Unchained Ep. 912: Why Every Company Will Have a Stablecoin — and Why One L2 Isn’t Enough

Host: Laura Shin
Guests: Zach Abrams (CEO, Bridge), Kenny Lee (Co-Founder, Manta)
Date: October 1, 2025

Episode Overview

This packed episode covers two of the most transformative trends in crypto today:

• Part 1: Zach Abrams (Bridge, now Stripe) unveils Open Issuance, a platform to let any business launch its own stablecoin, challenging the current stablecoin oligopoly and reshaping payments infrastructure.
• Part 2: Kenny Lee (Manta) shares the project's pivot from being just another Layer 2 (L2) on Ethereum to developing application-specific solutions, and explains why the L2 “wars” are focusing on the wrong problem.

Both interviews offer a snapshot of where crypto infrastructure and adoption are heading, especially in payments, financial tooling, and network architecture.

Part 1: Zach Abrams on the Rise of Open Issuance and the Proliferation of Stablecoins

[00:00] Main Theme

• Stripe’s acquisition of Bridge accelerated the adoption curve for stablecoins.
• Bridge’s new “Open Issuance” lets any company — neobank, fintech, marketplace — issue their own programmable, interoperable stablecoin.
• Move away from dominance by two major issuers (USDC/Circle, USDT/Tether), toward specialization and abundance of stablecoins embedded across platforms and geographies.

Key Discussion Points & Insights

The Case for Many Stablecoins, Not Two

• Current Problem: Huge market share concentration — 85% stablecoins are from two issuers, controlling mint/burn, fee structure, networks, and use cases.
• Why Companies Want Their Own Stablecoin:
  • Control yield and economics (not handed to Circle/Tether).
  • Customize rewards, programmability, and network integration.
  • Remove dependencies on a single issuer/model.

  “The stablecoin space will only be 1/10 or 1/100 the size that it needs to be if it stays this way.” — Zach Abrams [06:11]

• Historical precedent: Payment processors like Stripe didn't monopolize; diversification reduced systemic risk and increased innovation.

Addressing Fragmentation

• Every platform will have its own “dollar” for efficiency, branding, and user benefits.
• Users won’t notice fragmentation:

  “We’re building an interoperability network … so if you’re sending a dollar from Wallet A to Wallet B, it’ll seamlessly convert, one-for-one.” — Zach Abrams [09:49]

• Most people will just see “digital dollars” regardless of issuer; branding will fade, usability will rise.

Solving Cross-Border & Payment Challenges

• Cross-border payments often penalized by burn fees set by legacy issuers chasing AUM, undermining stablecoin’s efficiency.
• Example: Zulu (customer) paid high exit fees converting stablecoins; with custom issuance, economics shift to optimize for business objectives, not fee extraction.

Memorable Quote:

“You don’t want to be building Zynga on Facebook, and then all of a sudden they change your interests and goodbye business.” — Zach Abrams [13:53]

Security, Compliance, and Recovery

• All reserves managed via blue-chip custodians (BlackRock, etc.).
• Smart contracts are standardized/audited, customized as needed.
• Platform allows for burning/recovering tokens in key-loss/misuse cases:

  “We had a Neobank … their customer lost the multisig key. Because it was their own stablecoin, we could remotely burn and recover those funds.” — Zach Abrams [20:00]

Stripe, Bridge, Privy, and Tempo: How It All Fits [24:23]

• Tempo: Decentralized blockchain, payment rail (incubated by Stripe, independent).
• Privy: Account/wallet layer.
• Bridge: Bank account layer; moves funds between fiat/blockchain, stablecoin issuance.
• Stripe: Delivers packaged solutions to its customer base, abstracts complexities.

Limitations of Current L1/L2 Infrastructure and the Need for Payment-Specific Chains [27:57]

• Solana wallet “priming” (costly, complex at scale); TPS limitations.
• Stripe’s payments scale requires magnitude greater TPS than even top blockchains.
• Tempo blockchain: Focused on payments, solves for scale, gas abstraction (can pay gas in any stablecoin).

On restricting use-cases:

“It’s going to be a blockchain that’s decentralized, people can build whatever they want. … But that’s not the problem we’re focusing on.” — Zach Abrams [31:19]

What’s Next: The Future of Stablecoins and Payments [33:12]

• Regulatory clarity in 2025 has dramatically boosted fintech/bank interest in issuing stablecoins.
• Predicted rapid growth: up to 10-20% of all money movement going through tokenized rails within 1–3 years.
• Stablecoins will become core infrastructure, operating invisibly.
• Real-world examples:
  • Freelancers in unstable economies picking stablecoins over local currency.
  • African merchants finally able to accept global payments.
  • Immediate settlement for merchants (vs. T+2 days), reducing working capital friction.

Memorable Quote:

“We’ve long believed tokenized money is just going to be core global money movement infrastructure.” — Zach Abrams [36:30]

On Stablecoin-Backed Credit Cards and USDB [43:25; 45:47]

• Built on demand from developers enabling real-world spend of stablecoins before native acceptance is widespread.
• USDB is Bridge’s template stablecoin for new customers, “training wheels” for custom issuance.

Shopify, MetaMask & Partnerships [57:21]

• Shopify: Payment settlements into unstable/difficult fiat markets via stablecoins.
• M0/MetaMask MUSD: M0 issues the contract; Bridge manages funds/compliance.
• “Not competitors”—just different market segments, different business models.

Stablecoins and AI: The Next Money Movement Paradigm [62:47]

• AI agents need native, programmable, non-human-controlled money rails—fiat cannot serve them.
• Early pilots: Cloudflare is issuing a stablecoin for AI-powered web crawling.
• Industry is still searching for mass-scale use cases, but programmable money fits natively with AI.

Selected Timestamps & Notable Quotes

• [06:11] “The stablecoin space will only be 1/10 or 1/100 the size that it needs to be if it stays this way.” — Zach Abrams
• [09:49] “We’re building an interoperability network … so if you’re sending a dollar from Wallet A to Wallet B, it’ll seamlessly convert, one-for-one.”
• [13:53] “You don’t want to be building Zynga on Facebook, and then all of a sudden they change your interests and goodbye business.”
• [20:00] “We had a Neobank … their customer lost the multisig key. Because it was their own stablecoin, we could remotely burn and recover those funds.”
• [36:30] “We’ve long believed tokenized money is just going to be core global money movement infrastructure.”

Part 2: Kenny Lee on Manta’s Pivot Beyond L2 Wars

[66:26] Main Theme

• L2s as “infrastructure commodity”; not enough users, too many chains.
• Manta pivots from pure Layer 2 to building user-facing applications—growth will come from new use cases, not just more/faster blockspace.

Key Discussion Points & Insights

The Evolution of L2 Infrastructure [68:04]

• Manta differentiated at launch by being first L2 to use Celestia for data availability, slashing gas and boosting throughput.
• Now: Market flooded (“500 L2s”), user numbers lag real-world web apps by orders of magnitude.
• Infrastructure innovation alone isn’t enough; true value is in applications that attract users.

  “We're starting to see a lot of commoditization in the space … just fighting for the crumbs.” — Kenny Lee [70:51]

The Real L2 Value Proposition: Scalability, Not Network Effects [72:09]

• Draws parallels to cloud computing: real-world apps need the ability to “scale out horizontally.”
• Ethereum’s trilemma means L2s fill the scalability gap, but single L2s can’t hit Web2-scale user numbers.
• Envisions a future where apps scale by spinning up ephemeral, application-specific L2s.

On the nature of L2s:

“The differentiation between L2s doesn’t really make sense … it's like virtual machines in the cloud — you just spin up more to handle scale.” — Kenny Lee [75:13]

L2 Survival and Strategies: Verticalization vs. Apps [81:53]

• L2s will consolidate; only a handful will survive.
• Some are “verticalizing” (DeFi, Entertainment, RWA); others shift to being app-specific.
• Manta’s history of pivoting: L1 → L2 → Now, direct-to-consumer application focus.

On Founder Responsibility and Incentives [85:44]

• Crypto history has too many “cash-out” founders with tokens but no product-market fit.

• Genuine teams are seeking to truly solve user needs/infrastructure, not just launch tokens.

  “A technology with no product market fit is ultimately, you know, a great science experiment. … For us, simply trying to be an L2 is no longer enough.” — Kenny Lee [83:48]

• Token standards for “utility” have fallen; path forward is to tie tokens to real revenue/buybacks, maturity signals for the industry.

Hints at Manta's New Direction [90:10]

• Eyeing institutional adoption and building new-age financial tooling beyond what traditional services offer.
• Applications/services for institutions, direct value to customers.

Selected Timestamps & Notable Quotes

• [70:51] “It’s frankly extremely mercenary. … There’s just not enough users to go around. So you’re fighting for the crumbs.”
• [75:13] “The differentiation between L2s doesn’t really make sense … it's like virtual machines in the cloud — you just spin up more to handle scale.”
• [83:48] “A technology with no product market fit is ultimately, you know, a great science experiment. … For us, simply trying to be an L2 is no longer enough.”

Memorable Moments & Quotes (Across Both Segments)

• On stablecoin adoption:

  “Imagine every consumer deposit is earning 3% ... a lot of economic surplus is delivered back to consumers.” — Zach Abrams [39:48]

• On the future of payments:

  “Imagine after every single swipe of a card, every single payment, the money lands in your bank account immediately.” — Zach Abrams [41:29]

• On building in crypto:

  “It depends on what you came into the space to do. … It’s a bigger challenge and responsibility.” — Kenny Lee [87:01]

Segment Timeline

• [00:04] – [66:26] Zach Abrams: Stablecoins, Open Issuance, Stripe/Bridge Ecosystem
  • Strategic vision for programmable money
  • Infrastructure, compliance, and security
  • Partnerships, competitive landscape, practical use-cases
  • Stablecoins + AI: the next leap
• [66:26] – [91:17] Kenny Lee: Manta’s Pivot and the Commoditization of L2s
  • Why infrastructure is a commodity, not a moat
  • L2s' scaling shortcomings for consumer-scale adoption
  • The shift: from blockspace to user acquisition via apps
  • Institutional innovation and the next act for Manta

Takeaways / TL;DR

• The era of two stablecoin issuers is ending: infrastructure like Bridge/Open Issuance and regulatory clarity are enabling any business to issue customized, compliant stablecoins.
• Users will barely notice, as interoperability networks will abstract away “fragmentation” and branding.
• Real-world impacts are already visible in remittances, SMB merchant operations, and global payouts.
• L2s are no longer differentiated by tech alone; adoption will hinge on real applications, not more blockspace.
• Manta’s pivot reflects the maturing crypto landscape — more focus on direct value to users and institutions, less on winning the “L2 wars.”
• The interplay between programmable money and AI will spawn new architectures and use cases in the coming decade.