Unchained | Bits + Bips: Every Fortune 500 Company Will Be a DAT

Episode 945 | November 12, 2025
Host: Laura Shin
Panel: Austin Campbell, Chris Perkins, Matt Haugen, Felix Galvan Quill

Overview

This episode of Bits + Bips, a segment on Unchained, explores the accelerating intersection of crypto markets, macroeconomics, and policy. Against a backdrop of government shutdown drama, shifting US and UK regulatory frameworks, and surging adoption and innovation in crypto asset structures (“DATs”), the panel debates whether every Fortune 500 company will soon be a decentralized autonomous treasury. The group brings together perspectives from traditional and decentralized finance, with insights on stablecoins, macro liquidity, tokenomics, and the future architecture of global money.

Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. US Government Shutdown – Market and Economic Impact

[04:13–12:51]

• Government Shutdown Nears End:
  • The panel reacts to a bipartisan Senate deal to end the US government shutdown, funding through 2025 for key agencies.
  • Market reaction: Bitcoin rallies above $106k, broader markets buoyed.
• Liquidity Withdrawal:
  • Felix highlights the Treasury General Account has ballooned over $1 trillion due to a lack of spending, draining market liquidity.
  • “When you have the biggest player out of the market, it makes sense that we’ve seen such a choppy dynamic over the past month.” — Felix Galvan Quill [06:47]
• Long-Term Political Instability:
  • Matt reflects on cyclical government dysfunction and increasing political polarization: “Are we going to be repeating this every two years, every one year? That’s a much bigger social issue than just the economic impact we’re facing for the last 40 days.” [09:23]
• Banks and Liquidity:
  • Felix: “The distribution of reserves across banks is super uneven… JP Morgan’s doing fine. But some of those longer tail banks… are probably a bit hairy right now.” [12:01]
  • Matt: “I think the pain has already been felt… are we getting into a rhythm that every time they couldn’t solve an issue, they [keep] having shutdowns that become routine? That’s going to be a place we’re trying to avoid.” [12:22]

2. Trump’s $2,000 Tariff Dividend—Stimulus or Inflation Fuel?

[12:51–20:53]

• Proposal Overview:
  • Trump proposes one-off $2,000 payments to Americans funded by tariffs, sparking debate over short-term stimulus vs. long-term impacts.
• Popularity & Optics:
  • Chris: “This is kind of a beauty parade to the public… We’ve made $200 billion in these tariffs. Sky hasn’t fallen. I’m giving them back to the people. We’re gonna really grow this economy.” [15:25]
• Retroactive Refund?
  • Felix speculates on logistics: “If the Supreme Court is telling you you need to refund that amount, it’s a nice way to wrap that in a little bow and say here’s a little dividend for you.” [16:22]
• Macro Risks:
  • Matt: “The problem: you have a double whammy here. The money comes from by increasing the price in general because there’s a tariff in the first place. And then you also put the stimulus back to people’s hand so they actually can spend more money.” [18:01]
• Global Pattern:
  • Austin: “Most of the time when governments are faced with a choice of embrace fiscal discipline or keep spending and cause inflation, they go with keep spending and cause inflation.” [19:26]
• Crypto Thesis:
  • Matt: “When people talk about flight to safety… are we really talking about is US Treasury actually have a credit spread on its own, what are actually flying to safety?… It all hinges on inflation, US monetary policies, [and] fiscal spending.” [21:24]

3. DATs and Public Crypto Vehicles – The Coming Corporate Shift

[24:47–43:54]

• DATs Under Pressure:
  • Many DATs now trade close to or even below book value; “if all a DAT does is hold coins, you’re better off with an ETF.” – Matt Haugen [26:40]
• Operating Businesses as Differentiators:
  • Matt: “The question for DAT 2.0… If your entire business thesis is based on holding your stock and trading above book value… it’s very hard to trade sustainably above NAV premium if you’re just holding the token… you need an operating business on top.” [29:52]
• The Berkshire Hathaway Analogy:
  • Austin: “Does that argue for single asset DATs or should we really see crypto sector DATs then deploying generically into the economy?” [31:31]
• Key Success Criteria:
  • Chris: “As investors, we look for about five things… The most important thing: the asset manager… has to know its stuff. That is the difference. That’s the secret sauce that you get with the DAT.” [33:11]
• Arbitrage & Cheap Funding:
  • Matt: “The equivalent [of Berkshire's insurance float] in crypto is the lack of the term structure in crypto derivatives, at least for now… you can’t even get a five-year call option on ETH… so some of these DATs offer incredibly cheap capital via convertibles.” [36:12]
• Consolidation Coming:
  • Felix: “I think… the long tail of them should probably trade at a discount and the ones [with] a proven track record… should trade at a premium… I think there’s some very interesting games that’ll be played out in the next while.” [40:38]
  • Chris: “There’s going to be M&A, there’s going to be consolidation and rollups… We’re super early.” [41:32]
• Fortune 500 Vision:
  • Matt: “In 10 years… every single Fortune 500 company is a DAT somehow.” [31:17, callback to intro at 01:49]

4. UK Stablecoin Regulation – Opportunity or Missed Moment?

[44:30–52:30]

• UK Cap Proposal:
  • New BoE proposal limits stablecoin holdings: £20k per person, £10m per business.
  • Chris: “It seems like they’re really trying, but come on… the US isn’t slowing down anytime soon. The Japanese are starting to engage… But these caps gotta stop.” [45:33]
• Missed Fintech Potential:
  • Chris: “Global finance, one of the greatest hubs in the world is in the UK… it truly is. The time zone works, FX markets are awesome. Like, it is the place to be… I just wish they’d take the training wheels off and get after it.” [46:30]
• Controls & Capital Flight:
  • Felix: “To me it just feels like this panic or concern in terms of control of monetary policy in each of these countries…” [48:08]
  • Austin: “People only need two things to buy a US dollar stablecoin, the Internet and something to exchange for it… You’ve got two options, which is get with the program or get run over.” [51:11]
• US Catching Up:
  • Matt: “These moments make you realize it’s not that the UK is moving any slower than they always have been. It’s the 180 degree in the US [policy] that got us back to where it always has been…” [49:06]

5. Stablecoin Mega-Boom & The Future of On-Chain Money

[52:30–57:49]

• Stablecoin Market Projections:
  • Myron’s speech: stablecoins could hit $3 trillion in 5 years, influencing global interest rates.
  • Chris: “Is $3 trillion enough?… Once there’s liquidity, then pop, it’ll be exponential. And I think the stablecoins may have to follow very quickly because that’s what you’re going to need to exchange those assets.” [53:08]
• Dollarization & Financial Repression:
  • Felix: “It just feels like we’re heading towards this world where just to avoid any sort of upset on the long end, we’re just going to avoid any sort of duration… we just get into this world… we’re going to stuff bills into every corner that we can and it feels like this is one of the key avenues for it.” [54:16]
• Tokenization’s True Impact:
  • Matt: “Tokenizing US Treasury you make Treasury 10% better. I think private credit [and] real estate mortgages on chain, you make them ten times better… [Tokenization] will actually drive the neutral spread [lower].” [55:48]
• Derivatives and On-Chain Collateral:
  • Austin: “Moving to 24/7 unification and clearing and margining of interest rate derivatives… all those derivatives need collateral. … I’m incredibly bullish on the eventual market size here. … I'll definitely take the over [on stablecoin growth].” [57:49]

6. The Ripple Question – Is Equity or Token More Valuable?

[60:18–65:38]

• Ripple as a Case Study:
  • Ripple has recently acquired ‘real world’ businesses, raising questions about how value will ultimately accrue between XRP tokens and Ripple equity.
  • Felix: “High level, I’d always take the equity over the governance [token]… in general you want the claim on cash flows, whatever those lead to.” [60:26]
  • Matt: “For Ripple in particular… these two are intertwined… The acquisition of Hidden Road, the launch of their own stablecoin… all paving the way for them to do something more.” [61:24]
• Which will win out?
  • Austin: “If the token is a way to just acquire money from retail, buy businesses, and then accrue value to the equity, I think the whole thing ends badly… If they use the tokens to acquire businesses and then start buying back the token to return value, you have a very different construct—maybe like a crowd-sourced Berkshire Hathaway.” [63:21]
• Tokenomics & Regulatory Shift:
  • Matt: “One thing people have really fixed is tokenomics… In the last cycle we had a compromise… you have equity and you have a token… The question is, where's the value accruing to and is there any value leakage?” [64:11]
  • Chris: “But your hands are also tied behind your back because if you turn the fee switch on, you go to jail. It’s going to be the cycle to get tokenomics right.” [64:53]
  • Felix: “We’ve been fighting with one arm behind our back for the past four years… now we can experiment… I think the direction is good.” [65:08]

Notable Quotes & Fun Moments

• “Every single Fortune 500 company is a DAT somehow.” — Matt Haugen [01:49, 31:17]
• “Most of the time when governments are faced with a choice of embrace fiscal discipline or keep spending and cause inflation, they go with keep spending and cause inflation.” — Austin Campbell [19:26]
• “If all a DAT does is hold coins, you’re better off with an ETF.” — Matt Haugen [24:47]
• “There’s going to be M&A, there’s going to be consolidation and rollups… We’re super early.” — Chris Perkins [41:32]
• “These caps gotta stop.” — Chris Perkins on UK’s stablecoin plan [47:23]
• “People only need two things to buy a US dollar stablecoin—the Internet, and something to exchange for it.” — Austin Campbell [51:11]
• “Tokenizing US Treasury you make Treasury 10% better. I think private credit real estate mortgages on chain you make them ten times better.” — Matt Haugen [55:48]
• “If you turn the fee switch on, you go to jail.” — Chris Perkins [64:53]

Timestamps for Major Segments

• 01:49 — “Every Fortune 500 company will be a DAT”—Matt’s prediction
• 04:13–12:51 — US Government shutdown and market liquidity impact
• 12:51–20:53 — Trump’s tariff dividend and macro inflation
• 24:47–43:54 — DATs: cycles, challenges, and the Fortune 500 thesis
• 44:30–52:30 — UK stablecoin regulation, capital controls, and fintech futures
• 52:30–57:49 — Stablecoin expansion, on-chain collateral, and tokenization’s next wave
• 60:18–65:38 — XRP vs. Ripple Equity, tokenomics, and regulatory evolution

Tone and Takeaways

Engaging, lightly irreverent, with frequent analogies to traditional finance and history. The panel combines deep macro/crypto expertise with open skepticism, never shying away from controversial or critical takes, but always keeping their eyes on the expansive potential of on-chain innovation. Frequent reminders that “nothing here is investment advice,” but plenty to chew on for market watchers, builders, and crypto-curious outsiders.

Final takeaway:
Every institution — from the US Treasury to Ripple, from the Bank of England to the next startup — is being forced to adapt to the new realities of programmable money and decentralized trust. As today’s experiments collide with legacy systems, the only certainty is turbulence — and that, for crypto, is the opportunity.

End of summary.