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- [00:01]
A
Hey all, before we begin, I've got some exciting news to share. We've been working on something a little wild behind the scenes. It's called Unchained On Air, a revamped live stream series and podcast feed that takes you way beyond the headlines. It features sharp, maybe even controversial takes on major events and the kind of on chain intel that never makes it to your feed. Way more shows way more often, each one laser focused on a different slice of crypto and finance. First up is Dex in the city where the wallets are cold and the takes are hot. With Jesse Brooks, Katherine Kirkpatrick, Boz and V. Lee, three powerhouse lawyers gathering to dish about the latest. From defi enforcement to token regulation and everything in between, it livestreams every Tuesday at 12pm ET. Second is uneasy money because what happens on Chain never stays on Chain. With Luca Netz, Kane Warrick and Taylor Monahan, three OG DeFi builders unpacking everything happening on Chain, from tokenomics to daos, from hacks to yields. It airs Wednesdays at 3pm ET. And finally, bits and the Interview, an addition to our group chat show in which our executive editor Stephen Ehrlich takes you deeper with one on one conversations. This streams on Thursdays at 12pm ET. To catch the live streams, follow Unchained on x, subscribe on YouTube or find us on your favorite streaming platform now. And don't forget to hit the bell icon so you never miss a show. And if you can't make the live stream, these episodes will show up in your podcast feed the very next day. Thanks as always for your support.
- [01:47]
B
So I was like, I hope this goes viral. I was initially disappointed because it wasn't getting a ton of traction and then Kobe posted that thing and I'm like, boom, we got it. Like we were like literally celebrating. There was definitely internal consternation at Avax because they're like, guys, this is not the type of marketing that we want, which is like literally a board member got involved, there was all sorts of stuff. But then the CEO played along and like tweeted something which we didn't even ask him. He thought it was funny. There was oh my God. And then I was like, oh, I'm going to get lawyers involved with this. So I started building this whole thing. Then I had other sponsors that we work with distance themselves from us basically so they would get more engagement.
- [02:36]
C
Hi everyone.
- [02:37]
A
Welcome to Unchained, your no hype resource.
- [02:39]
C
For all things crypto.
- [02:40]
A
I'm your host Laura Shin. I have to reveal that we are.
- [02:43]
C
Actually pre recording this episode. And before we get started, I just wanted to give you a quick reminder that nothing you hear on Unchained is investment advice. This show is for informational and entertainment purposes only. Heavy emphasis on entertainment today. For more disclosures, visit unchain crypto.com Are.
- [03:00]
A
You a builder who needs to add on chain trading to your product? The Uniswap Trading API from Uniswap Labs offers plug and play access to some of the deepest liquidity in crypto. It's on chain execution at an enterprise level. More liquidity, less complexity. Visit hub.uniswap.org to learn more.
- [03:20]
C
I'm here with Nick O', Neill, aka Chooserich Nick, CEO and co founder of Bodogos. Welcome Nick.
- [03:26]
B
Thanks for having me.
- [03:28]
C
You are a widely known kind of crypto character, a sort of brash crypto character, and you go by this nickname, Choose Rich Nick. And you do funny gags and stunts and you kind of take the piss out of people who take you too seriously. If I'm reading sort of like, you know, your origin story and the timeline correctly, it actually looks to me like your character was kind of created accidentally. Is that true? You know, go ahead and tell me the story of how you know your initial Choose Rich video went viral and how your character came to be so.
- [04:05]
B
Well, I've been in content for a while. I mean I would say that 2005, 2007, I was doing blogging, which was a thing at that point in time and I built a blog network. One of the publications was one of the largest in the world at that time. It grew to, I think this there was a site called Technorati at that time that would actually rank the publications and I got up to like 60 and basically so I've always been in content. When NFTs came out in 2021, I switched to podcasting. I had been, I go back and forth between content and development, software engineering and and so I had been through a multi year stint focused just on software engineering, got tired of it, switched back to content and that started as a podcast. Me and my business partner Pio created the podcast together. Guy Easy on our team joined very soon after and through that podcast we eventually ended up creating video content. I'd created video content a long time ago. I grew up doing like television production on local cable access stuff and things of that nature and I aspired to do that in the future, but I didn't realize that was actually a feasible thing. But I natively had been familiar with using cameras and everything else so me and Pio spontaneously, right before Choose Rich Nick had gone down to the Bahamas for ftx. When that had imploded and videos went viral, we got a ton of attention, but we didn't quite know. We didn't like double down on it at that point in time. And last year, during the beginning of the year, we went for a company off site. We had continued during our podcast. The podcast was the main business. We also have NFT projects. We have two of them. Nifty Portal, which is our ETH based one, Bodogo, which is our Solana based. And we continue to just provide commentary on the market. And in March of last year, I had come down, I was considering moving to Florida. We did a company off site here in Miami. And I got back from visiting friends in St. Barts, which is a very ritzy place. I sort of was feeling the vibe and ritziness of the, of the location. We got an Airbnb mansion that we had rented in Brickell here, and basically we were making content. And the first video that actually went viral was me on a yacht. No, it was actually a photo of a selfie of me saying, this is who you're trading against. And it got like 45 million views. And it was people just dunking on me for, look, these guys have no girls on the yacht. Oh, that boat's rented. Because literally accidentally there was. Well, not accidentally, without any, like, notice whatsoever, there happened to be like a rental, you know, safety agreement essentially sitting on the table. There were other things that people are just like, this dude looks funny, blah, blah, blah. And so I started actually just getting attacked for this stuff. And when we had rented the house, I knew there was something in there that had. I Choose Rich. Every time of these lights that were in the back backyard against this, like green sort of fake grass wall that was in this house. It was honestly a pretty tacky house. And before we left, Jack, who was on our team, was like, we have to shoot a video in front of this. So the Choose Rich video after the yacht basically became that. And it gave me a way to interact with people who were talking about this photo, which was not at 45 million views or whatever at that point it was at maybe like a million, which was huge for us. And we shot this video and it gave people the ability to basically be like, this guy sucks. And that was the entire foundation that was the. The birthing of Choose Rich basically, and Choose Rich Nick, which was. Was like. That became the tagline and mantra of this entire thing. And basically that entire campaign became something which was people felt like they were exposing me, even though I was like, yo, I'm making a joke to begin with. But then I'm like, all right, well we're just going to roll with this. We, we had seen, we had had the experience with FTX but didn't see that fully through. I saw you at actually the SBF trial and I think I was sitting, seated right behind you when in one of the places while you were taking notes, literally. And so I had gone down there to kind of do some follow up to that story. And because I still, my background is doing like self taught journalism essentially through my blogs. And so I have this like direction for news. But this character became a little bit of a different thing which is like frankly acting and telling people essentially like giving them an opportunity to dunk on me and feel like they're exposing me for something. And that whole Choose Rich Nick thing basically became a, this viral moment with community Notes where they were exposing me for, I mean, stuff that was obvious basically where they were like, oh, that bottle that he got is not of, of champagne that he bought at a restaurant wasn't 20 grand, it's only 2 grand. I think I spent like 500 on the thing at a restaurant or something.
- [10:17]
C
Oh, really? Thought either one of the comments or community notes said it was $85.
- [10:24]
B
Well, I bought it at a restaurant so it probably was like restaurant markup on whatever that. So you're probably right, maybe I spent 250. But if you bought it retail, they had the wrong bottle actually. So they were, they were incorrect about the community note. They got. Got that wrong. But that entire campaign became this back and forth conversation and that's something that has become a repeated format for us over the years is really that dialogue, which I think X is particularly good at is having that dialogue with the audience. No other social media platform comes close to it.
- [11:04]
C
Yeah, honestly, when I watch your stuff. So okay, I have to admit the first time I ever saw one of your videos, or at least that I remember, I don't know if I got the joke immediately and it reminds me of how so when I was a freshman in college, you know, the initial dorm room was three people and one girl and I in our dorm, we in the, in the room, we became best friends. She's still one of my best friends to this day. And then the third one, you know, wasn't as close but like we, you know, we were friendly. And one day the third girl said to me about my close friend Sometimes I don't know if she's joking or if she's being mean to me because my friend's humor is so dry. And I. So I think, like, you thread that needle so well, actually. So I'm. I'm so curious if you were to describe this Choose Rich character. Like, who is this person? Like, what Persona are you trying to affect?
- [11:59]
B
So I've been working on actually shaping it more because I think there's a lot of really creative opportunities online to build, do real, true character development. The reality is, is there's a blending between myself and. And Choose Rich. And I'll describe Choose Rich independently and also describe, like, myself and how those two things came to be between the two characters. I'll start with just Choose Rich, which basically, I mean, simply, it's a. The highest level is a rich douchebag, is essentially what it is, who effectively has incredible levels of confidence, delusional confidence to a degree where they think so highly of themselves, yet essentially come across as a comical representation of themselves. Now, there's many things that I think about it specifically about why the first version of Choose Rich went viral to the character is the integration with crypto. He's not just a rich person, he's a crypto rich person, basically. And there are a lot of people that don't like crypto. And much of the source of disdain and frustration is when they miss out on unfathomable wealth when they say, that, man, I missed out on that opportunity, and I'm so pissed. I knew about Bitcoin. I knew about Ethereum. I knew about Solana. I knew about these things, and I didn't buy enough. And we all have those stories also, everyone that's in the crypto space. I bought Ethereum at $8. I bought Bitcoin at $100, but was even familiar with it when it was at pennies, and tried installing the wallet on my computer, like, very early on at the beginning. But I sold all those things for moderate gains, basically. I didn't think, oh, this thing's going to be a hundred thousand dollars. There was a meme around it being worth a million dollars, but it just didn't feel like that. So people have frustration over that. I can. There's other elements to the character. I would say that I've been evolving over time. A big part of it, which was early on still was not just the confidence, but this desire to flex on other people, which is not my own native Persona. I lived in San Francisco, and I grew up in D.C. or Arlington Virginia. And no one there is generally dressing with Louis Vuitton or Gucci or any of these like, you know, gaudy brands. Miami has a ton of it. People in Miami love this. And I think that that's something that's very specific to Miami. And it also comes across as borderline abrasive. When people see that, they're like, oh, look at that idiot, spent $5,000 on a bag. Or like whatever it is, basically. So I adopted a lot of those things that I wouldn't have done or that a 15 year old version of myself would have thought was cool, which is like, you need the hottest chick. Oh, you need to have a ton of money. Oh, you need to have baller. Material things and material wealth is all that matters in life basically, which I know definitively is not the case, which is not my sole mission in life. I'm someone who's done a ton of therapy and other stuff basically. And I actually like, you know, am really focused on emotional communication and things like that. And that would never come across via this choose rich Nick character, basically my own self. I'm just someone who's like, I'm an entrepreneur, I'm like passionate about building things, I'm passionate about creating things. And I consider myself also this weird rare mix of creative talent and technical ability, basically, and technical talent which was just brute force. Me working on learning how to code when I was in college and building a social network before Facebook for example, or building like all sorts of different. A textbook search engine or like all these things. I ended up getting good at engineering as a result of it, basically because I wanted to go build something and I didn't want to work for somebody else. And so I think there's a lot of that desire that still overlaps into the characters that you see today, whether it be an Andrew Tate who's just like, I mean, awful and also probably not probably definitively morally reprehensible. And I think that's the limit where the line that I draw, which is like, can we avoid objectifying women? Is one of the things which unfortunately there's been some. I just had this girlfriend. So that we kind of are on the like pushing the limit of that basically. And can we do things without basically taking advantage of our audience? Which is something that I think is. Is still rampant in crypto, for better or for worse, basically. It's part of the foundation of a decentralized world. So I think that that's always going to exist. We want to do it in a way where we don't come across as the infomercial type which is what a lot of my comments are like when is he going to drop the course? That's what they're expecting. Wait, drop the course like an info thing on like here's how.
- [17:49]
C
Oh I see. So what is your goal like with the choose rich Nick character?
- [17:54]
B
Well we have a business entity which is Bodogos. Bodogos is also the name of our Solana NFT project. The founding of this business was built on the premise. There were two but the foundation was Barstool Sports for NFTs or crypto. There was another component which was Bloomberg for NFTs I built an entire analytics platform that was built into what we were creating. But Bloomberg still has entertaining content. Not the type that I'm producing. But I also think that media is constantly changing. I live through. You probably remember this from when blogging having an in line ad like, like which was not just an inline ad, it became an editorial was very like this was like a huge deal. And and I remember buzzfeed having really pushed hard and monetized heavily off of these advertorials that then became the standard of monetizing a lot of these publications. But at that point in time people are like well this is unethical, like I can't do this particular thing. And I think the same thing goes today where we see that you have to bring an edge when it comes to social media and, and that brings awareness and attention and there's a funnel that, that exists from at the top basically inflammatory stuff is borderline where you can go we don't want to do things like racism, sexism, like anything that's really can actually offend people. We want someone who if they're offended, they're offended by me. Basically they think that I am a like more so disgusted than offended I would say or just turned off basically like that guy's a loser, that guy's whatever basically. And that's me being the butt of the joke which is different than a lot of things where I see where there's other communities and people who are the butt of the joke which is what we want to avoid. And so that inflammatory stuff leads to eventually I'll do a news video about what's going on, the state of the market and I get more and more people that watch that video as a result of it and they say oh I didn't realize that this guy knew what he was talking about or had any sort of like you know, head on his shoulders. Like he just seemed like A complete jerk. Wow, that's interesting. Consider me a fan or something like that.
- [20:23]
C
And okay, so you're basically, like, trying to get attention for yourself that will then kind of trickle down to your business.
- [20:30]
B
And our business is a network of personal brands. So choose Rich. Nick is one of those personal brands. Po, my business partner is one. Clemente is another. Easy Eats is. Is the fourth main one. And there's a guy who does ops for us that sales ops and. And other oper operational things that he's building his personal brand as well. And so maybe he becomes a creator at some point as well. And we kind. We work on these deals together to promote crypto brands.
- [20:57]
C
And then when you talked about how the recent viral series of posts that were about your new girlfriend, you know, it was a picture of you with this woman saying, 43 years old, New girlfriend, new yacht, no kids, crypto millionaire. And then I don't. So I don't think this was planned. But then the actual real person, at a certain point, once she realized this was going viral, said she was paid, she wasn't your girlfriend. All this stuff. And then you made some videos saying, hey, you're harassing my girlfriend. This is somebody I loved. Blah, blah, blah. And then after the whole thing, then, like, it was like, what, 10 days later or something, you posted a photo of yourself with another, what you called new, hotter girlfriend. So anyway, you just said, though, that, like, you don't want to get into sexism or whatever, and you said you pushed the line with that. So talk a little bit about, like, what that setup was like, what you were thinking, what you were going for, and whether or not you felt like you threaded that needle.
- [21:55]
B
So we hire actors and actresses. Like, let's start with that. When we create content that's fundamentally like. Like, we can be always the creator, but you need other people to participate. And the reality is, is young, hot people can get attention, but that's not the foundation of it. Like, the foundation is not. She actually was really good at acting. And we were. We have a bunch of videos that came out with her where I thought she was doing a great job. And the premise of that was not all girlfriend content. Basically, you know, this is a conversation I have with other female creators, actually. It's like, well, what is the thing that we can do together? And I'm like, well, would I have given a guy the same opportunity to be in that sketch? And how does. How does gender play a role in that? I think we're feeling our ways through it. Our way through it. But she wasn't supposed to be the butt of the joke at any moment in time. At the beginning of that entire thing, she then, after texting her, ghosted me. Basically, in a. This. In a professional context. I've paid you money as a paid actress. We're going to pay you an hourly rate. You're going to come show up, we're going to create content.
- [23:12]
C
But. But did you tell her that you were going to say that she was your girlfriend in the post?
- [23:19]
B
Everyone on the team was pretty sure. I don't have a recording of her sitting there, but we thought we all wrote that tweet while she was there and then posted and she laughed about it, basically. So, like, my understanding was that she knew I'm going to be very explicit in my agreements, like, you know, like, and everything to make sure that they're like, there's no ambiguity. But we showed her our content and we've showed her some of the viral stuff that's happened and how that's gone down. So she seemed like she was totally down to play along, but. And her issue wasn't actually that we. That I called her my girlfriend. Actually, the bigger reason was that I didn't tag her. And she was pissed that I wasn't tagging her. She texted me that, and I was like, so it's hard to do that on, like, if I were to tag you in the. In the original video, that video would not have done as well. Hands down, like. Or sorry photo. It wouldn't have done as well because it was more around the. The dunking on me than it was about this girl. But it then became about that girl when she wrote her post. The only reason that post got surfaced was because I sent it to somebody else to say, yo, do you want to dunk on me? Here's her post. Because no one had it. No one followed her. They didn't know who she was. She had just created that account.
- [24:35]
C
Okay.
- [24:37]
B
Okay. So I. I took advantage because I was like, well, if you're going to be unprofessional, I was like, I'm going to fully take advantage of this moment and, like, turn it into a drama.
- [24:48]
A
Okay.
- [24:49]
C
Yeah. I mean, it was a drama. All right, so in a moment, we're going to talk about yet another drama that, I don't know, maybe went a little too far. But first, we're going to take a quick word from the sponsors to make this show possible.
- [25:01]
A
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- [25:59]
C
Back to my conversation with Nick. Okay, Nick, so I have to ask you about the Apex yacht episode. So I just need to say, because we are going to be airing this on Black Friday, which is the day after Thanksgiving. So if you are a parent and you are listening to this with your child, who is at an age where they are in an institution, that might say that they could be, I don't know, gotten into trouble for some reason, you may not want them to listen to this because they might get ideas in their heads. Assuming those kids have departed. Now, Nick, tell us what the f happened at this Avalanche yacht party.
- [26:39]
B
Well, a. Nothing.
- [26:42]
C
The. That's not what it looks like online.
- [26:45]
B
Yeah. So let me explain what took place.
- [26:47]
C
Okay.
- [26:49]
B
A team member. We were hired by Avalanche to create.
- [26:54]
C
Hired?
- [26:54]
B
Yeah, they were one of our partners up until last month. They got a new leader of marketing who came from Solana, who's not as centered around just creator programs. And so they've kind of abandoned that for now. But yeah, we. We are partners with Avax. They pay us to make content. We had done.
- [27:19]
C
This whole thing was manufactured.
- [27:21]
B
Yes.
- [27:23]
C
Oh, my God. Okay. Okay. Well, keep going, keep going.
- [27:26]
B
So we were on the yacht and well before the yacht, a team member there was like, nick, I need. I said I was gonna have, you know, 5 million impressions on this. We are nowhere close. I need something that's going to like, like, do really well. And I was like. He was like, you're. You're the best at the viral side. Like, we need to figure something out. So we went on. I was like, dude, I can't guarantee anything when it comes to like content and performance because it. You just have. You don't know. You just set it up so that you hope that it has the result you're aiming for. So I went to him and I said, well, actually, no, we got on the yacht. It was not actually Avax yacht. It was, say, I think was actually the official sponsor of it, but it turned into Avax's yacht. I don't know if we have beef with, say, or whatever the situation is, but a couple of people from Avax were there. I don't know if how much of this they want me sharing, but I'm going to share. So they basically. I had an idea when I. When we were on the yacht. I was like, so I need to get thrown off this yacht. And I was like. I sat down and I. There were two other creators that were on the yacht. If I should be Crypto Kaleo and the Wall Street Bets guy. Basically, they were on the yacht. And so I came up with this idea to develop an incident which. Of which we would never define. It would never be defined what the incident is. But something really bad went down, basically was. Was what I was going to say, which is like a canvas for the Internet, basically. So, so I go and say, I shoot a video. Why go and tell. I tell Kaleo, I tell Wall Street Bets and I tell some other people. So I'm going to get thrown off this yacht or thrown off. I'm have a jet ski take me away. And, and. And then we're gonna. We're gonna shoot that. You all are just gonna shoot it on your camera and then I'm gonna see who has the best one and we'll get something that feels like really realistic. And I had. I worked with Avax to draft a legal, official legal statement distancing themselves from me, basically. So I was like, so this is gonna play out in a series. And I was like, if all goes well, the Internet will take the bait. So. So we shoot. We shoot the video. I have Wall Street Bets. The guy who runs that account, President, I think it's called, like, Presidente, something like that. I was like, tweet out. I can't believe, you know, what this guy did. Oh, my gosh. And he did his own version of it. It did very well. He went into group chats that he was in and started being like, this guy's disgusting. Like, I can. He did this and never says what the thing is, basically. So suddenly all the comments initially are just like, what is this thing? What is this thing? What is this thing? What is this thing? One replier, not Kobe. Another person came up with the idea that never Got credited. That basically came up, put the idea of Art Basel together and made up this story, which was essentially based on the banana tape to the wall, which is this iconic sort of art piece that I think the founder of Tron bought. I think Justin's son bought it for, like, 250,000.
- [30:55]
C
He did.
- [30:57]
B
And then maybe. Yeah, I think it could have been more. Yeah. Someone in the comments was like, yo, this is. Oh, Nick pulled out his junk, taped it to a piece of cardboard, and walked around the yacht with it was what they came up with. Oh. And painted it yellow. And I was like, so that's ridiculous. I laughed because it was just an initial comment like, that someone had, like, written. Kobe sees that comment, takes it, amps it up, basically, and turns it into this entire thing. By the time I was, like, walking around Bloomingdale's in New York for Christmas, I had a family come up to me and be like, are you the guy that got thrown off the yacht for showing his junk? Like, this whole thing. This guy, his girlfriend, his mom. And I was like, that is me. That didn't happen. But. But, yes.
- [31:53]
C
Okay. Okay. So here I am, like, almost a year later, and I'm doing research for this interview, and here I am being like, oh. So Kobe's tweet says for anyone that is out of the loop, he taped his penis painted yellow to the wall, like that banana art that Justin sun recently bought. And this has 1.9 million. Sorry, 1.9 thousand. Sorry. Thousand likes and almost 70,000 views. And I was like, oh, Kobe always knows, like, everything that happens. I'm sure somebody told him what really went down, so I assume that's what happened. And I was like, what?
- [32:28]
B
So I was like, that's where the improv part starts. So I was like, I hope this goes viral. I was initially disappointed because it wasn't getting a ton of traction. And then Kobe posted that thing, and I'm like, boom, we got it. Like, we were, like, literally celebrating. There was definitely internal consternation at Avax because they're like, guys, this is not the type of marketing that we want. Which is, like, literally a board member got involved. There was all sorts of stuff. This. But then the CEO played along and, like, tweeted something, which we didn't even ask him. He thought it was funny. There was.
- [33:04]
C
Oh, my God.
- [33:05]
B
And then I was like, oh, I'm gonna get lawyers involved with this. So I started building this whole thing. Then I had other sponsors that we work with, distance themselves from us, basically, so they would get More engagement.
- [33:18]
C
But, like, they were in on it.
- [33:19]
B
They all were in on it.
- [33:21]
C
Got it, Got it. Okay, okay, okay. Well, now. Now the inside story is revealed to everyone. Oh, my God. That's so funny that I had this, like, warning on here for parents because. Because. But, like, I don't know if anybody knows, like, a little. A child who is especially of the male variety. Like, sometimes they. They get ideas in their heads and they think things are funny, and then they take it too far and then they, like, get in big trouble. Like. Like actual real trouble.
- [33:49]
B
Yeah.
- [33:49]
C
So I just was like, okay, I feel like I need to put a warning.
- [33:52]
B
Well, that would have been an actual crime had that. Had that occurred. But part of me, as that went down, based on the fact that everybody assumed that that was the case, like, literally to this date, people still are like, isn't that the guy that whipped out his junk on the Avax yacht? And I think from that standpoint, I was like, maybe I should have just done it basically. Like, I'm not the type of person to do that, by the way. Like, but it started like, maybe I'm that kid that shouldn't be listening to myself right now because that, like, I'm the person that's like, you know what? Maybe that is a good idea. Right? Like, as long as nobody's hurt in the process of it. Like, part of me was like, yeah, I should. Like, like, who cares? Like that. But anyways, yeah.
- [34:41]
C
And by the way, Justin sun bought that banana for 6.2 million.
- [34:45]
B
That's insane.
- [34:46]
C
So, yeah, it is insane. How did you get into crypto?
- [34:51]
B
The beginning was. Well, the first time was my roommate came and told me he was in a lot of, like, he used to play World of Warcraft. He was in these, like, different forums online, and he told me about bitcoin. That was the beginning of it. He was quite early. And he bought it and held it and did pretty well. That was like pre Mount Gox, then Mount Gox, Then. Then there was. Well, Coinbase came out. And once I was living in San Francisco at that time, I just sold this publication and I. I was like, okay, I'll put some money into this. But I did not put enough. And I was like, trading, which in hindsight was the dumbest thing. Like, I ended up learning from that entire process. It took me many years later actually, to understand the power of just investing versus, you know, trading. And, yeah, it was. Ended up not doing great. Then in 2017, when I was in San Francisco, buddy of mine who's actually an investor in US that I hang out with periodically still. He did an ico. And I was like, yo, these ICO things are scams. Like, this is. This is ridiculous. Like, I can't believe these people are, you know, raising all this money off of just absolute garbage and nonsense. And I started making, actually, at that time, video content, which was news videos about crypto and these ICOs, basically, because I thought that that was. It was just fascinating to me. It was the same way that I got into technology and startups. I was really interested in software entrepreneurship, but I didn't know anything about it. So I started blogging about it and I started interviewing people. I ended up interviewing Mark Zuckerberg, Sheryl Sandberg, like a lot of tech luminary people basically, that I met through my publications that were reading me like they were reading these posts. And I was starting to break news. I was getting other things like that. And so that became my path rather than software entrepreneurship. I have tried repeatedly to make software entrepreneurship succeed, and I have failed every single time. Outside of. I ran a software development firm that I launched and I built products for other people, and most of those startups were acquired. And so that was awesome. And I take a lot of pride in that. And the last company I was at, before this company started, it was called Growth Product Manager, but I did software development stuff there also. I helped them build their mobile app. That company went from 10 million a year to a billion, or, sorry, hundreds of millions, and their valuation being worth over a billion. And so that side of things, Basically, when the NFTs came back, I got back into crypto once again. So I had gone through the founding of it, kind of missed out on it, ICO days, traded it again, did okay, nothing big. And then 2021 came in. I was like, you know what? I'm gonna stop asking questions about this and just give it a go. And there's a guy I know, Mike Lazaro, who sold Buddy Media to Salesforce for like, I think 750 million, $780 million. And I almost was a co founder of that company, actually, because of my blog, randomly enough. But I turned that down. I don't know which was the better outcome, if I'm being completely honest. But I mean, if I had a huge chunk of equity, it would have been great. But I don't think he ever offered me a serious amount. But I watched him, and he's a very smart guy. And he said something which was like, I'm making a categorical bet on Facebook and Social media. I don't know what we're building. I'm just betting on this space. I'm an operator. I'm going to go make money. And then he got Mark Pincus, Peter Thiel, Reid Hoffman, and all these other people to invest in him. And I was like, well, that's insane. I mean, this guy's clearly so well connected. I looked up to him, and I still do as someone borderline kind of a mentor. And I saw that, and I said, you know what? I'm gonna do this. I'm gonna pull the Mike Lazaro and make a categorical bet on this space. That's it, and let's go do it. So that's where. That's what brings us to today.
- [39:26]
C
So I have to say, you were a pretty good actor. I don't know if you have any training, but I noticed you can do different voices, like, different types of accents, I guess you would say. I even noticed. And so I'm not like, I have friends who are actors, but I don't know a lot about it myself. But I do think you even could be called a good physical actor. You do physical things. I mean, even just really simply during this interview, you've done kind of this sort of. I don't even know what it's called with your hands.
- [39:58]
B
Gestures.
- [40:00]
C
Yeah, but then in the one video that you did where you pretended to be this Solana soldier and you were, like, marching like a soldier and dropping to the ground in the forest of New York City's, you know, Washington Square park, you even do these sort of like, gangster Y accents. I know there's kind of just a lot of, like, I can always sort of tell which character you're evoking. So just tell me a little bit more about that. Like, do you have any training, or is it just like a natural thing, or do you work on it or.
- [40:30]
B
I did children's theater. I did some local cable access stuff. I used to be in plays that were not even beyond children's theater. It wasn't the most. It wasn't viewed. I mean, time has progressed a lot. But you get this. Especially in poor neighborhoods, especially where it was viewed as gay, basically, is the way of describing it. And so if you were a boy.
- [40:59]
C
Like, I did a bunch of acting when I was little and nobody thought.
- [41:01]
A
That I was gay.
- [41:02]
C
But anyway, yeah, it's.
- [41:03]
B
It's. It's viewed as this feminine thing, which it's actually not. It's more about. Well, it's. It's emotion is viewed as A feminine thing, because men are not raised in a way to be able to communicate what they're feeling. And I mean, that's like literally a crisis that exists in society right now.
- [41:20]
C
Agreed.
- [41:21]
B
And so being in touch with your feelings is viewed society wise, societally, as feminine. And so that's something that's interesting. As I've gotten older, I've always had a very emotional side of me that, like, connects with that. But I've also learned the language of emotion, which has been great for, like, relationships. Not that I have a string of success, success there single. But the. The reality is, is that's been one of the strengths all along. And to be able to dig into what you're feeling is really, for me, actually probably one of the most fundamental things where you can. And I can exaggerate that stuff. It's basically say, what is this feeling? Take that to a thousand, essentially. And there's one other person on our team, Clemente, who is phenomenal at the physical side to a degree that I would almost argue is potentially better than me. He's very good at it. Now, we all have our own. I think what you get with a lot of people, same with actors, is you, many you in acting, and especially in like, Hollywood and places like that, people just get typecast. Like, it's basically this is how that person is. So I'm going to hire them to do that. Same with artists, if you want to hire an illustrator for your. For your publication, you go find the style you like and you say, I want more of that, basically. And so you kind of have to stick to the character. I would argue that a lot of actors that you see that are, like, really well known, they've kind of just played the same role over and over and over again. And so some of this stuff just came from my childhood, the neighborhood that I grew up in, the kids that I was associated with. And then having a degree of experience with acting was helpful as well. I also think some people are just natively have more experience with. With being able to do some of this stuff.
- [43:19]
C
So I want to kind of dig in a little bit more on that feelings bit. And this next question is a little bit uncomfortable for me to ask, but, you know, basically when I saw this, I really wondered how you felt about it. And you might have seen that Kobe recently tweeted something that was pretty direct. He said, quote, the reason I am now a large fan of Nick is because his entire bit only works because he looks a bit like a creature from the David Bowie movie. Labyrinth or perhaps from the Dark Crystal. He is so curious looking that it transcends unattractive and becomes almost science fiction. His face unsettles you and most of humanity has the same reaction to it. I deeply appreciate that someone is able to know this and commit to exploiting it for Internet jokes. Would not work at all if he looked like a human being. Didn't get it for a while. Found the trolling a bit bland or obvious, but watching him breach containment into normie Twitter a few times has made me a big fan of his art. How do you feel about that?
- [44:18]
B
That I almost agree with him. But hold on, I'll get to that one statement. The first time Kobe, when Choose Rich went live, he basically was posting a lot of negative stuff. And that actually hurt more than anything else, I think, was seeing people who I respected say negative things about me. In the sense that I don't care if you don't actually. Well, either you get it or you don't. And there's a certain level of. It's not even. It's not standard intelligence. It's not like it's. This is not a thing where you deduce it based on logic and reason. Basically. It's one where basically you have a connection where you can see through me and understand what's on the other side because you're intuiting the fact that that actually is an act. And some people immediately are able to intuit that and some people don't. There's no doubt that my face plays a major role in it. And the reality is like, I can't get a nose job right now, as far as I'm concerned because I think my nose is a key component of pulling people in. There is a unique state to that. But many successful actors are well known for their look. And so whether it's someone who's Brad Pitt or George Clooney who's known as the best looking man in the world, there are many people that are competing for that specific thing. I don't believe that I'm in competition for the ugliest person in the world because I do not believe that I'm the ugliest person in the world. I also find myself to be the older that I get. I think that, like, having comfort with yourself and having just the feeling good in your own skin is really the ultimate superpower. So there's no. It doesn't matter really what you actually look like. You know, there's all these like, stories of, you know, at least I'm not like In a place where, like, I can't imagine if I was, like, crippled or something like that, not because I don't think it would do better, but because I'd be suffering in pain as a result of the condition that I'm, you know, that. That I'm sitting with. So I don't feel that my nose or face is a condition. I feel that I'm a very smart and motivated individual. I think that I natively also have an understanding of humor that I think someone like Kobe is not as able to deduce. No knock against him. But if it weren't for people like Kobe, if it weren't for people that frankly have a tinge of. Call it autism, essentially, I don't think I would be as successful as I am because it actually tends to infuriate people who can't read certain degrees of my performance, basically. And so what he needs to do is he needs to logically conclude why I'm succeeding, and it's not as much. And so, like, I mean, since when was Kobe the expert on, you know, acting? Like, I never. I never viewed him as. I never looked at him for, like, movie reviews. So I'm not, like, I don't really care what his take is on my performance in something. And it's unsurprising that he mentioned some movies that I would think would come across as quite geeky, quite nerdy, which I don't view geeks or nerds as bad. I consider myself both myself. But I also don't think that they're inherently the best judge of the art of comedy.
- [48:02]
C
Okay.
- [48:03]
B
Yeah.
- [48:03]
C
I think this goes back to what I was saying about that old roommate who, like, she. She would say about my good friend. I don't know if she's being mean or. Or funny. And for me, I found this person hilarious, like, just so deadpan and so funny. So I think you're right that there's. I do think that's partly why your things go so viral, because half the audience doesn't get it and they're outraged, and so they engage with it on that level, and then the other half gets it and finds it hilarious and engages with on a totally different level.
- [48:35]
B
So 1000%. One. One last note on that. That actually is the most important part of the success of this content is that there are people that can't read through it now. There's people who I think are able to, or eventually they understand it. And I'm always concerned that that'll become too much, basically, that there will be that that percentage will be 90%. Right now it's gone from, you know, the origin of choose rich. I'd say 25%. Got it then. Now I would say that I'm at 50 to 60% actually getting the shtick. But yeah, that actually is a fear. But the reality is I think there's legitimately people who their condition that they're. That I said it was autism. I think it's something that's similar to that. And this isn't a knock against autistic people. It's just there's some people that take things at face value and that's all that they can see and that's how they digest and consume information and that's just native to them. That's how they communicate. That's how they understand the world. And so this just exploits that which I'm perfectly fine with.
- [49:52]
C
All right, Nick. Well, it's been such a pleasure having you on Unchained. I'm so glad we got to have this chat. It was so fun.
- [49:59]
B
I appreciate it. If you ever want to talk the business side as well, I'm happy to do that as well. There's, I'm obsessed with, well, there's the media side. I could interview you on that side actually because I have so much curiosity. I respect you for your journalism. Your journalistic integrity goes beyond borderline what I would consider reasonable for most people, especially in the crypto space because I think you've missed out on a lot of opportunities as a result of it. But I still respect it. And I grew up in a space when I was self taught on that, where I learned from people like yourself who really are hard nosed journalists that understand, you know, really strive to understand what's going on in a, in a market and in an area with an unbiased view. So I really respect you for that.
- [50:49]
C
Thank you. All right, well everyone, thanks for joining and hope you all had a happy Thanksgiving. Thanksgiving. Happy Black Friday and we will catch you later.
- [51:01]
A
Unchained is produced by Laura Shinn with help from Matt Pilchard, Juan Aranovich, Margaret Curia and Pam Majumdar.
- [51:08]
C
Thanks for listening.