A (3:02)

Yeah, I think first of all I am super bullish that hyperliquid is actually doing such a public auction. I think it's a fantastic opportunity not only to bring attention but bring the best deals out to the hyper liquid community. It is also a fantastic way to educate the community on what is the role of a stablecoin in an ecosystem. I think fundamentally I am super bullish because I think crypto in our industry is all about this. Intermediary and stablecoin issuer used to be serving as a intermediary in an ecosystem but now we're seeing that protocol are owning the stablecoin narrative again and revenue or yield are being redistributed back to the community from our end. I think we saw this trend very much earlier on. Our goal is to build an ecosystem center around economic model that brings a very sustainable protocol. And obviously another goal in the beginning was I was at ConsenSys for a long time. I've seen many different protocols launching from zero to one and every time I go to a new ecosystem I'm trying to bridge asset or trade and I will see like 10 different representation of stablecoin. I just don't know which one to use. And obviously you go with the big ones.

C (4:26)

Right?

A (4:27)

But the big ones, the yield doesn't go to the ecosystem. So I think partly it was because I was trying to solve the user pain point. When you go to an ecosystem, there is one stablecoin that is aligned with the community interest, it's backed by the community. So that was the original purpose of us issuing our own stablecoin. But I think Hyper Liquid definitely, you know, took it to like 10x. Much bigger and better than us.

C (4:52)

Yeah. Well, I'd be curious if you could just relay that story again about how this competition over USDH affected your announcement.

A (5:02)

Yeah, it wasn't affecting. I mean we were supposed to announce it in the middle of the week, but then we saw the USCH announce, well, the governance forum and we follow up very closely and then we realized that okay, you know what, instead of announcing in the middle of the week because everybody is following usdh, we should just announce ours a little bit earlier so we Worked over the weekend.

C (5:28)

Okay, yeah, yeah. Well, you know, clearly I think that was the right move because that news did break through on Monday. But yeah, by, by the middle of the week the competition over USDH kind of had broken through to a fever pitch. So the other thing that's been really interesting to watch is all these different arguments that have been made in public over, you know, which team should win and you know, there's been a lot of different kind of factors that people have been calling out about, you know, what, what they think are more important than others. When your team was trying to decide which team to go with for usdm, what factors did you consider and how did you eventually make your choice?

A (6:12)

Yeah, the analogy I often think about doing business development in crypto is always it's like a pick, it's like early stage investing. The fundamental thesis and ethos and how we think about just business development is picking the right team, whether they are founders or the team within a larger company. And then the reason is that if the founder and team really value your business and value the partnership, then they can actually weather all of the difficulties. I saw that a lot of people were worried about like compliance. Obviously it was a reason for us. But if you look at Genius act, it's going to take months for things to play out and my job is to pick a team that's able to weather the compliance storm with us. Another factor would be like adoption of the stablecoin. My job is to make sure that my partner is able to bring new use cases, is able to be resilient and strong when you know, things are not going well. And then I think lastly would be a team that really value our own ecosystem, like understand what Mega does. I think in the case of hyper liquid. Right. We both saw the announcement this morning from Guy. I think the chance of native markets winning is perhaps really high. I think here the hyper liquid community are valuing that. Okay, we're going to choose an early stage company even though they have no track record, but we believe that they're going to do the best thing for us even though they're not giving 100% yield back to the community. Right. But their goal is really growth. The USDH adoption.

C (7:58)

Yeah.

B (7:59)

And just for people.

C (7:59)

So I know this is going to go out Friday, but on Thursday at the time we're recording, it looks like native markets has a 93.5% chance of winning the USDH ticker on polymarket. So you know, I kind of also looked there, there's a little like dashboard where you can look at how the race is going and yeah, it does look like all. You know, I wouldn't say all but like the vast majority of the validators that have a large stake are for native markets. But I actually wanted to ask about that. Is it just so like when I was looking at it, I was like, well, you know, people can move their stake. Is it just that they haven't moved their stake or is it just that people think the whales are going to, you know, not change their stake? And so like, even if everyday people switch their stake, it doesn't matter or like what do you think?

A (8:50)

I can only guess. I feel like people speculate on this and I think part of it is a self fulfilling prophecy. But I do think this idea of backing a native protocol makes sense to everyone and it kind of became a consensus.

C (9:08)

Oh, okay. Well, earlier in the week, I don't know if I would say that everybody thought, but okay, but before we, before we even get into all that, I did want to ask like, so you guys chose Athena. Why did you choose Athena?

A (9:21)

Yeah, so I mean Athena has a track record of building a stablecoin that is wildly successful. But second, I would say like, you know, we follow our philosophy. I think working with the Athena team with Guy has been really a pleasure. They were able to solve a lot of our compliance issues. So we were actually thinking about this many months ago. This was before Genius act, before anyone even thought about it. So the amount of money and time we spent on legal was insane. And obviously a Guy came and just sorted a lot of things off our shoulder and we are focusing on launching a chain. Our job is in launching stablecoin, so that's a primary reason. We've talked to other partners as well and everyone has been, I would say, amazing. I have nothing against them. To us it's a matter of fit. It's a matter of just partnering with someone we really believe in.

C (10:19)

Well, in a moment we are going to talk a little bit more about what exactly is happening with usch.

B (10:24)

But first, take the courage for the.

C (10:25)

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B (10:27)

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C (11:17)

Back to my conversation with Shuyao. So you mentioned earlier about how people were valuing this hyper liquid aligned characteristic. Explain, you know what that means when people say that, what are they really saying?

A (11:32)

Do you mean the characteristics of the different framework and criteria or like, like.

C (11:38)

What does that mean in specifics? Like what does it mean to be hyper liquid aligned? Like, why would somebody who's more like Apaches or Athena or whatever, some of those other teams that were not not being described that way, like why? Like what is the difference?

A (11:52)

This is why I love your podcast by the way. You're very like, don't throw the word alignment to me. Be specific. So my mentor model has been like, if hyperliquid goes down, what will this stablecoin partner do? If this stablecoin partner have other business, they're going to abandon hyperliquid and go do something else that's going to support their business. I think a super hyper liquid aligned team would stay again weathering the storm along with the core team because this is their core battleground. Like they have to win. I think that's where like the spirits of alignment fundamentally comes from. Like, this is our bet.

C (12:29)

Oh, interesting. Sort of like we're already a success in other areas so we can cut our losses if this doesn't work out. Whereas like for something like a native markets, which is, I think the proposal that has been most, you know, frequently called hyper liquid aligned, they don't have anything else. It's like sink or swim kind of situation.

A (12:53)

That is my interpretation of alignment. I think that's why people are saying, you know, Homegirl is the most bullish because they can't run away. There's nothing else out there.

C (13:04)

Okay, well, so that's just one of the, you know, more common argument points that we've seen this week and I wondered if you could talk about like some of the other, you know, critiques or the way people are kind of prioritizing different characteristics. Like as you're looking at that, do you feel like there's certain ways that people are thinking about this that's like a little bit smarter or like not as smart? Like what are some of the different arguments that you've seen that kind of caught your attention as like maybe how people are not necessarily, you know, because like the people in the public, they're not building. So just in conversation they might not be thinking about it the way that like a builder would.

A (13:45)

There are a few actually stood out to me and actually contribute to how as an observer I look at this, which again makes me even more bullish on Hyper Liquid. I guess I think one thing jumped out to me was I think Paxos offering, they do have unfair advantage in web 2 in tri 5 that I think no one else can offer. I think that's really attractive. And I think the second one was I think the lawyer at Varian Farm tweeted out about the compliance. It's not about compliance today, it's really about complying the future. Which I thought was like a genius argument actually how we thought about picking a partner as well. And then I think the last one was I forgot whom. I think the Athena argument has always been like, if the rate goes down, then you kind of want a more yield bearing stablecoin. And I think that was clever. The way I really think about stablecoin is there are two types of stablecoin users. One is the yield sensitive ones. Whatever you do, you have a risk appetite. That trading pair, everything has to be leveraged and there has to be something that's juicier than the 5% T bill. And the other part is the yield agnostic one. I think for an ecosystem you've got to have both. And it seems like the status quo is for the yield barrel and you do have Athena, you would have the newer ones, such as CAP protocol. For the yield agnostic one you have USDC, which is already big on hyperliquid. I assume USDT or USDT0 might come to hyperliquid as well. Big fan of the USDT team. We work with them as well. And then usdh. So yeah, that's how I see the whole landscape.

C (15:37)

Okay, so then I did want to also ask, just like that moment when you saw that Athena withdrew, what did you think of that? Like, did you think that was a smart move on their part? Like, why not just wait and see what happens over the next few days? Or yeah. Why do you think they decided to withdraw?

A (15:57)

I could only guess. I think, you know, when you're a founder, every day you wake up, you're like, I have like 100 things to do and I need to prioritize. I think I'm just guessing in the Athena team's head is like, okay, I probably have other priority that I should work on. Not sure about the hyper liquid situation, given where the stakers are staking the likely outcome of the vote and I should just like cut the loss and focus on something else that's more important. But also, I thought that post was genius because it gets attention and then everyone actually can see if Athena doesn't win the proposal, what else they're going to do in the Hyper Liquid ecosystem. So all in all, I think it's a winning post.

C (16:46)

Yeah. I mean, they basically said we already have these other tickers anyway, so we're going to go ahead and do everything that we said we would do in the proposal, but with a different ticker. Yeah. Because I think the line that got me was something like, what was it like saving 5 basis points on yield that's going to be going down anyway. Meaning if it's from the Treasuries, then yeah. So I was like, okay, yeah, that's a good point.

B (17:12)

All right.

C (17:12)

Oh. Huh.

A (17:13)

No, I was going to say exactly that they are catering toward the yield sensitive audience.

C (17:18)

Yeah, exactly. All right. So I just, I just also wanted to ask, like, about this competition. Like, do you feel like we're going to be seeing more of this kind of public, you know, RFP type situation with daos, or do you feel like we won't? Because, you know, there has been controversy and I do see still like some, you know, drama and intrigue on my timeline, people accusing each other of this and that, like this team was trying to bribe that team. And anyway, as we saw also Haseeb Qureshi of Dragonfly tweeted that, you know, he was already hearing well before the voting started that a bunch of the top validators were going to go for native markets and he felt like it was sort of rigged from the start. And yeah, I retweeted that and I got a lot of pushback and Haseeb got a lot of criticism. So, yeah, I'm curious, do you feel like this is overall been good for the community and like, points to a future trend, or do you feel like people after watching this are going to be like, we're, we're definitely not going to do anything in the public.

A (18:23)

So, I mean, what Hyper Liquid did is very hyper liquid coded and I doubt, I doubt a lot of other protocol can replicate. I think they just have insane vision and it's almost like a style and attitude in how they run their ecosystem. I think the public pushback is very stereotypical crypto. I don't know. You and I have been in this industry for a long time. People just like catch on this controversial Stuff. And honestly, this industry has been quiet in the last few months, so I don't know, I just saw people enjoy this. But I, Yeah, I remain. I'm not certain how many teams will replicate such a, you know, public governance show.

C (19:07)

Okay. Yeah, it's been, it's been interesting because.

B (19:11)

It'S captured so much attention, which is.

C (19:12)

Positive, but then there's just been, yeah, a lot of drama.

A (19:16)

Well, I would add one more thing is I, I think I, I encourage more protocols to actually do open governance. I think this is what crypto was designed for in 2017 and people should do it, but I just think it's risky for a lot of teams.

C (19:32)

Yeah, well, yeah, basically there's just been this interesting trend with the daos where it just feels like a lot of them are, are kind of pausing or just closing and even like, scroll on Thursday also announced that they're. I, I don't remember the specifics of the wording, but yeah, they're, you know, not going to be as active in some fashion. And so, like earlier before, like, basically when I recorded Wednesday with Agora and Paxos, we were like, oh, this has revived daos. And now I'm like, maybe not, but anyway, so I wanted to ask you, do you feel like this concept of this protocol, native stablecoin, do you feel like those stablecoins will always win? Or do you feel like now that we've had so many teams that have proposed stablecoins on hyperliquid, that this will just be an ecosystem that is full of many stablecoins? Like, how do you feel that competition will play out once these are all launched?

A (20:39)

I think the one that gives the most back to token holder and community participants will ultimately win. I think stablecoin as a service, as a business, is perhaps not differentiated. So you have to customize your offering based on what that ecosystem is known for and what's important to. To that ecosystem. You know, in hyper liquid is always the crypto native. I. I listened to your pod with Paxos and Agora. They kept mentioning, you know, we're here to supercharge a crypto native ecosystem. So, yeah, I do not see many stablecoin in successful ecosystem. I think they converge into the two category I mentioned, yield sensitive and yield agnostic.

C (21:22)

Okay. And then what do you think all of this means for tether and circle on hyperliquid? Like, do you feel like they'll eventually be pushed out in some way? Or what do you see happening to these incumbents?

A (21:36)

Unlikely in the near or medium term. I think they will continue to be there. I think they're adapting as well. I think before it's incredibly expensive and difficult to get this incumbent and I think now they're finding new solutions to be or present on different ecosystems. So I think the how to say the Vato is about to start and I think fundamentally going back to what I said in the beginning, it is such a bullish news for the ecosystem because what is happening is competition is driving more economic back to the user and developer. So I think that's also why this news is so controversial. It's so significant and it's such a demonstration of, I think just next step, what the protocol is really about. It's about bringing economic value back to their users.

C (22:28)

Okay. All right. Well it's been a pleasure having you on Unchained.

A (22:32)

Thank you Lara.

C (22:33)

Don't forget, next up is the weekly recap. Stick around for this week in Crypto after this short break.

B (22:39)

Thanks for tuning in to the weekly news recap. Let's begin. BlackRock weighs tokenizing E TFs for 24. 7 trading BlackRock, the world's largest asset manager, is exploring how to bring exchange traded funds onto blockchain networks. According to people familiar with the effort cited by Bloomberg, the initiative would involve creating tokenized versions of funds tied to real world assets, such as equities subject to regulatory approval. Tokenized ETFs could expand trading beyond Wall Street's regular hours, widen international access and even allow shares to be used as collateral within crypto markets. The move follows BlackRock's successful launch of its Spot Bitcoin ETF and the tokenized money market fund BITL, which has grown past $2 billion in assets. Chief Executive Larry Fink has repeatedly said every financial asset can be tokenized, highlighting the firm's long term vision. While tokenized assets remain a small market compared with the multitrillion dollar ETF industry, BlackRock's interest signals growing momentum Nasdaq Seeks SEC Approval to List Tokenized Stocks NASDAQ has filed a proposal with the U.S. securities and Exchange Commission to allow trading of tokenized shares on its exchange, a step that could mark the first time blockchain based equities appear on a US Regulated market. The plan would let investors choose between traditional and tokenized settlement while preserving the same shareholder rights as underlying stocks. In its filing, NASDAQ said tokenized assets would carry the same execution priority as conventional shares and be clearly labeled for clearing through the Depository Trust Company Chief Financial Officer Sarah Youngwood said at a recent industry conference. The solution leverages the current infrastructure and market structure. The initiative arrives as regulators in Washington consider broader rule changes for digital assets. Experts caution integration with the DTCC's massive settlement system could prove costly and complex. But others view the proposal as a breakthrough that could bring blockchain directly into Wall Street's core plumbing. Adkins presses on chain capital raising without legal uncertainty U.S. securities and exchange Commission Chairman Paul Adkins used a keynote at the OECD in Paris to urge clearer rules for blockchain finance. He said entrepreneurs and investors should be able to raise capital on chain without endless legal uncertainty, while reaffirming that most tokens fall outside securities law. The remarks come under the SEC's Project Crypto initiative, which seeks to modernize regulations so trading, lending and staking can operate under a single framework with updated custody rules. Atkins described the approach as offering only the minimum effective dose of regulation needed to protect investors, a shift from the enforcement heavy policies of prior years. The SEC and Commodity Futures Trading Commission will hold a joint roundtable later this month to explore how products like perpetual contracts and decentralized finance could return to U.S. markets. Forward Industries raises $1.65 billion for Solana Treasury Industries has closed a $1.65 billion private placement to create what it calls the largest Solana focused corporate treasury to date. The Nasdaq listed firm secured commitments from Galaxy, Digital, Jump, Crypto and Multicoin Capital, among others. Shares of Forward surged as much as 128% in pre market trading, while Solana's Sol token gained over 2%. The company said the funds will be used to anchor its balance sheet in Sol and participate actively in Solana's decentralized finance markets. Multicoin co founder Kyle Simani has been appointed chairman of the board, with executives from Galaxy and Jump joining as observers. The move positions forward alongside other firms building Solana Treasuries including Upexi and Sharps Technology. Commenting on the momentum, Bitwise CIO Matt Huging noted that all the ingredients are there for an epic end of year run for Solana, pointing to treasury accumulation and pending exchange traded product filings as catalysts for what he called Solana season. In related news, the Avalanche foundation entered late stage talks to raise $1 billion through two US based investment vehicles that would use the capital to buy discounted tokens directly from the foundation. Mex faces $170 million civil attack allegations Decentralized derivatives platform Mex Finance is under scrutiny after blockchain analytics firm Bubble Maps alleged a single entity exploited its Token AirDrop for roughly $170 million. Investigators flagged about 100 wallets, all created around the same time and funded through OKEx, and that together claimed nearly 10 million MYX tokens. Bubble Maps called the incident the biggest airdrop sybil of all time. The claims follow Myx's token soaring more than 1,000% in two days, sparking a short squeeze that liquidated $40 million in positions. In its response, the team said rewards were tied to genuine trading activity and liquidity provision, though it acknowledged allowing high volume users to change addresses before launch. From the perspective of focusing on trading itself, we did not impose specific prohibitions on such requests, the team stated. Skrull DAO halts governance after leadership resignations the decentralized community behind the Ethereum layer 2 scroll has paused its governance process following several high level departures. Delegate Olympio disclosed on X that DAO leader Eugene resigned earlier this week, with co founder Haichen Shen confirming the team is redesigning governance. The decision has sparked questions about the status of ongoing proposals, including a Treasury management plan. They are redesigning governance, but the pathway forward is unclear, olympio noted, adding that communication on next steps has been limited. Skrull contributor Raza Zaidi emphasized that the move should be seen as a temporary pause rather than a permanent dismantling of governance. For now, active proposals remain visible, but their execution is uncertain. The dao, which launched alongside its native token scr, operates in tandem with the Skrull foundation and a Security Council Global Crypto users warned after massive supply chain hack Millions of crypto users were on alert this week after hackers injected malware into widely used JavaScript packages downloaded billions of times each week. The attack began when a developer was tricked by phishing emails, giving attackers access to publish tainted code that could secretly swap wallet addresses and redirect funds across major blockchains including Bitcoin, Ethereum and Solana. Security experts initially urged users to halt transactions, warning the compromise could be catastrophic. But implementation errors exposed the malware quickly, causing automated builds to fail and limiting losses on chain. Data shows attackers netted less than $505 before being shut down. Ledger's chief technology officer Charles Guillaume called the outcome fortunate, while cautioning that supply chain attacks remain a serious threat. Linea airdrop marred by outages as token slides Consensus Ethereum layer 2 Network Linea launched its Linea token this week, but the rollout was hampered by technical issues ahead of the token generation event. Block production on the mainnet paused for about 45 minutes due to sequencer performance problems, later described as a partial outage that lasted nearly 10 hours. While 749,000 wallets were eligible to claim 9.36 billion tokens, many users reported failed transactions and rising gas fees. By contrast, Binance recipients accessed their allocations instantly, prompting criticism from community members. Linea head Declan Fox said the network was simply overwhelmed, noting, once you get punched in the ring, you need to react well, which we did. After the bumpy debut, Linea tokens lost more than 20% from their peak. Seeking to calm concerns, Consensys founder Joseph Lubin suggested future rewards for long term holders, hinting that additional distributions from Consensys or Metamask linked projects could be directed to those who keep Linea tokens on hand. Unchained is produced by Laura Shin, with help from Matt Pilchard, Juan Aranovic, Margaret Curia, and Pam Majumdar. The weekly recap was written by Juan Aranovic and edited by Stephen Ehrlich. Thanks for listen.