Detailed Summary: Unchained Podcast — The Chopping Block: Perp Wars & Stablecoin Battles: Hyperliquid, Aster, Tether (Ep. 911)

Date: September 26, 2025
Host: Laura Shin (absent for this episode), with regular Chopping Block panel
Special Guest: Farooq (Founder, Rain)
Panelists: Haseeb (Dragonfly), Tom, Robert

Overview

This episode is a lively, insider discussion on the rapidly evolving landscape of decentralized perpetual exchanges (“perp DEXs”) and stablecoins. The conversation focuses on the meteoric rise of Aster, the ongoing battles among top decentralized trading platforms, and the extraordinary private valuation being pegged for Tether amid the global expansion of stablecoins. Farooq, founder of Rain, provides a hands-on perspective on real-world stablecoin payments.

Key Discussion Segments

I. The Perp DEX Wars: Aster vs. Hyperliquid and the New Order

Timestamps: [00:00]–[13:45]

a) The Meteoric Rise of Aster

• Haseeb introduces the "Perp DEX wars," highlighting Aster’s explosive growth, moving past Hyperliquid to claim the highest daily volume among decentralized perpetual exchanges after a promotional tweet from CZ (Changpeng Zhao).
  • “Aster very quickly rocketed to becoming the number one perp DEX by volume as of today… recently they did $30 billion in volume, whereas Hyperliquid did $10 billion.” — Haseeb [02:13]
• However, Aster’s open interest remains much lower than Hyperliquid's, suggesting much of the volume may be wash trading and points farming rather than organic trading.
• The rise appears driven mainly by points and token incentive farming, reminiscent of earlier unsustainable exchange booms.

b) Are These Wars Ever Settled?

• Tom contextualizes, noting the perpetual cycle of "perp wars" going back to BitMEX and DYDX:
  • “We’ve been having perp DEX wars for like six years. Things that had massive market share… have in the past quickly been dethroned.” — Tom [04:41]
• Points, airdrops, and incentive programs have always fueled cycles of new winners.
• Tom: “I might posit that the perp wars will never end and that this is a battle that’s going to be going on in perpetuity.” [05:36]
• Panel generally agrees: dramatic shifts and challengers emerging are the norm, not the exception.

c) The Role of Incentives and Product Quality

• Robert argues Aster’s current success is classic points-farming, not genuine product innovation:
  • “It’s basically just points farming and it’s very clearly incentivized volume.” — Robert [07:38]
• Aster's incentive structure (2x points to takers vs. makers) is, in Robert’s view, “backwards” for sustainable liquidity.
• Haseeb notes incentives built around raw volume are a historical trap — referencing FCoin’s “transaction fee mining” as a cautionary tale [09:35].
• Yet, Haseeb warns against dismissing Aster: Asian teams excel at rapid iteration and execution.
  • “The West tends to be better at innovation and the East tends to be better at execution. The Perp DEX market is finally in a place where it’s less about innovation and more about execution.” — Haseeb [11:12]

d) The CZ/James Wynn Conspiracy and Market Intrigue

• Robert entertains a recent conspiracy theory that James Wynn (a notorious hidden-order trader) is actually CZ, due to Aster's non-transparent “hidden orders” [13:05].
• Tom finds this fanciful, but all agree intrigue and conspiracy are “one of the fun things about the industry.” — Farooq [14:12]

II. Regulatory Capture and Industry Infighting

Timestamps: [14:24]–[24:00]

a) L2 Regulation Spat and Regulatory Capture

• Haseeb discusses a Twitter firestorm between Ethereum and Solana communities, sparked by Max Resnick’s assertion that centralized sequencers (i.e., Layer 2s) ought to be regulated as exchanges.
• Infighting emerges as different blockchain factions advocate for their competitors to be more heavily regulated.

b) Panel Takes

• Farooq likens current tensions to classic industrial lockout tactics (“pulling up the drawbridge” once you’ve found success) and calls this a sign the industry is maturing [16:48].
• “People that do this are small-minded ... it’s driven by an anxiety that you can’t compete in an open market,” Farooq [18:44].
• Tom strongly opposes regulatory capture as “extremely bad for markets, for industry — for everything,” and critiques Max’s legal understanding [19:35].
• Robert: There’s actually some precedent; Hester Peirce has discussed Layer 2s potentially facing exchange registration if structured a certain way [21:00].
• The panel agrees: legal gray areas remain, but hostile regulatory tactics are hazardous long-term.

c) Finish with Dan Robinson’s Notable Quote:

• “It’s bad form and bad strategy to try to summon the regulatory demon to strike down your competitors over technical or ideological agreements. Where will you hide when the demon turns around on you?” — Haseeb, quoting Dan Robinson [22:58]

III. Stablecoin Battles: The Tether $500B Valuation Debate

Timestamps: [24:00]–[42:55]

a) The Shock: Tether’s $500B Private Placement

• Haseeb outlines the Bloomberg story: Tether rumored to be seeking a $500B valuation for private equity placement (selling just 3% equity!).
  • “USDT has about $172 billion circulating currently. They claim their Q2 profit was $5 billion and the company has 99% gross margins.” — Haseeb [26:30]

b) Does Tether Deserve $500B?

• Farooq takes the “market will bear it” approach, highlighting Tether’s worldwide dollarization, deep penetration, and unique moat—especially in markets where dollars circulate informally [27:29].
• But Tom compares to Circle, calling the price “a terrible deal ... it’s trading for more than 6x the premium of Circle, its closest competitor. … Is that a 6x valuation difference?” [31:01]
• Robert radically disagrees: “Circle is a terrible business ... For Tether, they’ve obviously been able to escape without really doing many of those deals ... and therefore they’re just going to continue to improve their margin.” [33:01]
• Haseeb and Robert: Stablecoin market isn’t “winner take all”; they now see separated sub-markets—DeFi (USDC), emerging markets/trading (USDT), etc.

c) Why Tether Won’t IPO

• Haseeb: Tether’s owners are risk-averse and unlikely to seek the scrutiny of an IPO:
  • “It’s an amazing cash flow business ... Why would we want to go public? What exactly are we going to be getting from going public when we can just pay ourselves?” [39:06]
• Notable analogy: Tether’s business model likened to Berkshire Hathaway—massive unencumbered float, but with even less downside risk [40:17].
• Some panel speculation that the $500B valuation, when “leaked,” is a negotiation tactic (“you ask for 500, you settle for 300 and everyone thinks they got a deal” — Tom [41:30]).

d) The Tokenization Future

• Robert suggests Tether could simply tokenize equity, skipping conventional funding: “The most obvious path for liquidity for Tether ... is to issue a tokenized version of their equity via Superstate.” [42:19]

IV. Stablecoins in the Real World: Farooq/Rain’s Perspective

Timestamps: [42:55]–[62:29]

a) What is Rain?

• Haseeb introduces Farooq and Rain: “a B2B2C stablecoin payments business” — building the infrastructure for anyone, anywhere, to earn, send, spend, or hold value as stablecoins [43:41].
• Rain bridges old and new money: “For us the future of money needs to come out the other end and then you’re living in the future while it’s there … and in the back end, it’s all stablecoins.” — Farooq [44:45]
• Rain's customers span fintechs, payroll companies, banks, payment processors, with credit and card programs all settled on-chain.

b) Real-World Use Cases & Growth

• Rain powers everything from US payroll dispersals, on-demand earned wage access, to white-labelled charge cards for the wealthy whose backend lines are blockchain-based — but the user never has to know they’re spending “crypto.” [48:29]
• Example: Real-time payroll enables workers to get paid in stablecoins after a night shift and instantly spend it with a Rain card [48:29].
• Cross-border business payments: South American merchants use Rain’s cards to pay for imports more efficiently than SWIFT [53:06].
• Farooq: “We have not a single user cohort that is not growing month over month ... Every single customer cohort is running. It’s complete insanity.” [59:41]

c) The Connective Tissue Between TradFi and DeFi

• Haseeb notes the model’s strength: “It wasn’t clear to me how stablecoins would get to critical mass ... but the stablecoin credit/charge card concept squared the circle for me about how this is going to bridge into modern financial infrastructure.” [54:01]
• Farooq: Rain enables fintechs trapped by US-centric regulatory regimes or legacy tech to pivot internationally: “You can provide this product, and maybe it’ll first resonate with fans in the Midwest, but also subcultures in Bangladesh. ... Stablecoins create a totally different dynamic for startups.” [59:41]

Notable Quotes / Memorable Moments

• “I might posit that the perp wars will never end and that this is a battle that’s going to be going on in perpetuity.” — Tom [05:36]
• “It’s just points farming ... and it’s very clearly incentivized volume. This is one of those things that’s short lived.” — Robert [07:38]
• “The West tends to be better at innovation and the East tends to be better at execution. Right now perp DEXs are about execution.” — Haseeb [11:12]
• “People that do this [regulatory capture] are small-minded ... it’s driven by anxiety that you can’t compete in an open market.” — Farooq [18:44]
• “It’s bad form and bad strategy to try to summon the regulatory demon to strike down your competitors ... Where will you hide when the demon turns on you?” — Haseeb quoting Dan Robinson [22:58]
• “It’s like a Berkshire Hathaway — you can kind of build that type of business with this float. ... They can make bets, do R&D investments ... it becomes a private credit or private investment business.” — Farooq [40:17]
• [On Rain’s growth:] “We have not a single user cohort that is not growing month over month, week over week. Every single customer cohort is running. It’s complete insanity.” — Farooq [59:41]

Key Timestamps for Reference

• [00:00] Start; Perp DEXs overview, Aster’s rise
• [04:41] Historical perp wars context
• [07:38] Points farming and liquidity incentives
• [11:12] Execution vs. innovation in crypto
• [14:24] Regulatory capture, L2 spat
• [18:44] Farooq slams regulatory capture as “small-minded”
• [22:58] Dan Robinson quote on regulatory demon
• [26:30] Tether’s $500B private placement
• [31:01] Tom on Tether vs. Circle’s business models
• [39:06] Why Tether won’t IPO; “It’s an amazing cash flow business. Why would we go public?”
• [40:17] Tether compared to Berkshire Hathaway
• [43:41] Rain’s business model
• [48:29] Real-world cases and atomic payroll
• [54:01] How credit cards enable stablecoin mass adoption
• [59:41] Farooq on Rain’s explosive growth
• [62:15] Where to find Rain/Farooq

Tone & Language

The episode is energetic, playful, occasionally conspiratorial, but always insightful—with a blend of insider humor, pragmatic skepticism, and structural macro perspective. The conversational, industry-native language is direct (“shit at the wall,” “pulling up the moat,” “good luck to all combatants”). The speakers are unafraid to challenge each other's conclusions.

For New Listeners

• The “wars” for dominance in both perps and stablecoins are ongoing, cyclical, and filled with innovation and opportunism.
• Aster’s moonshot to #1 in perpetual DEXs may be fleeting—points-farming doesn’t guarantee long-term leadership, but underdogs and new challengers can’t be dismissed.
• Regulatory infighting is dangerous for the industry’s future—once cryptonatives “call in the regulators” on rivals, no one is safe.
• Tether’s business, likened to a “private Berkshire Hathaway,” is unprecedented in its reach and profitability; whether it’s really worth $500B in equity is hotly debated.
• Rain, as a B2B stablecoin platform, illustrates that stablecoins are rapidly breaching “real world” payments and payroll in ways most people don’t see—suggesting strong momentum for true global digital money.

Find Farooq (@rookster) and Rain (@RainXYZ) on Twitter/DX.

Host: Haseeb (@hosseeb) for Dragonfly; panelists Tom and Robert.