Unchained Podcast – Bits + Bips, Episode 928

Title: Could BTC Outperform Gold? Plus, Ethereum's Big Advantage
Date: October 21, 2025
Host: Laura Shin
Co-hosts: Austin Campbell (Moderator), Ram Alawalia, Chris Perkins

Episode Overview

This episode of Unchained’s “Bits + Bips” kicks off Season 2 with new co-hosts and a deep dive into the collision course between cryptocurrency and macroeconomics. The panel – comprised of seasoned TradFi and crypto professionals – tackles trending issues from Binance listing controversies and recent crypto market liquidations, to the evolving stablecoin landscape, Ethereum’s competitive future, and the big question: can Bitcoin outperform gold? The conversation is rich with sharp macro analyses, spicy takes, and practical investing insights.

Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. Introduction and New Format

• Laura Shin introduces the new Bits + Bips team: Ram Alawalia (returning host), Chris Perkins (“Golden Hand of Coin Fund”), and Austin Campbell (now the regular moderator, replacing James Seyffart).
• Rotation of guests and expanding coverage under the Crypto + Macro umbrella promised for the season.

2. Binance Listings Controversy

Timestamps: [01:29] – [13:53]

• Background: CJ Hetherington (TRI Limitless) alleged exorbitant Binance listing fees (8% of total token supply, $2M security deposit). Binance’s CZ responded dismissively, calling the claims “clout chasing.”
• TradFi Comparison:
  • Ram Alawalia: Points out that distribution – getting assets listed and traded – is expensive in both CeFi and TradFi; compares it to traditional IPO fees.

    “Distribution is very expensive… massive centralized organizations have so much power and control.” [05:26]

  • Chris Perkins: Notes lack of “segregation of duties” in Binance, compared with strict TradFi regulations (brokers, exchanges, custodians separated).

    “Binance… that’s a dominant international player… he’s a broker dealer, charging 8% for capital raising, he’s an exchange, … he’s the custodian … In the U.S. that’s not permitted … there are reasons why you have segregation of duties. Like, that’s good regulation and that’s what’s not here.” [08:01]

• Market Dynamics & Solutions:
  • Competition, not antitrust, is the best way to lower fees and dilute power. The U.S. is “roaring back” with regulatory clarity and new entrants (e.g., BlackRock entering exchange business).

    “The ultimate solution here is always going to be more competition in markets in order to drive value for the consumers.” – Austin Campbell [13:53]

Notable Quotes:

• Ram Alawalia: “If you’re an exchange, what do you want? You want a lot of liquidity… You’re going to pay for distribution one way or the other.” [05:26]
• Chris Perkins: “Can you fault the Apple store for charging 30% take rate on revenue? … They’re acting in their incentive.” [09:24]

3. Black Friday: Crypto Market Liquidation Event

Timestamps: [13:53] – [23:55]

• Event Recap:

  • Massive $20B+ deleveraging wiped out leveraged positions across exchanges (“Black Friday”).
  • Don Wilson (DRW) summarized lessons: DeFi margin innovation is double-edged; lack of buffers (like FCMs in TradFi) exacerbates volatility; ADL (automatic deleveraging) is “a design flaw, not a market failure” if not transparent.

• Risk Management Gaps:

  • Ram Alawalia:

    “CEFI was also pretty much a disaster in my mind… What’s the take? The take is that perps are here to stay… but it hasn’t been figured out yet… We came up with principles… called risk waterfall… If they [the clearinghouse] screw it up, they should pay.” [18:57]

  • Chris Perkins: Argues that crypto markets are “speedrunning” TradFi history, learning painful lessons about rehypothecation, central clearing, and counterparty risk – but must improve infrastructure and transparency.
  • Stablecoins as Collateral:

    “Huge opportunity for stable coins though. I mean, awesome collateral for derivatives and I think that’s one of the biggest use cases that are overlooked.” – Ram Alawalia [23:47]

Notable Quotes:

• Don Wilson (paraphrased by Austin): “If DeFi is the future of finance, it needs to meet the same standard as TradFi… transparency, continuity and trust…” [13:53 readout]
• Austin Campbell: “We kind of have this habit of saying, oh we’re going to rebuild the car… and you get like an engine and a steering wheel and then you’re like cool, I’m done. Right? Like nobody puts wheels on it, nobody puts brakes on it…” [24:51]

4. Stablecoins and Stripe-backed Tempo’s $5B Play

Timestamps: [30:15] – [39:48]

• Tempo’s Massive Funding:
  • Stripe, Paradigm, Thrive, Sequoia, and others invested $500M at a $5B valuation for blockchain payment infrastructure.
• Strategic Analysis:
  • Chris Perkins: Cautions this is a “round trip” trade—big incumbents funding growth via inflated equity, riding the public markets boom.

    “Stripe and Paradigm didn’t need to actually raise equity... the valuations are so high they’re funding their opex… with external investor money because they can.” [31:02]

  • Ram Alawalia: Sees a “bigger trend around stablecoin and stablecoin distribution,” with the market moving toward customized rails and possibly competing ecosystems.
• Scale of Opportunity:
  • Austin Campbell:

    “There’s … $1.25 quadrillion of wire business annually around the world… so large it sounds like my daughter made it up.” [33:07]

• Winner-Take-All vs. Proliferation:
  • The ultimate winner in stablecoins may be determined by liquidity and fungibility. If they remain fragmented by jurisdiction or design, U.S.-based coins could dominate.

Notable Quotes:

• “If you’re drawing lessons from that space… the ultimate winner tends to be liquidity.” – Austin Campbell [33:07]
• “You probably see both proliferation and a power law distribution in terms of the dollars back in it.” – Chris Perkins [36:59]

5. Ethereum’s Future and Engineer Exodus

Timestamps: [39:48] – [43:08]

• Dankrad’s Departure:
  • Ethereum Foundation researcher Dankrad Feist leaving for Tempo raises concerns about talent drain and Ethereum’s commercial execution.

    “Tempo will optimize for itself, not eth.” – Ryan Adams (Bankless), [reported at 39:48]

• Ethereum’s Strengths & Weaknesses:
  • Chris Perkins: ETH has “good relative strength” as an asset and is “the TradFi chain,” but criticizes unclear leadership and focus compared to Solana’s BD-driven approach.

    “One of the main hangups around Ethereum is a lack of leadership around focus and opportunity set and what pain points you’re trying to solve.” [40:03]

  • Ram Alawalia: Ethereum’s biggest advantage is its decade-long operational record – essential for institutional adoption.

    “It has 10 year history, never going down, and that, that’s very meaningful.” [41:10]

6. Stablecoins: Market Maturity and the Next Big Thing

Timestamps: [43:08] – [45:13]

• Prediction:
  • Austin Campbell: “I’m pretty sure the stablecoin that will have the largest AUM and transaction volume in 2040 probably hasn’t been created yet.” [43:08]
• Stablecoins Will Specialize:
  • Use cases will diverge: retail payments, derivatives collateral, treasury/yield functions. Market is still “AOL CD-era” and far from maturity.

7. Bitcoin vs. Gold: Macro Perspectives

Timestamps: [45:13] – [52:22]

• Current Outlook:
  • Gold up 23.5% in the past month; debate if bitcoin is undervalued by comparison.
  • Chris Perkins: Gold’s run is a “dollar substitution play” fueled by China’s buying and geopolitical uncertainty, but warns of “devil’s bargain” – easy to ride momentum, but likely mean-reverting.

    “You have these parabolic moves, meaning the probability of the next day going up is very high… But, the probability of one month or three months later is actually negative.” [45:58]

• Investor Sentiment:
  • Gold seeing late retail FOMO (“NYT headline” is a contrarian sell signal).
  • Ram Alawalia: Bitcoin is the “purer store of value” due to fixed programmable supply and social consensus:

    “If you’re looking at a store of value, bitcoin is a much purer store of value because it’s programmable… My money’s on bitcoin just… because it’s more pure when it comes to its limitations.” [51:33]

8. DATs (Digital Asset Tokens) & Market Structure

Timestamps: [52:22] – [59:45]

• Boom in ETH DATs:
  • DATs like those from Huobi & Ripple attract massive AUM.
• Debate: Bubble or Market Evolution?
  • Ram Alawalia: DATs make crypto accessible to institutions unfriendly to actual tokens; brings value if fundamentals (management, structure, underlying asset) are sound.

    “You’re taking an asset, you’re wrapping it in something that is operationally accessible… opening up pools of capital that can’t access crypto…” [54:35]

  • Chris Perkins: Skeptical – most DATs are “attention assets,” pricing driven by personalities and momentum, not fundamentals.

    “Research on who’s got the biggest attention turret, and then you buy that… these are the momentum assets.” [54:24]

• Structural Value vs. Hype:
  • DATs fill a gap left by delayed ETF approval, but their success depends on design, management, and ability to withstand NAV discounts/liabilities.

Notable Quotes:

• “It’s a better product than an ETF, all things put together. I agree.” – Chris Perkins [57:58]
• “Some of these are probably going to die horribly.” – Austin Campbell [57:36]

Notable Quotes by Timestamp

• Ram Alawalia: "Distribution is very expensive… massive centralized organizations have so much power and control." [05:26]
• Chris Perkins: “Binance… that’s a dominant international player… he’s a broker dealer, charging 8% for capital raising, he’s an exchange, … he’s the custodian… In the U.S. that’s not permitted…” [08:01]
• Austin Campbell: "The ultimate solution here is always going to be more competition in markets in order to drive value for the consumers." [13:53]
• Ram Alawalia: “It has 10 year history, never going down, and that, that’s very meaningful.” [41:10]
• Austin Campbell: “I'm pretty sure the stablecoin that will have the largest AUM and transaction volume in 2040 probably hasn't been created yet.” [43:08]
• Chris Perkins: “You have these parabolic moves... the probability of the next day going up is very high... But, the probability of one month or three months later is actually negative.” [45:58]
• Ram Alawalia: “If you're looking at a store of value, bitcoin is a much purer store of value because it's programmable… My money's on bitcoin…” [51:33]
• Austin Campbell: “Some of these [DATs] are probably going to die horribly.” [57:36]
• Chris Perkins: “It's a better product than an ETF, all things put together. I agree.” [57:58]

Memorable Moments

• Chris Perkins drawing sharp comparisons between Binance and Apple’s App Store “take rate,” hinting that egregious fees exist everywhere dominant platforms arise. [09:24]
• Debate over whether the crypto industry is “speedrunning” TradFi’s painful learning processes, and whether real engineering is being ignored in favor of quick launches. [24:51]
• Panelists agree that stablecoins’ real golden age and dominant form is still to come, with institutions likely to create new models fit for their use cases. [43:08]
• The Bitcoin vs. Gold throwdown, with Chris predicting mean reversion in gold, and Ram declaring BTC the better long-term store of value. [45:58–51:33]
• The panel’s nuanced take on Digital Asset Tokens: valuable as bridges and yield enhancements, but still fraught with short-term FOMO and structural challenges. [54:24–58:02]

Conclusion

This fast-moving episode blends macro, TradFi, and crypto-native perspectives to break down the big news and structural shifts in digital assets. The hosts suggest the crypto market is at an inflection point – enduring growing pains but offering massive opportunity if it learns to embrace robust design, regulation–and, above all, competition. Whether you invest in gold, bitcoin, ETH, or the next big stablecoin, the panel demonstrates that sharp institutional thinking and a healthy skepticism are more important than ever in the ever-evolving world of crypto and macro.