But they're definitely not sandwiching.

Doug Kolkatt (45:37)

Yeah.

Laura Shin (45:37)

All right. Well, speaking of base, there was a lot of chatter about BASS through the year. Some of it not always positive, mainly because there was a lot of commentary around things like Jesse going around saying, you know, making these videos of himself saying, do you want to get on chain? Can I pick. Can I pay you, you know, 50 bucks or whatever to get on chain? And there were even some, you know, like. Yeah, it was the same with these creator coins. You know, people were not always vibing with the creator coin meta. I guess you could say. So. Yeah. What's your comments on. On that whole thing?

Doug Kolkatt (46:17)

Yeah, I think most of the responses were, absolutely not. Please get away from me. I don't know. Might have a restraining order from one or two people after through that attempt.

Laura Shin (46:29)

I'm trying to remember if they even had one video where somebody accepted.

Doug Kolkatt (46:34)

Yeah. Did anybody accept? He's literally giving away a hundred bucks on the street to anybody.

Gort (46:39)

I don't think it was a hundred dollars.

Doug Kolkatt (46:42)

No, it was like.

Gort (46:43)

I think it was less.

Laura Shin (46:44)

It was 50.

Doug Kolkatt (46:44)

Why would he not just do a hundred dollars?

Gort (46:47)

I mean, look, most people don't want to be approached and, you know, proposition to download something on their phone, download the software, download the spyware so you can make creator coins with me. It's like, not actually that compelling of a pitch to your average, like Sidewalk Walker. But the other thing, too, which was. Okay, so the one thing that I would mention about the base thing is that there was a. There was very much a. Let me think of how to phrase this from the base side. They were quite critical, or. Yeah, I guess. I guess critical is fine. Of Solana and the meme coins and how meme coins went down there, and they kind of positioned themselves as creator coins. Right. And I don't think anybody is.

Doug Kolkatt (47:36)

Is.

Gort (47:36)

I don't even think anybody on the base side is really trying to make this distinction anymore. Right. Between, like, creator coins. And it was.

Doug Kolkatt (47:43)

But it was a while there where it was Two weeks there after a lot of discourse about what's a creator coin versus a meme coin.

Gort (47:49)

And there was like a holier than now mindset for a while and I think there was a pivot from that. I mean, at least I haven't seen that so explicitly yet. Because creator coins quickly devolved into meme coins, right? And has there even been any like, have there been any successful creator coins? I could, I could be wrong, but like is there, is there a notable creator coin?

Laura Shin (48:08)

I mean, I think Jesse has one. He just launched his own coin and I'm, I think when I logged into my base app the other day, I saw it was doing pretty well. But like, so here's my take. I agree with you that creator coins are meme coins, but I think the reason that they are using different terminology is because to my mind this phrase creator coin speaks more directly to the problem in Web2, which is that creators, you know, generate so much money for the platforms they're on, but they do not generate money for themselves. So I feel like, I understand, like even though we all know that creator coins and meme coins are the same thing, I think to the non crypto person, which is who base is targeting here, they, it will like speak to them in a way that the word meme coin won't. So I think that that's why they're like insisting on this language. That's my personal take.

Walrus Developer (49:03)

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Doug Kolkatt (50:14)

So yeah, I mean that makes sense. I mean the thing about this though, is like the money has to come from somewhere, like at the end of the day.

Gort (50:25)

Right?

Doug Kolkatt (50:25)

Like somebody's taking money out of the system. Somebody's putting money into the system. Right. Like maybe it's Bitcoin or even Doge and it holds, but like, probably not. So, I mean, like, but it's not real.

Gort (50:39)

Like, this is, it's. It's not real. Like, I don't know how to articulate this. Like, we can all see that the vast majority of this is just so clearly fabricated. And it's like the, the, the engagement is farmers and just short term speculators. There's not like anything.

Doug Kolkatt (50:58)

The actual fans are showing up and buying creator coins.

Gort (51:01)

Exactly. Yes. And, and I, I just think yes.

Doug Kolkatt (51:05)

Or fans it is.

Gort (51:08)

I mean, I don't want to, like, I don't want to dignify it too much, but like, I, I take your point that creators don't monetize. But in the same way it's, it's a weird concept to just assume that people who post on Twitter and are in some way successful, like, want to securitize that and have holders of their coin. Like, that's not just an immediate connection in my mind. And there have been ways that a lot of us, like myself and then others, not to say that I have like some, you know, that sounds self important but like I could have monetized my brand by launching some or. And I didn't. And it's just like, it's not because I have some like moral superiority. It's like, I don't want to do that. I think there, the. There's a lot of people who just don't. They don't do it for that. They do it for the love of the game or whatever. You know, it's not like some assumption that like, oh, I'm being grossly underpaid for. The post that I put out there is like, dude, you're shit.

Laura Shin (51:59)

No, but I, So, so where I.

Doug Kolkatt (52:01)

Disagree, is Trump a creator coin is Trump coin and creator coin.

Laura Shin (52:05)

Yeah, in my opinion. I mean, so like he's, he's under pay.

Doug Kolkatt (52:09)

You know, he's only getting paid 400k a year to be president. He's got to monetize somehow.

Laura Shin (52:14)

Yeah, I mean, obviously I think there's like so many conflicts there. I don't, I don't approve of, of what he did. But, but Gort. So where I disagree with you is that like, I understand. Yeah, you're right. Like, maybe some of these creators, they're not like thinking like oh, you know, I want to make money or whatever, but they are aware that somebody is making money off of them. So it's like, if somebody's got to make money off of it, why shouldn't it be me? Because I'm the one creating the content.

Gort (52:42)

Right, but it's not okay. But, but okay, here's the difference is like, okay, at least from my understanding, you can tell me if this is not how it works, but like, the way that it. What works functionally with creator coins is that I have some amount of the supply of creator coin and then I dump it into my fans or whatever. Like, it's like what Doug was saying. Like the liquidity comes from somewhere and it's just like a transfer of like from. But it. There's like this assumption that my fans want to own, you know, posts that you make. And it's like, I don't, I don't. That there's still. There's a disconnect in my, in my head there. And I don't know. I mean, correct me if I'm wrong, but like, my understanding is that the way you make money off a creator coin is that you sell the creator coin. And so it's like, now I've taken something that's worth, in my mind, $0 and sold it to somebody and it's going to go to $0. Like, I just, I don't want to be involved in that. And I don't know. I don't know that that really resonates directly with creators. I, I don't know, maybe I'm wrong, but I mean, is that how it works?

Doug Kolkatt (53:42)

Who's the biggest creator that's been made? A base creator. Corn.

Gort (53:46)

Right. Why can't you name one? Why can't you name the biggest creator?

Laura Shin (53:49)

Okay, wait, wait. So this is embarrassing because we do have a Zora coin and I, like, I, I don't manage it, so I actually didn't know the details.

Doug Kolkatt (53:58)

So you're probably the biggest creator.

Gort (54:00)

Of course you like creator coins.

Laura Shin (54:02)

Okay, okay. So.

Doug Kolkatt (54:03)

So you would actually be the biggest base creator coin.

Laura Shin (54:08)

No, no, no, I'm, I'm pro.

Doug Kolkatt (54:09)

Besides Jesse.

Laura Shin (54:11)

Yeah, I, I have no idea because there's somebody else on the team who, who does that. So I actually don't know, but apparently.

Doug Kolkatt (54:19)

This would be an example of somebody who's actually like.

Gort (54:21)

Because I thought it was just Jesse.

Doug Kolkatt (54:22)

And like some only fans. Like people at one point or like he was getting that.

Laura Shin (54:26)

No, no, no. I think they invited kind of like Instagram ish type people. As far as I can tell. But. But like, the thing is. So at least, at least from this quick search that I just did online, so hopefully I'm not spouting nonsense here, but creators earn 1% on the trades. They're not like just dumping a whole bunch of coins. That's not. Yeah. As far as I understand, like, we literally are earning some. Yeah, I don't even know what we earn, if it's like USDC or ETH or what it is.

Doug Kolkatt (54:55)

But.

Laura Shin (54:56)

But maybe down the line it might be this upcoming base token or whatever. But yeah, unfortunately, I'm sorry, I guess I don't know more about this.

Gort (55:05)

Here's my thing is like, I do think that a lot of this stuff feels like we're just grasping at straws. Like we are truly, like on the last.

Doug Kolkatt (55:16)

Like we're in the demos or something for crypto depths.

Gort (55:19)

The depths of where is like, what use cases can we concoct? And maybe these things have some marginal demand, like in. At on the fringes. And like, maybe that persists and I'm sure some of it will. But I'm just not going to sit here and like, pretend that these are massive unlocks because one, I like, the fundamental premise is just I don't think this, like, I don't think everyone's going to be out there creating and coining it because they're just. There's not enough good content. There's not enough people that want to do that one. And then the other thing is that I just, I. I do have like some reservations about like, pretending that this stuff is real. Like, we dignify a lot of this stuff when it's like, oh, it's just frivolous little games. Like, they're just little trinkets. We overthink. I think, like the value proposition. So I'm not trying to be too, like, you know, cynical about it is.

Doug Kolkatt (56:14)

It is funny. It's. It's probably what, the largest use case of the largest L2 on Ethereum. It's like creator coins.

Gort (56:23)

Yeah.

Doug Kolkatt (56:24)

If you told somebody that 10 years ago, what's going to be the largest use case on the largest L2 of Ethereum?

Laura Shin (56:29)

I mean, you know, what I will say is I actually have no doubt that there will be something like this that becomes a thing. I just don't think that it will become a thing until after, like, stablecoins have kind of become more used by all of society. I think once that happens and there's like a certain threshold that we've crossed where people don't need to think about it as hard. Like I feel like the obstacles to, for a normie to get to the point where they're using the base app and they're like doing these creator coins. It's like too many hurdles at this point. But like once we have wider adoption of Stables then I could totally see it taking off and I could see it really being a thing. But I just think it's a little bit early now. That's, that's just my personal opinion you guys. We're kind of running out of time but we haven't even talked about DATs. So let's, we'll move to the news about 21 which to my mind was maybe what like we had some deaths early in the year that were solana based but 21 was the first one where people really sat up and took notice of this trend. And then of course there were just like a slew of so many that happened after that. But yeah, let's talk about Dap Mania, which now is clearly, you know, the bubbles already burst. That one was a very short lived mania, you know, with all these M navs below one. But yeah, what, what's your take on you know, this bubble that we saw spring up and first.

Doug Kolkatt (57:53)

I'm going to paraphrase Garp Quirt here that I'm not sure if any of these DATs are real or that, or at least most of them should be dignified. I mean I, I, I don't, I don't get it a ton like what, what they're really doing here. Maybe like before there were ETFs and stuff and you can access coins. But I mean I, I also maybe don't exactly get like what MicroStrategy is, is for.

Laura Shin (58:17)

You're spoken like a, like one of those ethereum devs that like doesn't understand finances.

Doug Kolkatt (58:24)

Could be, yeah, I mean maybe, I mean it's, they're all like the premise is I'm gonna buy a dollar for a dollar twenty because it goes into a wrapper and somebody's gonna buy it for a dollar fifty.

Laura Shin (58:39)

Yeah, but now you can spend fifty cents to get a dollar's worth of bitcoin.

Doug Kolkatt (58:42)

So yeah, I, I don't know Gordon, you like, are you bullish on that? I actually don't know your opinion on like MicroStrategy.

Gort (58:51)

I'm actually probably one of the like, it seems like controversial at this point, But I think MicroStrategy is, I, I think it, well it's a, it's, I think it's quite likely to be polarizing in the sense that like it either works or it doesn't and there's not really much in between. I think what Saylor did was actually brilliant. I think what Saylor did is somewhat unique to what Saylor can do and it is not necessarily extendable to the 18th, you know, altcoin debt. Like he found unique ways to tap into markets that can't buy Bitcoin directly, want to have these weird structured products that, you know, they can take on as a trade. And he pays out yield, right? Like it's. There is a Ponzi dynamic here and certainly with his most recent like preferreds, I mean they are algo stable coins functionally, right. Like they are, you know, pegged at a hundred dollars, but they float. And the idea is that like ultimately the yield brings them up to this sort of persistent interest rate. I think that Saylor's strategy, and I think this is absolutely necessary in the long run, is that they become like a bitcoin NEO bank and they can provide a lot of services around in the long run. I think this is the idea in mind now, like, obviously people saw how this was working. Taylor's been doing this for five years, right? Like he's tapped into these massive pools of capital for the past five years. People saw how like, well, he's run this Ponzi and they're like, oh well, we should do this with, you know, Cardona.

Laura Shin (60:28)

I don't even understand like exactly how that would work. Like, so if I look at something like an etherfi where you put your ether in and then it's like literally using DEFI in the background to generate these yields. Like that makes sense to me. But I don't understand. You own Stock and MicroStrategy and like how does that become your NEO bank? I don't get it.

Gort (60:47)

No, no, no. I mean like he hopes to become like Goldman Sachs, but it's denominated in Bitcoin. So there's giving out loans and providing liquidity and lending and borrowing. Like it, it. The thing is, it's just because he has a financial institution, because he has a massive amount of bitcoin.

Laura Shin (61:05)

Oh, so people buy MicroStrategy, but MicroStrategy, in addition to its software business, adds on a new business where they have a NEO bank for.

Gort (61:13)

I mean, I'm talking like this is in my mind in 10 years, in 20 years. If this was in fact a good idea, it's because they have been able to essentially become a behemoth because they have a tremendous amount of Bitcoin and there's a lot of leverage there in economies of scales there. If you are thinking in the same terms as JP Morgan and Goldman Sachs and what they're able to do with a ton of liquidity, if Bitcoin becomes global reserve asset, non Stobo store value, medium exchange, whatever it may be, they have a massive lead and there are just a lot of different things you can get into. Now this is obviously somewhat, I really.

Doug Kolkatt (61:47)

Like the, this reverse dynamic here because normally I'm the guy who's like really optimistic and talking about, like, for me.

Laura Shin (61:53)

You can see from a security perspective, I'm just like, why would they risk putting their Bitcoin in a place where they could lose a bunch of. I don't know. To my mind, that's. I don't know if they would do that.

Doug Kolkatt (62:05)

I can see that. I mean, I, I see it's plausible, right? Like, if you have the world's biggest treasury of bitcoin, the thing is.

Gort (62:11)

Okay, so maybe you're right. But here's the thing. If what I'm saying right now does not come into fruition, then like IM nav eventually in the long run, converges on one at probably the highest. Right. And how do they make money? Well, like, they have all these like, outstanding debt and their software business, at least at the scale they're moving, is not going to cover that. So like, that is the idea. But I don't think, I mean, I'm not as pessimistic on, on micro strategy. I think a lot like as of late, because the market's gone down, people like, oh, this is, this is done. So I'm, I'm, I don't hold that opinion. I think it's like perhaps like the most brilliant financial maneuver ever, but it also could, if it goes to zero, it goes to zero. And like, we're all gonna be like, oh, yeah, what did you expect? It was a Ponty, obviously.

Doug Kolkatt (63:02)

But you think that can't be replicated for like the SUI debt?

Gort (63:06)

No, because the thing is, and this is like what really kind of like elucidated this for me is like all these pools of capital, if they can be tapped, Michael Saylor is tapping them. And like Bitcoin is the largest market cap. Like it's the most liquid, right? And there's like some defensibility. There is like, do you, are you really gonna be able to issue, you know, some like, exotic preferreds against SUI, which, you know, like, probably 1% of the world's population is heard of, maybe.

Doug Kolkatt (63:34)

Right.

Gort (63:34)

Like, it's much less realistic. So, I don't know. The rest of the dats I'm a little bit, like, skeptical of, but we'll see.

Laura Shin (63:41)

I mean, I mean, I will say that Michael Saylor's AI Slop game is. Is hilarious. Yeah. I mean, the fact that he turns out so much AI Slop featuring himself and gets thousands of likes on every single one of them. There's something Harry like, that is. That is an achievement. All right, you guys, this was so fun, but we're running out of time, so we are going to do a part two where we finish up the rest of the events of the year. And until then, it's been so fun chatting with you, and I look forward to hearing your funny takes for the rest of the events in 2025.