Unchained Ep. 910: Plasma’s Launch, Revenue vs TVL, and the Financialization of Streaming

Podcast: Unchained
Host: Laura Shin
Date: September 26, 2025

Episode Overview

This episode of Unchained is a three-part exploration of crypto’s latest frontiers. First, Laura Shin interviews Coin Fund’s Seth Gins about the launch of Plasma, the first stablecoin-focused blockchain. Second, Solana Foundation’s president Lily Liu lays out why revenue—not Total Value Locked (TVL)—is the true metric for crypto protocols. Finally, Figment Capital’s James Pirillo shares a bold vision of how platforms like Pump.fun signal the future of content, audience participation, and financialized streaming.

The episode is rich with first-hand industry insights, real-world examples, and thought-provoking discussion about how crypto is evolving.

PART 1: Plasma’s Successful Launch – with Seth Gins (Coin Fund)

What is Plasma and Why is It Important? (01:44 – 04:50)

• Plasma is the first major stablecoin-focused Layer 1 blockchain to launch its mainnet, with the $XPL token debuting at a ~$2 billion market cap.
• Open ICO Model: Plasma’s token sale allowed anyone to participate at a $500 million fully diluted valuation. “It’s a great example of ICOs in this new regulatory regime allowing broad participation in the gains that for a while had just been left for venture capital,” said Seth Gins (02:05).
• The surge in stablecoin chain activity follows the summer passage of the Genius Act in the US, creating clear rules for stablecoins.
• Key Innovation: Plasma adopts an ultra-low transaction fee structure (not quite zero, to deter spam) and monetizes at the application (app) layer, upending the “revenue via network fees” model.
• Partners and Ecosystem: Launch partners include major exchanges (Binance, Earn), protocols (AAVE), and over 100 DeFi integrations (AAVE, Athena, Fluid, Euler, Pendle, Curve, etc.).

Tether Relationship & Dollarization Use Case (05:19 – 07:23)

• Plasma is closely aligned with Tether (“the team is very close to the Tether team”), but it is “not the Tether stablecoin chain” (05:19).
• Zero-Fee USDT Transfers: Plasma offers fee-free transfers for Tether’s USDT, leveraging Tether’s vast (over $175 billion) user base.
• The alignment enables “wine distribution” for liquidity and helps juice the ecosystem.

What Sets Plasma Apart from Other Chains? (07:23 – 08:53)

• Plasma’s mainnet is live first, beating competitors like Tempo (Stripe), Circle, Ark, Stable, Codex.
• Well-capitalized and well-executed: Backing from Tether, a strong founding team, and rapid partnerships drive competitive advantage.
• “Being out there probably two, three, four months ahead of the mainnet launches from the other stablecoin focused chains, I think it's going to be a huge competitive advantage,” said Gins (01:23, 08:53).

Plasma1: The Stablecoin Native Neobank (08:53 – 10:46)

• Features: Spend stables via card, global high-yield savings (10%+ potential marketed), accessible worldwide—especially appealing to users facing high inflation (Argentina, etc.).
• Innovation: “Dollarized savings account and a way to spend... on low-cost rails... that’s very much the promise of Plasma1,” said Gins (09:12).

DeFi Integrations and Bootstrapping Strategy (10:46 – 15:24)

• Plasma boasts 100+ DeFi integrations at launch, making it a serious platform for established borrowing, lending, and yield protocols.
• Their ICO design involved depositing stablecoins (Tether, USDC) into a vault, creating a "warm start" ecosystem with $1+ billion deposited before launch.
  • “They started out by saying, we're going to accept $500 million... they got that submitted in two minutes. And a few days later... another $500 million... sold out in 20 minutes.” (13:36)

$XPL Token Utility and Geopolitical Implications (15:24 – 19:58)

• Tokenomics: Still evolving, but expectation is XPL holders receive a share of revenue generated via app ecosystem.
• For Emerging Markets: Plasma and dollarized stablecoins help individuals bypass national capital controls and protect savings from hyperinflation.
  • “[Plasma] drives a very strong push for dollarization globally, certainly of savings.” (16:59)
  • “As you have more uses for stablecoins in the US and more interest abroad... we blow through that $2 trillion [Treasury] target very quickly.” (18:43)
  • Treasury expects $2 trillion stablecoins by 2028; Gins thinks that will arrive even sooner.

USAT, Regulatory Differences & The ‘Stablecoin Race’ (19:58 – 27:57)

• USAT: Tether’s new US-regulated stablecoin (fully Genius Act compliant), designed for onshore corporate partners.
• Plasma’s future: Gins expects USAT to transact on Plasma, likely “much more of a 2026 dynamic.”
• Network Effects & Competition: Tether remains dominant ex-US, but faces robust US competition (USAT, Circle’s USDC, Stripe’s Tempo).
  • “Money has one of the strongest network effects out there... Tether's distribution... probably continues and they're probably the dominant stablecoin outside the U.S.” (24:39)
  • “With Plasma launching early... that should be a little bit of a head start for use cases onshore as well.” (27:42)

Notable Quotes

• “It's a great example of ICOs in this new regulatory regime allowing broad participation in the gains that for a while had just been left for venture.” – Seth Gins, (02:05)
• “You need a way to move stablecoins around in a very low cost fashion in order to make them a viable alternative for existing payment rails.” – Seth Gins, (02:33)
• “Plasma is live. That's the biggest differentiator... being out there probably two, three, four months ahead... is going to be a huge competitive advantage.” – Seth Gins, (07:23, 08:53)
• “As you have more uses for stablecoins... I think the network effects of money and the strength of the dollar end up being one of the strongest network effects you can find.” – Seth Gins, (18:43)

PART 2: Revenue vs TVL – with Lily Liu (President, Solana Foundation)

Why Revenue (Not TVL) is the Crypto North Star (28:44 – 32:03)

• Liu argues for revenue as the “North Star metric” for protocols, not TVL.
  • “TVL is not a metric that tells you how much value that liquidity is actually bringing to the broader ecosystem. We've got to start to complete the picture here.” (28:44, 43:40)
• Bitcoin as “digital gold” is unique, but everything else (blockchains as financial infrastructure) should be valued on utility and revenue.
• TVL is akin to early web metrics like downloads or MAUs—useful as an “upstream” indicator but not a measure of real value capture.

Breaking Down Protocol Value Capture (32:03 – 37:21)

• How value reaches token holders: L1 revenue arises from three streams:
  • Inflation
  • Base (fixed) fee
  • Variable (priority) fee
• Liu highlights that only recently have protocols begun to demonstrate meaningful real revenue. Many well-known chains can’t capture or pass this value to token holders.
• If L2s or execution environments siphon off the most profitable transactions, they also diminish mainchain value accrual.

TVL is Gameable; Revenue Is Harder to Fake (37:21 – 41:33)

• TVL can be gamed easily (e.g., depositing but not using assets), and doesn’t correlate with utility.
  • “You can have $2 billion of TVL, yes, but your protocol revenue is $2,000.” (37:21)
• Gaming revenue is possible, but much harder and costlier—users have to pay real fees to game revenue numbers.

TVL’s Real Role and the Maturation of Crypto (41:33 – 47:54)

• TVL still matters as a sign of market trust and market depth, but it’s a seed/Series A stage metric.
• As crypto moves into “Series B” maturity, focus must shift to downstream value—i.e., real revenue (43:40).
• Liu makes the analogy to Amazon: “They had plenty of revenue. And also with so many of these very high growth companies... we proved out [venture's value].” (44:07)
• The future requires developing nuanced metrics for different ecosystem layers (network/protocols, applications, assets).

Notable Quotes

• “If you actually think about how TVL flows through... it's an easily gamed metric. But then if you think about how does TVL actually lead to value and price creation... explain that mechanism.” – Lily Liu (32:06)
• “You can have $2 billion of TVL. Yes, but your protocol revenue is $2,000.” – Lily Liu (37:21)
• “Those are seed-stage metrics. Once you get to Series B and Series C, you’ve got to demonstrate something downstream.” – Lily Liu (42:03)

PART 3: The Future of Pump.fun and Financialized Streaming – with James Pirillo (Figment Capital)

Pump.fun and the Next Wave of Audience Participation (49:57 – 54:35)

• Pirillo’s thesis: platforms like Pump.fun blur the line between consumption and participation, allowing viewers to not just watch, but potentially profit or gain access via tokens.
• “Viewer financial participation”: Unlike passive tipping (Twitch) or simple voting on reality shows, crypto-native platforms let viewers buy in, speculate, and shape creators’ trajectories.
  • “There can be a much closer link between the host, the entertainment and the viewers… Not only one where they pay for something, but where they actually potentially participate.” (51:17)
• The rise of creator coins means fans profit or earn access as creators rise to social media prominence, enabling investment in personalities “on their way up.”

From Traditional Streaming to Financialized Content (54:35 – 62:02)

• Pirillo charts the history of digital self-promotion, from LinkedIn-era professional branding to “influencer” monetization, now morphing into “attention-fi.”
• On current platforms:
  • Twitch (takes 50%): Only star creators profit; <100 viewers/hooks generally earn nothing.
  • Kick (takes 5–30%): Greater creator share, but still ad/subscription-driven and hit-based.
  • Pump.fun: “We're profitable. We're very profitable, and we're sharing $21 million over the last month with streamers. They're making more money than they've ever made before.” (paraphrasing Noah, the founder, from Pirillo’s summary, 62:05)

Use Case: Creator Coins, Trump Token, and Speculation (65:09 – 71:12)

• Pirillo cites the Trump meme coin as a case study for creator token dynamics. The coin offered utility (access to President Trump), but price-wise “it’s been down only since the inauguration.”
• For creators, meme coins can also be access keys—reminiscent of Kickstarter tiers or VIP concert tickets.
• Pirillo foresees “creator coin tokenomics” becoming a discipline (tiered access, incentives, etc.).

Meme Coins, Perps, and Gambling in Crypto (72:45 – 75:42)

• Pirillo draws a parallel between meme coins and derivatives trading (“perps”): “For perps trading, it has this essence... like poker. Meme coins... look like slot machines... but they’re both gambling.” (49:57, 72:45)
• Many lose money on meme coins, but both meme coins and perps are leading sources of product market fit and application growth in crypto.
• Collapse is part of the lore: “Collapse is not disqualifying. It’s a narrative climax. A rug no longer marks the end of someone’s career. It's a ritual that cements an anti-hero’s lore.” (71:12)

Notable Quotes & Moments

• “There can be a much closer link between the host, the entertainment and the viewers… Not only one where they pay for something, but where they actually potentially participate.” – James Pirillo (51:17)
• “Collapse is not disqualifying. It's a narrative climax. A rug no longer marks the end of someone's career. It's a ritual that cements an anti-hero’s lore.” – James Pirillo (71:12)
• “It's all gambling... For perps trading... it has this essence of poker. Meme coins... they’re like slot machines.” – James Pirillo (49:57, 72:45)

Key Takeaways and Emerging Themes

• Stablecoin blockchains are racing for global share, with Plasma leveraging Tether’s network and a novel low-fee/application-monetization model.
• Revenue (not TVL) is the true indicator of value in crypto protocols, as utility and real-world use begin to materialize.
• Platforms like Pump.fun signal a future where content, culture, and speculation are inseparable—blurring lines between creator and audience, consumption and investment.
• Crypto is maturing: From early-stage metrics and speculative booms to the search for sustainable, scalable business models rooted in real usage and participation.
• Regulatory clarity (Genius Act, USAT) unlocks broader ventures and raises the stakes of the “great stablecoin race”.

Segment Timestamps

• Plasma and Stablecoin Chains: 01:44 – 27:57
• Revenue vs. TVL (Lily Liu): 28:44 – 47:54
• Pump.fun and the Financialization of Streaming (James Pirillo): 49:57 – 75:42

This episode paints a vivid portrait of crypto’s next phase: programmable money as financial rails, the maturation of DeFi, and the radical reworking of online participation, all built atop the backbone of accountable, revenue-driven protocols.