Unchained Ep. 820: Jesse Pollak on ‘Base Is for Everyone’ + Guy Young and Carlos Domingo on Converge

Date: April 18, 2025
Host: Laura Shin
Guests: Jesse Pollak (Base & Coinbase Wallet), Guy Young (Athena Labs), Carlos Domingo (Securitize)

Episode Overview

This episode of Unchained features a two-part deep dive into the latest controversies and innovations at the intersection of crypto, DeFi, and RWAs (Real World Assets). First, Laura Shin grills Jesse Pollak, head of Base and Coinbase Wallet, about the drama surrounding the recent "Base Is For Everyone" coin, memes vs. content coins, and Base's evolving creator economy. The second half is a joint interview with Guy Young (Athena Labs) and Carlos Domingo (Securitize), who discuss the launch of "Converge", a new platform aiming to finally bridge the gap between permissionless DeFi and permissioned institutional finance.

The episode navigates hot-button issues—creator monetization, insider trading concerns, and the friction between crypto grassroots culture and centralization—before delving into how Converge aims to make institutional adoption of DeFi a reality.

Part 1: Jesse Pollak on ‘Base Is for Everyone’ & The Creator Economy

[00:48-27:48]

Key Discussion Points

The 'Base Is For Everyone' Coin Controversy

• Incident: Base’s official X account tweeted “base is for everyone,” replied “coined it,” and posted a link to a coin on Zora. The token’s price rocketed to a $17M market cap before crashing under $2M, leading to accusations of a rug pull.

  • Jesse's Explanation: “One of the biggest priorities for BASE right now is figuring out how we can give creators better tools for being creative online.” ([03:34])
  • The action was intentional and part of an ongoing experiment with coining content, not a run-of-the-mill token launch or rug.

• Automatic Tokenization: Zora now mints a coin for every post, not just NFTs. “We’re going to keep creating coins for all of our content.” ([06:41])

• Coinbase’s Stance on Listing: No plans for this coin’s listing, but the North Star is to “list everything,” integrate DEXs, and give users broad access. ([07:08])

Insider Trading Concerns

• Addressing On-Chain Buying: Three wallets acquired the coin pre-announcement and sold post-pump, raising “insider” suspicions.
  • Jesse: “Absolutely not Coinbase employees or anyone affiliated with Coinbase or affiliated with Base. Coinbase has very strict trading policies that we enforce… there is absolutely nothing connected to Coinbase.” ([08:34])
  • On-chain-first posting gives early users (and bots) a time advantage. The activity, he maintains, was in the spirit of an open, on-chain market, not manipulation.

Content Coins vs. Meme Coins & the Vision for Onchain Creativity

• Content Coins: A new creator monetization approach: every piece of content gets a coin, letting its market value be directly set by fans and collectors.

  • “Coins—the simplest form of tokenizing something On Chain—is actually a really, really powerful tool for capturing the value of content and creativity.” ([03:34])
  • The stigma around coins is misplaced: “Coin your content. If you coin your content, you’ll make more money, you’ll have more direct connection with your fans.” ([12:29])

• Difference from Meme Coins:

  • “This is really a cultural and an expectations difference... if you think it’s cool, collect it because you can spend 10 cents and support me as a creator.” ([13:25])
  • Meme coins come with “roadmaps and a group,” while content coins are about the content itself, not hype cycles or speculation. ([18:49])

• Longer-Term Vision:

  • “I believe that mapping [coins] onto a content context is going to be a huge, huge unlock because it’s going to let all of that content be valued… and redirect that value to creators.” ([13:25])
  • “If you look at the history of crypto—Creative Commons has been at the core… if we let things be free, they'll proliferate more, and as a result the value will accrue back in some way.” ([13:25])

Dealing With Crypto Culture's Toxicity and Centralized Leadership

• On becoming a “punching bag” and why he’s willing to take heat:
  • “A lot of this is downstream of what I would classify as a level of cultural toxicity that exists on crypto Twitter, which is that you have to conform... my job as a leader is to make it so there is psychological safety for people on Base to do new things and to experiment.” ([25:26])
  • Jesse’s position: It's worthwhile to be criticized if it unlocks experimentation and creator innovation in the broader community.

Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• On the Open Market: “The market is a free market where people are valuing this content... If you coin your content, you’ll make more money, you’ll have more direct connection with your fan… and you’re safe. It’s a safe thing to do.” ([10:29])
• Cultural Pushback: “Do we really think that if we follow the rules that the Pump Fun user base has set, we’re going to bring a billion people on Chain? I’m sorry, like, I don’t buy it.” ([23:40])
• Creator Economy Vision: “We have to work through [the stigma] to get to the other side. And as we do that work, we’re going to find better and better models for how to monetize with creators.” ([20:16])

Part 2: Guy Young & Carlos Domingo on Converge—the DeFi–TradFi Bridge

[29:38-67:26]

Key Discussion Points

Why “Converge”: The Need for a Next-Gen Institutional Chain

• The Problem Statement:

  • Current blockchains mostly serve two things: “settlement for casino type activity” (speculation, meme coins, etc.) and “settlement for stablecoins, digital dollars, and tokenization.”
  • The second bucket—real world financial activity—should be orders of magnitude larger in the future. ([29:38], [36:07])

• Converge’s Ambition: Bring the scale and regulatory compliance institutions expect, while preserving permissionless DeFi innovation.

  • “It is a crypto network that is completely public and open and permissionless.” ([34:12])
  • But will also enable "permissioned" DeFi protocols to unlock institutional capital.

Tech Stack: Arbitrum-based L2, Celestia Data Layer

• L1 vs. L2: Chose L2 (settling on Ethereum) for cost and performance, with the aim to offer an L1 feel (its own sequencer, security) but Ethereum-level finality. ([31:34],[32:24])

• Developer & User Experience:

  • EVM compatibility is key (“existing critical mass”), and Arbitrum offers out-of-the-box readiness plus performance and customizability ([45:23]).

• Finality & Security:

  • Institutions care whether a transaction is finalized at the L2 or upon settlement to L1. Converge introduces additional security/validation, especially at the bridge (asset withdrawal) layer. ([47:45])

• Validator Network:

  • “Somewhere between 10 to 20” institutional validators at launch, focusing on security during bridge events. This isn’t about building a huge proof-of-stake set, but about targeted risk reduction and institutional comfort ([58:17]).

The Permissioned–Permissionless Spectrum

• Institutions Need Guardrails:

  • DEFI protocols are “permissionless and anonymous,” but institutions require restrictions to avoid, say, borrowing from sanctioned actors ([35:17]).
  • The vision: The same dapp has a toggle/button—normal or institutional mode. Permissioned pools use KYC’d, whitelisted wallets, while permissionless (retail) pools remain open ([42:25],[44:22]).
  • Whitelisting is abstracted so users only see assets they’re eligible for ([56:24]).

• RWAs & Tokenization:

  • Securitize has years of experience tokenizing assets for institutions (“The asset itself becomes a better asset because you can actually do things with it that you couldn’t do before” [41:31]).
  • Institutions want not just yields (e.g., from Athena’s synthetic dollars), but also new capabilities—like instant on-chain leverage that’s impossible in TradFi ([39:24]).

• User Experience Friction:

  • Concerns about UX, KYC, and asset transferability are handled through filtering and design (“It will not create friction… you only see the products you’re allowed to purchase because we know the characteristics of the investors” [56:24]).

Privacy, Interventions, Bridging, and App Chains

• Privacy: On the roadmap, but not in MVP launch. Important for institutions who want to keep activity opaque to competitors ([63:17]).

• Intervention/Escrow Powers:

  • Assets that represent securities (RWAs) can be frozen or even burned in edge cases; the validator network can step in to halt bridge withdrawals in the event of major hacks ([59:28]).
  • Centralized vs. decentralized is a spectrum—Converge sits between, designed for practical security and compliance.

• Ethereal DEX:

  • Will operate as an app chain sitting atop its own blockspace but post proofs to Converge—a model designed for maximum exchange reliability and performance ([61:32]).

• Migration Strategy:

  • Both Securitize and Athena aren’t abandoning Ethereum or other chains; Converge is an additional distribution/channel, not a full migration ([66:12]).

Notable Quotes & Highlights

• Guy Young: “If you really believe the thesis of crypto… you have to think that that second bucket… is going to be an order of magnitude bigger than this speculative casino use case.” ([29:38])
• Carlos Domingo: “If you go try with your JP Morgan account… ‘Can I buy $100,000 of a credit fund and borrow dollars against it, and can I loop it?’ Forget about it. This is not going to happen. But onchain, it’s possible.” ([41:31])
• On Permissioned DeFi: “There will be apps that are permissionless and anonymous… and then versions… that introduce some degree of permissioning to be able to interact with permissioned assets.” ([34:12])
• On Friction: “It will not create friction in the sense that it’s not that you’re going to see an asset you can’t buy. We will not let you see it anyway. This is exactly what happens on our portal today.” ([56:24])

Important Timestamps

• 00:48-27:48: Jesse Pollak on Base, content coins, and the “is this a rug?” controversy.

• 29:38-67:26: Guy Young & Carlos Domingo (Athena, Securitize) on Converge, L2s for institutions, and the future of DeFi/RWAs.

  • 03:34: Jesse on the motive for coin-experimentation and creator empowerment
  • 08:34: Jesse addresses insider trading suspicions
  • 10:29: Jesse on market cycles, stigma, and creator monetization
  • 13:25/18:49: Meme coins vs. content coins, the “free but valuable” theory
  • 25:26: Jesse on taking heat so creators can feel safe experimenting
  • 29:38/36:07: Guy Young’s “casino” vs. “real world” blockchain thesis
  • 41:31: Carlos on looping credit funds and unlocking TradFi behaviors on-chain
  • 58:17: Validator council powers and institutional risk mitigation
  • 63:17: Privacy for institutional investors (future feature)
  • 66:12: Distribution strategy—Converge complements, not replaces, Ethereum activity

Episode Tone & Takeaways

• Candid and bold: Jesse Pollak is unapologetic about pushing boundaries, even in the face of community outrage.
• Bridging ideals and pragmatism: Both Base and Converge are experiments in navigating between the values of open, permissionless blockchain culture and the real needs of creators or institutions.
• Future-facing: The throughline is a readiness to disrupt, iterate, and normalize what seems radical today—whether that’s coining content, running permissioned-on-permissionless DeFi, or asking “what if everything (eventually) is onchain?”

For listeners, this episode offers both a ringside seat to a live cultural debate inside crypto and a forward-looking map of DeFi’s institutional future.