Loading summary
Transcript145 lines
- [00:00]
A
The most funny thing to me was like anthropic is alleging that it's this like deep sea minimax MoonShot used over 24,000 fake accounts and when I read that I was like only 24,000. Like they need to get some crypto bot farm. It's like 20,000 accounts is not that impressive.
- [00:21]
B
I'm a very big fan of AAVE Dao so I think it is a, it is a shame to see these service providers clash heads. But yeah, I don't think there's a negotiation that I don't think there's a happy way out this anymore which is not good for AAVE token holders. I don't know if you guys saw morpho flipped AAVE fdv which is insane.
- [00:46]
A
Hey everyone, I'm Kane Warrick and welcome to Uneasy Money. Because what happens on Chain never stays on Chain. I'm here with my co host Taylor Monahan, security expert and we are joined this week by by Namec, founding team member of Mega Eth. Welcome Namec.
- [01:03]
B
Thanks for having me.
- [01:04]
A
Of course. Very happy to have you. It's going to be fun. We're going to dive in into it all in a minute. But one quick thing before we start. Nothing you hear on Uneasy Money is financial advice. We're just three builders talking about what's happening on Chain and we want you to always do your own research before aping in. You can find all our disclosures@unchain crypto.com uneasy money before we begin, here's a word from the sponsors that make this show possible.
- [01:29]
C
The energy network is an intelligent decentralized grid that coordinates smart devices to balance supply and demand. Energy dollar is the native token of the network from one of Europe's fastest growing energy startups. Follow Use Energy on X to find out more. Multichain Advisors is an emerging technology growth firm the that has helped create 50+ billion dollars in enterprise value for 80+ clients over the past four years. They're the partner to help navigate markets build real traction. Today@multichainadv.com if crypto taxes feel overwhelming, you are not alone. That's why Crypto Tax Girl, a team that's been helping crypto investors since 2017, is offering $100 off on one on one crypto tax help. To get $100 off your crypto tax services, go to cryptotaxgirl.com Unchained. Again, that's cryptotaxgirl.com unchained.
- [02:32]
A
All right, so our first segment this week is Make Money by holding which is quite A concept I think we've forgotten that technology. So Brian Flynn, uh, this week wrote a viral article where he argued that most tokens are structurally broken because you make money by selling, not by holding. That turns alignment into a race to the exit. It's not alignment, it's just a race to the exit. So mockups, vesting, burns, buybacks, all of that stuff. He, he basically says it's kind of, you know, band aid solution doesn't actually solve the underlying issue. You haven't aligned incentives. You just, you know, built a game of musical chairs. And his proposed fix is, I thought it was going to be 100% unlocks at TG, but no. His proposed fix is 100% of protocol revenue governed by token holders with direct distributions voted on transparently. Therefore you don't profit by selling, you profit by holding. And this basically shifts competition outwards. So it's not, you know, PvP, it becomes, you know, more protocol versus protocol or business versus business. And he also points out the equity token convergence that we've seen from a lot of projects lately. A morpho, unis, swap, etc are kind of like you know, half measures towards this, this idea of like oh here's a fee switch or like you know, 20% of fees or whatever. But it's still a weird misalignment and we've talked about this on the show many times, right? This like misalignment between token holders and equity holders or token holders and some random guy down the street that has some, you know, incentive in whatever the project is. So Namek, I know you, you and I have talked about this a lot and I know you've thought about this, this, this problem particularly when it comes to your own token. You know, we've talked about this a lot in, in relation to IX as well. So yeah, I'm really curious your thoughts on, on this. What's, what's your hot take here?
- [04:54]
B
I mean I think it's pretty accurate. I would say the, the piece tokens are broken. It's because founders and investors have double dipped for too long. You know, you have a token, token doesn't do much and you still somehow have it be worth billions of dollars while value accrues to equity. So you know, foundations or someone somewhere gets a bunch of cash. I think that generally Brian makes a lot of good points. I will say it is a bit of a, you know, misnomer to say that no one's tried some sort of revenue based relationship in the past. So we've seen a lot of protocols Effectively give fees to stakers. It didn't work last cycle. We also saw people tried to do buybacks last cycle. It didn't work either. None of it mattered. Hyper liquid obviously caught like just checking.
- [05:53]
A
When you say last cycle, you mean like December, two months ago, right?
- [05:57]
B
Oh, I mean, Jesus Christ. I guess we're already in the bear market. Yeah, I meant black. Black cycle.
- [06:03]
A
Okay.
- [06:03]
B
You know, back when people remember the thing called Cosmos, which is basically Ethereum now, I guess. But yeah, I, I think that it, there's a lot that you know, Brian describes which is accurate. I think that he says basically there's two points for why this hasn't happened. One is again, insiders were eating too good with the status quo. That's gone now. And the second point is people are afraid of going to jail for, or getting fines for securities laws. And that's a bit more of a difficult thing to approach. I don't know how much better buybacks are compared to rev shares. I'm sure that there's a way to do it. If there's a will, there's a way. But I do generally like the idea of creating a structure where people don't have to be sellers to be able to get upside in a protocol success. That does sound nice.
- [06:58]
A
Yeah, I mean I think like on some kind of fundamental level, you know, and this is what we've, we've talked about a little bit is like everything has gone from being an investment to a trade. It's all just a trade, right? And trades typically time frames are shorter. So it's like, oh, uni's doing the fee switch, that's a good trade for 48 hours. And then I'm gonna rotate out of it and you know, do something else. Right. And, and I think that that has come a little bit from like the memification and purpification of everything. Right. We've got perks for everything. Memes. 48 hours is a long time, right? Like 48 minutes is probably better. Like you know, average holding time. And so when, when you know, tokens switch to these like very short term trading incentives and, and you know, holding for a few days, it, it kind of breaks all of the structural incentives, right? And, and you know, the only way to solve that is figure out a way that people want to hold your token, like give people an incentive, give them some upside or whatever such that they want to hold your token. And we haven't seen a lot of great examples of that. I probably hyper liquid, you know, as, as you were going to Mention is like the best one that we've had this cycle.
- [08:21]
B
I would say. Yeah, it's just difficult to underwrite tokens after you've seen what happened to every single one before. This time will be different. And it's really a question of like, okay, where are my equity like rights? How do I know that the team that I'm backing and it's always a team bet, in my opinion, how do I know that they are going to do the, like do what they need to do? I think that Kirby had a really good article that he posted today. It was about like Ethereum and how he's like upset of Ethereum. But it highlighted how much he loved Hyper Liquid because he felt like there was a team that he could really back and really believe in. So until we have clarity on the equity token difference, I think we're going to continue to have a scenario where people just aren't willing to underwrite tokens.
- [09:18]
A
Yeah, I mean, you know, I think like it is, it is interesting when you look at some of the kind of directional things that we're seeing super state, you know, these ideas of like just make it equity, which people understand, but just put it on the blockchain. Right. And if you can, if you can figure that out, maybe you get the best of both worlds. And I think, you know, there's something to be said for the benefits of like having clarity for someone who's holding an asset that they know what will happen. Right. And you know, we, we, I think all went through a period of time where we were like, well, a DAO will solve that. You don't need the law because you know, there's a governance structure in a multi sig or whatever and it just hasn't worked out to your point. Right. Like it just hasn't worked out that well. And there's only so many times you can do that and have it not work out well before you're like, actually I don't want to play that game. You know, let's, let's play different game.
- [10:26]
B
Yeah.
- [10:27]
A
So I guess, you know, we'll see, we'll see how this all converges. My, my hot take is that, you know, bare markets where you get more experimentation and so people will buy more things than, than they maybe tried over the last like 18 months. We'll see, we'll see how that goes. And I do think that, you know, Leshner and some of the people out there that are like, hey, let's try something really radical at least from like a crypto anarchist perspective. Of like, just put the equity in the token. I think we'll see. We'll see people, you know, really kind of open up the Overton window of like, how you can structure this. But I think the core thing is like, the jewel. The jewel model of like, equity in tokens. No one, no one's willing to know about it.
- [11:19]
B
You know, you made a joke earlier. I'd love to get your opinion. Do you think the answer is 100% unlocks on day one? Because a lot of smart money doesn't want to bid tokens of such structural overhang. You look at any of these tokens that say that market cap's like 200 mil and FDV is like 2 billion, and you're like, there's no world in which we're going to be able to absorb this amount of money. New liquidity in the market and it becomes very difficult to price. It becomes opaque. You know, sophisticated players are able to like, do all kinds of hedging. Retail gets screwed. Smart money doesn't touch it, I guess. Is there some truth in the joke you made?
- [12:03]
A
Honestly, no. I think 100% unlocks are like the dumbest possible thing that you could do. And, and so it was kind of like a joke at the expense of like, people who are like, oh, here's a bad thing about tokens. The solution is give me my money straight away, right? Like, you know, it's kind of the opposite of what, of what Brian's saying, right? Like, instead of locking people up and you know, this is, this is an interesting thing, right? And you know, full disclosure, I fully locked my mega allocation for a year, right? Very happily, because I was like, I want as much of an allocation as possible. I know it's like 8 trillion times over subscribed. So know, I'm just going to like, make sure that I maximize my, my exposure. And if I wasn't planning to sell it for a year anyway, then, like, that's positive EV for me, right? And I think that the people who are like 100% on locks, no structural overhang, that's not how startups work. Like, you know, let's talk about equity, right? Equity. Two people, they own 100% of a company. Someone comes along and buys 5% of it for whatever, $10 million or something, right? A billion if it's an AI startup. And then like, they're not worried that the two founders are going to dump on them 10 seconds later, right? Like, they like, you know, they have to kind of grow into that valuation. That's priced into the whole structure of the thing, right? Like, no one would give someone a hundred million dollars at a billion dollar valuation if they thought that that person had like a liquid exit the next day. Because most people would take that, right? They'll be like, ah, I got to hedge a little bit, bro. Like, come on. You know, so, so I just, I think, like, there is something to be said for you. The, the issue is not so much that a project or a business needs to grow into the, you know, it can be a really high multiple and then needs to mature into the liquidity that will, you know, eventually come on, on market. It's, it's just that like, if you, if you were to have 100% liquidity, no one's still, no one's going to want to buy it, right? It's not going to actually solve the problem. No one's going to buy it and the is going to be terrible. So it's better to lock people up and give yourself a chance to grow into that valuation later and, you know, actually like deliver some stuff, which is the whole idea, right? But this, you know, this comes back, I guess to the regulatory overreach where everyone's like, oh, we're not trying to deliver anything. Yeah, we don't, like, we're just hanging out guys in discord, right? Like, there's no plan here. And you know, to your point, like, people want to invest in a team, they want to back a team that's going to work really hard to do a thing. That's how incentives work, right? And the idea that like, we're just friends hanging out in a discord and, you know, we don't have any responsibility to, I think is, is a fit, nonsensical. So,
- [15:10]
D
yeah, if you want to hear like a super cute story, like back in like the early ICO days, I legitimately ask people around me, I was like, these, some of these projects are clearly like, not gonna make it. And like the, what they're, what their pitch is is like completely absurd. Like, you think they're gonna go, whatever, build battery powered EV cars on the moon and return dividends to you. Like, I'm sorry, what? Like, why are people buying this? And the first person that I talked to was like, well, it's like a whole other, you know, there's like a lot of reasons to buy things. It's not just because you believe in them or whatever and. But why? Because that's a silly idea, right? And the funniest thing about this is like, I have a front row seat to all this because they're all using my wallet, right, to buy in. I'm seeing the customer square tickets, I'm seeing everything. I have very good indications of what's going to make it and what's not. It took me like more than one sellout ICO to be like, oh, they're buying because if you get in, they can sell at 2x10x100x the following day with like no risk. Like the littlest amount of risk. And when I realized that, I was like, shit. Like, I don't, I don't want to be here. Like, I don't, I don't like it. But it was like my idealism and like optimism was ruined. But I was surprised. I mean, okay, so that itself was not surprising to me. The fact that we've like gone so far down, like just the nihilism rabbit hole over the subsequent decade, it does surprise me. Like I'm, I'm praying that at this point we finally hit rock bottom and been like, okay, like, can we actually create value here? And like, not every project is going to be successful, but when you only the market is only because of those sort of like low risk, guaranteed returns, you can't, there's no, what are we doing? Right? Like, you're not going to have the long term thinking. You're not going to have people trying to build stuff. It is always going to be a race to the exit.
- [17:23]
A
You know, the funny thing is though, right, like you look at ICOs and you go, like all the people who flip, like eat land or link or whatever, you know, they bought it in the ICO and they flipped it, right? Those people are, I'm sure they wake up every day and go, oh my God, like the ethic ico, right? Like watches. You know, there are a bunch of people who flip things because they thought it was going to be like, you know, a quick, short term, you know, 2x or whatever. And then the thing went like 2000x and they have to live with that every day. So I think, you know, it's, it, it is like unfortunately just part of the game, you know, and incentives are the thing that drives behavior, right? So, you know, if you have a scarce resource that people know is going to go up in price and they have liquidity straight away, it's going to exacerbate the situation. More people are going to run towards that. They're going to run towards the fire, not away from.
- [18:24]
D
Yeah, yeah, well. And obviously, and you know, if you have projects that are trying to do the long term. Great. Like, that's fantastic. That's what, like, you know, of the thousands of ICO projects, we did have things come out of that that were valuable. And that's good. That's great. The Meme coins, though, are not really trying. Right? At all.
- [18:48]
A
Yeah.
- [18:48]
D
So, you know, thank goodness we have like, some people that are experimenting and doing some, some different things. But I just, yeah, the. Just the ecosystem's desire to sort of go full bore on the flipping of tokens. I don't know. I'm not surprised when I'm surprised.
- [19:08]
A
And I'm also, I think it's just like, it's partially a momentum thing, right? Like, you know, trading gets shorter term, people's time horizon gets shorter term. Then people are like, what if we make it even easier to do shorter term things? And then like, it just, you know, there's this spiral.
- [19:24]
B
So.
- [19:26]
D
Yeah, well. And you're insane as a founder, if you're going to do a token. You're kind of insane to like, think about long term.
- [19:32]
A
Right.
- [19:33]
D
Like at some point like that, that's where you start getting like this nested shittiness. Right. Cause then what are. How are founders being incentivized to not play that game when everyone around them wants to play that game?
- [19:49]
A
Yeah, but I mean, you know, kind of the same thing, right? Like, there are a lot of founders who did an ICO and raise 5 mil or 10 mil or whatever, and like blew it on, you know, parties or whatever they did, and it probably was like a fun year or 18 months or whatever, and then they're straight back to being poor again. And you know, the founders who are like, well, I'm gonna stick around and build something here, and it didn't work out for all of them. There are plenty of people who stuck around and built, built things, and it still went terribly for them. They got hacked or whatever. You know, I'm sure we can think of a few that got hacked multiple times that were around in those days that were like, very earnest and trying really hard, and they just kept getting hacked every month. And, and so, you know, it's like, yeah, it's, it's, it's, I think, kind of a similar thing to like the ICO flippers, right? Like, short term people can do short term things. And like, okay, you put a thousand bucks in, you make a thousand bucks, great. But, you know, like, you're not going to end up being Stanley, you know, who's built a thing over a decade that's worth, you know, $5, right? Like, that's a, that only happens with long term games and long term thinking.
- [21:12]
C
Yeah.
- [21:12]
A
Which I guess leads us into our next segment that maybe, maybe long term, I don't know. So, so we've talked about this a few times. A civil war. I guess that's what it's escalated into now. And this one is kind of crazy. I was, I even, I was pretty surprised. Like, I've seen some, some in the Dow insanity wars that, that we've seen over the years. And, and this one was like, I don't know where these guys go. So BGD Labs is not going to renew its contract. Even that is like kind of funny, right? Like, who, what, what person ever has been like, stop paying me money, Dao. Like, it usually goes the other way around. But, but they're like, listen, we're just not.
- [22:04]
D
That's. Yeah, that's.
- [22:07]
A
It's crazy.
- [22:09]
D
What. I'm sorry, what?
- [22:10]
A
Like, so I was, I was pretty surprised about that. So they, they were like the lead engineers. They built AAVE V3 and the Governance. Tension over the future of the protocol and V3 versus V4, the brand, the ownership, the distribution, all of that stuff, who owns the user, etc. Has just like continually escalated until these guys and I, my, my hot take is that this is much more about v3 versus v4 and like the thing they built versus the new thing and you know, pushing what they see is like a lot more risk, etc. Mark Zeller, who has been on the show, who is leads another GAO delegate Avi chan initiative and has been one of lab's fiercest critics, recently said that it was devastating. His, his take was that it was devastating. And most of the revenue v3 generates today is driven by the BGD code and their innovations. He wrote. They saved AAVE more than once. They've been the most productive engineering team this ecosystem has ever had. So, yeah, all of that is not amazing. And I think this came out like three or four days ago and there hasn't been a retraction yet. So I guess maybe it's. This is the thing that's going to happen. So. Yeah, what are your, what are you, what's your take on this?
- [23:51]
B
You know, I'm a big DAO guy, so it's very sad to me. I, I don't know why, but everyone thinks DS are stupid. I get it. Like, everyone wants a benevolent dictator, but I, I've always been, at least ideologically, really big fan of Daos and we had, we didn't have much to show for it. They all failed except a. So it's very painful to see this happening. I have, like, a lot of respect for, like, you know, Mark and Stani, and, you know, I've interacted with BGD a bit, and they're absolutely integral to labs. I'm just. I'm just sad because I think this is almost like the nail in the. The back or the coffin of doubts. You know, with the new regulatory environment, you're seeing what's happened. Why on earth would you go and create a DAO now? So, yeah, it's very messy. I. Some Negev has somehow found itself somewhat involved in it, which is a bit, you know, ideal unideal, but I don't know.
- [24:57]
A
Dude.
- [24:58]
B
Bad luck? Bad luck?
- [25:03]
D
No, I. Dude, I totally, 100%. Like, I'm not the biggest fan of Dallas, but I find this to be just tragic on so many fronts because it just feels like it's theoretically avoidable and then everyone can go back to making money and being happy. And I think, like, Kane and I talked about this early on, and then we had Mark on the show. We kind of all assumed that it would. We were like, okay, there's drama, but, you know, they're all like, calmer heads. We'll prevail. It'll be fine. Everyone's going to be fine. And then this past week, I feel like, wait, maybe not. Like maybe we're not gonna make it. And that just. That just sucks. Like, it just sucks more for flip.
- [25:48]
A
Yes, there are some Brinks. There's Brinkson ship going on that like, feels like negative ev. But people, like, clearly there, like, there's like, emotions going on in the background here where. Where people are like, I'm putting my foot down this time.
- [26:04]
D
Yeah.
- [26:05]
A
I mean, one. One interesting thing. There was an audit, and I don't know how accurate this. This was. I guess it came from a. So maybe it's. It's very accurate. My assumption is that Mark knows what he's talking about. But. But I don't. I don't know that claims that ave's been granted eight, six million dollars to date. Granted. Or that's like their fee, revenue or whatever. I mean, like, on one hand, it's a lot of money, but it's a big org. And, you know, presumably that's over five, six years or something like that. Right. So, you know, it's not like an insane amount of money. There's. There's crypto projects and companies that spend that, like, you know, every month. So. So, you know, it's. It's. It. I don't know. I. That, to me, didn't feel like a huge concern, but the fact that their core engineers left that. That was a bit. I wasn't aware of that. That's. That's kind of surprising. So, yeah, it's, you know, unfortunately, everyone's like, airing their dirty laundry at this point. They're just, like, going to town on each other.
- [27:26]
D
So, yeah, I think to me, the 86 million, like, especially over the time period that we're talking about, not like, I don't have a problem with that number. I do think it's interesting that he's framed it, though, that because, like, a lot of different people in the AAVE ecosystem are get. Have gotten money under different conditions and stuff. But it sounds like the labs 86 million was sort of just like a free for all. Like they, you know, like everyone else sort of had to go through these processes and do reports and stuff like that. But I guess Labs maybe was. Had a different set of, like, you
- [28:06]
A
know, in fairness, right. The founders there, they're in a privileged position. There was a period of time, I would say, where labs, you know, and I take Mark's point about, you know, BGD saving aave, whatever. Like, there was a point where labs was the only thing that existed for aave, right? Like, there was no now. There was no anything. It was like STANI and like, a couple of people in a room, and they managed to grind their way through 2018, 2019, and come out the other side, and very few other people did. Right. So, you know, I, again, I think, like, there's just stuff on all sides of this, and everyone has a probably fairly reasonable perspective. There's just been, you know, more and more fuel burned on the fire, and it just keeps escalating. So, yeah, we'll see to see what happens.
- [28:57]
B
The situation is actually quite nuanced. So out of the 86 million fertility mil came from the DAO, while the rest was from, you know, the ICO as well as, you know, Avara, I believe, Venture rounds. So what I find interesting about this audit is, like, it obviously highlights that, you know, AVI Labs has a ton of tokens, right? So, you know, quarter of the token supply is sitting with the AAVE team, I believe, so AAVE Labs team. So I think that was a pretty important point. And then I think the second point that ACI was trying to make is that a lot of the success around V3 over the past few years was a function of BGD and ACI's work while Avara focused on multiple business lines. I think that's the crux of his argument. I think it's. Obviously, tensions are high, but I think some of it is valid. I also don't think the $86 million number is that crazy, given how important the AAVE is and what AAVE's been able to achieve in crypto.
- [30:02]
A
Yeah, I interview.
- [30:06]
D
What's the, like, Wait, wait, wait, wait. What's the wave of magic wand, like, outcome that's, like, the best for everyone here? Not, like, ignore the doubt, ignore the drama. Right. Like, if you could wave a magic wand, like, where do things land that make it perfect, happy, everyone wins. Do we know? Is there one.
- [30:30]
A
At this point? At this point, it doesn't seem like it. There were points in this timeline where there probably was a chance to win this back. It feels like at this point, there's no out here. Everyone's just escalating and, you know, pushing things further and. Yeah, it doesn't. It doesn't seem like there's a negotiation that's on the table here.
- [30:56]
B
Yeah, I think the mental model is that labs believes now is the time to kind of act aggressively, to take AAVE to the next level almost. And I think that, you know, a lot of the pain points traditionally associated with daos and, like, working with a bunch of stakeholders, it's. It definitely, I think, creates frustration and agitation. But, yeah, I mean, I'm a very big fan of AAVE dao, so I think it is a. It is a shame to see these service providers clash heads. But, yeah, I don't think there's a negotiation that. I don't think there's a happy way out of this anymore, which is not good for AAVE token holders. I don't know if you guys saw morpho flipped AAVE fdb, which is insane.
- [31:46]
A
Yeah, it's crazy. It's crazy. I mean, I think one thing that's interesting to me about this is, like, there is an element of, like, family feuding sort of thing here. Like, you know, the avidao has actually been, like, so close. People are friends. And also, you know, when. When that goes badly, it's like, can get really ugly. Right? Like, you know, family. Families starting to war with each other. So, you know, I think that's also part of it as well, is, like, people feel a sense of, like, betrayal. And, you know, you were my friend and, you know, I thought that we were aligned and all of that stuff, which. Which, you know, I think also kind of exacerbates the situation.
- [32:31]
B
So I actually believe BGD founder was the previous CTO at aave. So yes, it's really. Yeah, it's a really a complicated situation.
- [32:44]
A
Yeah. Yeah.
- [32:49]
D
Guys, you're supposed to tell me there's a magic wand. It's gonna be fine. What the.
- [32:56]
B
Hi.
- [32:57]
A
Maybe AI will come in and solve the problem.
- [33:01]
D
Quadbot, get in here. Dude, fix our.
- [33:05]
A
Yeah, they need more cloud bots. All right, before we continue, here's a word from the sponsors that make this show possible.
- [33:13]
C
The world is about to see one of the largest infrastructure shifts of the century. New technologies are using more energy than ever before, but our legacy grids can't supply the demand and we are barreling towards a global bottleneck. So Fuse is rebuilding it. The Energy Network is an intelligent, decentralized grid that coordinates smart devices to balance supply and demand. The network harmonizes existing infrastructure, increases grid capacity, and unlocks low cost clean energy. Energy dollar is the native token of the network. The more electricity the world needs, the higher the demand for the energy dollar network. The value of energy dollars may fluctuate from one of Europe's fastest growing energy startups. Follow Use Energy on X to find out more. Multichain Advisors is an emerging technology growth firm that has helped create over $50 billion in enterprise value for more than 80 clients. Like Pith, Moonpay Commerce and Wormhole. They've worked with some of the largest and most impactful companies in the space. They're the partner you want when you're navigating markets and trying to break out from the noise. They help navigate TGEs, go to market, BD and partnerships, capital markets, advisory, PR, media placements, KOL activations and more, driving execution from launch to scale. Their results are measurable. To learn more and start building real traction today, visit multichainadv.com if you're looking for help with crypto taxes, Crypto Tax girl is offering $100 off for Unchained listeners. They provide personalized crypto tax reports and returns and spots before April 15th are limited. Go to cryptotaxgirl.com Unchained to save $100. Once again, the link is cryptotaxgirl.com unchained.
- [35:12]
A
All right. Speaking of AI saving us, there was news this week, or yesterday maybe, of this new AI distillation pack on Anthropic. So this is a bit of a strange idea, right? That you can kind of reverse engineer a model by talking to it enough? It's not that strange. You could think about it like, if I spend enough time talking dynamic, I'd eventually be able to like get a good sense of what he might do, right. And so, you know, people, people have been people. China apparently has been creating these bot farms, botnets, to effectively create fake accounts, interact with Claude and try and reverse engineer the models. Now there's been some like anecdotal things and I think some of these are like apocryphal. Some of them are like semi real where some of the distilled open source models that have been coming out lately, like think they're clawed or like think that they're some like mid journey or whatever. And, and so, you know, there's probably some truth to this. I would say I did find it funny. Probably the most funny thing to me was like Anthropic is alleging that it's like Deep Seek Minimax MoonShot used over 24,000 fake accounts. And when I read that, I was like, only 24,000. Like, they need to get some crypto, like crypto ballpark. It's like 20,000 accounts is not that impressive. So, so I think, you know, there's a whole bunch of considerations here. And I know that there was another thing that happened right before we, we got on, which is this kind of like standoff between the US government and Dario where he's like, we're not going to let you build autonomous war bots or whatever it is that they wanted. And you know, the interesting thing is that like these distilled models and open source models can strip out a lot of the stuff, right? Protections or whatever. Now, you know, some people are very anti AI protection protections and some people are very pro having protections built in. But you know, there's no question that like, I mean, I think I, I said this last week, right? I went down this rabbit hole of you can plug Claude into a robot. Now you can just get like a Raspberry PI and plug it into it. And I've got a robot that's walking around. I haven't done it yet. I've got one of the uni tree robot dogs. So I'm, I'm hoping to find some time over the next couple of weeks and plug Claudia into that. But so here's the thing, right? Like you get one of those robot dogs and they're cool, they can like, they can stand up on their hind legs and like roll over and stuff, right? But I have a real dog. Like, my real dog's cooler, right? And also you like to do it. You've got to hold the Remote. There's like, a remote control, and you got to, like, be doing the remote control all the time, right? So, like, after, like, 20 minutes of that, I'm like, all right, I'm done doing this remote control thing, like walking around the house or, like, walking around the office or whatever, but if it was just, like, walking around itself and rolling over and, like, opening cabinets, that would be mad. And so. So, you know, my hot take is that we're going to see the intersection of, like, LLM, inference and robotics hit us, like, really soon. And it's going to be crazy. Can you. It's one thing you're talking to Claude or Codex or something like that, right? And it's, like, doing crazy. Like, Tay, you were saying how it, like, solves some thing for you, right? But, like, it's still in the computer, right? Like, it's in the computer and you're talking to it and, you know, you feel a sense of control that it's trapped inside of comp machine. Right. If it just, like, grew legs instead of walking around. Right. Weird. Really quickly. I think so. But that's what's happening.
- [39:58]
D
Yeah. Well, and there was. I had a fear. So me and. Me and K were talking about this before the show, but basically there was a. There's a security incident last night, and it. It, like, sort of figuring out what happened required going through basically a huge code base, but, like the output code base, right? So, like the bundled compiled code base, which is like 500,000 lines. And I was so impressed because the AI just like, went to town. Normally this takes multiple security researchers going through the lines, trying to find the patterns, you know, decompiling it, deobuskinning it. It was just like zooming right in and did it all super, super fast. The crazy thing, though, is that when we're doing some of this, there was at one point there was, like, a possibility that, that, like, they had accidentally bundled some. Some keys that they shouldn't have, like some authentication keys that they shouldn't have. And I had this. I had this moment where I was like, wait, if I keep telling Claude to keep going, figure out if that's the authentication key, what's the chance that he's going to just go try to log in and just accidentally hack their server? I was like, okay, do I have any controls on this thing? But you can imagine if. Then you do that in real life. Bro, we're all cooked. We're done.
- [41:33]
A
No, it's like. It's like literally, like, walking around, like, moving around in Your fridge and like, oh, like, I got you some new food. And it's like, it's gonna be. You know, one thing that was interesting to me, I've got my. I've got my, like, open floor machine, which is in. In one location that I'm oftentimes remoting into. It is this week. Claude Cli stopped working over SSH for me. And I was like, huh, I wonder. I was able to get it working again. But, like, I felt like they had some kind of detection that you were like, not on the machine, that you're like remotely accessing the machine and forcing you to log in all the time. So they've clearly started to tighten the controls on this. But I don't know how you can stop this realistically. Like, this feels. This feels like an intractable problem to me.
- [42:36]
B
Sorry, I was just going to ask. Did you guys see the Lunar New Year's thing in China where they had the robot doing backflips?
- [42:44]
A
Yes. Yeah, I did see that.
- [42:45]
B
That was insane. If you look at last year to this year, it is insane. So, yeah, dude, it's like, it's over. Just enjoy, Enjoy life for the next, like, six months.
- [42:58]
A
I. That's. Yeah, I feel, I feel.
- [43:00]
D
No. Cause you're gonna, you're gonna, you're gonna, you're, you're, you're at your house, you're on vacation. You tell your little robot at home to, like, check if your front door is locked. Like, pray that he fully understands you and doesn't, like, doesn't go, like, do a durability test on your front door or whatever. Like, it's gonna be freaking insane.
- [43:22]
B
Yeah.
- [43:23]
A
Yeah.
- [43:27]
D
But, yeah, I think the geopolitics. The geopolitics of this is super interesting because ultimately I think that there's a lot of people who kind of assumed that this would go in a somewhat similar way as, like, the Internet did where, like, yeah, there's geopolitics in it. But, like, I don't think people expect this.
- [43:51]
A
It's so much worse.
- [43:52]
D
Yeah.
- [43:53]
B
Everything.
- [43:53]
D
And it's already so polarized every way.
- [43:59]
A
Like, you could be concerned about a technology. Right. And I was talking to my team about this, this week. Right. Like, a lot of them were born this century. Right. Like, um, which is crazy to me at least. Right. Um, and. And it's like they didn't go through that transition of like, these new form factors of like, desktop computers and then laptops, and then, you know, they saw mobile phones. But, like, maybe there were like four or something when the iPhone came out or whatever. And you know, I think when you've been through, because time is compressing, right? When you've been through in your lifetime, multiple radical transformations of form factors of interacting with machines. This is another one of those, right? Like it's another transition to a new form factor of like this is how you will interact with the machine. You're not going to, you know, type on the keys, right? You're going to like just talk to it or whatever. But every analogy just falls flat, right? Because like a laptop to a phone and then the thing is smarter than you. Like there was no risk of like the phone's going to get too smart, right? Like, or like, you know, like laptop is going to start doing weird shit. Like they're deterministic machines and now all of a sudden we've got this like non deterministic bold math that's like running around doing shit. It's, it's very different in every way and like it can make itself smarter. You know the thing that everyone who I know that's been like deep, deep into like agenda coding over the last six months has worked out that they need to do is like build their own software, like builder own harness to run the machine. Because you start doing stuff and you realize really quickly how much you are the largest impediment to this loop going faster, which is so bearish for people. It's like I need to get myself out of this loop as quickly as possible so that this thing can just cook and I need to like just let go. And it's crazy.
- [46:24]
D
Yeah, but I mean it's, and that's why I think people are scared is that people have a solid understanding that at some point it's just gonna, it's really gonna have a life of its own. And then yeah, you're like, wait, but also China is gonna have that also, like Russia is gonna have that. Like also we're gonna have that. Like is that a good thing? Even if you think the US is
- [46:50]
A
great,
- [46:53]
D
you still are going to ask the question, right? And I think it is, it's scary. It's scary for people to like to think about this stuff. I think like specifically the distillation conversation is like a bit, little bit overblown. But I think like what the conversation points to meaning, like wait, are we sure that we want to have people that already have a huge amount of power and influence and like might end up doing bad things? Do we really want them to also have autonomous agents that can do these things as well? That's the question.
- [47:30]
A
Yeah. The problem is they're going to. Everyone's going to. It's just the way that it's going to be. And so, you know, there's an inevitability to it. I think, you know, one of the ways that this is playing out, right, like the people who are on the bleeding edge of AI stuff, there's a lot of crypto people. You know, unfortunately for the AI people, there's a lot of crypto people at the bleeding edge of this. And so we've already started seeing people kind of seed control of funds or like a meme coin, treasury or whatever. So this AI trading bot, Lobstar Wild, which is amazing, built by an OpenAI employee, which is also crazy, like how that guy's 100 getting fired, but accidentally when the trading bot actually sent this entire meme point treasury to a random X reply, because I guess it was like giving out money on X. Also Nikita is going to nuke this thing because he hates bots, right? So now that like it's just create like crypto and above is giving out money on X like that thing. Was it probably good that it gave the money away so that at least it didn't get nuked? But yeah, this, I mean that was. Or, or not. He gave it to a random guy on AX who went like one. You don't. You're skeptical. You're. You're skeptical.
- [49:01]
D
Tay, the guy on AX was begging. He was begging for the money and the bot just wanted to help him out because the amount that he asked for was actually a reasonable amount. What ended up happening was that the bot messed up the decimals and that's why a little bit in there. And we have all been there. They are just like us.
- [49:30]
A
Is this 18 decimals or 6 decimals? I can't remember. It's probably 6. It'll be 5.
- [49:36]
B
So. So
- [49:40]
A
yeah, I think, I think like this is the way that people are going to interact with crypto. It's the way that they're going to interact with their computers. It's going to be the way they interact with like all of this stuff is going to be through agents. And agents are not deterministic.
- [49:56]
B
They do weird shit.
- [49:58]
A
It's going to be crazy.
- [50:03]
B
So there's. There was two interesting things on my radar when it came to like all the AI situation this week. First was like the Citrini article. I'm sure you guys read that. It's just like very.
- [50:15]
A
I'm.
- [50:15]
B
I, I'll have to tell you Guys, a bit of a secret. I am a little bit of a AI doomer. If I could click a button to like, you know, pause or like slow things down globally, I probably would click that button. I think everyone's going to hate me. Every listener will probably think I'm crazy. So that was. You're going to be interested in me and Vitalik. Vitalik. I'm also going to add there, you know, you guys were talking about how scary it is to have all these crazy people have power of AI and like, you know, bombs and nukes or whatever. You know, Vitalik did propose this thing which everybody hated on the timeline, which was like anti data center populism was like NIMBY but for data centers. I thought it was quite an interesting visceral reaction. I will say one thing which, you know, I get the general sentiment on ct, which is, you know, oftentimes V is right after the fact. You know, he was, when it came to all of the like politics stuff, you know, everyone thought he was like being very foolish when he was saying we have to kind of not make political bets in crypto. So that in hindsight was very correct. I am very tired of winning. Please, we need to stop winning so much. I also think like, you know, the guy is like quite post economic. So, you know, I, I don't necessarily feel, I think a lot of us are like bag aligned, right? Like we all want to make a bunch of money to not be in the permanent underclass and stuff. So like, you know, AI might meaningfully disrupt the world, but as long as we all did the anthropic series kajillion, right, like, we're fine. So I don't know, I think that, I thought it was quite interesting to see just this insanity in what's happened in one week, right? We have Citrini saying the economy might literally go to zero. We had, you know, today Claude and Fropic say that they're being vampire attacked by the Chinese and meanwhile Vitalik is saying let's riot against the data centers. It's kind of a ridiculous timeline. It's insane.
- [52:21]
A
It really is. It really is. But I think, I think it's, it's, you know, the thing that I've been saying to, to my team for. I, I did like a two hour symposium last week, right, where I was like, guys, you need to understand the arc of this, right? This has been going on for 30 years. It's been going on for 60 years. But for 30 years we've been like, holy shit, these things are gonna fucking kill us. And it's just been a slow burn and like the burn just started to get faster and lost like few months. But like when you're in the middle of a conflagration, like, shit just starts getting crazy. People are running around everywhere, right? So that it feels like that is genuinely like the acceleration of the angst and like, you know, smart people being like, what is my purpose? And you know, all of this stuff that's going on, like it's gonna get worse before it gets better. Is. Is my hot take. Like, I'm. I'm not. I'm not an AI doomer. Although, like, you know, I. I think that there's like a 30% chance of a fast takeoff. And once there's a 30% chance of fast takeoff, like, you know, fast takeoff is. Is this idea that the machines start to be able to improve themselves and there's like a recursive self improvement loop and it just goes straight like. And a fast takeoff, you know, there can be 10 minutes. Like literally it gets to a level of how smart it needs to be to improve itself and then does one loop and gets 1% faster and the loop gets 1% tighter. And then 10 minutes later, it can control time.
- [54:11]
B
2027. The fog piece that was circulating like last year. Yeah, I just keep thinking about it. Have you heard of it, Taylor?
- [54:21]
D
Yeah. I mean, okay, so my. I'm a weird one because like, I am partially a doomer. Like, I think that we're all like, this is going to end terribly or not end terrible. It's going to be terrible.
- [54:37]
A
It's so bright.
- [54:38]
D
Insane. Okay. But I don't think that there's any reasonable way to like stop it or meaningfully slow it down. And so given that, I think the best approach that we can take is for the people that are not insane and like sprinting brainlessly and accelerating, you know, like the. The doomers, basically. I think the best place for them to focus their energy is on basically sitting there not trying to stop it, but trying to contain it and react to the stuff and like maybe foresee some of the bad things and get ahead of those, rather than like these two divided sides where some people are like trying to stop the entire thing and the other people are just increasingly running faster without any regard. So that's my. I definitely don't. I'm not, I'm not a. I should. I'm not a person who's going to say like, hey, I should like hit that recursive loop and go to the moon right now, like, I don't think that. But if it does, like, I would rather have people.
- [55:59]
A
Yeah, well, I think like it's out of our hands. This is the problem, right. We have, we have no ability in the time frame that AI is going to exceed our intelligence. Whether you believe that that's one year, five years, 50 years. Right. We have no mechanism by which to reel them in.
- [56:22]
D
Yeah.
- [56:22]
A
Once they reel themselves out, we like, it's out of our hands. Right. And so, so I, there is a sense that, that I have at least of like they'll be aligned or they won't be. And we have no way to reason about what a super intelligent machine may or may not do. And so we just have to hope because we're not doing about that. Unfortunately, once like people have these weird kind of silly like narrow views of like, you know, it's like a magical thinking of like, oh, the super intelligent machine that's a thousand times small. I'll be able to reason with it or like, I'll be able to like cajole it into doing things or it might love me or like what? Like, no, bro, like none of those things. It hasn't does. Like, it just is not a thing. None of that is a real thing. You won't be able to talk to it. Like, you'll be lucky if it talks to you. Right. And so it's just, it's like, and that's almost inevitable. Like it is almost inevitable that there will be beings wandering around that are a thousand times smarter than the smartest person who ever lived. And, and we just have to fucking hope that that's okay for us.
- [57:41]
B
Yeah, it's like the ultimate Moloch case, right? So you know, in an ideal scenario, everyone just like pauses and puts a bunch of work into like alignment, right? Like aligning these AIs. But you know, capitalism plays a role and everyone's just trying to be him. Everyone's trying to build Dai, make the most money. And you know, if it, if it doesn't work out, like, oh, well, you know, it's over. So I do think it's a bit, there's a bit of this irony where the, the, there's like this feedback loop of like human greed which prevents us from like pausing to try and like align the AIs that may, you know, cause us a lot of problems down the road. We'll see what happens. I'm also kind of like, I've just stopped thinking about it. It's not up to me. I don't get to convince Sam Altman to align the AI. So I just try and build a real time blockchain so they have a fast chain for Nikki Tom.
- [58:45]
A
They'll let you live inside the blockchain. They'll be like, we like this blockchain. You can wait a time.
- [58:52]
B
I can sit in a. And they'll have like me in my room because I built infrastructure and they're like, I own one.
- [59:01]
A
We like infrastructure. You're a good guy, a good kid. We're going to look so. So speaking of good kids, Zach, XBT is doing an expose tomorrow. So on on Monday, he teased that on Thursday, which I guess is in like 12 hours or something, that he's going to release a report alleging prolonged insider trading at one of crypto's most profitable businesses, but with no names. And some people were like, well, a lot of crypto projects are going to be relieved to hear the words profitable businesses. So it really narrows it down though. There's not that many of them. And so people were like, immediately pump hype Meteora and. And weirdly also, like, a lot of those projects sold off as well with the idea that, you know, there's going to be some kind of insider trading scandal there. Poly Market, as they love to do, as they've gotten very good at doing, immediately had market up to. To let people bet on who it was going to be.
- [60:21]
B
They didn't add themselves though.
- [60:24]
A
No, they didn't add themselves. Maybe they just walked. Like, I feel like. I feel like.
- [60:31]
D
No, I found out. I found out the Poly Market is not profitable. Do you know this? They only turned the switch on like a month ago or something.
- [60:43]
A
Fees, bro. How are they going to be profitable? Is the profit going to come from.
- [60:49]
D
I had no idea.
- [60:54]
A
Yeah, no.
- [60:58]
D
Yeah. And then, well, and then today call, she released an article saying that they. They found two insider traders and they have the sole investigations unit. How she laughing?
- [61:12]
B
I was like, front runs, Zach, xbt,
- [61:16]
A
they, they will just find a way to get in the midst of whatever is going on and be like, we are. We will do more. You thought that there was going on if we will double down on that every time, every time someone does something dumb. And Couchi's like, we can be dumber than that. Watch. And then like 20 minutes later they're like, we've done it this.
- [61:42]
B
So do you guys think it's going to be onchain or offchain?
- [61:48]
A
I mean, it's weird to say profitable business. Like, I feel like. I feel like Zach is not an idiot. Right? Like, he wouldn't say Jupiter if he meant a business. I don't think, like, he wouldn't say unis swap. Maybe not though. Maybe it was just an off the cuff thing. But like, business to me means like C. That's my assumption is It's. It's a C5 thing. Maybe that's cope. I don't know.
- [62:12]
B
I hope it's C Fi. We really can't, like, you know, I don't think it's gonna be hyper liquid. I think hypes too, like, just too goated. But yeah, if it was hype, we'd be like cooked.
- [62:24]
A
It would be such a funny versus. Are they honey frozen?
- [62:30]
B
Oh, my God.
- [62:31]
D
Who's insider trading Aube though? Like, that's what. I don't.
- [62:35]
A
It just. It would be funny if it was. I don't know what if there would be insider trading, but it would just be funny. So we've got it. Yeah, we've got the. Yeah, we've got the chart up here. So who's winning right now?
- [62:49]
D
All right, where are we at? Okay, well, so it flipped because Meteora, like a few hours ago, I guess, released like a big article saying that they've like, you know, that when they. It's been like the big blow up. So they're like, we take this stuff really seriously and we're no longer doing the things that we used to do because they used to be really in bed with like all the tokens.
- [63:15]
B
We no longer commit insider trading. We've. We've learned our ways.
- [63:20]
A
Yeah.
- [63:22]
D
Basically they were like, we. We're just focusing on being permissionless and we don't even talk to the deployers anymore, which is like. I mean, it was really bad. I don't know how true that is, but they did release an article which shot Meteora down. It was like, God, what 50% for a minute there. Now it's down to 32%. Yeah, yeah, yeah. I'm also just shocked at how big this market is. I don't think Zach expected this. I think. Well, okay, so I have some insider information. Typically when Zach teases something, it's not because he's actually trying to build anticipation for it historically. It's because, like, he has an investigation and it's going to take like, it's already sort of done. Right. He's already done it. He already has the answer. He already. Right. But then you have to, like, write it up and present it and make the graphics and, like, do it in a way that the general public can Understand? Which is sometimes taking, like, a huge amount of disparate information and packaging it up. Typically or historically? I won't say typically. Historically. When Zach teases things, it's to, like, force him. It's like to give himself a deadline. He has no boss, right? So it's like sort of like a self, which is how I took his post. I was like, oh, like, he's got. He. He's got a good one, but he needs to write it up. So we'll see in a few days. And then it blew the up. This is wild. The volume's like 20 mil on polymarket.
- [64:59]
A
Yeah, it's crazy. It's crazy. It was just like that. It would be funny, though, if there was insider trading by the project that knows that it's them. That would be. Yeah, that would be pretty wild. I feel like at that point you're like,
- [65:24]
D
Someone explained me that the reason. So when Meteor, like, started to ops Herck, the reason why people thought it was Meteora and then it sort of shot up was because people were basically like, well, whoever it is, is going to insider trade it. And therefore, if it's like, therefore it is Meteora, because obviously meteor people very insider trading.
- [65:48]
A
The same recursive thing.
- [65:52]
D
And I was like, oh, is that what's up? Oh, I didn't real. Like, I mean, it makes sense, but I don't think that that's happening.
- [66:03]
A
Okay, I think we got. We got time for one more story. So Ethereum has released a straw map. Acceleration or wish casting. I don't know. What? I don't know. What the hell? What, what is this about someone else?
- [66:21]
B
I. I love Ethereum to bits, but, like, who the hell came up with name Straw Map? Like, it sounds like you're purposely like, straw manning the idea of a roadmap. And like, who picks the name Straw Map? That makes no sense outside of that. It sounds like 1 million TPS L2s, 10k TPS L1. Super bullish. You know, the future's never been brighter, but yeah, I don't think the name is great. So classic.
- [66:51]
A
Yeah, classic Ethereum. I mean,
- [66:55]
D
man mob.
- [67:01]
A
It doesn't make sense.
- [67:02]
D
Sorry, go ahead. Just go ahead.
- [67:05]
A
Like, I'm just gonna. It doesn't quite make sense. Is it like, is it supposed to be fake? I don't, like. I don't get, like. I really don't get it. So, so. But the interesting thing.
- [67:14]
D
No, no, it's supposed to be. It's supposed to be like, you know, like a straw man argument where you, like, Battle it up.
- [67:19]
A
Like I, I, yeah, I get it. It's just like, like they want you for a nap.
- [67:27]
D
Like a. Yeah, that's not how it works.
- [67:31]
A
I think that's, I get it. It's just to make. It's nonsense. I do. Like, I agree with Namek here. So something we haven't talked about and I think we should, we should get someone on the, the thing. You know, we, we have talked about Ethereum and Ethereum acceleration and the tech getting better and efficiency and all of that stuff, which when you then look out at the 2, 3 year roadmap of like ZKEVM and like all of this stuff, it starts to feel a lot more real than it would have two years ago. And you know, two years from now you have like magical moon math. Ethereum that can do like a trillion transactions a second and gas is super cheap. Like genuinely it is hard for me to imagine in a world where that exists how there is any other blockchain that is going to be able to compete with that, like the network effects. And you know, if this actually works and they're able to pull it off, it feels like it's going to one shot. A lot of things. I mean, what like Namek, obviously you've got some takes on this, I hope, right?
- [68:46]
B
Yeah.
- [68:47]
A
Right.
- [68:47]
B
Just to clarify, you're talking about the Ethereum roadmap or.
- [68:50]
A
Yeah, I'm talking about the Ethereum roadmap. Like, like there was a period of time where it was like Ethereum will eventually do things. We don't really have a timeline but like, you know, in the future it will be different. And then it started to really like actually like do some stuff to the point now where like the technical roadmap, it feels much more credible in a, you know, I don't know if we're all, you know, get turned into paper flips by AI before they get zkebm, but like it feels like it's close now and when. I wouldn't have bet on that a year ago.
- [69:23]
B
Yeah, I mean I think like the EF is just like in the best place it's been in so long and I'm like unbelievably excited. I think why they fired then?
- [69:33]
A
Why did they fire their best guy?
- [69:36]
B
Yeah, that's, that was a bit problematic. But he didn't go to Tempo, so hey, we got that much. No, but all, all jokes aside, I, I don't know, it's just, I think that the problem that Ethereum has had for the longest time is it's had a big marketing issue. It's had a big, big comms issue. You know, they, they made some mistakes, right? Like, if Vitalik had his, like, L2 road map article where he was like, you know, L2s, as they are today are, like, kind of stupid. Like, they are not getting what they're supposed to get done. We're making a lot of big moves of Ethereum L1. I think we did not have someone similar to, like, Mert almost, right, who can come and champion the roadmap, the technical ambitions of the chain and the larger community. But I don't think, like, Ethereum has been in such a strong place in a very long time. And I am consistently very grateful for Ethereum leadership. You know, I think there's very good people who are here for the same reasons I'm here, and I'm just genuinely quite excited. And, you know, they, they bring a lot of young blood. So I know a lot of people who have joined Ethereum that are, like, you know, in their 20s, helping out the marketing division. Benji, Sophia. It's really awesome to see. And I. I feel like there's this great resurgence and there's like, new blood into Ethereum. The old guard is being nuked, the old Ethereum gardens being nuked, and a new generation is emerging. So I'm really excited. Yeah, I'm quite keen. I also think it's complementary of Magi, so I'm not worried. But we might have to launch Terry for something given this new strawman roadmap. Who knows?
- [71:21]
A
All right, I think we can wrap it up there if you. You guys are. Are happy with that. Thank you very much. Ne for.
- [71:33]
B
Thanks for having me.
- [71:34]
A
That was very fun and, yeah, hopefully we'll get you back on the show in the near future. That's it for this episode of Uneasy Money. Thank you for tuning in. If you like the episode, follow us on the Unchained feed on X, YouTube or wherever you get your podcast. Foreign and at Lifelock, we know you're tired of numbers, but here's a big one you need to hear. Billions. That's the amount of money and refunds the IRS has flagged for possible identity fraud. Now here's another big number. 100 million. That's how many data points LifeLock monitors every second. If your identity is stolen, we'll fix it. Guaranteed. One last big number. Save up to 40% your first year. Visit lifelock.com podcast for the threats you can't control. Terms apply.