Ann Marie Robinson (2:10)

You go down this kind of awkward staircase into this basement, and there was kind of a stage at the end. It was just like a big, open, empty, cold room. And I just remember trying to figure out where I was going to sit. And everyone in the room was new to me, so I didn't.

Julie Ireton (2:25)

There was a musty smell. About 60 folding chairs encircled the conductor.

Ann Marie Robinson (2:31)

Kind of was a dark, dank, kind of cold church basement. But, you know, the people were friendly. But again, I was just so focused on trying to get set up and play my horn and was all worried about whether I had the skill level to even be there.

Julie Ireton (2:50)

The organizer stood up to welcome the.

Ann Marie Robinson (2:53)

Musicians and he introduced two new members.

Julie Ireton (2:57)

First Anne Marie, then.

Ann Marie Robinson (3:00)

And I looked back and I was just kind of stunned. I thought he was dead. Like I really, in my mind, he couldn't exist. Like he couldn't exist.

Julie Ireton (3:17)

If I existed, it's like seeing a ghost.

Ann Marie Robinson (3:23)

Almost believe that he wasn't really there.

Julie Ireton (3:27)

The band teacher. I'm Julie Ireton. This is season two of the Band Played On. It's a new series and a different investigation. Ann Marie Robinson is haunted, tormented by something that happened to her when she was in high school. She alleges rape. He says it was consensual sex.

Ann Marie Robinson (3:52)

I never resisted because I was like I was under his control.

Julie Ireton (3:58)

Our story unfolds in Toronto, Canada's biggest city. But this journey will take us across the country and well beyond. This one woman.

Peter Hamer (4:08)

I knew she existed. I knew someone existed. There's more of us. Something happened to me, too.

Ann Marie Robinson (4:16)

Wow. Me too.

Julie Ireton (4:17)

I just get angry that what brought.

Ann Marie Robinson (4:19)

Us together was him.

Julie Ireton (4:21)

Just that somebody could be this diabolical.

Unnamed Victim (4:25)

And that other people let it happen.

Julie Ireton (4:28)

Questions will be raised. Many will be answered. How many girls at how many schools who knew? Why didn't those in positions of power prevent this man from getting too close and having sex with teen girls? And what's the recourse for women who are victims of historical sexual abuse?

Mattea Roach (4:46)

We're in 55 division in the interview room.

Julie Ireton (4:50)

It's a historical sexual assault occurrence, and.

Ann Marie Robinson (4:53)

The occurrence number is.

Julie Ireton (4:54)

Ann Marie Robinson wants to regain control and fix systemic flaws. And she's just the kind of person who can pull it off.

Ann Marie Robinson (5:03)

We can't move forward as individuals or as a society if we keep this stuff secret. Keeping this secret has not done anyone any good.

Julie Ireton (5:14)

Along the way, she'll gather a posse to help her. But this whole journey begins with just one woman and one story. Episode 1 the Ghost Tell me your name. Tell me you know what city we're in, and I'll get a level on your voice.

Ann Marie Robinson (5:50)

Okay. San Marie Robinson. And we are in Ottawa.

Julie Ireton (5:57)

It's October 2021, and we're sitting in my backyard. My dog is being taunted by the neighborhood squirrels.

Ann Marie Robinson (6:06)

You can edit all this, right?

Julie Ireton (6:08)

Hey, come lie down, Archie. The Aussie doodle is actually a good distraction. An unofficial therapy dog. Ann Marie is a bit nervous. Her shoulders are hunched. Her dark brown bangs hide the top of her eyes like a shield. She's in her early 60s, but looks younger. She's dressed comfortably. Loose clothing on a petite frame, no socks, slip on shoes. Ann Marie sought me out, and we've spoken several times since she first reached out to me in 2020. We took our time to build trust. I didn't want to rush Ann Marie into telling her story. So this is a first for the microphone.

Ann Marie Robinson (6:50)

She's ready I would like what I would consider a proper, full investigation.

Julie Ireton (6:56)

She wants answers.

Ann Marie Robinson (7:01)

I want to do it because I want to understand what happened to. I want to know if I'm alone or not, if there's other victims. And I want.

Julie Ireton (7:13)

And she's done her homework, you know.

Ann Marie Robinson (7:15)

By having listened to the Band Played On.

Unnamed Victim (7:17)

I kind of knew that you had.

Ann Marie Robinson (7:19)

A sensitivity in this area, which was good.

Julie Ireton (7:23)

She tracked down Peter Hamer. I told his story in the last season of the Band Played On. In that series, I discovered more than 50 victims of sexual abuse. Three teachers from one school preyed on those teens over decades. Peter is one of those survivors. I found answers. He found closure. Annemarie comes from another school in a different city, but she wants to take that journey. Peter has words of warning.

Unnamed Survivor (7:52)

There were so many ups and downs, but there were also so many bad things, like things that we learned that affected me personally, even though they weren't necessarily my story.

Julie Ireton (8:02)

And while this season will touch on similar themes, I'm already surprised at how different the attitudes, responses and excuses are in cases involving girls rather than boys. I envision different bumps and larger craters along this road.

Unnamed Survivor (8:18)

With Ann Marie, the caution is take care of yourself while you do it. But you have to embrace this, because this is a huge thing for you. But you have to protect yourself.

Julie Ireton (8:28)

And I've done my homework, too. Googled Ann Marie's name right after her first call. I found government reports, photos, media clippings, plenty of information about her and videos.

Unnamed Senate Committee Member (8:41)

I call this meeting of the Senate Standing Committee on National Finance to order.

Julie Ireton (8:48)

Anne Marie Robinson was a big deal in the Canadian government. A top bureaucrat, she often presented to politicians in parliamentary committees.

Unnamed Senate Committee Member (9:00)

Commission we're very pleased to welcome for the first time in her capacity as president of the Public Service Commission, Ann Marie Robinson.

Julie Ireton (9:11)

The commission oversees the federal workforce. It's not a union. It's part of the government.

Ann Marie Robinson (9:17)

So it's kind of like an auditor general because it's basically a regulator of the staffing authority.

Julie Ireton (9:22)

And she was in charge. Watching these videos, it's almost like looking at a different person. She wears confidence with her fitted business suits, influent bureaucrats, teas. She rattles off stats, methods and protocols in two official languages. But at some point, that policy wonk was overtaken by dark, painful memories. Now she's ready to talk about what brought her here. Hey, come lie down. Come lie down. So on my deck, wrangling the dog and the microphone, I start asking questions. I need to know everything, but I know we'll need to take it slowly. Tell me where you grew up.

Ann Marie Robinson (10:06)

Okay. Well, I was born in Toronto. My mum was a single mother, and, you know, she was just trying to get by and make ends meet.

Julie Ireton (10:24)

She was the youngest of three. She has an older sister, a brother in the middle. They all lived with their mom in public housing. She hardly knew her dad. Ann Marie attended Eastern High School of Commerce in Toronto's Danforth area. She did well in all her classes, but music was the draw.

Ann Marie Robinson (10:43)

Well, in high school, all I did was band, you know, being in the band and being a French horn player. And I had wanted at the time to become a professional musician.

Julie Ireton (10:52)

What was good about it?

Ann Marie Robinson (10:53)

What did you enjoy about it? I just loved the music. Yeah, I loved the music.

Julie Ireton (10:59)

She even skipped a grade.

Ann Marie Robinson (11:01)

I was supposed to be in grade 10. I was in grade 10, and I was supposed to be in grade 10 music. But Walker put me into grade 11 music.

Julie Ireton (11:09)

Her music teacher, Doug Walker.

Ann Marie Robinson (11:12)

Mr. Walker, he had kind of short blond hair. He was. He was a bit overweight and tall.

Julie Ireton (11:23)

The band leader.

Ann Marie Robinson (11:26)

He was like one of the kids, you know, he hung out with kids, it seems. I kind of associate him more with hanging out with the kids than his colleagues, which at the time, you know, we thought he was cool because of that. But now it just seems kind of odd to me. He would have been in his late 20s, maybe almost 30.

Julie Ireton (11:47)

It's clear from photos. Ann Marie was an attractive teenager. She dressed up for band.

Ann Marie Robinson (11:53)

Our band uniform was a blazer and a shirt.

Julie Ireton (11:57)

Her dark brown hair was feathered.

Ann Marie Robinson (12:00)

Oh, I had Farrah Fawcett hair. And I was super proud of that. I would get up every morning and do those big sausage rolls in my head.

Julie Ireton (12:07)

She became the music teacher's favorite.

Ann Marie Robinson (12:10)

He paid a lot of attention to me. And all the other kids in the school had to share French horns and put them away at night and then sign them out if they wanted to take them home. And he used his budget to buy me a horn.

Julie Ireton (12:26)

High school bands demand commitment practices, classes, concerts and trips, and those trips are coveted. Kids get away from their parents. They stay in hotels, they play in front of audiences and in competitions. Ann Marie tells me about one band trip in 1977.

Unnamed Victim (12:46)

We were on a school field trip to Belleville, a band trip. And we were all drinking alcohol, and Mr. Walker provided the alcohol.

Julie Ireton (12:55)

She was 16. They were a few hours drive from home in a city about halfway between Ottawa and Toronto.

Unnamed Victim (13:03)

Kind of the first thing I remember was being in a hotel room in Belleville.

Julie Ireton (13:10)

Initially, other Kids were there in the teacher's hotel room. Then they left. She was alone with the teacher.

Unnamed Victim (13:18)

And then, next thing I remember is he was standing over me in his black underwear and we had intercourse.

Julie Ireton (13:29)

Ann Marie's first time would be with her music teacher.

Unnamed Victim (13:36)

And then the next morning, I remember waking up really scared and not being able to make sense of what had happened. I was obviously drunk on the alcohol that he provided. And there was a bunch of other kids there too. And, you know, they remember being in the room.

Julie Ireton (13:55)

Did any of them suspect what had gone on between you and the teacher?

Unnamed Victim (13:59)

I don't know. I mean, I was just way too afraid to talk about it. The next thing I remember is going into his office. I don't know how far after the trip it was, but it was pretty close. And I remember him telling me that he had left his previous school because he'd been punched in the face by a father of a student for having some sort of sexual contact with that student. Now, at the time, he told me it wasn't true. He told me that story, I think, to make me feel responsible for his job. And I was in grade 10. I didn't understand the world the way I do now. But at the time, it made me feel sorry for him. He told me his life was hard.

Julie Ireton (14:50)

And so that story, the teacher being punched by an angry father would lay the foundation for what came next. She didn't want him to get in trouble.

Ann Marie Robinson (15:03)

It evolved into an emotional type relationship, but sort of in a Stockholm syndrome kind of way, like I had no way out.

Julie Ireton (15:12)

Ann Marie says she developed a dependency on him. He told her it was love, and at the time she thought she was in love too.

Ann Marie Robinson (15:21)

I know I was vulnerable and I had no father. And my mother was just very preoccupied. And for some reason I didn't feel like I could go to her.

Julie Ireton (15:33)

She remembers unwelcome sex with the teacher, continued in his car after practices, on other out of town band trips, over and over again. She was 16, above the legal age to consent. And at the time, 1977, no laws prevented a teacher from having sex with his student if there was consent.

Ann Marie Robinson (15:57)

He had sex with me once in the classroom, in a closet. And that, you know, I remember being humiliating. I never resisted because I was like I was under his control. But he was gonna. Everything was gonna be okay because he was gonna marry me. And because of the initial, what I see now, given the fact that I was drunk with the alcohol he gave me as a rape, I was. It was like I was trying to reconcile that.

Julie Ireton (16:33)

She says she always felt under his.

Ann Marie Robinson (16:35)

Control because he was my teacher. He was someone to be trusted. I mean. And so even though I didn't like what had happened, I felt like somehow I was very confused. I mean, immediately after that, he kept telling me that he was in love with me and all of this stuff and at some point made me feel like I was actually his girlfriend, which I knew I wasn't because I knew that what we were doing or what had gone on was wrong and it.

Julie Ireton (17:23)

Had to be kept secret.

Ann Marie Robinson (17:25)

It was sneaking around. I mean, you know, he would treat me differently in private than he would in public. He told me I wasn't allowed to tell anyone what was happening.

Julie Ireton (17:37)

She still can't make sense of it. A man having sex with a kid.

Ann Marie Robinson (17:43)

He never forced me. I wouldn't say he forced himself on me. It was more like a routine. I was an emotional prisoner. Nada. Like, he would get me in circumstances, and then I didn't. Yeah, I don't really like to talk about it. That's okay. Yeah.

Julie Ireton (18:03)

And it wasn't just during school time.

Kathleen Goldhar (18:08)

When Derek Johnson was diagnosed with cerebral palsy, his family thought that he would never be able to speak. And then they met Professor Anna Stubblefield. And she believed that with the right technique, he could say what was on his mind. But what began as an opportunity turned into accusations of sexual assault. I'm Kathleen Goldhar, and this week on Crime Story, we dive into the complicated questions surrounding the doc Tell Them youm Love Me. Find Crime Story wherever you get your podcasts.

Julie Ireton (18:39)

The music teacher also introduced Anne Marie to another band, a professional one.

Ann Marie Robinson (18:44)

I remember being with him, going to the Royal Regiment Band, and him driving me around. Walker would take me to the armories, and there was drinking after.

Julie Ireton (19:03)

The Royals is a Canadian military band. It still operates out of Fort York, the historic military site in downtown Toronto. The band parades through the city on special occasions, like this one. This outdoor performance is from a YouTube video in 2015. They wear formal red military uniforms, shiny boots, and those big bearskin hats like the guards at Buckingham Palace. The band sometimes plays for royalty.

Ann Marie Robinson (19:42)

They're a good band. I mean, I think they're still a good band now. And they were a great band in the mid-70s. And I was a member of the union. And I got paid really good money to play, which for, you know, someone who was raised by a single mother and my mom was on social assistance, it was like, I think I got paid $50 a concert, which in the 70s was incredible.

Julie Ireton (20:16)

But it Meant seeing her music teacher all summer, Even when school was out, he would drive her to practices and take her home.

Ann Marie Robinson (20:25)

Well, it was the same every time. We would drive to a street and then he would initiate sexual activity in the front seat of the car. Yeah, it was just kind of expected.

Julie Ireton (20:41)

She was isolated from her teen friends, and it was the beginning of a profound loneliness that would dog her for decades to come. She needed a father, she needed support, and her teacher was providing flimsy scaffolding. It wasn't really love, and there would be no marriage. He was already living with the woman who would become his current wife, a fellow teacher. After more than a year of sex, on band trips, in cars and in closets, this teenager had to escape.

Ann Marie Robinson (21:15)

The only way I could get out was to quit high school.

Julie Ireton (21:19)

She didn't see the teacher again, and she didn't graduate.

Ann Marie Robinson (21:23)

There was no follow up from either the school board or him or anything. I just kind of floated away from school one day and I went into a deep depression. And I know I don't have evidence of this, but I know in my heart that everyone knew something was going on. And he was out of line. Like, where were the other adults? Why didn't they help me?

Julie Ireton (21:53)

She had very good marks. She was part of the band, but no one asked why. She just stopped going to school.

Ann Marie Robinson (22:01)

I suffered from severe mental illness After I was having panic attacks. I had almost two years where I could barely leave the house. In the aftermath of all of this, I was so thrown off my center and I just felt like a bad person.

Julie Ireton (22:16)

She was still a teen and needed support. She found it in another man, someone about a dozen years older.

Ann Marie Robinson (22:23)

I got married at 18 and had a lovely boy at 21. I figured out that you could go to university without having a high school diploma.

Julie Ireton (22:40)

Life got back on track. She completed two degrees, then a master's, most of it part time.

Ann Marie Robinson (22:47)

And then I joined government in 1990 as a GST auditor.

Julie Ireton (22:51)

So she worked as a tax auditor. She raised her son, got divorced, then remarried, then divorced again. She moved across the country. Relationships with men were difficult, but she found herself in her work.

Ann Marie Robinson (23:07)

I loved everything about government. I went from department to department and I worked on, on every file. So I became eventually a policy wonk, you know, I got promoted fairly regularly and then I became a deputy minister around 2010. And then I applied for and got the job as president of the Public Service Commission.

Julie Ireton (23:33)

She was in a good place at home and work. One day she typed the teacher's name into a Search.

Ann Marie Robinson (23:40)

I Googled his name and I found a transcript. It was really the first time, I think, in 30 years I'd have the guts to even think about him. And the victim.

Julie Ireton (23:52)

He had another victim, another teenager, a student at another school. He'd been banned from teaching.

Ann Marie Robinson (24:04)

This woman is my hero. I would love to meet her. And it's the same story, so the.

Julie Ireton (24:09)

Same story as hers. Ann Marie wasn't alone. There was at least one other woman out there who knew how all this felt. The online report reveals the band teacher had sex with this teen student over and over again, more than 56 times at school, in cars. The Ontario College of Teachers, the profession's regulator, found him guilty of professional misconduct. But the girl's name is blacked out by this stage. Anne Marie was married to husband number three. Together, they had a daughter. And that little girl had musical talent.

Ann Marie Robinson (24:48)

After I walked out of my high school after Walker, I hadn't touched the French horn. It was like a thing far, far, far in my past.

Julie Ireton (24:59)

But then her daughter joined her high school band and convinced Ann Marie to pick up the horn again. And that takes us back to that first band practice and the night she saw the ghost.

Ann Marie Robinson (25:16)

He had to be dead. And I know one of the psychologists that I worked with, she described it as me being delusional, as a way to feel like I could survive in the world if he didn't exist.

Julie Ireton (25:27)

It was easier to imagine her former music teacher debt. She was able to play music again.

Ann Marie Robinson (25:33)

I was invited by one of the instructors to go join the National Capital Concert Band. So that was in September of 2014. And it was exciting for me because it was recovering something that I had lost because of Walker. And the first rehearsal, they introduced two new members. It was myself and Douglas Walker. When I heard his name and I heard his instrument, I thought, you know, the Doug Walker that I knew. Mr. Walker, my teacher, he played trombone. But I thought, okay, it's not that uncommon of a name. And I looked back, and at first I didn't think it was him or I wasn't sure it was him. It was an old man. And I, you know, I was older, too. And so at break, he came up to me and I looked at him and I said, you remember me? And he said, of course I do. Like, I was so shocked. I couldn't be me if he existed. I know that sounds a bit crazy, but I had spent my life trying to build a strong person, and that person was just so different from the person he left behind.

Julie Ireton (27:14)

She had no intention of regressing.

Ann Marie Robinson (27:17)

At that point in my career, I was the president of the Public Service Commission. I was a deputy minister. And I remember saying to myself, okay, this practically destroyed me when I was young, but I'm strong now. And so I said, well, I think we should talk and let's go for coffee next week.

Julie Ireton (27:47)

Ann Marie and the dog are getting restless.

Ann Marie Robinson (27:51)

I'm tired. Yeah, I'm starting to lose it.

Julie Ireton (27:55)

We leave it there for the day. I'm asking the questions, but Annemarie is in control. After what she's been through, I have to give her that. I want to make this as comfortable as possible. Arch, stay quiet. Finding Doug Walker, the former music teacher, is not difficult. I locate his address and send him a registered letter. He emails me back right away. He doesn't deny having sex with Annemarie, but Walker contends the relationship with Ann Marie was consensual. Not surprisingly, he doesn't want to do an interview with me. But we're moving ahead with this investigation and there is much more to come.

Peter Hamer (28:41)

He picked the wrong girls. We are smart. We are assertive. We kept going through the shit.

Julie Ireton (28:49)

Next time on the Band Teacher, Ann Marie goes for coffee with the former band leader.

Ann Marie Robinson (28:55)

And so I basically spent the whole week deciding what I was going to say to him.

Julie Ireton (29:01)

And she thinks going back to her old school might help kickstart her own memory and her healing.

Ann Marie Robinson (29:08)

I was actually sexually assaulted at this school by my teacher in the 1970s. Oh, dear.

Julie Ireton (29:18)

The band teacher is investigated, reported, written and hosted by me. Julie Ireton. Allison Cook is the story and script editor, producer, sound designer and mixer. Felice Chin is our executive producer and story editor. Ev St. Laurent is our legal advisor. Jennifer Chen, Amanda Pfeffer and Jen White provided valuable production advice. Special thanks to the folks at CBC Podcasts for their support. The managing editor of CBC Ottawa is Drake Fenton. If you want to binge the whole series, subscribe to CBC True Crime Premium on Apple Podcasts. Just click on the link in the show description or binge listen for free by logging in to CBC Listen. If you or someone you know has been sexually abused, community resources can help. Reach out to a trusted person sexual assault center or rape crisis center in your area. For more CBC Podcasts, go to CBC CA Podcasts.