Podcast Summary: Unchained - "Uneasy Money: Why Tokenholders Have No Rights & Why Every DAO ‘Has Failed’" (Ep. 984)
Date: December 19, 2025
Host: Laura Shin
Panelists: Kane Warrick, Luca Netz (Pudgy Penguins), Taylor Monahan (MetaMask), Guy from Athena
Episode Overview
This episode of "Unchained" dives into the complex questions of ownership and rights in DeFi protocols and DAOs. The panel unpacks the recent AAVE governance dispute, explores the true rights (or lack thereof) of tokenholders, examines failed acquisition/alignment stories, and discusses the efficiency and future of DAOs. Broader industry topics include Solana's new Firedancer client, high-profile mergers and acquisitions, identity scams in crypto, and notable security incidents. The tone throughout is irreverent, skeptical, and informed, with the guests calling out both the promise and dysfunction of crypto governance structures.
Key Discussion Points & Insights
1. AAVE Governance "Civil War": Who Owns the Protocol?
Timestamp: [03:00] – [11:27]
- Background: There was controversy over whether AAVE Labs or the AAVE DAO should receive certain integration fees—the latest deal funneled revenue to Labs rather than the DAO, breaking with precedent.
- Core Issue:
- Kane: "If the token holders own the thing, do they have a right to all revenue? Or can people who are not necessarily aligned with the token holders monetize the IP via front end and keep that money for themselves?" [04:40]
- Comparison: The WeWork/Adam Neumann trademark sale is brought up as a parallel, noting how IP can be spun out from the main entity for profit.
- Panel Reactions:
- Taylor (MetaMask): "The DAO foundation model has been very weird since very early days... it was mostly to avoid any accountability and regulations and laws. And that has some downsides, it turns out." [05:52]
- Luca (Pudgy Penguins): "DAOs are notoriously inefficient." [07:21]
- Guy (Athena): "Factually, if you own the token, you don't actually, really, actually have the rights, is kind of like what we're kind of seeing pretty consistently across all of these different events." [11:27]
Notable Quote:
- Taylor: "I've never been bullish on DAOs and I never will be." [06:45]
2. DAO Models: Flawed by Design?
Timestamp: [07:21] – [15:26]
- DAOs are criticized for being slow, inefficient, and fundamentally lacking both accountability and enforceable rights for tokenholders.
- Luca's anecdote: Pudgy Penguin holders once pressured him to put funds into a DAO, which he found "insane."
- Theme: Most DAOs—according to the panel—have either failed, ossified, or failed to deliver on their promises.
3. The Broader "No Rights for Tokenholders" Phenomenon
Timestamp: [11:27] – [19:11]
- Multiple examples given: Axelar/Circle, Tensor, Pump.fun—where major teams sell IP or exit, leaving tokenholders with little or nothing.
- Key Point:
- The expectation that tokens grant claims on revenue/IP is almost always unsupported in fact or law.
- The lack of regulatory clarity (especially SEC inactivity/hostility) has led to a normless, murky legal environment.
- Taylor: "If token holders had expectations and believed certain things about the token and then got rugged... part of that is a consequence of people sort of dancing around and trying to avoid 100%." [16:22]
- Kane: "There are no norms... Every single token has their own weird, idiosyncratic, bizarre structure because everyone invents it from whole cloth every time." [19:11]
4. The Downside of Regulatory Arbitrage (and the SEC's Role)
Timestamp: [16:22] – [21:12]
- Panels blame regulatory uncertainty as both the source of perverse incentives and as the reason why tokenholder rights are ambiguous.
- Major point: "If everything's a scam, then, like, you get this false equivocation... If AAVE is a scam, then, like, shut the whole place down." [21:01]
5. Solana’s Fire Dancer and Client Diversity
Timestamp: [21:38] – [24:22]
- Solana’s new validator client, Fire Dancer, gets compared to Ethereum’s historical client diversity transition, but with unique issues around backwards compatibility and ecosystem incentives.
- Luca: "Fire Dancer on Solana is more of a pipe dream than I think people think." [24:22]
6. Crypto Mergers & Acquisitions: Who Gets Left Behind?
Timestamp: [24:23] – [33:23]
- Circle's Acquisition of Axelar’s Team: Used as a case study: Circle bought the team/IP, leaving the token/network behind, causing token price collapse and illuminating the lack of rights for tokenholders.
- Kane: "Spoiler. [Tokenholders] have no rights. None whatsoever." [28:26]
- Guy: Suggests exchanges (not protocols) are best positioned to enforce tokenholder rights, possibly through listing requirements.
- Luca: "If a team does this, it's like auto delisting..." [33:23]
7. Tokens as Speculative Mindshare vs. Real Assets
Timestamp: [33:23] – [39:04]
- Luca: "All tokens are a proxy of mind share... if you index them for anything else, I think it's a big fat, giant mistake." [33:23]
- Panel reflects on the paradox of tokens being speculative memes, versus any actual claim on cash flow or equity; expectations collapse quickly when the narrative shifts.
8. Founder Accountability, Scams, and Crypto's "Second Chances"
Timestamp: [39:32] – [44:52]
- Discussion: The infamous "Rushi" incident, and why repeatedly-burned founders (sometimes with clear ethical failings) keep getting millions in new capital.
- Taylor: "I just wish that when someone royally screws up and screws over everyone, that they wouldn't be able to come back... Instead, we just keep doing the same freaking broken record of these stupid scammers." [42:33]
- Luca: "You'd be surprised how stupid some of these [capital allocators] guys are. The more that I, like, maneuver around, I'm like, dude, you manage how much money... you’re no better than that guy… sitting in his mom's basement on Forex." [43:06]
9. Security Segment: Social Engineering and "Fake Zoom" Scams
Timestamp: [61:49] – [69:41]
- Taylor: Explains the rise of "fake Zoom" and Telegram social engineering attacks, especially targeting founders through taken-over accounts and social affinity.
- Taylor: "If someone tells you that it's unhackable, run so fast." [00:10], [40:53]
- Key advice: Regularly “terminate all [Telegram] sessions” and beware any stranger from your past wanting to hop on a Zoom call.
- Kane: "Your game is social engineering, right?" [64:03]
- Taylor: "The malware that they're doing is really focused on Macs. And it is... incredible. Horrible." [66:48]
10. DeFi Perps: ADL Mechanisms and the Need for Transparency
Timestamp: [52:49] – [59:08]
- Panel discusses forced liquidation ("Auto-Deleveraging" or ADL) events on DEXs and CEXs.
- Guy: Suggests innovations: let users opt-in for being at the top of the ADL queue, and improve transparency about insurance funds and risk waterfalls.
- Kane: Jokes about auctioning off ADL queue positions: "It wouldn't be crypto though if we didn't like auction that off. Who's building this? Come on, someone." [56:42]
11. Other Notable Segments
- Solana Firedancer’s technical promises and skepticism. [21:38]
- Leveraged Polymarket positions: Panelist consensus is "pure insanity." [69:41]
- MetaMask finally adds Bitcoin support; Taylor notes massive tech debt payoff at MetaMask. [71:56]
Notable Quotes & Moments
- Taylor: "DAOs have always been very... weird since very early days. ...To avoid any accountability and regulations and laws. And that has some downsides, it turns out." [05:52]
- Guy: "If you own the token, you don't actually, really, actually have the rights." [11:27]
- Kane: "There are no norms... Every single token has their own weird, idiosyncratic, bizarre structure because everyone invents it from whole cloth every time." [19:11]
- Luca: "All tokens are a proxy of mind share... if you index them for anything else, I think it's a big fat, giant mistake." [33:23]
- Taylor: "If someone tells you that it's unhackable, run so fast." [00:10], [40:53]
- Taylor: "I just wish that when someone royally screws up and screws over everyone, that they wouldn't be able to come back..." [42:33]
Key Timestamps for Major Topics
- 03:00: Introduction to AAVE governance drama
- 07:21: DAO inefficiency and panel skepticism
- 11:27: Tokenholders' real rights (or lack thereof)
- 21:38: Solana Fire Dancer and client diversity discussion
- 24:23: Axelar/Circle acquisition and fallout for tokenholders
- 33:23: Debating token rights versus mind share/speculation
- 39:32: The paradox of "investors" vs "traders" in tokens
- 42:33: Recurring founder drama and accountability
- 61:49: North Korean social engineering scams
- 69:41: Leveraged Polymarket: Dangers and opportunities
- 71:56: MetaMask adds Bitcoin support and tech debt reflection
Conclusion
This episode unpacks the persistent lack of enforceable tokenholder rights, repeated DAO governance messes, and the real-world consequences of poorly defined alignment in web3 structures. The wide-ranging, candid discussion hits on everything from protocol mergers to liquidations and rampant security threats, providing both a reality check and informed, occasionally darkly-humorous commentary on the state of the crypto ecosystem as 2025 closes out.