Bits + Bips: Grid Congestion Is Energy’s L1 Problem. This Crypto Company Has a Solution

Summary

Unchained Podcast: Bits + Bips — Grid Congestion Is Energy’s L1 Problem. This Crypto Company Has a Solution

Date: March 28, 2026
Host: Steve Ehrlich (Head of Research, Sharplink)
Guest: Sean Murray (Head of Special Projects & Crypto Lead, Fuse Energy)

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Overview

In this episode, Steve Ehrlich speaks with Sean Murray from Fuse Energy, a UK-based full-stack energy company, about the intersection of crypto, decentralized physical infrastructure (DePin), and energy market volatility. They explore how grid congestion mirrors blockchain network congestion, the mechanics of energy market price discovery, and Fuse’s novel token-based demand response system. The episode dives into the company’s roots, regulatory journey, and the tokenomics of their forthcoming blockchain-based energy platform aimed at reducing grid congestion and making a real-world impact.

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Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. Fuse Energy's Background and Business Model

• Origins: Founded by ex-Revolut employees, Fuse Energy is a vertically integrated energy company operating across generation (solar, wind), energy trading, wholesale markets, supply to homes/businesses, and R&D for distributed energy devices.
  • Sean Murray (03:02): “…we’re a verticalized energy company. So it means we operate across the energy stack…generating energy from our own generation plants…to a big in house kind of trading operation…to then ultimately supplying homes and soon businesses with energy and billing them every month for it.”
• Growth: Currently about $0.5B in annual revenue, mainly in Europe and the UK, planning US and further international expansion.

2. Energy Market Volatility & Macro Factors

• Europe vs. US Energy Exposure:
  • US is more insulated due to shale; Europe remains heavily dependent on imports—with storage seasonality influencing prices.
  • Sean Murray (07:38): “...with the recent shale revolution, [the US is] fairly insulated…But that decoupling…will look to converge over time.”
• Current Gas Prices: Elevated due to global unrest and infrastructure attacks (e.g., closure of the Strait of Hormuz, attack on Qatari LNG facilities).
  • Sean Murray (10:06): “...the price of gas are basically about 50% to 70% above the kind of usual price that was kind of, we would expect around this, this kind of year.”

3. Grid Congestion as Energy’s ‘L1 Problem’

• Explaining the Analogy:
  • Grid constraints are likened to blockchain L1 congestion—fixed capacity, rising demand, and costly delays mirror network gas fees and throughput bottlenecks.
  • Sean Murray (27:25): “So the analogy I actually like to use is that grid networks are suffering from congestion issues very similar to how legacy L1s suffered from congestion issues. You’ve got limited network capacity, peak demand, and as a consequence, network congestion, high gas prices...it’s a scalability problem.”
• Real-World Impact: Billions in renewable energy is “shedded” (lost), as grids cannot transmit surplus from supply to demand zones due to capacity bottlenecks.

4. How Fuse Energy is Hedging and Trading

• Market Structure Overview:
  • Even in high-renewable regions, gas prices set the market price because gas fills the demand gaps.
  • Sean Murray (15:19): “Even if renewables make up 90% of your kind of generation mix, often it is the price of gas that then sets the market wide price.”
• Hedging Practices: Fuse builds positions via power exchanges, then refines near delivery based on updated weather/demand data (highly variable due to temperature dependence).
• Prediction Markets: Observing derivative markets (e.g., Hyper Liquid) with interest but note institutional energy contracts require more complexity and liquidity than current on-chain prediction markets provide.

5. Fuse’s DePin Solution & Token-Based Demand Response

The Problem:

• Demand Inflexibility: Most home and business energy demand is inelastic, leading to price spikes and inefficiencies.
• Grid Congestion: Inability to move energy where/when it’s needed creates waste and stunts further development.

The Solution:

• Demand Response via Tokenized Incentives:

  • Fuse’s DePin network coordinates millions of consumer devices (EV chargers, smart thermostats, batteries) to intelligently shift demand away from peak congestion.
  • Sean Murray (28:58): “If we can leverage all of these millions of devices...to actually respond to the grid conditions in real time, we can significantly reduce congestion on the grid...means lower costs of energy for everyone so we can do things faster.”

• Real Utility, Not Just “Crypto for the Sake of It”:

  • Fuse differentiates itself from prior DePin projects by anchoring its solution in an existing, regulated business with significant demand and adoption.
  • Direct value provided for users—discounts on goods/services (e.g., solar array installations) in exchange for their grid-flexible energy behavior.

6. Tokenomics, Regulatory Journey, and Utility

• Token Mechanism:
  • Users earn “Energy Dollar” tokens for providing device flexibility.
  • Tokens are burned for discounted products/services (e.g., solar installs), reducing long-term supply.
  • Sean Murray (36:04): “…I can actually take the tokens that I’ve earned, burn them…[for] a $2-3,000 discount on my solar array.”
• Emission and Burns:
  • Emissions align with energy transition schedules out to 2050; goal is for 50%+ of supply to be burned via real-world redemptions.
• No-Action Letter from SEC:
  • Regulated as a compliant utility token; core focus was ensuring “consumptive utility” versus speculation.
  • Sean Murray (38:11): “What they cared about was is there really a consumptive utility…the main focus for them.”
• No Airdrops:
  • Not giving away tokens en masse to speculators, but rather distributing in line with network value contributed.
  • Sean Murray (41:35): “...giving away a ton of supply to get like early kind of eyeballs just wasn’t quite our kind of, you know, skin.”

7. User Experience and Contingency Thinking

• Seamlessness:
  • Embedded wallets and UX designed for both web2/web3 users to easily redeem tokens for real value.
  • If redemption decreases or users just sell tokens, utility and in-app value will be emphasized to re-anchor usage.
• Device & Market Scale:
  • With just 0.1 MW (about 100 homes with smart thermostats) able to market-make in flexibility markets, scale is achievable; tens of thousands of homes could offset an entire data center.
  • Future plans include proprietary hardware and international expansion.

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Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• On Grid vs. Blockchain Analogy:

  • Sean Murray (27:25): “Grid networks are suffering from congestion issues very similar to how legacy L1s suffered from congestion issues.”

• On Real-World Impact:

  • Sean Murray (27:13): “...over $70 billion in the last five years worth of renewable, clean, low cost power has essentially been shedded because we can’t move it across the grid to where it's needed.”

• On True Utility vs. Speculation:

  • Sean Murray (34:39): “...we release something that's actually useful and not just an investment vehicle or a speculation vehicle.”

• On Airdrops and Distribution:

  • Sean Murray (41:29): “...when I look at airdrops, I think they're going to be viewed, you know, historically as the most expensive marketing campaigns in history.”

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Important Timestamps

| Timestamp | Segment Description | |-----------|--------------------| | 03:02-03:54 | Fuse’s business model & vertical integration explained | | 04:46-08:42 | Energy market volatility, differences between Europe & US, and the impact of recent global events | | 14:06-19:29 | Power market price discovery, inelastic demand, and how Fuse hedges energy exposure | | 24:33-29:14 | The grid as an L1 infrastructure problem & introduction of the DePin network | | 33:33-37:00 | Tokenomics: energy dollar, emissions, burns, and value flows | | 38:11-39:06 | SEC no-action letter, regulatory emphasis on utility | | 41:29-42:05 | Why Fuse Energy is not doing airdrops and the risks of incentivized farming | | 44:40-45:12 | Closing thoughts and how to follow Fuse’s progress |

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Concluding Summary

This episode provides a comprehensive, jargon-light, and highly relevant discussion for listeners interested in the convergence of energy, crypto, and decentralized infrastructure. Fuse Energy’s approach to solving the grid’s ‘L1 congestion’ problem with a tokenized, compliant, real-economy solution is positioned as both pragmatic and forward thinking—directly rewarding users for participating in grid flexibility and reinvesting value into the ecosystem rather than solely relying on speculative web3 paradigms or unsustainable airdrop marketing tactics.

Sean Murray delivers nuanced, informed explanations for both industry veterans and newcomers, while Steve Ehrlich steers the conversation toward real-world impacts, regulatory nuance, and the practicalities of launching DePin at scale.

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For more details:

• Follow @FuseEnergy on X and stay tuned for regular updates, competitions, and news around their upcoming Token Generation Event (TGE).
• Visit fuseenergy.com (assumed URL) for more information.

“If we can leverage all these millions of devices that are already just sitting in homes, like unused right now…we can significantly reduce congestion on the grid, which has tons of knock on effects…”
— Sean Murray, 28:35

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Transcript

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[Steve Ehrlich]

Welcome to another episode of Fits and the Interview. My name is Steve Ehrlich, Head of Research at Sharplink and also your host. We've got a terrific show for you today, but before we dive in, let's take a very brief break to hear from some of the sponsors who make the show possible.

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[Bits and Bips Announcement]

we get into today's episode, Bits and Bits now has its dedicated feed. We're spinning up from the Unchained feed and moving to a new podcast and YouTube channel. So if you want to keep up with our weekly live streams and macro meets crypto breakdowns, make sure to subscribe to Bits and Bits directly. We won't publish there until March, but subscribe today so you can be ready for launch. Be sure to subscribe to the new feeds@unchained crypto.com bitsandb

[Steve Ehrlich]

all right, welcome back. So like I said, we've got a really interesting and timely episode today. I have with me Sean Murray, the head of special projects and crypto lead at Fuse Energy, a $5 billion UK based energy company. Full stack energy company that that really sits at, I guess, the convergence of decentralized infrastructure, crypto and energy. And we've been speaking for weeks now about how crypto and macro are colliding. That's what we do on the show in particular in relation to the volatility in energy prices. And Sean's business is being directly impacted by all of this and they've come up with a really ingenious way to try to, I guess, mute out some of that volatility and grow a sustainable business that's largely based on renewable energy. Something that we can all get behind.

[Sean Murray]

So welcome Sean, thanks for having me on.

[Sean Murray (continuation or co-speaker)]

Steve. Great to be here.

[Steve Ehrlich]

So I want to just level set here and I want to make sure that we're going to get into all those issues. But Fuse It's a bit of a complicated company and like many projects that I highlight on the show, your origins did not start in crypto. The firm actually was created by a few early employees of Revolut Europe's I believe, largest or most valuable fintech startup. So they know how to grow a business and you've already built a pretty successful company before you even got into crypto. So just very briefly, can you please explain what Fuse does?

[Sean Murray]

Yeah, sure Steve, and thanks. And understandable. We're building probably about 10 different businesses

[Sean Murray (continuation or co-speaker)]

at once right now.

[Sean Murray]

So a lot going on. But in summary, we're a verticalized energy company. So it means we operate across the energy stack. Everything from generating energy from our own generation plants like solar and wind farms that we acquire and manage to a big in house kind of trading operation on wholesale power markets to then ultimately supplying homes and soon businesses with energy

[Sean Murray (continuation or co-speaker)]

and billing them every month for it.

[Sean Murray]

And that's kind of on top of kind of an installation and an R

[Sean Murray (continuation or co-speaker)]

and D unit as well that we do for kind of distributed energy devices that ultimately looking to launch our kind of crypto native product into.

[Sean Murray]

So that's broadly what we're doing. We're doing about half a billion in revenue right now annually, mostly based in Europe and the uk, but looking to

[Sean Murray (continuation or co-speaker)]

kind of expand over the next year or two to, you know, North America and a bunch of other countries.

[Steve Ehrlich]

Yeah, and I know one, I guess, big feather in your cap is a no action letter you got from the sec, I believe last year. And we'll get into that and what it means for your business. But first I really want to talk about what's happening in energy markets today. I don't have to tell anyone listening or watching that they're volatile. Oil is still about above $100. And given I think some of the seesawing statements from President Trump in the US and responses from the Iranians, it's very unclear what's going to happen next. How is this impacting the energy markets in Europe versus the US Which I believe is a little more self reliant. And what are some of the big changes or how is this impacting your business?

[Sean Murray]

Yeah, a great, very obviously topical question and the kind of differences between the

[Sean Murray (continuation or co-speaker)]

UK and Europe and the US are

[Sean Murray]

pretty stark, which you can kind of see manifest itself on the charts right now. I think one of the big things that we look at broadly is if you think about kind of oil and gas prices, obviously they're incredibly. The price of oil and gas on

[Sean Murray (continuation or co-speaker)]

markets is incredibly related to the supply.

[Sean Murray]

And you know, most, most of that

[Sean Murray (continuation or co-speaker)]

comes through the gulf for, for Europe

[Sean Murray]

especially in the U.S. naturally, you know, with the kind of recent shale revolution

[Sean Murray (continuation or co-speaker)]

the US is, is somewhat self sufficient especially when it comes to, to, to gas.

[Sean Murray]

But I think you know, one of the big things that we look at is when we're looking at and how it's kind of affecting our business is that the price of oil actually doesn't really affect, you know, the price that ultimately people pay for their energy.

[Sean Murray (continuation or co-speaker)]

That homes, businesses, data centers, et cetera pay for their energy.

[Sean Murray]

That and you know, obviously it affects what people pay at the pump but it's, it's more through secondary effects that oil has these knock on effects on the kind of energy economy and, and you know, it's loosely correlated with gas and that's typically due to you know,

[Sean Murray (continuation or co-speaker)]

it's kind of a replacement in some industrial applications. And obviously oil and gas are sourced near one another.

[Sean Murray]

But the main effect of oil on kind of power markets and energy markets

[Sean Murray (continuation or co-speaker)]

in general is secondary due to you know, inflationary effects on, on logistics.

[Sean Murray]

And obviously that's been hugely impacted with

[Sean Murray (continuation or co-speaker)]

the recent developments in the Middle East.

[Sean Murray]

The kind of more kind of pertinent thing around energy markets for us in

[Sean Murray (continuation or co-speaker)]

our business is the price of gas.

[Sean Murray]

And it's a totally different story because

[Sean Murray (continuation or co-speaker)]

gas directly influences the price of electricity that people pay.

[Sean Murray]

It's the kind of primary fuel that

[Sean Murray (continuation or co-speaker)]

goes into your combine gas turbines which

[Sean Murray]

makes up a third of the fuel mix in both the UK and the US and the way that energy markets

[Sean Murray (continuation or co-speaker)]

are structured and the kind of price discovery mechanism on energy markets is very heavily indexed towards the gas price.

[Sean Murray]

So what that means is when there's supply disruptions to the LNG around the world, what you see is a direct

[Sean Murray (continuation or co-speaker)]

impact immediately almost on the price on power markets.

[Sean Murray]

And in terms of the kind of US vs Europe UK comparison the Europe is very, is a heavy importer of gas. And typically what happens is that you have seasons where there's injections into gas storage facilities that typically happens over the summer and then you've got seasons of

[Sean Murray (continuation or co-speaker)]

withdrawal from those storage facilities.

[Sean Murray]

And obviously naturally during the injection season which is now coming up, the price worldwide of gas heavily influences ultimately the

[Sean Murray (continuation or co-speaker)]

costs Europe is paying.

[Sean Murray]

On the flip side, US is with

[Sean Murray (continuation or co-speaker)]

the recent shale revolution, fairly insulated as we've kind of seen a little bit on, on the gas side of things.

[Sean Murray]

And that is going to be something to watch over the next few years though. And the reason for that is when you look at there There's a certain decoupling between the Henry Hub price, which

[Sean Murray (continuation or co-speaker)]

is the price, the, the kind of standard price of gas in the uk, the us, and the kind of the, the price of gtf, which is the kind of European UK index.

[Sean Murray]

Those are somewhat decoupled because you, the us, because it's such a recent market, is slowly still ramping up its export capacity, which means that right now there's this decoupling. But we do expect that decoupling to

[Sean Murray (continuation or co-speaker)]

actually decrease over time.

[Sean Murray]

And the kind of consequence of that is right now there's quite a, quite a lot of insulation for the US market, but not at all for the, for the UK market. But that decoupling, you know, as I

[Sean Murray (continuation or co-speaker)]

kind of said, we'll look to converge

[Sean Murray]

over time, but yeah, ultimately when it comes down to our business, it's the

[Sean Murray (continuation or co-speaker)]

price of gas and the flows and

[Sean Murray]

the kind of status of the storage

[Sean Murray (continuation or co-speaker)]

facilities around Europe, because that's where we're

[Sean Murray]

operating right now is what really influences what we're paying and then ultimately what

[Sean Murray (continuation or co-speaker)]

customers are paying down the line.

[Steve Ehrlich]

Gotcha. And maybe just to sort of again, frame a picture for everyone watching and listening, $100 a barrel for oil sounds moderately scary. 150 is very worrisome. $200 is downright terrifying. And that could lead us into stagflation territory. Could you sort of put natural gas prices in those terms? And I know, I mean, just, I'm not an energy expert, but it's easy to remember, especially during the Russian invasion of Ukraine from 2022 on, sanctions put on Russian energy exports. And nowadays people are talking about the closure of the Strait of Hormuz. And while some oil processing plants have been shut down and it might take months for them to start up, if and when this conflict ends, the Strait could reopen immediately, theoretically. Whereas Iran's attack on Qatar's big processing and export facility, I believe knocked off 20% of its total capacity. And Qatar is a huge LNG exporter. That could have much more permanent effects from what I could tell. So how does that. Like, again, quite a kind of long question, but like, what are the prices right now and how is that actually directly impacting customers? And then again, like, because of this, like, big attack on the infrastructure, what challenges will that present moving into the future?

[Sean Murray]

Yeah, so I mean, right now the, the price of gas are basically about 50% above 50 to 70% above the kind of usual price that was kind

[Sean Murray (continuation or co-speaker)]

of, we would expect around this, this kind of year.

[Sean Murray]

And you know, ultimately that is down to you know, the obviously the disruption

[Sean Murray (continuation or co-speaker)]

to the straight of Hormuz and you

[Sean Murray]

know, when we kind of look at it like beyond just crude and lng, you've got like disruption further to and you know, not just gas prices but a bunch of other prices as well.

[Sean Murray (continuation or co-speaker)]

Right.

[Sean Murray]

So for instance, 30%, 34% of global fertilizers come through the strait. Right. There's also effects, so that's ultimately affects food and then also you know, kerosene is mostly sourced out of Qatar and strait as well.

[Sean Murray (continuation or co-speaker)]

So that obviously influences the price we pay for jet fuel.

[Sean Murray]

And further effects on that is like there's about a quarter of the world's sulfuric acid comes through the Gulf that is needed for things like explosives, which is obviously very hot and topical right now. And also, you know, we're finding things

[Sean Murray (continuation or co-speaker)]

like copper which is essential input to many things including a lot of inputs in the energy industry.

[Sean Murray]

So as a consequence essentially right now what we're looking at is gas prices are you know, quite like fairly elevated, probably not as aggressively elevated as what we've seen with, with, with oil and not quite as aggressively elevated as what

[Sean Murray (continuation or co-speaker)]

we've seen through the Russia Ukraine crisis.

[Sean Murray]

And that is in part because you know, especially in Europe there's been a lot of measures taken since the 2021 crisis to kind of, you know, obviously mitigate the, the serious effects that that crisis had and causing you know, kind

[Sean Murray (continuation or co-speaker)]

of the, the disruption to the energy markets back, back in 2021.

[Sean Murray]

And and so that said, like essentially what we're seeing is right now we've seen an increase, but not as aggressive

[Sean Murray (continuation or co-speaker)]

as what we've seen in the past.

[Sean Murray]

But however, one of the big issues that you know, that probably a lot of our listeners have seen is that you know, this, this disruption and this

[Sean Murray (continuation or co-speaker)]

attack on the facilities themselves, these are multi billion dollar facilities that take decades to build and a very long time to repair pair.

[Sean Murray]

So the, the, the, the long term

[Sean Murray (continuation or co-speaker)]

disruption is something that I feel like

[Sean Murray]

isn't fully being factored in right now. And people, you know, view that okay look, this is a short term thing, we'll see a taco and then you know, prices will return to normal. But in fact, you know, what we, what we're not really recognizing, what I

[Sean Murray (continuation or co-speaker)]

kind of think that you know, a lot of markets aren't really recognizing is

[Sean Murray]

that there are these really severe long

[Sean Murray (continuation or co-speaker)]

term effects on global cost that they're going to percolate and last for quite a few years.

[Steve Ehrlich]

And I think that probably leads me into my next good question. Which is again, you guys are, I think like, I think you described yourselves as a full stack power plant or a full stack power company. You do help generate for your customers renewables, but you're also from what I can tell, a wholesale energy purchaser and supplier. So you sell LNG and that type of fuel enter or you sell electricity generated from like those types of sources to your, to your customers as well. How are you, how are you hedging prices in this particular environment? Especially given what you just said that you think, you think people are sort of underestimating the longer term impact. And I'm also, this is all also happening right in the middle of an explosion in, in prediction markets where I mean oil derivative contracts on places like Hyper Liquid are, are seeing massive volume to the extent that the second biggest markets outside of Bitcoin. So like what are you seeing? How are, are, are you hedging? Especially in a world where while maybe it's ideal at some point to generate almost all of your energy from renewables, that's not really practical at this point.

[Sean Murray]

Yeah, of course, yeah, a couple of things there. So I guess first maybe just to give like a quick little bit of background on like the, the, the structure and the price discovery mechanism in, in, in power markets. So, and even if you're, even if your fuel mix or what you use

[Sean Murray (continuation or co-speaker)]

to generate your power in a given region or country is like let's say

[Sean Murray]

predominantly renewables, in most competitive markets actually the price of gas ends up setting

[Sean Murray (continuation or co-speaker)]

the, the, the, the price that everybody pays for, for energy.

[Sean Murray]

And the reason is essentially demand is fairly fixed. So let's say Steve, you and I

[Sean Murray (continuation or co-speaker)]

are buying power for an hour tomorrow starting at noon.

[Sean Murray]

The, the, the demand for power in that hour is fairly inelastic, which is

[Sean Murray (continuation or co-speaker)]

actually a big issue that we're looking to solve.

[Sean Murray]

And what happens is you, you have, your generators will bid in and, and those bids will be price ranked. And essentially the most expensive bid that

[Sean Murray (continuation or co-speaker)]

meets what the demand requirement is sets the price across the market.

[Sean Murray]

So even if renewables make up 90%

[Sean Murray (continuation or co-speaker)]

of your kind of generation mix, often

[Sean Murray]

it is the price of gas, the gas that fills the gaps and it

[Sean Murray (continuation or co-speaker)]

is the price of gas that then sets the market wide price.

[Sean Murray]

So often when we're thinking about hedging and looking forward, we are looking at, you know, actually okay, there's going to be, there's actually extreme sensitivity in power

[Sean Murray (continuation or co-speaker)]

markets to the price of gas.

[Sean Murray]

Even when you look at a cost

[Sean Murray (continuation or co-speaker)]

basis, gas actually doesn't make up a large cost to produce the energy in the first place, which is, you know,

[Sean Murray]

can have a separate debate on like if that's the right market structure or not. But so when we're thinking about this, we're thinking about our kind of trading operations and generally we, we operate a

[Sean Murray (continuation or co-speaker)]

very neutral long or like slightly long desk.

[Sean Murray]

And our kind of trading operation has

[Sean Murray (continuation or co-speaker)]

a modus operandi of de risking.

[Sean Murray]

So how it works essentially is we have, for a given day in the future you have a certain amount of demand and our delivery obligation is actually

[Sean Murray (continuation or co-speaker)]

unknown, I suppose, or forecasted, unlike maybe.

[Sean Murray]

And that's kind of a difference to

[Sean Murray (continuation or co-speaker)]

energy markets and maybe traditional, you're a

[Steve Ehrlich]

growing company as opposed to a mature utility that like.

[Sean Murray]

Yeah, exactly. And then also you don't actually know how much people are going to use. When you're looking at, you know, like if you ask me how much energy, you know, my customer base is going

[Sean Murray (continuation or co-speaker)]

to use in three months time, I can only give you an estimate of

[Sean Murray]

that because it's highly dependent mostly on temperature, which you can't, you know, you

[Sean Murray (continuation or co-speaker)]

cannot forecast that far in advance.

[Sean Murray]

So what happens is we essentially buy these kind of fairly like flat blocks and we kind of DCA into those

[Sean Murray (continuation or co-speaker)]

over a couple of months and we

[Sean Murray]

slowly build out the box to essentially what we think the kind of customer

[Sean Murray (continuation or co-speaker)]

demand profile is going to be.

[Sean Murray]

It's generally bimodal. You've got a peak in the morning and a peak in the evening when people are home.

[Steve Ehrlich]

I'm sorry, just to interrupt. When you're buying these blocks, you're buying these from energy producers, you're buying them from.

[Sean Murray]

Yeah. Generally on power exchanges.

[Steve Ehrlich]

Power exchanges. Okay.

[Sean Murray]

Yeah. So essentially you're kind of like slowly essentially hedging out your exposure to that

[Sean Murray (continuation or co-speaker)]

demand profile that you've forecasted.

[Sean Murray]

And then what happens is when you get, and essentially what we do is we look to kind of closed with

[Sean Murray (continuation or co-speaker)]

a flat, a fairly flat block buck every day.

[Sean Murray]

And that's, you know, more so especially

[Sean Murray (continuation or co-speaker)]

in the current environment.

[Sean Murray]

And then what happens is, you know, kind of day ahead when you have a lot more information about, you know,

[Sean Murray (continuation or co-speaker)]

the, the particular shape of what your customer's kind of demand profile is going to be and the energy that you need to provide them.

[Sean Murray]

You buy more refined blocks then. So you buy the kind of arrow

[Sean Murray (continuation or co-speaker)]

blocks that you use to kind of shape out the demand, which is very temperature dependent.

[Steve Ehrlich]

That's interesting. So you're, so you're buying these on almost like an hourly or daily time horizon. You're not.

[Sean Murray]

Daily time horizon.

[Steve Ehrlich]

Kind of like a Farmer who's, who's, who's selling a futures contract six months out so that you can kind of guarantee a price for your harvest. This is much more short term duration. How much more expensive is it to I guess hedge exposure to engage in this type of, engage in these activities given the heightened volatility for you?

[Sean Murray]

So it is, yeah, right now it's much more expensive. And typically what happens is that what if you're like hedging on under a kind of, you know, fairly market standard approach, typically any of the kind of customer, you know, price protections and stuff will reflect that by the time you

[Sean Murray (continuation or co-speaker)]

actually get to delivery.

[Sean Murray]

So you're not going to have breaking

[Sean Murray (continuation or co-speaker)]

regulations around, you know, pricing your energy too high.

[Sean Murray]

But you know, one of the other things we kind of love to do then is we look to kind of buy essentially a couple of other products that hedge our exposure to further increases

[Sean Murray (continuation or co-speaker)]

in generally volume and price.

[Sean Murray]

So that's kind of like our exposure kind of varies quite non linearly with both temperature, which affects both price and demand.

[Sean Murray (continuation or co-speaker)]

Right.

[Sean Murray]

And so typically you build out these kind of hedging blocks and then you shape them as you get closer to delivery. And then for specific either macro events or cold snaps or that kind of thing, we'll buy kind of more sophisticated kind of options or temperature dependent swaptions that essentially allow us to ramp up or ramp down exposure depending on the

[Sean Murray (continuation or co-speaker)]

conditions at the time.

[Sean Murray]

And I guess to your point around energy prediction markets obviously become a huge,

[Sean Murray (continuation or co-speaker)]

hugely relevant right now.

[Sean Murray]

And you know, one of the things that we're kind of interested in, you know, long term is seeing, you know, does this have, you know, institutional viability right now? The markets aren't liquid really enough. And also the kind of products that we would be looking to buy as

[Sean Murray (continuation or co-speaker)]

a kind of institution are quite complex.

[Sean Murray]

So like I kind of said, like I kind of mentioned with the kind of nonlinear effects, especially on temperature on your exposure and because it affects both the price of energy and the demand

[Sean Murray (continuation or co-speaker)]

that your customers are going to use.

[Sean Murray]

And we typically like buy these quite complex bespoke products that essentially scale up or scale down with the temperature. And then there's also, you know, kind of things like to consider like basis

[Sean Murray (continuation or co-speaker)]

risk between what the measured temperature is and the temperature that your customers are actually using, which is ultimately what actually affects things.

[Sean Murray]

And so these are the kind of issues that we're thinking about solving or would love for somebody to solve as we think about, okay, how do we

[Sean Murray (continuation or co-speaker)]

potentially bring more energy products on chain.

[Steve Ehrlich]

Yeah, it's interesting, I Mean the derivative contracts on somewhere like hyper liquid, I mean they're cash settled. I mean people are really just betting on the price. I would imagine you're actually taking physically delivered products if that, if that's what you're, you're buying.

[Sean Murray]

Yeah, you've got financial or physical products

[Sean Murray (continuation or co-speaker)]

that you can trade.

[Sean Murray]

And so generally like the, the products that you would see being like traded proprietarily would be financial products.

[Sean Murray (continuation or co-speaker)]

You're not actually expecting delivery of the, of the commodity itself.

[Steve Ehrlich]

Yeah, but, but, but you are. Yeah, you, yeah, you are versus hyper liquid. You're not. You're literally trying to leverage the volatility to put on a market position or something like that. And in that case temperature and those types of things don't really matter. Whereas for you, I mean you have to be able to deliver this. So you have to make sure the goods that are, that arrive are sellable. I mean it's very akin to almost like a refrigerator, a refrigerated container for produce that gets sent to a supermarket or something where you have to make sure that the products don't spoil on the way to transport. That's, I think that's kind of how I'm trying to interpret it.

[Sean Murray]

Yeah, it's good analogy.

[Sean Murray (continuation or co-speaker)]

Okay.

[Steve Ehrlich]

All right, so we're going to talk a lot more. We're going to get into sort of your movement into the deepin economy and the launch of a token based network. But before we do, let's take one more quick break to hear from some of the sponsors who make their show possible.

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[Bits and Bips Announcement]

before we continue with today's episode bits and BIPS now has its own dedicated home. We're spinning off from Unchained and launching a standalone podcast and YouTube channel focused on the Fed macro, AI and how it all collides with crypto. If you want to keep up with our weekly live streams and Macro meets Crypto breakdowns. Make sure you're following bits and bips directly. We won't start publishing until March, but getting set up now means you'll be ready on day one. You can find the new Bits and Bips channels at unchained crypto.com bitsandbips. You can also find us by searching bits and bips on YouTube, Apple Podcasts, Spotify or wherever you listen.

[Steve Ehrlich]

So we're back. Actually, before we continue, I need to do a bit of quick homework I've. I forgot to do in the beginning. This episode, as all episodes are, is strictly for informational and educational purposes. Nothing that you hear is financial or investment advice. For full disclosures, please see unchain crypto.com bitsandbips and with that, we're back with Sean and really excited to talk to you because you're launching kind of a token based Deepin Network. DePin, for anyone who doesn't know, stands for decentralized physical infrastructure. It has been a buzzword throughout crypto for years. But to be perfectly frank, I'm yet to really find a project that has successfully kind of gotten that escape velocity. You guys might be a little different because you've built from, as we discussed before, a very promising and lucrative business before even getting into Deepin. So talk to me a little bit about sort of the thought process behind, behind launching this network and kind of. Yeah, I mean, how, why do you think you're going to succeed when a lot of other deep end projects have, have failed to sort of get off the launch pad.

[Sean Murray]

Yeah, very fair. And so I think historically there's a lot of deep end projects that are somewhat of a solution, looking in, in search of a problem and are often demand constrained. And what we've seen is, you know, we've been wanting to build something on

[Sean Murray (continuation or co-speaker)]

chain since day one, since you know, three, four years ago that we started this.

[Sean Murray]

And we've identified one problem that is really, you know, not talked about enough that persists across the energy stack no matter which layer you're building on. And that's grid capacity. So right now we've got these burging like production facilities, generation facilities, and then a lot more consumption data centers, robotics, manufacturing facilities than we really ever envisioned

[Sean Murray (continuation or co-speaker)]

on our kind of grid networks.

[Sean Murray]

Our grid networks were built 150 years ago, Edison era, never envisioned to support the loads that we're putting on it

[Sean Murray (continuation or co-speaker)]

in the 21st century.

[Sean Murray]

And that has manifest itself in quite a few issues. You're trying to build anything on the grid, be it a new generation plant Like a new wind farm or solar farm or a data center. You can have the permitting, you can have the planning, you can be ready for kind of engineering and procurement, construction. But when you ask the grid, can I plug in here and either put power in or take power out, the response from the grid is often you can't do that because we haven't got capacity for you. And often what we're seeing now is decade long delays for grid reinforcements in order to be able to plug in

[Sean Murray (continuation or co-speaker)]

where you want to.

[Sean Murray]

And that's obviously got huge downstream effects on, you know, economic progress and development

[Sean Murray (continuation or co-speaker)]

and also just lowering energy prices, which, or the economy in general.

[Sean Murray]

Then when you're looking at energy markets, you've got constrained grid capacity, which often means that sometimes you've got a lot of, let's say, renewable power in a

[Sean Murray (continuation or co-speaker)]

certain region, when it's particularly sunny or windy, for instance, in that region, you've got demand centers separated from that and

[Sean Murray]

you know, this fine capacity line that often results in not being able to move that power from where we have

[Sean Murray (continuation or co-speaker)]

it to where we need it.

[Sean Murray]

So when you're looking at kind of like the statistics from that, like we kind of estimate that over 70 billion in the last kind of five years or so worth of, you know, renewable, clean, low cost power has essentially been shedded because we can't move it across

[Sean Murray (continuation or co-speaker)]

the grid to where it's needed.

[Sean Murray]

Obviously that's got huge downstream effects on

[Sean Murray (continuation or co-speaker)]

the costs of energy.

[Sean Murray]

And then finally, obviously, you know, ultimately, who, who foots the bill for this?

[Sean Murray (continuation or co-speaker)]

It's ultimately consumers, people who pay energy every month.

[Sean Murray]

So the analogy I actually like to use is that grid networks are suffering

[Sean Murray (continuation or co-speaker)]

from congestion issues very similar to how

[Sean Murray]

legacy L1s suffered from congestion issues. You've got limited network capacity, peak demand, and as a consequence network congestion, high gas prices during those times, and ultimately it's a scalability problem. So what we're looking to fix as part of this is essentially use these demand centers and coordinate, essentially making demand

[Sean Murray (continuation or co-speaker)]

more elastic to grid conditions.

[Sean Murray]

And what that actually means, you know, in practice is we want to connect to devices that are in homes already. So these are like smart devices, like smart thermostats, EVs, chargers, batteries, solar, that kind of thing. And then programmatically have them respond in when they're using energy to the conditions

[Sean Murray (continuation or co-speaker)]

of network congestion on the grid.

[Sean Murray]

And effectively what that means is if we can leverage all of these millions

[Sean Murray (continuation or co-speaker)]

of devices that are already just sitting in homes, like unused right now there's

[Sean Murray]

gigawatts of capacity, there if we can use those to actually respond to the grid conditions in real time, we can significantly reduce congestion on the grid which has tons of knock on effects into the kind of, you know, both the energy system and the global and the kind of economy as well in terms of being able to build stuff on the grid faster, being able to build manufacturing facilities faster, having less volatility on the energy markets.

[Sean Murray (continuation or co-speaker)]

So it means we need less provisions

[Sean Murray]

for reliability which ultimately means lower costs

[Sean Murray (continuation or co-speaker)]

of energy for everyone so we can do things faster.

[Sean Murray]

So that's basically essentially the core of what the kind of energy network which

[Sean Murray (continuation or co-speaker)]

is the kind of deepened project that we're looking to, to release is going to do.

[Sean Murray]

And happy to talk about, you know, kind of our kind of further reservations about being, you know, put in the deep end category. But yeah, I'll pause there.

[Steve Ehrlich]

Yeah, and we're going to get into that. But I just want to ask a couple of I guess clarifying questions. One, I believe you mentioned something like these devices are holding energy that that's going unused. I just want to make sure I'm understanding that versus sort of maybe devices that when I was reading about your company to prepare for the interview is more like trying to figure out a way to increase demand during times like perhaps in the middle of the night when like cooking obviously has to be done a certain period of time, but there might be times when other things can be done where there's less demand versus like these devices having energy that they could perhaps return to the grid. I just want to clarify that. And then two, just to kind of frame reference for readers, I mean we hear about insatiable data debate demands for these new AI centers. I mean anyone in crypto and we've covered like the conversion of bitcoin miners into like AI HPC centers and, and kind of how it was a gold rush for these because they have all this infrastructure and they're already plugged into the power grid. Like they take gargantuan sums of energy you serve. I forget how many, I guess hundreds of Thousands or, or 250,000. Yeah, so I mean I know growing company, but at what size do you have enough to really perhaps be able to offset the demand from these insatiable data centers that are continuing to build.

[Sean Murray]

Yeah, great question. So I guess maybe to disambiguate the kind of the wasting energy versus the kind of devices and scaling when you have limited grid capacity and you have wind farms or solar farms, these are big utility scale sites that are overproducing

[Sean Murray (continuation or co-speaker)]

often they're actually told to turn off because the grid can't move the energy where it's needed.

[Sean Murray]

That's a huge waste.

[Sean Murray (continuation or co-speaker)]

It's a huge opportunity cost on the system.

[Sean Murray]

And that's a consequence of grid capacity and the other side of things. And what the solution we're looking to do is when the grid is congested, let's say there's a lot of demand on the grid.

[Sean Murray (continuation or co-speaker)]

Right now, it's super congested. We're shedding, let's say, renewable loads.

[Sean Murray]

If we can get devices and coordinate them to turn down, we can essentially

[Sean Murray (continuation or co-speaker)]

reduce the load on the system to allow it to flow more efficiently.

[Sean Murray]

So that's kind of the, it's called demand response. And we're making, essentially we're coordinating the

[Sean Murray (continuation or co-speaker)]

consumer demand base to be more reactive

[Sean Murray]

and intelligent in responding to the conditions,

[Sean Murray (continuation or co-speaker)]

the real time conditions, the grid.

[Sean Murray]

So that's kind of essentially what we're

[Sean Murray (continuation or co-speaker)]

looking to do with the kind of

[Sean Murray]

energy network and the coordination system that's

[Sean Murray (continuation or co-speaker)]

kind of all incentivized with the kind of energy dollar token that we'll be releasing.

[Sean Murray]

And then in terms of like, what, how much is actually needed. So right now, you know, you can look at like a smart thermostat, which is, you know, probably got like a kilowatt or two, depends on like the house and the heating system, and that's kind of got a kilowatt or two of, you know, like flexibility that you

[Sean Murray (continuation or co-speaker)]

can ramp up or ramp down on demand.

[Sean Murray]

Similarly with batteries, you can go up to like a kind of standard is

[Sean Murray (continuation or co-speaker)]

around 10 kilowatts that you can kind of ramp up or around down.

[Sean Murray]

And then, you know, similarly with EVs

[Sean Murray (continuation or co-speaker)]

and, and solar panels.

[Sean Murray]

So if you can, like, it's actually the, the threshold of devices that you need to kind of make a difference and start, you know, kind of playing in things like power flexibility markets and kind of actually starting to kind of

[Sean Murray (continuation or co-speaker)]

earn for load shifting.

[Sean Murray]

It's actually quite low. It's only about 0.1 megawatts. So we're talking about, you know, 100 homes with, with, we're talking about 100 homes with smart thermostats or, you know,

[Sean Murray (continuation or co-speaker)]

you know, 10, 20 with, with batteries

[Sean Murray]

that, you know, can we can start

[Sean Murray (continuation or co-speaker)]

participating in power markets.

[Sean Murray]

Then when you're talking about like data centers themselves, you know, they go into the, you know, tens, hundreds of megawatts generally. So what we're talking about is, you know, tens of thousands of homes to kind of offset a typical data center.

[Steve Ehrlich]

Okay.

[Sean Murray]

And yeah, so I think like in Terms of like the economics, it's actually, actually kind of makes sense because a lot of these devices are actually already there in homes already.

[Sean Murray (continuation or co-speaker)]

They're just unused.

[Sean Murray]

So you could be, you know, you, you, you could have a smart thermostat

[Sean Murray (continuation or co-speaker)]

at home that you're just using for

[Sean Murray]

your, for your temperature when you could actually be contributing to the grid, providing

[Sean Murray (continuation or co-speaker)]

services to the grid and earning for that as well.

[Steve Ehrlich]

Okay, interesting. So let's get a little bit more into the specifics of, of your token and the energy network. I believe it's either, I guess Q1 is just about over. So I'm guessing you're going to try to launch in Q2. Can you give us an update on that? And I believe there's going to be a 10 billion token supply and you have some, there's different distributions for users versus investors versus the company and plan burns, et cetera. So just briefly, kind of walk us through the setup, the tokenomics, how this is going to work and what is the utility of these tokens because you got a no action letter from the sec, which really only comes when they believe that the token is going to actually have utility and not just be a tool for speculation.

[Sean Murray (continuation or co-speaker)]

Exactly. And that's something we've emphasized from the very start.

[Sean Murray]

We're regulated in two different industries heavily, so energy and crypto. So everything we've done has been with

[Sean Murray (continuation or co-speaker)]

an ear towards compliance, ensuring that we,

[Sean Murray]

you know, release something that's actually useful and not just, you know, an investment

[Sean Murray (continuation or co-speaker)]

vehicle or a speculation vehicle basically.

[Sean Murray]

And so how the kind of token works is very simple for the user. You know, user kind of logs on to our kind of fuse app and they kind of have to be, you

[Sean Murray (continuation or co-speaker)]

know, provided, being provided energy by us

[Sean Murray]

and they can connect their devices. So things like, you know, I want to, let's say, let's say I connect

[Sean Murray (continuation or co-speaker)]

my Tesla EV charger, so I sign

[Sean Murray]

into my Tesla and I grant permissions in the app. I say I want my Tesla to

[Sean Murray (continuation or co-speaker)]

be charged 20% or 70% by 8am every morning.

[Sean Murray]

And then outside of that, I don't

[Sean Murray (continuation or co-speaker)]

care what you do with it.

[Sean Murray]

You can kind of use that to provide grid services and optimize grid and

[Sean Murray (continuation or co-speaker)]

reduce grid congestion in the background.

[Sean Murray]

And for that I provide direct value and I'm generating direct value and contributing

[Sean Murray (continuation or co-speaker)]

to actually the energy system.

[Sean Murray]

And for that I'm getting rewards in

[Sean Murray (continuation or co-speaker)]

our kind of native token built on Savannah, which is the energy dollar.

[Sean Murray]

And for those rewards essentially then what happens is I unlock discounts on goods

[Sean Murray (continuation or co-speaker)]

and services within the Fuse ecosystem.

[Sean Murray]

So let's say later when I want to install a new solar array on my roof, let's say that solar array costs 15 grand. I can actually take the tokens that I've earned, burn them, which reduces the supply of the tokens and access, let's say, you know, let's say I burn $1,000 worth of tokens and I can access a, you know, two, $3,000 discount

[Sean Murray (continuation or co-speaker)]

on my solar array.

[Sean Murray]

So that's the kind of idea of essentially how, you know, tokens are emitted to users for providing real utility and real value to the energy system and then how they're essentially then burned and taken out of supply for, for actually like real utility in terms of, you know, value for the user more broadly. Yeah, so essentially the kind of emissions are kind of aligned with energy transition schedules. So we think very long term, we think that's the only way to build a kind of generational company. So the kind of emission schedule is out to 2050. And the idea is that we're slowly emitting to users over time as the kind of user base, the network grows. But then also as the network is growing and more people are redeeming where we're burning more and reducing supply, want

[Sean Murray (continuation or co-speaker)]

to burn about 50% of supply through

[Sean Murray]

these customer kind of redemptions between now

[Sean Murray (continuation or co-speaker)]

and kind of the end of the

[Sean Murray]

emission schedule, probably kind of how the kind of token supply works.

[Sean Murray (continuation or co-speaker)]

And

[Steve Ehrlich]

I am curious and I mean I understand sometimes talking about the sec, there may be limits to what you can share, but the token is going to be listed on exchanges. I know Coinbase has already mentioned that it's on the roadmap and I'm sure that it's going to show up on various Dexes as well. So there is an opportunity to get liquidity for the token. There are options beyond just redeeming it for discounts and then burning it. Did the SEC have any concerns about the types of exchanges it would list on or how many or was it really focused just as long as there actually is concrete utility and it's not being marketed as a security that that was sufficient to get the no action status?

[Sean Murray]

Yeah, I think like the, like the, the SEC letter was huge for us. So it was, and it was the product of months of like very constructive

[Sean Murray (continuation or co-speaker)]

engagement with the, with the commission.

[Sean Murray]

So essentially their, their main focus was around the utility and the fundamental mechanics

[Sean Murray (continuation or co-speaker)]

of the token as opposed to where it would be listed.

[Sean Murray]

The idea is, yeah, essentially what they cared about was is there really a consumptive utility to the token in the sense that people actually use the token

[Sean Murray (continuation or co-speaker)]

and burn it and extinguish it for

[Sean Murray]

actual consumptive value, which is buying something

[Sean Murray (continuation or co-speaker)]

that they're looking to acquire.

[Sean Murray]

And that was, that was the main kind of focus for them. And ultimately there was a lot of back and forth. But for on the secondary market side of things like the, the idea for the secondary markets is to, you know,

[Sean Murray (continuation or co-speaker)]

to facilitate,

[Sean Murray]

facilitate exchange between, you know,

[Sean Murray (continuation or co-speaker)]

net buyers and net sellers of the token.

[Sean Murray]

That was ultimately like exactly. How we do that, you know, is as long as it's, you know, compliant and the, and in line with the

[Sean Murray (continuation or co-speaker)]

kind of details presented in the SEC

[Sean Murray]

letter, there wasn't much further kind of

[Sean Murray (continuation or co-speaker)]

discussion around exchanges where we list or the particular venues.

[Steve Ehrlich]

And I saw, I believe I read somewhere that you're not going to be having any sort of airdrop, which is interesting. And from my opinion, I believe if that's true, it's a good choice because it kind of could limit the chances of just a big surge in usage from airdrop farmers that could then lead to a massive withdrawal whenever the airdrops end. And for a business and an industry that's already highly volatile, that's probably something that you're looking to avoid. Do you have any expectations for how this is going to change the usage, the growth of your network? Do you have any sense of what would be an ideal burn rate to get to the 5 billion, anything you could share along those lines?

[Sean Murray]

Yeah, sure. And I think this is again what kind of distinguishes us from like a typical Deepin category project. Like I think I would kind of describe this as energy infrastructure over Deepin because historically deep ins are, you know, very supply constrained. They need people to, you know, buy their XYZ proprietary devices and often they give away a lot of supply in

[Sean Murray (continuation or co-speaker)]

order to try and bootstrap that.

[Sean Murray]

Right. We don't have that issue at all. We're device agnostic. We have a captain user base of

[Sean Murray (continuation or co-speaker)]

hundreds of thousands of users already that's only going to grow.

[Sean Murray]

You know, we're hoping to hit, you

[Sean Murray (continuation or co-speaker)]

know, over a million users over the

[Sean Murray]

next, over a million kind of homes over the next 12 months. And so we're not really under that constraint that we need to like shed

[Sean Murray (continuation or co-speaker)]

a ton of supply in order to

[Sean Murray]

get people on board and onto the

[Sean Murray (continuation or co-speaker)]

network and using it.

[Sean Murray]

And we don't need people to buy, you know, our proprietary hardware.

[Sean Murray (continuation or co-speaker)]

They can just connect stuff that they have at home already.

[Sean Murray]

Although we are looking to release proprietary

[Sean Murray (continuation or co-speaker)]

hardware over the next few months, which should be interesting.

[Sean Murray]

But I mean, I think as a consequence, you know, ultimately, I think when I look at airdrops, I think they're going to be viewed, you know, historically as the most expensive marketing campaigns in history. Like when you look at like giving away $200 million worth of, worth of tokens to often what are like, you know, can be, you know, you know, kind of mercenary farmers, I think it's just net negative for the projects. And the way we're looking at it is we're going to like consist, we're going to provide tokens and distribute tokens for, you know, the, the fundamental value that the network is generating and, and not for spammy, like kind of, you

[Sean Murray (continuation or co-speaker)]

know, quests and that kind of thing.

[Sean Murray]

Like no shade against that if you want to do it. It's a great way to get distribution, but it's not really the way we're

[Sean Murray (continuation or co-speaker)]

looking to approach things.

[Sean Murray]

And we think, you know, when we're actually looking at, okay, we want this to be still working and usable, you know, in 2050, you know, after, you know, 50, 100 years of, you know, feuds growing and becoming like globally dominant as an energy major, the way we see and you know, the lens through which we make these decisions using that, it just felt like giving away a ton of supply to get like early

[Sean Murray (continuation or co-speaker)]

kind of eyeballs just wasn't quite like our kind of, you know, skin. So.

[Sean Murray]

Makes sense.

[Sean Murray (continuation or co-speaker)]

And yeah, that was the idea.

[Steve Ehrlich]

One more quick one before we wrap up. Do you have any contingency plans in case people don't want to trade in these tokens for discounts, but instead, even if they're not airdrop farming, they're farming for tokens and they prefer to sell them on the open markets so the supply doesn't decrease. And that flywheel. I know you didn't use the word term flywheel. I guess I am. But if that momentum doesn't start, do you have any sense of what you might do if that situation occurs?

[Sean Murray]

I mean, for us, I think, to be honest. Well, a. I think many projects you can kind of ask that for almost any project. Like what, what happens if the, if

[Sean Murray (continuation or co-speaker)]

people don't use the token Right.

[Steve Ehrlich]

And, and I have to be, to be perfect.

[Sean Murray]

But like, I think, I mean, for us, the way we've built this product is incredibly native and seamless with the

[Sean Murray (continuation or co-speaker)]

rest of the product as a whole.

[Sean Murray]

So, you know, we're using embedded wallets that, you know, essentially you get, you, you get your tokens kind of dropped for making these activities and it feels very seamless.

[Sean Murray (continuation or co-speaker)]

To like the rest of the product

[Sean Murray]

that you're using, that you're like using for your energy supply and paying your

[Sean Murray (continuation or co-speaker)]

bills every month on.

[Sean Murray]

And the way we're looking at it is that we, we're just essentially making it as seamless for the web 2 or the web 3 user to use

[Sean Murray (continuation or co-speaker)]

these tokens as possible.

[Sean Murray]

And like, essentially if I'm getting dropped these tokens and I'm looking to buy stuff within our ecosystem and these tokens are available and in my wallet and we say we can show you that

[Sean Murray (continuation or co-speaker)]

this is the amount of discount you get when you burn them and extinguish these tokens and reduce the supply.

[Sean Murray]

Like that is a very seamless and integrated experience for the user and it's something that it's like, it's a direct immediate value to the user that like we think is going to be, you know, a no brainer for them when

[Sean Murray (continuation or co-speaker)]

they, when they actually want to, when they go to, to buy these products.

[Sean Murray]

So we don't, we don't view it as, you know, having contingencies in place. I think, you know, especially the kind of, I think, you know, down the line, I think the, the kind of buyback and burn mechanism that is touted by a lot of projects today which is, you know, very successful extensively. I just, I think from a compliance perspective we weren't totally comfortable with that. And so we're really relying and pushing on, you know, fundamentals and creating value for the network because we think that's what is going to make this network

[Sean Murray (continuation or co-speaker)]

stand up for decades as opposed to years.

[Steve Ehrlich]

Okay. All right, well we're just about a time. Is there anything, I didn't ask you anything else that you'd like to leave our listeners and viewers with?

[Sean Murray]

I think mainly just, you know, if you want to learn about, more about what Fuse are building and the energy Network and follow us on Fuse Energy on X and yes, stay tuned. Over the next couple of weeks we've got some kind of exciting announcements and you know, competitions and events planned and you know, obviously we've got TGE coming up. So yeah, looking forward to the launch and hoping to bring people along the road.

[Sean Murray (continuation or co-speaker)]

Great.

[Steve Ehrlich]

All right, well Sean, thanks so much for joining. Thanks everybody for watching and listening. That'll wrap things up for bits and bits. The interview,

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