Is the Ethereum Foundation Too Out of Touch to Save ETH?

Summary

Unchained Podcast Summary

Title: Is the Ethereum Foundation Too Out of Touch to Save ETH?

Host: Laura Shin
Guests: Zach Cole (NumberGroup, Ethereum Community Foundation), Greg Marcoux (Sprinter, Chainsafe)
Date: May 28, 2026

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Overview

This Unchained episode delves into the turmoil and soul-searching within the Ethereum Foundation (EF) and the wider Ethereum ecosystem, prompted by the recent departure of key leaders, controversies over the EF’s new direction and “crops” (censorship-resistance, open-source, privacy, security) values, and a sharp decline in ETH’s price and prominence. Host Laura Shin is joined by community veterans Zach Cole and Greg Marcoux to assess whether the EF is sufficiently in touch to guide Ethereum into the future or if another structure must emerge to secure ETH’s place in a rapidly evolving, competitive crypto landscape.

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Key Discussion Points

1. Leadership Departures and Community Turmoil

• Recent Departures & Reaction ([01:46]–[14:40])
  • Senior EF members (e.g., Tim Beiko, Barnaby Minow, Carl Beek) leaving in quick succession post-Tomash Stanchek’s exit as co-ED.
  • Zach and Greg frame this as natural “churn” for a maturing organization, not necessarily a death knell unless talent starts migrating to competing ecosystems.
    • Zach: “If ETH were at $5,000, I don’t think anybody would be complaining ... It’s just people’s angst over price action.” ([03:15])
    • Greg: “Most of them are going to continue to work in Ethereum ... it’s healthy churn.” ([13:01])
  • Still, the rapid shift after Tomash’s much-lauded but brief stint raises alarm over the EF’s willingness to cede control or embrace real structural change.

2. The Crops Mandate and Foundation Transparency

• Bizarre New Mandate and Aesthetic ([00:00], [16:37], [17:39])

  • A new, eccentric “mandate” document replaces clear communication with “deviantart looking shit ... just walked out of a ketamine orgy.” – Zach ([00:00], [17:39])
  • Panel agrees former co-ED Tomash would not have approved such messaging.
    • Greg: “It’s nice to see creativeness, but ... when we’re fighting for price, a little McKinsey won’t hurt you.” ([20:38])
    • Laura: “Even the fonts seemed kind of like a funny choice ...” ([17:08])
  • The “Seppuku license” commitment in the document is roundly mocked as out of touch ([18:20]).

• Bastian A’s Stealth Leadership ([19:29]–[27:43])

  • The mysterious new interim co-ED, Bastian, is virtually invisible.
    • Zach: “They replaced [Tomash] with this other mysterious fellow that nobody even knows ...” ([00:00])
    • Greg: “There’s like no background on this guy ... He’s making all these decisions ...” ([24:57])
  • Panelists express deep concern about the EF’s insularity, lack of transparency, and unclear accountability.

3. Accountability, Culture, and the “Loyalty Pledge”

• Loyalty to Crops, Cultural Fit, and Dismissing Dissidents ([28:04]–[30:16])
  • Heated speculation the EF used a “loyalty pledge” to PROPS/CROPS as a cover for enforcing cultural conformity and cutting staff.
    • Greg: “This is like an ineffective job at being able to fire people over the years ... This is their excuse to get rid of people that didn’t fit the culture mold.” ([28:40])
    • Zach: “They want to have their cake and eat it too ... not willing to go the extra mile ...” ([29:28])

4. Community Voices and Losing Evangelists

• David Hoffman of Bankless “Sells Last ETH” ([30:16]–[33:46])
  • Seen by guests as a business move, “not news.” — Zach ([30:51])
  • Recognition EF once elevated Bankless to prominence, raising accountability in “king-making” in the ecosystem ([33:12]-[34:27]).
• Duncrad Feist’s $1B+ War Chest Proposal ([34:27]–[39:25])
  • Idea of a well-funded external org to champion ETH’s cause.
  • Both guests agree the EF has neglected to treat ETH’s price/economics as a pillar of network security and ecosystem health.
    • Zach: “The value of ETH becomes the value of the network ... they need to drive value to it.” ([35:52])

5. Vitalik Buterin’s Post: Shift to a “Smaller Ship”

• Highlights Vitalik’s Perspective ([39:25]–[46:10])

  • EF will reduce its direct footprint — “one node with a defined purpose” rather than Ethereum’s center.
  • Emphasis on crops values and fundamental security (“ETH is the highest value product... security is entirely dependent on ETH’s value”). ([44:13]–[44:29])
  • Mixed reactions: Some optimism that this is a “turning the page” moment, but also frustration at the recognition coming “five years too late.”

• Notable Quote

  • Laura: “When the creator of Ethereum says the most high value product of the blockchain is actually ETH ... the fact that that's headline news ... he generally kind of like disdains talking about price.” ([43:15])

6. Ethereum’s Competitive Position and “Broken” Tokenomics

• Growing Competition from Solana, Tron, Others ([49:03]–[54:06])
  • Ethereum’s market share and cultural dominance are slipping, per Laura and Frank Chaparro’s data (ETH/BTC at lows, revenue share dropping).
  • Zach: “It was only a matter of time before somebody could put together a car that looks cooler and is actually faster ... We’ve had such a winning streak ... It kind of made everybody complicit and lazy.” ([51:01])
  • Greg: “It would have to be gross negligence to not be fully aware of what's going on. ... It’s the care. I think a lot of people internally don’t care.” ([53:50])

7. What Should the EF Do? Visions for Reform

• Immediate Reforms Proposed ([54:06]–[60:54])

  • EF must embrace accountability, transparency, professionalism, and board diversity.
  • Open up the board to sector leaders (DeFi, institutions, engineering) with track records and accountability.
    • Zach: “Make that board larger, make it public ... diversify your board. Include people from across the industry that are smarter than you ... Let's grow up and actually run Ethereum like we would an organization that can scale.” ([54:21])
    • “Having a properly functioning organization is not contradictory to any of the crops principles ...” ([54:21])
  • The risk: If the EF doesn't cede some control or reform, new organizations will force their way forward or ETH will keep losing ground.

• Specific Board & Leadership Recommendations ([59:40]–[68:54])

  • Greg: Need “grownups in the room” — leaders with experience in scaling, open source, and accountability.
  • Suggests adding external figures and DeFi leaders (cites Kane [Synthetix], Stani [Aave]) to the EF board ([65:24]).
  • Deep concern over maintaining “family business” internally; calls for open, global search for new talent and oversight.

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Notable Quotes and Memorable Moments

On the Mandate’s Design:

• “Looks like they paid some furry on Instagram to come up with some sort of manga-based manifesto ...” – Zach ([00:20])
• “On one hand, nice to see creativeness ... On the other, fighting for price, a little bit of McKinsey won’t hurt you.” – Greg ([20:38])
• “The copy itself is just as delusional and out of touch.” – Zach ([18:22])

On Lack of Transparency and Bastian’s Identity:

• “Why isn’t he on Unchained? Why aren’t you talking to Bastian? Do you know who he is? What color hair does he have?” – Zach ([25:07])

On Leadership and Accountability:

• “You gave birth to this child. Put the fucking kid through school ... grow the fuck up.” – Zach ([54:21])

On Ethereum’s Place in the Market:

• “There are serious competitors out there ... Maybe they’re all turning a page ... It’s just late.” – Greg ([45:53])
• “If you’re on a team that doesn't care about winning, then go back to the playground.” – Zach ([49:23])

On the Need for Professionalization:

• “More transparency from the EF and more communication, those two things alone would go a long way ...” – Laura ([69:12])

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Timestamps for Key Segments

• EF Departures context & Initial Reactions: [01:46]–[05:43]
• Tomash Stanchek’s tenure and exit: [06:11]–[15:32]
• Bastian’s mysterious leadership: [19:29]–[27:43]
• The Crops/PROPS “mandate” document roast: [00:00], [16:37]–[18:43]
• Loyalty pledge discussion: [28:04]–[30:16]
• David Hoffman/Bankless ETH sale: [30:16]–[33:46]
• Duncrad Feist’s $1B proposal: [34:27]–[39:25]
• Vitalik’s “smaller ship” post: [39:25]–[46:10]
• ETH economic concerns & competitive threats: [48:04]–[54:06]
• Future reforms/board suggestions: [54:06]–[68:54]
• Closing thoughts (transparency, ongoing process): [69:12]–[70:07]

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Conclusion

This episode captured intense dissatisfaction, frustration, but also hopes for structural reform within the Ethereum Foundation and the Ethereum ecosystem. The guests and Laura Shin pressed for transparency, pragmatic leadership, and more professional organizational behavior — balanced with preserving Ethereum’s cypherpunk values — to ensure that Ethereum does not fade in the face of aggressive competition. The undercurrent: If the EF doesn't adapt, new forces will need to rise to save ETH from stagnation.

Transcript

[A]

And when he left and they, he departed, they replaced him with this other mysterious fellow that nobody even knows and hasn't ever met or seen. And now they're releasing a bunch of like, you know, like I was. Now they're releasing a bunch of crazy deviantart looking shit that looks like they just walked out of a ketamine orgy.

[B]

You're talking about the mandate.

[A]

Yes. That doesn't, it doesn't make any sense. They could just say crops. They can release some sort of blog post. They don't need to put some stuff out that's like, looks like they paid some furry on Instagram to like come up with some sort of manga based manifesto that like doesn't make any sense.

[B]

This is what it looks like.

[A]

This looks insane.

[C]

Yeah, like, I'll put it this way, I don't think Tomash would have released this.

[A]

Greg, Greg, Greg, I know you want to keep it like not bearish, we want to keep it bullish, but you can't look at this and be like, oh yeah dude, that makes sense for financial future. This is a great place to put your money. Institutions like we're totally in top. Like this is what they release to prove that they're like, that they have their fingers on the pulse. Like I would have left the organization too.

[B]

Hi everyone. Welcome to Unchained, your no hype resource for all things crypto. I'm your host Laura Shin. Thanks for joining this live stream. Today's topic is the future of Ethereum, the Ethereum foundation and ETH. Here to discuss are Zach Cole, managing partner at NumberGroup and president of the Ethereum Community foundation and Greg Marcoux, co founder and CEO of Sprinter and co founder of Chainsafe. Welcome Zach and Greg.

[A]

Hello. Thanks for having me.

[C]

Thanks for having us.

[B]

So the Ethereum foundation. The Ethereum community has been in turmoil over the last week about several departures especially of senior people from the foundation and there's been concern about all of that. Plus then we saw that David Hoffman of Bankless announced that he had sold his last ETH. And we're seeing ethers trading at about $2100 and last summer and fall it was about 5k. And then on Sunday Vitalik announced, quote, the EF will be a smaller ship. And he doubled down on Ethereum's crops values as being its guiding light. Crops standing for censorship, resistance, open source, privacy and security. And all of these developments are just the latest in kind of like an unfolding two year crisis in Ethereum. And it feels like the community has These concerns that Ethereum kind of is losing ground to other chains, those were quelled a little bit in 2025 with the appointment of Tomas Stanchek as co executive director. But then he departed after 11 months. And so it sort of feels to the community like Vitalik and the EF are reverting back to their old ways. And those were the ways that kind of had caused a lot of angst in the community. So. But, you know, before we get into the specifics of, like, each of the events, I was just curious to hear each of your top line thoughts on all this drama. And Zach, why don't we start with you?

[A]

Yeah, so, I mean, I've been kind of banging on that drum for a while about the EF and their performance and kind of their attitude toward the broader ecosystem. And I think they took some steps in the right direction, but it definitely does feel like a few steps back. But overall, I think the sentiment and kind of like the way that people are feeling about the EF right now is pretty much directly correlated with price. I think that if eth were at like $5,000, I don't think anybody would be complaining about what the EF is or isn't doing necessarily. So I don't want to be too harsh on the Ethereum Foundation. You know, I just, I think that, I think that a lot of it is just people's angst over price action right now, which I think is out of the hands of the ef. Not to say that they shouldn't consider price and focus on that as like a, you know, security component of the network itself.

[C]

I just think that a lot of

[A]

it is probably just bare market things.

[B]

Huh. Okay. Greg, what about you?

[C]

Yeah, I think, I mean, like, generally the bare market and like the current price probably doesn't help too much with the general sentiment of things. I'd like to say though, also that they, you know, the ES probably been growing up quite a bit over the last, you know, since Tomash stepped in. There was all that turmoil that was like, back then when they, when they were looking at different opportunities, like even at Danny Ryan, like, as a potential option back then. I think Tomash did like a really good job at least to like try and realign where they need to be focused and. Yeah, I mean, him departing and then seeing like all these other departures, there's probably, it's like a mixed bag. You know, a lot of these people have been there, like most of them had been there like four, five, six years, you know, and so whether this is like time for them to just take a break, move on or pursue other things is something to still understand. But generally speaking, like, yeah, there's been a lot of growing up, there's been a lot of cutting of things that have know people have been historically complaining about for quite a long time. A lot more transparency. And I think like the latest news that's surrounded like with crops. Crops. Corpse crops I think is what it is.

[A]

They should just call it corpse.

[C]

Yeah, Like, I think there's probably some truth to it to a degree, but at the same time like, you know, it does feel like there was like a bit of a shift when Thomash left and to what we have now, but things are heading positively, which is good. But like, generally speaking, it looks like things are headed in a positive direction nonetheless. Because I think like even Vitalik's tweet kind of slightly changed my opinion yesterday.

[B]

Oh, wait, and I'm. I'm sorry, wait, just. When you say things are headed in a positive direction, what exactly are you pointing to?

[C]

Like that, like the EF growing up and realizing that like priorities, you know, where their priorities need to be and where they have to lean on like other teams, you know, to, to. To hold ground in other areas.

[A]

My only, yeah, my only. My rebuttal. My, my concern about that is that I feel like we've heard this before and they tried it out with Tamash and like kind of shit the bit and now they're just like, let's just go back to what we know, which is like infinite gardening and funding longevity research and like doing a bunch of retarded stuff that nobod world gives a shit about other than Vitalik and his little cabal, I'm just going to say it like the EF is completely out of touch. So I mean, now that I've dunked on them a little bit, like, I can also say that like, at least they're acknowledging that other organizations are going to have to step in. But then it becomes a question of whether or not they're actually going to like seed those reigns to any other organization that is more competent and more in touch than they are, because they just are. They're like funding hippos in Asia and all that. And like, you know, it's just, that's just stupid. Nobody cares about that. Like, it doesn't matter. Like, like we're like, Ethereum is no longer a startup. It's now a mature and robust ecosystem. And like, you know, you can't really like, take the same liberties that we did six years ago, 10 years ago. Like, it's just completely different. There's like billions, trillions of dollars on the line here and like, people's livelihoods are dependent on that. There are people with families or like my entire career has been on Ethereum. If it goes to shit, I mean, what am I going to do?

[B]

Yeah, yeah, yeah. So we're going to, we're going to get into all the specifics because I feel like each of the points that I kind of, you know, used in my little summary at the beginning, we can dive into each of those. So we're going to do that in a moment. But first we're going to take a quick word from the sponsors who make the show possible. Is my crypto working as hard as I am? Honestly, that's the question that got me into staking in the first place. I work hard for my money. It should be working hard for me. Now you can boost your earnings this Coinbase One member month until May 31st. Any newly staked assets will get a 40% boost for 60 days. That's extra passive income. Coinbase One is the ultimate membership to make the most of your money. As you know, this is how I make the most of my money. Zero crypto trading fees, 3.5% APY on USDC boosted staking and lending rewards and up to 4% Bitcoin back or the Coinbase One card plus this massive 40% staking boost. This is your last chance to take advantage of the 3% deposit. Boost your share of 5 bitcoin if you out predict pro basketball Coach, lethal shooter plus a chance at a private shooting session. A $50 Bitcoin bonus when you spend $100 on a new Coinbase One card in the first 30 days and the 20% discount on the first year of annual plans on all end in just a few days. Score your boost before May 31 at coinbase.com Unchained head over to coinbase.com Unchained last chance to join at coinbase.com Unchained before member month ends. No purchase necessary. See rules and other ways to enter terms apply to other offers. Futures swaps via Coinbase Financial markets. Risk of 100% loss payouts. Event based. Not investment advice not available in Nevada. Coinbase OneCard is offered through Coinbase Inc. And Cardless Inc. Cards issued by First Electronic Bank. Bitcoin back rates are based on cardholders assets on Coinbase. Back to my conversation with Zach and Greg. So both of you kind of hinted at this before, but you know to my mind, actually, the fact that so many of the recent departures from the foundation were actually senior people who'd been there quite a while, and we're extremely well known in the community, that actually didn't seem bullish to me. In fact, it seemed quite concerning. But it feels like you guys are not that concerned or. Yeah, just talk about your reaction because, you know, to my mind, several of these are like, true evangel evangelists.

[A]

Yeah, I don't think it's super concerning. I mean, mature organizations have churn, you know, and those guys have been around

[B]

for a minute and wait, even the fact that they all happened in the wake of Tomash leaving, basically just within the span of three months.

[A]

I'm not saying it's bullish by any means. I'm just saying that it is a signal of a maturing ecosystem. And maybe not necessarily. Maybe the EF isn't maturing. Maybe it's regressing from what it did with Tamash. I don't know. Either way, the ecosystem itself is growing. And if these people don't have. If they're not aligned with what's going on with internally in the ef, it's probably better that they just leave and start their own thing. Like, I'm sure that they'll keep working in this ecosystem, or at least I hope so. So it's kind of hard to really make a prediction without, like, on the long tail, without, like, seeing how it plays out and, like, what's going on in these people's heads, because I hadn't really spoken to any of them, so I don't really know exactly what's going on. I'm just kind of guessing, you know.

[B]

Yeah. And just because I didn't actually name them, but. But I do want to. You know, some of them are Tim Baco, Barnaby Minow, Josh Stark, Trent, Trent Van Epps, Carl Beek, Julian Ma. Like, these are. These are well known, right?

[A]

They're well known. But what. Honestly, what have those. Like, not to disrespect anything that they've done. What have they done recently? Like, what have those people contributed to the EF and to the broader ecosystem recently?

[B]

I mean, like, I don't know if each thing that they were doing would have their name on it necessarily, but are you saying that you don't even feel like they were that important or.

[A]

I'm not saying that they're not important. I just feel like that they were essentially tenured to some extent and they're kind of just, like, taking on hobby projects. And doing X, Y and Z. And if they were doing large things and they're responsible for larger initiatives, then maybe that's another failure of the Ethereum foundation for not highlighting the initiatives that they're leading. Because personally, I don't really know what the EF is doing. I don't know what any individual employee is doing there. I don't know what the board is doing. I don't know anything. All I know is what Vitalik says, and that's pretty much it. So I think that would just be another failure on their behalf to highlight what people are doing, because as involved in the ecosystem as I am, I can't even say what they were doing, aside from Trent working on Protocol Guild. Yeah.

[B]

And Greg, what about you?

[C]

I mean, like, I wouldn't find it cons. Like, is it. Is it bullish? Like, probably, like, no, but am I concerned yet? Like, yeah, I wouldn't be concerned unless we see like, an exodus go to, like, other ecosystems.

[A]

Yeah, that's a good point.

[C]

I check and read on. Most of this is like, this isn't like a max resneck, you know. You know, two birds up. Like, you know, I'm done with you guys. You know, Solana and TO are. My God. This is just. I. From what I've heard, like, most of them are going to continue to, like, work. You know what I mean? Like, they're going to continue to like, do stuff in Ethereum. It just maybe, you know, just not in the ef. And I think that's like, healthy churn. Like Zach said, it's. It's only when an organization goes like, negative like this, when they all start, you know, getting picked up by other teams. And that's probably to like. Yeah, at that point it's. It's probably due to like, a various amount of other reasons.

[A]

Yeah, if they start building in Solana, then we're.

[C]

Yeah, but they're also like, they've been around like, they churned like Peter last

[B]

year, Peter Salaki from. Yeah, it was.

[C]

Yeah, it was a natural churn. He like, didn't do anything for like six to 12 months. He would, like, show up one or two PRs a month. You know, I'm. I'm giving him not enough credit, but, like, you know, like, the output, like slowly dropped and dropped and dropped. And then it was just like, all right, I'm moving on. Right. And they did. None of these people have had as big of a blowout exit that he did. Like, his actually bad.

[B]

But what. So, but what about the fact that all of this is happening after Tomato stepped down and he only came in 11 months prior. And when he came in that was really in response to changes that the community was demanding and kind of discontent really amongst the community. And you know, when he started people loved him, just like the praise I would see for him on the timeline. And he was just so open. He was very clearly kind of like talking and listening to all the builders that he could. And so it was a real shock when he stepped down so quickly because it really felt like the community was extremely happy with him. And so, you know, it kind of indicated almost like the foundation was going to go back to not really listening to the community. But I'm curious to hear like why you even think that happened at all.

[A]

I think that they, I think that they gave in to the pressure from the community but they didn't really want to cede any control at all. So they put Tomash in there and they didn't even give him any like rent free reign. He, he, he was still co director whatever with like coed with, with. Yeah. So you know, like he never actually had the chance to implement the type of change that he wanted to see within an organization that's actually real. And when he tried to push to institute those changes, he essentially. I think, what I think happened is he got run out because he, he's not conforming to the whole like infinite garden like nonsense that, that we, we've seen. And you know, and then when he left and they, he departed, they replaced him with this other mysterious fellow that nobody even knows and hasn't ever met or seen. And now they're releasing a bunch of like, you know, like I was. Now they're releasing a bunch of crazy deviant art looking that looks like they just walked out of a ketamine orgy.

[B]

You're talking about the mandate.

[A]

Yes. That doesn't, it doesn't make any sense. They could just say crops. They can release some sort of blog post. They don't need to put some stuff out that's like, looks like they paid some furry on Instagram to like come up with some sort of manga based manifesto that like doesn't make any sense. Like, you know, it's just, it's, it's. That's crazy. That's like super bearish. Like I don't want to see that out of the organization that's responsible for the financial future of my child.

[B]

One must show it on the screen so people can see. Yeah, we were kind of laughing at, at the document. No, no, it should be a PDF. Should be a PDF. And yeah, it's. It definitely has a certain aesthetic. Like, even the fonts seemed kind of like a funny choice to me. But yeah, so, okay, so. So we're kind of like jumping ahead, but okay, let's do this. We're gonna. Let's talk about that. So, yeah, this is what it looks like.

[A]

This looks insane.

[B]

Yeah.

[C]

Like, I'll put it this way. I don't think Tomash would have released this.

[A]

Greg, I know you want to keep it like, not bearish. We want to keep it bullish. But you can't look at this and be like, oh yeah, dude, that makes sense. For financial future, this is a great place to put your money. Institutions, like, we're totally in top. Like, this is what they release to prove that they're like, that they have their fingers on the pulse. Like, I would have left the organization too. I would really. Like what? And then it says that they have to kill themselves. Come on, dude.

[B]

Wait, wait, wait.

[C]

It does.

[A]

Okay, yeah, there's the Sepuku license. That's like maybe Ethereum foundation fall on our swords and blah, blah, blah. If we ever fail to do this, X, Y and Z. And it's like, dude, come on. If it was just like weird looking design, that's like one thing. But the copy itself is just as delusional and out of touch.

[B]

Oh, you're talking about. This is on page 11 at the bottom. It's like a, A little. Yeah. Manga cartoon. Yeah.

[C]

Yeah.

[B]

Well, so, okay, so neither of you know Bastian because. Okay, let. We're going to skip ahead to, to Vitalik's post on Sunday just because like something that was interesting to me was in his post. He said. Hold on. He said something. I just want to find the exact quote. I think he said something like, Bastian is leading this transition at the foundation. That's what he said. So do you think that the mandate came from Bastion or do you think it came from Vitalik? Or maybe it doesn't matter.

[A]

But like, I mean, so the EF has a board. Vitalik is majority on the, on that board. So regardless of whatever he says, if you look at like a corporate org chart, like Vitalik is at the top and he's in his legal right to do whatever he wants to do. So he can say that, like it's decentralized or somebody else is leading or somebody else wants to do this, but that's not really how it is in practice. The EF is essentially the mouthpiece for Vitalik. That's just how it is. And you can't deny that. So whatever he wants to say, whether they like it or not, he's in charge of the Ethereum foundation, so nothing's going to happen without his approval.

[B]

Greg, what do you think of that? Do you agree?

[A]

Yeah.

[C]

I mean, generally speaking, from that perspective, I don't think this is, like, anything different than what we had, like, I don't know, a decade ago, with all the drama of, like, you know, super shadowy government inside the ef. Yeah, like, I mean, like, it's just like more. Yeah, yeah. It's just more transparent, but it's just obvious.

[A]

Yeah,

[C]

like, yeah, like, there's no way that both of them didn't sign off on it, which is, I think, the concerning aspect of this because, like, as Zach delightfully pointed out, it just looks like, you know, on one hand, like, it's nice to see, like, you know, creativeness. On the other hand, I think, like, when we're fighting for like a price, you know, report, so to speak, especially at a mandate level, it's like, a little bit of McKinsey won't hurt you. Like, it'll probably help.

[A]

Yeah, right.

[C]

And there's a fine balance, right?

[A]

Summer camp, dude.

[C]

Like, this is an art school.

[B]

Okay, you guys, this is. This is cracking me up. Well, so. So one thing is, and I can't remember if I asked you this specifically, but do you think that the recent departures have to do with Tamash also no longer being coed? Or. Or do you think it's just, like, the timing is.

[A]

I think that Tamash leaving was kind of like, made it obvious that, you know. No. That the people at the EF don't really have the intention of actually delivering on what they're promising the community. I think it's just kind of like, you know, hot air. That's what I think. And there's no actual intention to like, make good on any of the, you know, what they're saying, because if they did, then we. We'd see more than just words. We would see action. You know, like, what. What should happen from. If Vitalik actually wants to put his money where his mouth is, what he would. What he could do. And like, let's say that he doesn't want to seed control of the EF and seed control of the ecosystem entirely.

[C]

Right.

[A]

Like, he wants to maintain that power and concentrate it in the app. Cool. That's great. Sure. Just like, be. Be open about that and then also open up the board. Why don't they add why don't they appoint other board members that come from defi, that come from different protocols, that come from an institutional background that are all public, public figures that have a track record that we can hold accountable as opposed to just this random dude who's out there and we have to like put together a bunch of pieces across the Internet to figure out who he is. And when we look up his name, you get this weird, like similarly psychopathic weird, like, like documents out there, like the guy's personal website. Maybe it's not him, but if it were me, if there were a Zach Cole.com out there that was saying a bunch of crazy psychobabble bullshit, I would be like, hey guys, there's another Zach Cole in the world that's even more unhinged than I am. Like, let me, let me just show you. Like this isn't me. Right. But instead we don't hear anything. We don't know who these people are. We have no idea who's making any sort of decision decisions that, that, that, that impact like, you know, everybody's ability to survive within this ecosystem and like directly contribute to its health or otherwise.

[B]

Yeah. Greg, do you want to add anything?

[C]

I mean, it's just like, I'm pretty sure Tomash was on like one, a two year term with like one year renewal dates on it. And I think it's like when I saw him leave, it was pretty clear to me that like it's just not working. Sure. Like you could probably claim like the AI psychosis like was like peak at that point in time as well. And maybe it was like, I want to do something different, but like if you're trying to make an impact and a change, like you got to give it like two years. I mean, you know, like big orgs like that don't move fast generally speaking. And again, like, you know, I'll go back to the shadow government era. It's like, like how is accent? It's, you know, I know there's people in the EF that know who Bastian is. And like, he may be this great guy, but like when it comes to like centerfold Ethereum, it's like nobody knows who this is. He's making all these decisions to just like ax a bunch of people and ax a bunch of stuff, put out a bunch of stuff. Um, whether, sorry. And when I say acts, I don't mean like the people that departed, I mean like, you know, like they're, they've cut funding for a bunch of shit.

[A]

Yeah, he's making a lot of major decisions.

[C]

Yeah, he's just doing a bunch of stuff. And, like, I don't. There's, like, no background on this guy. You know, why.

[A]

Why isn't he on Unchained? Why are Greg and I here? Like, why aren't you talking to bastard? Like, you know, like, do you know who he is? Have you ever. Do you know what he looks like? Like, what color hair does he have?

[B]

No, I tried to figure that out. I. I messaged. I found a photo of a bastion A on the Internet, and I asked the EF if that was him, and they said no. And I got physical descriptions from people who know what he looks like. And, yeah, they definitely wasn't him, but D.B.

[A]

cooper, like.

[B]

Like. Like, this is what I kind of said in my post. And the EF Comms person was so mad at me. But, like, you know, he is such a contrast to Tomash, right? It's like Tomash was out there. He was talking to people. Like, you could meet him. He. You know, he had a presence on the Internet, like on. On X. Like, he just was engaging in every way in person online. Like, you know, he kind of. He was a visible presence. He had his hands in things, and he gave people confidence because they could kind of see what he was up to. Bastian, it's like, no history. You know, you cannot find him online except the strange website that we can't even confirm if that's him. Then there's like, the fact that even as this interim coed position that he has. He just has barely tweeted since the announcement. And then. But the other thing, too, is, like, they said he's the interim coed, but there's literally no information about how they're trying to find the new editor. You know, what the next steps are, like, what the process is just, like. It's just. He's interim. That's it. Information. So. Okay. Oh. Huh.

[C]

Yeah. This is. I mean, like, this is just, like, a repeat pattern of, like, a lot of things. I said this on Twitter, like, the other day. It's like, the EF in general, they've never talked to anybody, you know? Like, I know for a fact there are L2s, like, historically that were, like, pissed off because, like, they had never had a conversation about, like, you know, anything when it was come to marketing, when it came to, like, really anything. It was offhand. Researchers would. But, like, there was never, like, the org itself would. I know Tamash, like, attempted to change that. And there's only, like, as of recent, like, people actually Focus on Defi. Like Charles. Charles and I think it's Yvonne. And they're like, actually going out doing the work, you know, but it. It took like, 10 years to get to this point.

[A]

Yeah, yeah. Now DeFi TVL is, like, low. It's like, too late. Too little too late.

[C]

Yeah. And it's just like a repeat. It just feels the repeat. Right. Where like, this new guy, sure, he might be a great person, but none of us, no one's been able to actually, like, hear from him, to see from him, understand anything. And he's out here cutting budgets left and right, so. And spinning people out and whatever else.

[B]

Yeah. Concerning, you know, so let's. Let's go back to the mandate just for a second, because I did want to ask. You know, it's like at that time, there were. There were these rumors that, you know, said that employees had to sign a loyalty pledge to PROPS principles, and if not, Lee would be expelled from the foundation. And, like, do you think that's coming from Bastion or from Vitalik or. And what do you even think of the fact that maybe that was what they were trying to do, get people to do?

[C]

No, this is just a scapegoat. Like, truthfully, like, this actually pisses me off as, like, somebody who, like, runs companies. This is like an ineffective job at being able to fire people over the years because they don't hold people accountable. They don't team hold teams accountable. Yes, There are great PMs, there are great engineers, but, like, how many times have, like, it's just been like a 20 mil budget to just do shit and there's like, no enforceability at the EM level. Like, you know, I was yelling about this with Tamash. It's like, there should be, like, engineering managers, and they're held to, like, an actual standard that's like, it doesn't even have to be public, but like, yeah, budgets just run. You know, this is like their excuse to get rid of the people that just didn't fit the culture mold. And also at the same time, probably just do a bunch of culling at the same time.

[A]

Yeah, it makes me feel like they want their cake, they want to want their cake, and then they want to eat it too. You know, it's like, well, they want everything, but they're not willing to actually go the extra mile to ensure that all these things are actually implemented.

[B]

Now they're kind of backpedaling, like, meaning they. By trying to have people sign the loyalty pledge, that was like a sort of indirect way rather than just like having conversations with people kind of about, like, what, what the mission is and, like, making sure they're on board or something. Is that what you mean?

[A]

Oh, what I mean? Yeah, yeah, for sure.

[B]

Okay. Okay.

[A]

And then they're using that as an excuse to get rid of folks, like Greg was saying.

[B]

Yeah. Okay, well, let's now talk about the next event that happened last week, which. So basically we've kind of filled in all the backstory leading up to the departures. But as the community was having this conversation about the departures, David Hoffman of Bankless announced that he had sold his last eth, which was shocking because Bankless has famously been an Ethereum line podcast from day one. His co host, Ryan Sean Adams is still a believer in Ethereum, but he's not going to be visible or as visible on the show anymore. So I was curious what your reaction was to hearing that news.

[A]

I don't think it's news. I mean, David's been kind of doing his own thing for a few years now, as far as I'm concerned. Primarily, they're entrepreneurs, they're business people, and they're going to do whatever is best for their bottom dollar at Bankless. And that doesn't necessarily include what's good for Ethereum. Like, they have a venture studio, they have like, or they have a venture like a VC fund now, and they have, like, you know, fiduciary responsibilities. But I mean, David has been doing some, like, bearish for a couple years. It's not like anything new. I think that maybe him saying that he sold his ETH now is maybe kind of like a cry for attention because he's kind of pigeonholed himself as this, like, villain essentially, I think, in regard to the broader Ethereum ecosystem. And it's been about three years since that's, like, started. Three or four years, you know, But I don't, I don't. I don't think it's going to impact me. I'm not going to sell ETH because David did. That's stupid. Yeah, like, people, people buy and sell all the time. I don't tweet about it. Like, I think it's just a cry for attention.

[B]

Well, okay, but I mean, his whole identity was wrapped up in Ethereum, so it was.

[A]

But I don't, I don't. When I think of David, I don't think of an ETH maxi, and I haven't thought about him in that light for three or four years. Like, I don't. I think of him as a shark. That's out there to make money, and that's fine. Yeah, that's what. If that's who he wants to be and that's who he is, that's okay. There's nothing wrong with that. Yeah. At least he's not out there trying to say that he like shilling ethics while also covertly dumping his bags, you know?

[B]

Greg, what about you?

[C]

I don't really care that much. Yeah, I think it's like. I do think, though, I mean, I think it just shows a little bit of character, you know, when you have a personality that big. And as you said, you've built the brand on the back of ETH for as long as it was until as long as it has been you. You know, it gets clicks. That's how I like to look at it. Right.

[A]

Okay.

[B]

Well, let's move on because we have so many other topics, so if you don't have strong opinions, thing to know.

[A]

One thing to note, though, is that, like, the EF and Vitalik and all them say they don't want to be kingmakers. They're directly responsible for creating David Hoffman. They gave him a spotlight, they gave him a microphone. They brought him in. Like, before that, he was just like a podcaster that did whatever, had like a few hundred followers. And then Vitalik put him on to kind of become the de facto podcast of Ethereum, like, you know, what, five, six years ago, something like that. Whenever there was conflict starting in Russia, he kind of, like, gave him the spotlight there. So.

[B]

But I don't know what you mean by that. He, like, officially said that. That Bankless is the Ethereum.

[A]

No, he didn't officially say it. He didn't officially say it, but he put them on and he supported them and he, like, gave them the microphone. That's what he. That's what Vitalik did. That's what he did back in, like, five years ago or something like that. And before that, Bankless wasn't even really. It wasn't even really a thing he was working on pov, Crypto. That was like another podcast that I was on several times, and it was just a tiny podcast. So I'm just saying that, like, Vitalik giving people the mic and the spotlight is actually, like, they are king makers. So that's kind of contradictory to a lot of what. What they're trying to say now.

[B]

All right, well, so the day after David's announcement, Duncrad Feist, who previously, you know, did research at the foundation and then last fall left to go to Tempo, he tweeted a Proposal that at least like from a podcast that he and I did together last week on the Defiant. I'm not even sure if he was like incredibly serious about it or like, like was even seriously putting it forward. It, the way he spoke about it felt like he was just more just putting an idea out there. But he tweeted, quote, if we want to get Ethereum back to winning one, create an organization with credible funding. Minimum $1 billion is a start. Find a leader who is competent and wants to fight. Make it accountable with a board of people who want ETH to go up and a charter that holds the org accountable to it. Fund it permanently with a significant amount of staking revenue. So what I found interesting is that like in, so in my opinion, I think the EF can totally have crops principles as its guiding light, but also do all the things that Dinkrad mentioned in his post, like I don't think that they're mutually exclusive at all, but in my opinion, the way the EF is operating, it's like they wanna do the crops thing, but they don't wanna fight for it. They just wanna like get in their ivory tower and you know, sort of build it and they will come kind of concept. So anyway, I was curious like what you thought of his proposal.

[A]

I mean, I think the big problem is like funding where like, sure, give someone a billion dollars and they'll make ETH great again, like, cool. All right. I mean I, I think it also boils down to the EF not acknowledging price as like a significant driving factor behind the ecosystem and actually one of the foundational pill security within the network. When we switch to proof of stake, the value of ETH becomes the value of the network. It's, it, it's, it's equal to the security overall of the network. So I think that's like a big, big problem. I think it's less like, oh, give someone else a billion dollars and more like, hey, let's like boil this down to fundamentals, like what do we need to do? I think like, we need to really focus on Ethereum as the, you know, like the, the, the asset of the network that we need to drive value to. And I think that a lot of that has been cannibalized because there have been a lot of poorly made strategic decisions, like driving a lot of things to L2s and like making a lot of protocol decisions without considering the economics of the network and the protocol itself. And just like by disregarding all of that, I think it's just done a huge disservice to ETH and you know, the ETH holders which should be treated as fiduciaries essentially.

[C]

Yeah. Like the EF has historically outside of like a few core teams obviously like historically a good chunk of the folks that work there are like very strong academic researchers. Right. Like they don't. The, the concept of like applied research isn't something that's very like prevalent there. And when you look at and explain

[B]

what that means for non technical.

[C]

Yeah, yeah. So like you know, on the applied research it would be somebody that you know, has a little bit more, let's say product focus so they, they can go and say like okay, this is the ideal state but you know to get there we're gonna have to do make some trade offs and like this is the path we're gonna like realistically take. And they might also be on the engineering side. And kind of where I'm going with this is that like historically, historically and even, I mean even today, like most of that like the applied side and the actual engineering side is generally outsourced. Right. Like that's why there's consensus client teams and all the funding that happens to external parties, that's probably a lot of it. And including operationally like due to just like execution and leadership like internally. Right. Over the years. Like the team, they are not built to hold people accountable to build and to build especially on the product side. Like even the internal teams they run pretty autonomously. So the ones that are working well and work like Geth and a few of the other ones like they're just, they get funding right. They hear what research wants and half the time they're the ones shooting down the proposals right at the like core devs level. And so yeah, I mean like I think that's an also interesting to watch as we see a lot of these folks leave. But also some of the teams that get forcefully spun out with like fixed funding, you know, and potentially no renewals on it, it's in reaction as I see it, to like they're just not good at it. It's when a team's like similarly a startup's not good at building product but they're good at like doing X and they focus on that. Yeah. You know, it's like that's the inevitability. Right.

[B]

All right, so now let's talk about Vitalik's post on Sunday. Let's. We'll just talk about a part of it at first. So he, first of all, I just need to say he said that this was just his views. So obviously there's other people at foundation and like other board members, but as we said, everybody knows that what Vitalik says is it's probably going to go. So anyway, as I mentioned earlier, he said that Bastion was executing the EF's transition, which, you know, was interesting to me just because it feels very Vitalik to me. But maybe that's why Bastian is the coed. And then he talked about like how Google started as don't be evil, but then he said that all large companies now are bending to what he called greed for financial gain. Totalizing visions of accelerated superintelligence, infiltration by sociopaths and craven capitulation to or worse, active participation in government pressure for ideological control, surveillance and war. And then he said that like the fact that this was happening influenced his vision of the EF to not be a center of Ethereum, but as one node with a defined purpose alongside other nodes. And then basically he also talked about how the EF has limited financial resources with only about zero point, sorry 0.16% of all eth. And for that reason it will focus those resources on pursuing longevity over breath. So you know, to my, the way I read that was like, maybe some of these departures have to just frankly do with money because with the ETH price down by more than half from the fall, you know, that means that their budget has also trunk. But then the last bit is he talked about how Ethereum must be impressive and he defined that as provably bug free available chain consensus and intermediary minimization. So we'll talk about the second half of the post in a moment. But first of all, like, what did you make of all these parts?

[C]

I mean, you don't exit senior leadership because budget's tight like the folks running the ship. So like, you know, you exit like solidity, which people complain about on a frequent basis into their own org. And that's a budgetary concern. So I would not associate budget cuts to like you know, Tim and all those folks leaving. I think that's more like systematic.

[A]

And those are also people who have been around for like 10 years. Like, yeah, like they're, they're, they, they were the one, they were the folks that were around like when we were all getting started doing this stuff and they were in it, like we all believed the same thing and that's what motivated all of us to actually do anything. Because I wasn't getting paid shit for a really long time. Granted I still don't get paid shit. But like you know, like, it was, it was tough for a while. And if you were in it and if you got in around the same time I got in and the time Greg got in, like we built, we worked on eth2, we did a bunch of stuff. I wasn't getting paid. I was in it for the love of the game. Like, you know, it was something that I believed in, something that I could rally behind. And I think that's what made Ethereum so awesome at the beginning. And I think now we're trying to like backpedal to try to put this crop thing front and center, which I agree with. You know, it's. And it's, it doesn't have anything to do with the ethos necessarily. It just has to do with how they're running things. You can't run things the same way that they were run before. But I think that they've become such like a titan of influence that it's riskier to try to like take, to try to take it in a direction it needs to go because, you know, there's a lot of moving parts and now there's like a lot more at stake, you know, and they're probably just a little scared as well.

[B]

So. Okay, now in the second half of the post, this, to me, it's funny that to me, this like, made me raise my eyebrows. He said the most high value product of the Ethereum blockchain, financially speaking, is ETH the asset. And it's just funny that, you know, when the creator of Ethereum says that the most high value product of the blockchain is actually eth, like the fact that that's headlines, headline news to me because he generally kind of like disdains talking about price and, and all that. Like, anyway, then the other thing he said was there are aspects of supporting ETH asset, necessary aspects even, that are outside the scope of the ef. This is where we need other heroes, some of whom hold more ETH than the EF does, to step in and help. So I kind of read that as almost like an implicit endorsement of the Dinkrad idea. I don't know if you agree with that, but what was your reaction to the statement about ETH the asset?

[A]

I mean, I think it's about time. Like, yeah, hey, ETH has value and it presents a unique utility to the network. Like, duh, like, should have said that shit five years ago, bro. Come on, get real. Like, hey, actually now that I think about it, ETH is pretty important.

[B]

Like, it's like, literally what proof of stake is based on, like, if the value is low, then security is low.

[A]

You don't build an economic engine and then say, oh, you know what? Maybe economics are important. Like, it doesn't. Like, did you not think about that 10 years ago, 15 years ago? Like, you know, come on. I mean, I'm not going to, like, harp on the guy for saying what we've all been thinking. I'm just going to be like, this isn't news, people. Like, let's go. Like, you know, like, we need to focus on ETH as the monetary premium of the network. That is what creates value. That's it. That's what attracts new users. That's what creates security. Most importantly is like, the security of the network is entirely dependent on ETH having value. That's how it works. That's the innovation of blockchain, that's the innovation of crypto, you know, so just seems a little weird that he's coming out and saying that stuff now.

[C]

You know, Greg, it was like his Wolf of Wall street moment, you know, the like. But it was just, as sex said, a little bit late. Yeah, it's. It's in line with what's happening, though. I mean, like, they hired Defi leads. Great. You know, still very late. Defi summer was, you know, six years ago. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

[A]

I've got. I've gotten married and had kids, raised those kids. Like,

[C]

you know, that's where I got my first gray hair. But, like, it's nice that it's happening. It's just late. But it's also. Maybe he's turning a page. Maybe they're all turning a page. You know, it's. There are serious competitors out there.

[B]

I don't know. The way that I read that was like, he's paying lip service. That's how it read to me. But so this leads me to my next topic, which I tweeted about this. Like, to my mind, I feel like eth's crypto economics are kind of broken right now. I think, like, so many people think that Ethereum is super valuable, and I think that there's, like, a lot of people that want to fight for it and are. And like, all the, you know, ideals and principles that Vitalik talks about and crops and all those things, I actually think so many people are really into that. But the fact of the matter is that Vitalik and the ef, I just want to say Vitalik. But anyway, they. Yeah, they haven't kind of, like, used. So basically, Ether could be used as an amazing tool to push those Crops principles. It could be used to, you know, get many people kind of into this community and ecosystem that values those principles, which I think are actually really important. It's just that everyday people don't know that those principles are important. So if you kind of do the BD and you do use the crypto economics to get people interested in eth, then you can kind of like Trojan Horse those principles to them. But because everyday people don't give a shit about that. Like by him just being like, I'm gonna, you know, do these principles and, and like then sort of, you know, hope and pray that people get interested. Like, I feel like that's not gonna be as effective. So I was curious, like, do you agree that Ether's economic crypto economics are broken? And a second piece is, I do feel like the foundation is, plays a critical role in formulating those crypto economics and I feel like because they're not focused on it, that's like another problem. Would you agree that the foundation is kind of a crucial player in formulating that?

[A]

Yeah, a hundred percent, no question.

[C]

Yeah, yeah. I think if you try to change the curve that exists there, like I guarantee you're going to have the entire R and D team swoop in there and just be like, no, like wait,

[B]

I'm sorry, the curve, like the emissions curve?

[C]

Yeah, of course if you try and touch the economics, like there's no way they don't all just jump in on it. You know what I mean? It's like you could have like a perfect, you know, by definition perfect. There's nothing perfect. But like, I mean I, I swear, like on the HASU podcast, like the one from years and years and years ago, there was like discussions about changing the curve. But that was like three, four years ago. Like we still haven't changed the curve.

[A]

Well, now there's a EIP they're proposing that's going to reduce emissions, essentially cut

[C]

it in half, which is going to be really great.

[A]

Yeah, another contentious, another contentious eip. You ready?

[C]

Yeah. It's like the risk free return on this just isn't worth it at all.

[B]

Yeah, that's sort of what David Hoffman was saying. Because I also tweeted that Ethereum's not interested in putting points up on the scoreboard and he said that that was basically why he piece down they should be interested.

[A]

I mean the fact that there's a scoreboard with points on it implies that you're playing on a field that cares about those things. If you're on a team that doesn't care about winning, then go back to the playground. I feel like I'm on a sports podcast right now. But, like.

[B]

So this actually leads perfectly to my next question, which is all about kind of this coming era of. Or we're really already in this era of competition, actually. And this morning, Frank Chaparro tweets, tweeted, quote, Ethereum's dominance is slipping. ETH is down about 30% year to date. The ETH BTC ratio just hit its lowest level since mid-2025. And blockchain revenue is steadily shifting towards Solana, Tron and hyperliquid. The competitive landscape is changing fast. And his tweet had a chart that showed exactly that, actually. Juan Ma. Can you expand it out, like, if you click on the image? Yeah. So if you look, it might be hard to see, but basically the blue, where it's super dominant for a period, that is Ethereum. And then when you look at the recent. I think it's by quarters or something. Basically, it's actually quite evenly spread. And so I kind of get the feeling that the EF or Vitalik either is unaware that there's this massive competition going on and there's all these players that are vying for, you know, to. To get people on chain or they don't care or I don't know. What. What's your read on kind of like, whether or not they seem to recognize that the competition is only just getting started?

[A]

Yeah, I think they're totally oblivious. I mean, in previous cycles, we've always seen these, like, ETH killers come out. You remember, like, Eos and all that other. All that other crap, and it was always. It was always kind of like vaporware, but, you know, it was only a matter of time before somebody could come put together a car that looks cooler and is actually faster. You know, I think that there's no competitive edge left because, you know, we. We've had such a winning streak of, like, being the. And being cool and having the great tech and having all the good researchers and having the mind share that. It kind of made everybody kind of complicit and lazy. But I think, you know, they still don't really have their ear to the ground. Everybody, like, you know, it's still. It's still pretty, you know, I don't know. I think they're definitely out of touch. But that's not to say that it's too late. Like, also, I, I don't. I'm not buying the whole, like, ETH is make ETH win again and Blah, blah. I still think ETH is doing well. I think that we're doing better than any other network out there and the whole market is just down because you know, AI is kind of taking over and you know, there's like a lot of other shiny objects out there that's. That are going to attract like younger, more like younger talent, you know, than, than crypto. Crypto was like the hot for a minute, but now it's more like just a standard component in the tech stack now as opposed to like a new thing that's out and AI is out and it's new and it's attracting a lot of talent and a lot of young people. I think that's just inevitable. I'm no longer young. I was young when I started working on this. Look at me now, still working on it. Haven't gotten smarter I guess.

[B]

Greg, what about you? What do you think about the ef? And it's either attitude toward or awareness of the competition.

[C]

I mean I don't think they're like, I don't think you can be truly bad oblivious. But when it comes down to what's actually happening, I believe that like a good chunk are just not paying attention to other stuff. You know, like a chain safe. We like ran and build infrastructure and nodes for like most major blockchains and we would bring back ideas that looked great and it was always like ah, yeah, don't know anything about that chain. And that's like a common pattern. You know, whether they know the stats is one thing, but whether they care about what's happening from like, you know, in that ecosystem specifically is like its own battle. And truthfully most of the time it's not. Yeah, like it would have to be like gross negligence to not be fully aware of what's going on.

[A]

I'm sure that they're aware, but I think it's maybe like arrogance. That's.

[C]

Yeah, it's the care. Right. That's not what I was.

[A]

I don't need to compete. We don't need to compete. Like, you know what I mean? Like these E killers come and go every cycle.

[B]

So in your ideal world what would happen? Like either what would they do or then would there be this kind of like outside organization or. Zach, I don't know if you want to talk about what you're doing with the Ethereum Community foundation, but like ideally what would happen from this point forward?

[A]

Yeah, so the ECF has always just existed to act as like a forcing function to the ef. Like we, we've shipped A bunch of stuff over the past year on a shoestring budget with a very minimal team focusing on Ethereum providing like some degree of funding, building, you know, public goods infrastructure that needs to be put out there and products that focus on consumers. So I think on a lot, like on a longer timeline, if. I think what would be ideal is Vitalik and the EF just quit the bullshit. Like, the bottom line is that like, if you're in court and you know, there's concept of jurisprudence, like you can say that, like, you know, they, that they don't have control or whatever, one thing or another, but they're going to look at, like, they're not going to look at the statements, they're going to look at the outcomes. You're going to look at what's actually implied, like actually enforced in practice. Right. As opposed, as opposed to, like, oh, well, we don't do this thing, or this is decentralized and we don't have anything to do with that. But that's, that's all, that's all bullshit. So I think at the end of the day, just say, hey, look, we're controlling Ethereum, we control the network. I mean, if, if circle and tether, like, so if there is a contentious fork, which fork, which network is going to be like the, the primary fork, like the primary chain. It's going to be whatever the Ethereum foundation says because it's going to be whatever circle and tether, wherever they choose to redeem their assets. And they don't want to incur any liability by making any sort of choices themselves. So what they're going to do is they're going to defer to whatever the Ethereum foundation, which is what Vitalik says, at the end of the day, that's what they're going to do. That's it. That's all that there is to it. You can say whatever you want. You can put out a bunch of crazy mangas, you can say that you're not in charge. It doesn't matter, they're in charge. Admit that you're in charge. It's okay to be in charge. Actually, I want you to be in charge. Please be in charge. Take some responsibility. You gave birth to this child. Put the fucking kid through school. Like, you know, divert, like grow the fuck up. Diversify your board. Include people from across the industry that are smarter than you, that know how to run products, that know how to build companies, that have entrepreneurial experience that's not just sitting and writing white papers for 20 years and like dealing with all this academic masturbatory garbage. Like, don't do that. Like, think about someone other than yourself and your ego for once and give other people the reins like you. Like. It seemed everybody was super stoked when Tamash came in and that seemed like a step in the right direction. But then they drove them out and they like, went back to their infinite gardening. Like, just make that board larger, make it public, make it actually transparent. We built a transparency dashboard that like, tracks every single penny that we spend. If somebody buys a paperclip, it's on this, it's. It's on this transparency report. We need to run Ethereum like we would a company. That's it. That's all there is to it. Whether you like it or not, whether core, whether companies are evil or whatever, like, shut up. Just like grow up and like get a job. Like, you know, that's all there is to it. So I think that's what would happen in a perfect world is everybody's saying, all right, cool, we had our fun, we did our stuff. Like, having a properly functioning organization is not contradictory to any of the crops like, notions of crops at all. Because Greg and I have been running companies that bleed and die by these principles for 10 years, over 10 years, and at no point did any. Were any of those, like, principles put, like, threatened. Like, never, right? So you can run an organization that's like clean and coherent and makes sense and is professional and has like a. Has like a unified face that allows institutions to feel comfortable without completely selling out to banks. Like, none of us got into this to be like, institutional investors or accredited investors or like, whatever. Like none of us. That's not why we got into this. We got into it because we were dumb and young and had nothing better to do because there were like the crops principles, you know, like, that's what drove everybody and that's what we can still conform to. But let's grow up and actually run Ethereum like we would an organization that can scale. Because if we can't do that, then the crops principles are useless because it's going to show that none of these principles are actually applicable to real world business. And if they aren't applicable to real world business, then it doesn't. Then they have no real world value. So let's make them real. Let's like put our money where our mouth is and let's grow up and let's do it. Yeah. And whether that's the Ethereum foundation taking responsibility for that and saying, yeah, you're right, we need to do BD for the price. We need to do BD around, like, marketing and like, we need to make sure that people understand the messaging. Like, like, that's, that's it. Or whether it's another organization. They're going to have to actually see control and they're going to have to hand the mic to somebody else the same way that Vitalik did to David Hoffman. Doesn't matter who, as long as they have, like, their shit together and everybody understands what the, what's necessary of the roadmap that's actually going to scale.

[B]

Yeah, I, I agree that I think the Ethereum foundation is not using Ether and its price as a tool in its toolkit. And it could. I know you have to run at the top of the hour, and it is the top of the hour, but I just want to ask one last question, because you mentioned the board and Vitalik did say that the Ethereum foundation will be appointing new board members. Do you either have, like, suggestions on how that this should go or who should be on it or even like, the type of person that should be on it?

[A]

I don't think it should be like a dao. I don't think it should be a decision that's made by everybody that holds eth. Like, you know, I'm not saying anything extreme. Treat it like a real company. Bring in people that represent different sectors of Ethereum that can contribute their knowledge and their wisdom to understanding what's actually necessary. Have a board, like, someone that represents standard media that understands priority. Like, because, like, all they, and if they don't want to do that, then they just need to shut up because, like, everything they're doing is creating PR crisis that just makes us all look bad. So either, like, do it or shut up. That's all they, that's all you have to do. They could just shut up and play their little game and do their little thing forever in perpetuity, as long as they just step out of the way. So it's either lead, follow, or get out of the way. And they're not really choosing to do any of those things. Things, which is extremely frustrating. And I know that I'm going off on a tangent and I'm rambling and I seem unhinged, but I've been doing this for over 10 years. Like, I've seen cycle and cycle and cycle and many people churn over and like, you know, that's just what I think.

[B]

Yeah. So, Zach, if you have to run, you can. I do want Greg to answer those last two questions that I ask. I can repeat them for you, Greg, so.

[A]

And I'm a job. Thank you for having me.

[B]

Thanks, Zach. It was great chatting with you. Bye. So, Greg, the two. Well, I'll start with the first one, which was just about the Frank Chaparro chart and whether or not you think the EF has an awareness about the competition.

[C]

Oh, yeah, like I was saying, like, the. It would be fiduciary, irresponsible for nobody to be not checking this. I mean, like, everybody's on Twitter.

[B]

Everybody.

[C]

Everybody sees everything. Like, they. They. They know.

[A]

It's.

[C]

They're aware that the competition is. Is there. I think in many cases, being aware that there's competition and being aware of, like, what the technical edge and why people are making those decisions is probably not as prevalent until more recently. Like, you know, I was saying it before, like, talking to people in the community, and then there's talking to people in the community, and then there's talking to people in the community that, like, also have users. And historically, a lot of the time you'll find it's like, oh, yeah, we spoke to so these people, and it's like, no one's heard of them. Just like nobody's heard of Bastion. You know what I mean? That's changing. It truly is. But, like, I mean, I would be shocked if they haven't. I just don't think they care. I think a lot of people internally don't care. Right? We have our moat, we have our defi. We've got our liquidity. You know, like.

[B]

Like my worry, like, the fact that they don't care means that they will lose out on the competition. That's what I worry. Like, I. So I said this on, I think on that Defiant podcast, and I don't remember if I tweeted it or not, but, like, basically, I think that crops could win in the long term, but is it going to win in the short term? No, in my opinion, because basically the way that I expressed it was like, if I think of anybody that I know, like, from who I know from any context, that's not crypto. And I think about the percentage of those people that are into crypto, it's basically zero. And so, you know, all these other competitors, they are going to where those people are, and they're like, you know, meeting them where they're at right now, and Ethereum is not doing that. It's kind of like staying in this sort of cypherpunk, you know, kind of stance, and it's just like, oh, no, no, no, but, yeah, like, you know, whatever. 98% of people are not into this. And so all the other chains and platforms, they're going after the everyday person. And so if Ethereum loses in the short term, then will it win in the long term? Like, possibly. But if it loses in the short term, then it runs the risk of also not winning in the long term. And that's what I'm concerned about.

[C]

Yeah, you have to like, play to your, like, you have to play to like, increase your like total luck surface, you know, like that it's, you're not going to like, you know, there's getting winning takes like a bunch of factors and a ton of it is luck. It's like. And you need to increase that surface as much as you can. You know, crudely, like how Zach put it. It's like that document's just garbage. I would be happy with a cleaned up version and that would probably appeal to a lot more people more widely, you know, but you read that it's hard to get through and I think it's just like a lack of awareness that, like, pushes sometimes these decisions that, you know, would cause Ethereum to lose. I don't, I don't think it will, truthfully. We've just got so much going for it, but, you know, the price of it's a whole different problem. Right.

[B]

Yeah, I feel like if they fix the tokenomics and if they like deign to fight for Ethereum, not just like, you know, in this airy fairy way, put these principles out there, if they decide we're going to fight for these principles, then yeah, I think like Ethereum probably would win. But in the absence of those things, I'm a little bit like, okay, well, we'll see if the principles just magically attract people on their own. But okay, so that last question that I asked Zach about, you know, the fact that they are actually adding people to the EF board, like, how would you, you know, want to see that happen? You know, what process or like, what types of people or if you want to name specific people they'd like to see on the board, like, what are you thinking?

[C]

I mean, like, systematically, it has to, we need like grownups in the room, you know, I, I, I, you look at, I mean, again, I can't find Bastion's info, but like, you look at the rest of like the team there and like a lot of people don't have like big corporate management things. Not that that's what they need, but you need to have somebody that like, actually Understands, like, businesses at scale to come in and say, like, okay, there's like, some things we have to change. We can adhere to the rules of corpse as much as we can, but, like, you know, these basic principles of how we should run, you know, a 13. They have 13 bips of like, the total supply. Like, that's a crazy amount still. Even though it's like, not a lot, like, it's still a lot of funds. Like, they have to steward that. That's like priority number one. Priority number two is I would love to honestly for them to just, like, continue to cut more stuff out and lean on other organizations to do it like they already do. Right. Like, keep it lean, keep it focused on research. That's like what we need the most. We've got other teams that are extremely talented at different budget sizes, that are independent, that can really execute on a lot of this stuff, versus, like the traditional model, which is, you know, you have team leads, allocated budgets that are large, and they kind of just throw it around and that's getting called back now anyway. And finally, when it comes to the board, like, I don't. I really hope we don't have just like an internal family business style that we have. You know, let's just promote internally and just continue to promote internally. It's like, there's no observability at that point. There's no, like, keeping them accountable. Like, we should be seeing someone external come in. Somebody that has, like, put their, like, neck on the line for the last, like, X amount of years. I don't know who that is necessarily. And. And you have to be careful not to king make in this process, you know, but I would probably add like two or three beach heads from different, you know, areas. Maybe like one or two from DeFi or even board observer seats. I don't know if those exist in Swiss foundation orgs, but, you know, same concept. It's like I would take like. I would take on like, a cane and like a. Like a Stani, you know, like kind of polar opposites similar at the same time. Yeah. Like, people that have been around and basically, like, prop up the network, you know, like, truthfully, like, if Stani didn't, like, put together this, like, recovery fund, like, I think it actually would have been like, we would be in like, super Bear for the next, like, two years. Right. It's like those type of people would be good and then maybe honestly take on somebody completely, like, different adjacent. Right. But just has a good track record in, like, open source. Like, I'm Sure. There's somebody at, you know, SFP 500 that, like, has ran massive orgs and can suggest this is the way to go, but, like, you know, pick and choose your battles.

[B]

Yeah, yeah. In my book, there was this moment where they tried to recruit Brian Bellendor from Hyperledger, but for various political reasons at that time, that was not really a viable option. Having to do with the. The current or the. The then executive director of the ef. But who was that anyway?

[C]

Oh, no, I. Not Albert. Never mind.

[B]

No, it was Ming.

[C]

Yeah.

[B]

Yeah.

[C]

Oh, my goodness. Throwback.

[B]

Wow. Yeah. Anyway,

[C]

I forgot that that was a time. Yeah, See, that's my. That's my point. It's like, there's too much family business happening right now, and it's like, let's bring some people in from the rest of the world that have, like, been bleeding, you know, this whole initiative, this whole time.

[B]

Yeah. Yeah. I basically feel like more transparency from the EF and more communication, those two things alone would go a long way, I think, for the community. So, anyway, well, Greg, it was so great chatting with you and having Zach and. Yeah, I know this. This conversation will be ongoing. It's sort of, like, been ongoing for a couple of years now and hasn't really died. So, yeah, we'll have to see how all this plays out and really, like, the changes that they're making at the. Like, how. What those changes really look like, because clearly the reaction hasn't been positive. So I wonder if they'll take the feedback, but maybe they won't. We'll see.

[C]

We'll find out. I'm sure we'll. I'm sure we'll get a tweet soon enough. Awesome.

[B]

All right, everyone, thank you. Yeah, thanks for joining. And thanks, everyone, for joining this live stream. We'll catch you tomorrow. Nothing you hear on Unchained is investment advice. This show is for informational and entertainment purposes only, and my guest and I may hold assets discussed on the show. For more disclosures, visit Unchained Crypto.com.