← The Expert Witness from Uncover
The Expert Witness from Uncover
Crime Story: Allison Mack finally speaks out about NXIVM cult
00:37:01
<p>Natalie Robehmed is the first journalist Allison Mack agreed to speak to, on the record, since her release from prison. Allison spent over a decade in NXIVM, the now infamous sex cult where some members were branded with leader Keith Raniere’s initials. She joined the group as a Hollywood actress known for her role on the hit TV show Smallville and eventually climbed the ranks, using her starlet status to recruit other women into the cult.</p><p><br></p><p>In this episode of Crime Story, Natalie Robehmed discusses the new season of Uncover: Allison after NXIVM, including what it was like to finally hear from Allison, the lies she told to protect Keith, and how she became both victim and perpetrator of his sinister ploys.</p><p><br></p><p>You can listen to more incredible tales of true crime every week on Crime Story. Find more Crime Story episodes in your podcast app, or here: <a href="https://link.mgln.ai/CSxAfterNXIVM" rel="noopener noreferrer" target="_blank">https://link.mgl...
Loading summary
Transcript68 lines
- [00:00]
A
If you want to hear daily news that doesn't hurt your soul and might even be good for your soul, check out as It Happens. I'm Chris Howden.
- [00:07]
B
And I'm Niel Kocal. Every day we reach people at the center of the most extraordinary stories, like the doctor who restored a patient's eyesight.
- [00:15]
A
With a tooth, or a musician in an orchestra that plays instruments made out of vegetables.
- [00:20]
B
Take the scenic route through the day's news with as It Happens and you can find us wherever you get your podcasts. This is a CBC podcast. Hi, it's Natalie. I want to give a big thank you for the response we've gotten to this podcast so far from all of us at Campside Media and cbc. Thanks so much for listening. If you've already listened to all episodes of Allison after nxivm, we thought you might enjoy a behind the scenes conversation I recently had on a podcast called Crime Story. I was interviewed by Kathleen Goldhar, who was also the lead producer on CBC's first season of Uncover back in 2018, escaping NXIVM. So yeah, we had a lot to catch up on. In many ways, it felt like a full circle moment to discuss the case with Kathleen. I told her about the day I met Allison Mack and how I went on to gain her trust. And Kathleen told me about what it was like being in the courtroom for Keith Ranieri's trial. I suggest you keep listening to hear more and afterwards consider checking out other episodes in the Crime Story feed. A great place to start is Kathleen's conversation with Amanda Knox. It's linked in the show notes. I think you'll like it. Now onto my interview with Kathleen.
- [01:41]
A
The following episode contains difficult subject matter, including references to sexual assault. Please take care.
- [01:50]
B
There was something specific that she said to me where she sort of made some joke about having always been a type a person wanting to be the best student, and that led her to wanting to be the best cult member.
- [02:05]
A
My entry into the world of podcasting came with a bit of a bang. Everything about my professional life changed the day that my friend and colleague Josh Blocked walked into my office and told me that a friend of his had just left the cult. And not only that, but she had been branded with the leader's initials. That conversation became the podcast Escaping nxivm. It was the first real in depth look into the cult, how it was run, how their philosophy locked people in, and who their leader, Keith Ranieri really was. But it certainly didn't answer every question. And now a new podcast helps fill in a bunch of those blanks. It's called Alison after nxivm, and it brings us the story of one of the cult's most infamous members, Allison Mack, a former TV star turned Maine recruiter whose work within NXIVM landed her in prison. Natalie Robomed is the host of Allison After Nexium, and she joins us now. I'm Kathleen Goldar, and this is Crime Story. Natalie, welcome to the program.
- [03:21]
B
Thank you for having me.
- [03:23]
A
I could not wait to talk to you. When I heard months ago that you got Allison Mack, I was like, oh, wow, I cannot wait, wait to hear this. There was so much missing by not being able to hear from her. Obviously we tried, along with so many other people. But while we were doing the podcast, it was the beginning of the trial and Keith went to prison. And actually by the time our podcast went out, Allison still hadn't even been convicted or sent to prison at all yet. So I just think it's so amazing that you got her and that we get to hear from her. People who don't know who she is, tell me who Alison Mack is.
- [04:01]
B
Yeah, so I think pre nxivm, Alison Mack was best known as the actress from Smallville, which was a TV show that ran for many, many seasons. And she kind of played this sort of like perky, nerdy girl next door character within it. And she sort of blonde hair, very bright eyed, bushy tailed, sort of young actress. I think that's what people knew her for. And then within NXIVM, I mean, she spent 12 in NXIVM, which we'll obviously get to talking about. But I think within nxivm, she sort of became most famous for sort of being a very public face of it and also for helping recruit a lot of other women into it, specifically into dos, which was the kind of women's only sorority where a lot of the really more nefarious stuff happened within nxivm.
- [04:57]
A
And I think I'd like to. I. I'm sure there are some people which blows my mind, but they haven't listened to Escaping Nexium or they don't know Nexium. But people listening might not know exactly what Nexium is, but I think I'd like to learn that through Allison's entry into it. So when did Allison first find out about nxivm and what was it that appealed to her?
- [05:18]
B
Yeah, so according to Allison, actually she first learned about NXIVM when she was kind of living in Vancouver, working as an actress, filming which was filmed in Vancouver. And she actually says that she heard about Nexium from Kristen Kruke, who's another Canadian actress who was her co star in Smallville, but who she met at that, at that seminar was Nancy Salzman, who is very important in the organization. She's known as Prefect. She's essentially the second in command to Keith Ranieri, who is the main guy behind Nexium and behind the so called curriculum, because of course, Nexium, whilst it was a self help group, they claimed to have so called technology and all this sorts of stuff to essentially make your life better. And all you had to do was come here and pay a couple thousand dollars and you would kind of learn how to be happier. So that's what Allison did. And she said that, you know, at that first weekend seminar that she did, she met Nancy Salzman. She met Nancy Salzman's daughter, Lauren Salzman, who actually is also featured in this podcast. Allison, after Nexium, speaking for the, the first time, and after it, she went back on a private jet, Claire Bronfman's private jet to Albany. Now, Claire Bronfman is the Seagram's heir, thought to be the main funder of Nexium, who estimates range, but she may have funneled as much as $100 million into Nexium. And so after this first weekend, you know, they're hanging out with Nancy and some of the other people and Nancy kind of says something to the effect of like, does anybody want to come back to Albany? We've got a spare. We've got a spare seat on our private jet. And Alison goes, oh my God, yeah, like I don't have to shoot for another however many days, like, let me go.
- [07:01]
A
So she gets on this, be clear, Albany's with the headquarters and it's where Keith lives and is.
- [07:06]
B
Exactly. So yes, Albany is sort of the nexus of nxivm, this kind of, sort of not that impressive city in upstate New York. And actually a lot, a lot of the Nexium people lived in kind of these suburbs outside called Clifton park. And Allison's with these people. And she was like, whoa, I think I may have finally found the answer to the kind of ennui I feel. And then she gets to Albany.
- [07:32]
A
Well, I want to talk about that because I know Sarah Edmondson, who was our sort of main protagonist on escaping nxivm. Her and one other person were sort of the leaders of this NXIVM in Vancouver. And I remember Sarah telling us that there was sort of this epiphany that happens, where they sort of bring you to this place where all of a sudden it feels like everything has opened up, and you kind of all of a sudden see the possibility of the kind of self help and the kind of personal growth you're going to get in this group. Did Allison talk to you about that? Did she explain to you sort of that moment that might have moved her from being like, well, this might be something to like, I found my thing.
- [08:11]
B
Yeah. So I think for Allison, that came in the form of witnessing an ex. An Em. What's called an Em in Nexium means exploration of meaning. And it's sort of similar to kind of an audit in Scientology or something like that. It's essentially a very intense kind of focused almost therapy session where at the end of it, the person is just sort of Their realization of their problem is completely blown open, and it just seems like a panacea to sort of everything. And so Allison does say that she kind of witnessed an Em, I think, done by Nancy, and that that was very powerful to her. One of the things I really wanted to do in this podcast was sort of go deeper on this question of, like, how does somebody who ostensibly has it all get sucked into a cult? You know, like, Allison is. She's smart, she was rich, she was beautiful and young. How did she end up in this terrible situation doing terrible things? And, yeah, I mean, I think the answer is that it's like a very long and complicated process. But also, like, as an actress, as a woman, as so many people are, she was searching for meaning and, like, searching for purpose in her life where she just kind of felt this emptiness. And it's sort of, you know, the. The real downside of kind of being a seeker and, like, where that can lead you.
- [09:36]
A
Yeah. When does she meet Keith?
- [09:40]
B
She actually meets Keith for the very first time at the volleyball courts. The infamous volleyball courts. So for those who don't know anything about nxivm, Keith was a big fan of volleyball, but also, you know, as part of his mystique, he didn't keep regular hours like a regular person, meaning he seemed to sort of sleep very little at night and stay up very late. So all of these nxivm followers would go and play volleyball with Keith at, like, midnight, 1:00am, 2:00am in the morning. So as Alison lands in Albany, she gets driven, taken to Nancy Salzman's house. And somewhere past midnight, a woman comes and picks her up in a BMW and she goes to the volleyball courts. And, you know, I think in her recollection, she's made to sort of wait a little bit. And then Keith comes over and says, oh, you know, nice to meet you. And, you know, she says, hi. And then he goes, do you have a question for me? And Allison goes, question? Like, nobody, nobody told me I needed to prepare a question. And he sort of said, oh, you know, some people like to ask me a question. And she was like, you know, I just thought I would come and smile and cheer you on. And he kind of goes, oh, is that how you do life? Which sort of immediately puts her on the back foot where she's like, oh, I've, I've messed up. Like, I, I, I didn't do this. And she, you know, she gets back in the car, she goes home, and she's like, I didn't know I was supposed to prepare a question. Alison is a very kind of type A overachiever, sort of likes to be the best type person. And the woman driving the car said, well, you know, Keith is the smartest man in the world, which was part of his whole thing at the time. Smartest, most ethical man. He's celibate. You know, some people like to ask him a question. And so Allison goes, you know what? Like, I, I, I do have a question. Like, let's go back. And so she goes back and she's made to wait until Keith finishes his game, which I think is a very, very interesting little power move, where it's like, Allison, you know, she's the actress, she's the person people wait for on set. But in this, on this volleyball court, Keith is the master. And so he keeps her waiting. And he comes and he goes, all right, what's your question? And everyone gathers round, and there's the video cameras. They're recording. And she goes something to the effect of, what is art? Or what is the meaning of art? And, you know, in the HBO show the Vow, it's sort of shown in this very kind of tearful moment where Allison has this very profound emotional reaction to Keith's response, where he basically takes her on this meandering philosophy of art exploration of, like, what art means. And actually, it's just a projection of what's inside you. And therefore, art is really just like whatever you're feeling inside or something. Something to that extent. I'm making light of it because it's, it's, you know, a lot of what Keith. Yeah, exactly. A lot of what Keith says is, like, hard.
- [12:27]
A
We've all asked that question in our first art history class.
- [12:30]
B
Exactly Exactly. And, you know, but for Al Allison, who's somebody who. She graduated high school at 16 and moved out alone and was living by herself at 16 in. In LA, didn't go to college, this was profound for her. And she kind of had like a. Am I allowed to swear on this? Yes, I am. She had sort of like a holy moment, like, oh, my God, this actually. This thing that I thought was other people doing something, to me, it's actually meaningful because it's from within me. And it kind of seemed to unlock something within her where she was like, oh, this is the answer. Like, going deep and exploring internally is what I need to do, and that's gonna hold the secret to my happiness. And so by answering that one question, you know, Keith really kind of got. Got her on the hook and she was sort of. She was sort of in it.
- [13:22]
A
And I think in her question and her coming back and her response, Keith very quickly saw somebody that was open to his manipulation.
- [13:32]
B
Absolutely. That would be Margaret of it as well. Yeah.
- [13:35]
A
Tell me about Allison's understanding of what she was a part of.
- [13:40]
B
You know, Alison's understanding was that she. She was part of a self help group, but really that she'd kind of found her people. And she's kind of spending her weekends doing these workshops, flying and doing intensives. And, you know, she thinks she's part of this executive success program where she's becoming better and then also eventually becoming a coach herself. Because this was all kind of a part of it. It was almost. There was this whole sash system where, like, you get a different colored sash if you do achieve a certain level and et cetera, et cetera. Almost like karate. Yeah, exactly, exactly. And so eventually Allison becomes a coach in and of like in her own right. But the big kind of turning point, I would say for her is sort of in. In 2010, Smallville, the TV show that she's on, comes to an end. And when that happens, it was suggested to her that she should move to Albany to be closer to Keith and kind of deepen her education. Because there was, as you've kind of already alluded to, there was the Nexium on the surface, which was the executive success program and all this above board kind of business. We're making different curriculums, we're getting people to come in and pay for these courses, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. But there was also this other stuff going on, and that was Keith's sexual proclivities. And so, you know, pretty much Keith at a certain point was living with. I Think it was three or four. You know, he had multiple girlfriends, multiple long term partners, and he was polyamorous was how he framed it. But essentially, you know, they were all sort of sworn to secrecy and not really supposed to know about each other. But yeah, as he got his claws deeper into people, he tended to become sexually intimate with them.
- [15:32]
A
Did Allison, I know that there was a belief from the regular members of NXIVM that he was celibate. Did she think he was celibate and then learn he wasn't? Do you know about that?
- [15:41]
B
I mean, you're correct. Like, part of Keith Smith making was that he was celibate and, you know, almost like a monk, like an ascetic. He was sort of, he, he lived this life without any attachments, including sexual ones. I think that that sort of gave way for Alison pretty late, actually.
- [16:00]
A
Eventually, though, Allison does become sexually intimate with Keith. How does she tell you that comes to be.
- [16:10]
B
Yeah, I think there's about nine, nine years in nxivm where she's kind of entirely platonic with Keith and she has what she believes to be sort of a business relationship with him. That kind of begins to change. Allison went to Williamstown, Massachusetts to go see a play with another woman who is in nxivm. And Allison's talking to that woman. The woman's sort of asking, you know, is there anything you're, you feel like you need to work on, like, whatever, whatever. Because again, like this group, Nexium, it's all about self improvement. It's eternally self optimization, self improvement. And Allison sort of said to this woman, well, you know what? Like, I do feel like I have some blocks around my sexuality and around like, being sexually intimate. And, you know, she said something to the extent, something to the effect of, I think there were some things that happened when I was a kid sexually that like, weren't fully okay. And you know, know, I think that might be part of this. And the woman said, well, have you talked to Keith about it? And Allison said, no, why would I do that? Like, he's my teacher. We kind of have a business together. Because at this time Allison actually was in charge of a curriculum called the Source, which was essentially Nexium's acting focused class or, or set of workshops. So anyway, that conversation plants a seed for Allison where she kind of thinks, okay, maybe I should go and talk to Keith about this. And Keith essentially says to her, okay, I, I can help you with this, but because this is a physical problem, it's going to need a physical Solution, and this was part of Nexium kind of teachings, was there was this idea that you could learn things in theory, but you wouldn't really know them until you're doing it. Like, yeah, you can read a book about skiing, but you won't actually know about how to ski. You won't actually know how to ski until you're going down the ski slope. And so Allison sort of thought like, oh, okay, I guess. I guess that makes sense. And also, you know, Keith, again, he's celibate, right? That's. That's the story. And he sort of says something to her to the effect of, like, you know, this isn't pleasurable for me. Like, and I think the other woman also, you know, this is all like, there's other women kind of talking and. And sort of without doing. Doing Keith's bidding, essentially, to effect where they're sort of saying, like, oh, you know, you know, he doesn't enjoy this. Like, this is. This is work for him. He's actually the safest person you could do this with. And it becomes this really, like, twisted sort of cycle where for a period, I mean, they were. He was having sex with her every day. And actually, like, the language. It's very difficult to talk about, like, the language to talk about this, because, you know, at the time, Allison thought that it was consensual. And at the time, this was framed as spiritual work. And he would say really disturbing things to her about, you know, actually, I don't want to go into it, but you can listen to the pod. But.
- [19:20]
A
Well, the indoctrination was deep by that point. It was really interesting to hear her tell you about her thought process upon hearing that it wasn't anything for him, that it was part of the process and how quickly she allowed that to be true. And then you add on top of it that it was quite horrifying to listen to her regime of eating and exercising. I mean, nobody, regardless of any kind of indoctrination, tell us about how skinny and horribly unhealthy she became, that her brain would not have been working properly.
- [19:58]
B
Absolutely. So Allison was essentially put on a starvation diet by Keith for three years, starting in 2015. She was on a 500 calorie a day diet, and she was exercising every. She was doing yoga every morning. She was running multiple miles a day on that, you know, 500 calorie a day diet, again, which is not enough food to sustain you, because Keith had given her a target weight, you know, and he did this with a lot of women. And I believe Allison's weight was she had to stay between 103 to 105 pounds. And Allison's like, not that far. We're sort of similar in height. I think she's like 55 or something like that. It's just really, really, very, very low weight. And so, yeah, she was starving, and a lot of these women were starving. They also weren't sleeping. They were. She was sleeping, I think, like three hours a night because she was working, working out, working on coming home, working on curriculum, going to play volleyball, coming back, sleeping, going to sleep at 3am and then waking up at 6am again. And, you know, the cycle of control was incredibly intense.
- [21:20]
A
Things. If you want to hear daily news that doesn't hurt your soul and might even be good for your soul, check out as It Happens. I'm Chris Howden.
- [21:28]
B
And I'm Ile Koksal. Every day we reach people at the center of the most extraordinary stories, like the doctor who restored a patient's eyesight.
- [21:35]
A
With a tooth, or a musician in an orchestra that plays instruments made out of vegetables.
- [21:40]
B
Take the scenic route through the day's news with as It Happens, and you can find us wherever you get.
- [21:45]
A
Your podcasts eventually fall apart because of this quote unquote women's group that they named doss. What was Dos?
- [21:56]
B
Yeah, so DOS was this all women's group. They called it a sorority for sort of marketing purposes. But the idea was that this was really hardcore. This was where women could level up and really commit. Because, of course, the backdrop in nxivm was this other thing called Genesis Women's group. The backdrop was very gendered roles that. And these ideas that women are kind of weak and they change their mind really often, and they're so manipulative. Exactly. And, you know, they need. They need to find a way to kind of commit and not be so flaky, which I got to say, it doesn't sound like a woman I know. But anyway, so. So. And it was super secret. And essentially Keith recruited seven women initially, and they were essentially, like, super loyal to Keith. That's. That's what it was. Keith was the master, but they were sworn to.
- [22:54]
A
And they used that language. Just to be clear, they actually used the slave master language.
- [22:59]
B
Yes, correct. Correct. And, you know, it was a profound part of their lives. Like, Allison had to text Keith what she was going to eat before she ate it and say, hey, Master, can I please eat this? Here's what it is. And he had to grant her permission. And before she went to bed, Every day she had to text him her plan for the next day, saying, master, this is my plan for the next day. And, and include what, what she was going to do that day that would help her better serve him. Because the idea was that only by being like, truly kind of subservient and like really giving yourself all of yourself to another person could you kind of reach true enlightenment. And then, of course, the flip side of that and sort of where it becomes almost like a pyramid scheme is that then it sort of became, okay, well, actually you also need to feel the inverse of this. So you actually now need to now become masters and you need to get. Now go and recruit your own slaves. And that is where Alison kind of recruited India Oxenberg, who's one of the more famous people who got really deep in nxivm too. Her mother, Catherine Oxenberg, was very vocal in helping bring an end to Nexium, helping get the FBI involved. And it led all these. All these other first line slaves then became masters and went and were told to go and recruit girls themselves.
- [24:25]
A
And that was when the branding started to.
- [24:27]
B
Yes, yes. So for context, like, this is. We're about nine years into Alison's time in NXIVM. This is DOS begins around 2015 or so. The cult really comes to an end around 2018. These three years of DOS are when all the really, really crazy shit is happening, happening. The first eight slaves get branded in a very kind of haphazard. It's not really a ceremony. It's like Allison goes on her lunch break when she's, when she's doing one of these, one of these seminars and just gets branded. But slowly this kind of ritual becomes codified where as a symbol of your never ending loyalty and whatever else, you get a. You get a hip brand kind of to be part of this female sorority. And of course, it was sort of framed as like, oh, this is like a really hardcore cool thing we're doing. It's like getting a tattoo but, like, even more intense.
- [25:27]
A
And the women were told the brand was like a sun, moon, water symbol, but it really was Keith's initials.
- [25:35]
B
Yeah, they were told a bunch of bullshit, you know, like there was a million different things, things that this was. Oh, this line means this, this is, this is whatever, you know, deep spiritual thing that it wasn't. It was really Keith's initials. And like, just to hit this home, like, it. They were branded sort of right by their pelvic area. And it's sick. Like, it's an. It's a cattle Brand. It's ownership. Right. And a big thing that Keith was doing was like performing oral sex or like forced oral sex on a lot of these women. And like, I just feel like that. Yeah, I just feel like it's all. It was all part of his sick desires. Fantasies, like perversions. Yeah. But, yeah, of course it was wrapped up in this. In this language of meaning. And, you know, one of the other big rumors that kind of came about was that actually it was Allison's initials too. Yeah. Within the brand, which is not correct.
- [26:30]
A
When we were researching and doing interviews for Escaping Nexium, we still believed that it was both.
- [26:35]
B
Yes.
- [26:36]
A
So, yeah, it was believed for a long time that it was both of their initials.
- [26:39]
B
Absolutely.
- [26:40]
A
And.
- [26:40]
B
And you know, for the record, like, Allison didn't help herself. Like, she came out and went on the record to Vanessa Gregoriadis, my co executive producer on the show back in. Back in like 2018, and said that, oh, actually the brand was her idea. Which it wasn't. The brand was Keith's idea. Let's be really clear. But Alison thought, you know, I'll. This will. This will be helpful for him. I'll. I'll kind of take the he for this one then. It's. Yeah, it's just the extent that you will go to. To protect somebody.
- [27:09]
A
What did Allison do that was illegal? Because at this, up to this point, we're still just talking about her hurting herself. Where does she go off the rails? Where do. Where does the FBI look at Allison and say, this, this what you did, now where you headed in this direction was now something we need to take a look at.
- [27:30]
B
My feeling with Allison of where she really went off the rails was with this recruitment and specifically what was called the assignment, or this is how she framed it to these girls. And that was she would give these girls, her slaves the quote unquote assignment. And she would sometimes call it a super secret spy mission. And the assignment was that they had to go and seduce Keith to the extent that he had to take a nude picture of them. Now, of course, that isn't the only thing that happened in a lot, or at least in one of these instances, one of the slaves. One of her slaves, again, this is their terminology. Yeah. That she sent to seduce Keith, reported being sexually assaulted by Keith. Like, she said that, you know, she kind of came back crying and said that Keith performed force oral sex on her and was sort of horrified. And, you know, I asked Allison about this. You know, I said, like, what did you think when this person came back and cried to you and said this. And, you know, she still sort of rationalized it in some way to herself. Like, she rationalized that it must have been. There must have been some deeper purpose to it. This is what got her in trouble. It's. That's what led to kind of sex trafficking charges against her.
- [28:50]
A
And there's so much else. I mean, I could talk to you for six hours.
- [28:54]
B
I'm like, wait, Yeah, I go long. I'm sorry.
- [28:58]
A
No, no. And there's just so many other little parts. Like, there's the whole Lawrence part and the whole everything is just. And it's just such a big story. And everybody needs to go and listen to your podcast because we're not telling nearly enough of the story. So Keith gets arrested, charged, and actually found. Goes through quite the trial, which I was actually there for the beginning of it. And I remember waiting to see Keith for the very first time, because he is. He was such a large presence, even though when we first he was legitimately there. And then he goes and flees to Mexico, which is a whole other part of the story that we will just leave. But when he walked in, it was like the air fell out of the room because he's such a non interesting human. But it also then shows you the power of what this kind of mind control can do. Really. That's what it ended up feeling to me was like this man that if you had seen on the street, you would not even notice.
- [30:02]
B
Yeah. I mean, my. My read on Keith is that, you know, he was very, very skilled at reading other people.
- [30:08]
A
Yeah.
- [30:09]
B
And figuring out their weaknesses and figuring out how to manipulate them. And. Yeah. I mean, it is sort of remarkable because he's so unremarkable. I've heard that several times. And we actually do hear from Keith himself in this podcast because Vanessa went to Mexico to interview Keith. And that's kind of a fascinating part of it.
- [30:28]
A
Well, we'll cut to the chase. Is that he is found guilty. Is it 120 years? I mean, it's a huge sentence. And Alison is after that. So she gets charged and she takes a long time to pull away from the spiderweb that she's in.
- [30:47]
B
Yeah. This was one of the things that was so interesting to me where I was like, well, surely you must have just woken up and realized you were wrong. And it's actually a process to come out of this because. And I think Allison speaks to this in a very interesting way where she was like, if I admitted that Keith was wrong and that he wasn't Just like doing things for the good and for everyone else's good and for this higher purpose, then that meant that I was wrong, too. And there's something in that. If it's like, God, you. You really need to believe in your own goodness and your own as a human being to keep going and to kind of look at yourself and realize that you messed up on such an epic scale. Like, that shatters your whole world. And she sort of couldn't fathom it, but she said that the real turning point for her was Lauren Salzman called her attorneys and said something to the effect. This was after a superseding indictment had come out that showed that Keith had had sex with an underage girl. And Lauren essentially sent a message via Alison's attorneys where she said, like, we were wrong. We were wrong. Get the fuck out. And Allison really says that it was like, that coming from Lauren is what made her be like, I have to plead guilty. Like, I don't fully understand it, but I have to. And, you know, it would be much easier for the story and for kind of her redemption if she'd sort of realized her wrongs right away and then was so sorry. But it took her a long time. That's how muddled her brain was. Like, she didn't know which way was up.
- [32:22]
A
I found it interesting to hear your. Your own rationalization about accepting this assignment. Can you talk about that? Because you weren't sure you wanted to do. I mean, I think part of you was always like, of course I'm gonna do this, but I. I do. Part of you that was a bit worried about it, weren't you?
- [32:39]
B
I mean, I actually wasn't sure that I was going to do it. I really was sort of like, no way at the very beginning. And it was. It was a. I could have not done it. But, yeah, I mean, I think I said something to the effect of, like, Vanessa, who. I was kind of my writing partner. We write together all the time. We work together all the time. You know, she sort of called me and was like, Allison's kind of interested in telling her story. And I. I think I said something to the effect of her. To the effect of, like, I don't have. I don't want any part in Alice in Mac's redemption arc because I kind of just felt like, well, we know the story of Alice Mac. She's this sort of villain. She got these other women into the cult. She's the reason they got branded. And Vanessa kind of said, just. Just go meet her. And I. And I did. And when I met her, I was expecting, you know, I live in la, I've interviewed a lot of like, actresses in my former life and I'm around a lot of Hollywood types. And so I was expecting a very kind of like performative, like polished actress. And in a way, like, there is a little bit of that star in her. But in talking to her I realized like, oh, there's actually more here. And there is something specific that she said to me where she sort of made some joke about having always been a type a person as wanting to be the best student and, you know, wanting to be. And that led her to wanting to be the best cult member. And that really like, hit for me because I was like, oh boy, that is so interesting. I am a similar type of person. I want people to like me. I want to always have done a good job. And most of the time that's a very healthy coping mechanism. But also I've never found myself incredibly manipulated, you know, and this idea that you could want so much to be doing good and to be a good person and that you could actually be doing evil and be hurting people in that was really, really stuck with me. And the other thing was that Allison was willing to talk about that and willing to kind of reckon with what, with what she had done, which I've spoken to a lot, a fair number I would say, of people who've been convicted of crimes and done time. And her willingness to kind of sit with all the parts of that was, was interesting to me. And if I sound like I'm being too empathetic, like I, I get that, like there were a lot of people who were really hurt in this and I don't wanna, I would never take away from that. But I'm also like, I really view this story and I, I would be curious to hear your thoughts. But like, I really view the NXIVM story as like the Manson story of our time. Yet another sort of unremarkable man who you wouldn't blink at twice if you passed him in the street. And yet a man who had mostly women going and doing his bidding and doing his evil dirty work. And I mean, Allison talks about going to the Broad Museum in, in downtown LA and seeing a picture of the Manson girls kind of shaved headed outside his trial or something like that. And she had this like, holy shit, that was me moment. I really think we will be thinking about this story in that way in years to come because the, the depths of it and the depths of the manipulation and the indoctrination, especially the sexual part of it. I had no idea until, like, I really got into it with Alison and I think we knew a lot, but. But it was even worse than I thought, honestly.
- [36:15]
A
Well, thank you. I mean, like I said thank you for this because I just was so happy to know that there was something to follow it. But it's a great podcast, so everyone needs to go and get it and download it. And there is so much more to it than just what we were able to talk about. And thanks for joining us today.
- [36:32]
B
Thank you so much. This was great. I feel like we could talk about this for, like, as you said, six more hours.
- [36:37]
A
Yeah.
- [36:38]
B
But I guess people will just have to go listen to the podcast.
- [36:41]
A
You're gonna have to go listen.
- [36:42]
B
Exactly. Exactly. Thank you.
- [36:50]
A
You've been listening to Crime Story from CBC Podcasts. You can hear the show ad free by subscribing to CBC True Crime on Apple Podcasts. Be sure to follow us there on Apple or on Spotify. You can also Find us on YouTube, where we release video episodes every week. Just search and subscribe to CBC True Crime. The show is hosted by me, Kathleen Goldhar. Our producers are Nicki Manfredi and Hadil Abdelnabi. Sound design and video production by Julian Uzieli, Reza Daya and Evan Agard. Our digital producer is Emily Canal and our YouTube producer is John Lee. Our senior producer is Kate Evans. Executive producer producers are Cecil Fernandez and Chris Oak. Tanya Springer is the senior manager of CBC Podcast and Arif Narani is the director.
- [37:48]
B
For more cbc podcasts, go to cbc ca podcasts.