S31 E4: Hello powerful woman | The Banned Teacher

Summary

Podcast Summary: "Hello Powerful Woman | The Banned Teacher" (S31 E4)

Podcast Information:

• Title: Sea of Lies from Uncover
• Host/Author: CBC
• Episode: S31 E4: Hello Powerful Woman | The Banned Teacher
• Release Date: January 11, 2025
• Description: This episode delves into the harrowing story of Anne Marie Robinson, a survivor of a dismissed rape case against her former teacher, Doug Walker. As she navigates feelings of isolation and injustice, new connections emerge, revealing systemic flaws and reigniting hope for accountability.

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1. Introduction and Case Background

The episode opens with Anne Marie Robinson and Julie Ireton discussing the aftermath of the dismissed criminal case against Doug Walker, a former teacher accused of rape. Anne Marie reflects on the emotional toll the case has taken on her.

Notable Quote:

• Anne Marie Robinson [01:00]: "I mean, what I want her to know is she's not alone."

2. The Dismissed Rape Case

Anne Marie details the dismissal of her rape case, highlighting the judge's reliance on outdated laws and the lack of evidence to support the Crown's claims. The ruling left Anne Marie feeling misunderstood and unsupported.

Key Points:

• The judge applied a law from the 1950s, despite its repeal before Anne Marie's incident.
• Judge J.C. Moore [06:04]: "Mr. Walker is therefore discharged and is free to go."

Notable Quote:

• Anne Marie Robinson [07:39]: "He says... that somehow that implies that I had consented in the past. It's not like we had any sort of real relationship in that context."

3. Systemic Issues in Sexual Assault Cases

Julie Ireton interviews Pamela Cross, a lawyer advocating for sexual assault victims, who critiques the systemic failures in handling such cases. Pamela emphasizes the low reporting rates and the challenges victims face within the legal system.

Notable Quotes:

• Pamela Cross [10:53]: "I don't encourage women to report to the police because I don't think the system works well for them."
• Pamela Cross [15:18]: "Right. Silence is not consent."

4. The Emergence of JM: A Second Survivor

The narrative shifts as JM (Jeannie McKay), another survivor of Doug Walker, is introduced. JM's courage in coming forward provides Anne Marie with a sense of solidarity and breaks her prolonged isolation.

Notable Quote:

• Jeannie McKay [19:53]: "Hello, powerful woman... I'm jm. I'm so sorry that you were abused by dw, too."

5. Investigating Doug Walker’s Military Background

Julie and Anne Marie investigate Doug Walker's involvement with the Royal Regiment of Canada band. They uncover discrepancies in his official records, revealing his hidden military rank and connections that facilitated his manipulative behavior.

Key Points:

• Walker's resume lacked mention of his military band participation.
• Julie Ireton [28:02]: "On his resume, there's not one word, nothing about having been in the military band."

6. Connecting the Dots: Further Revelations

Through persistent investigation, Julie uncovers Walker’s extensive involvement with the military band and his pattern of moving between schools. Conversations with former band members like Barry Hodgins shed light on Walker’s respected but troubling presence within the band.

Key Points:

• Walker held the rank of Master Warrant Officer and assistant conductor.
• Barry Hodgins [26:20]: "Doug was in his element there... very highly respected."

7. The Emotional Impact and Moving Forward

The emotional reunion between Anne Marie and JM underscores the deep psychological scars left by Walker. Together, they strive to advocate for a more supportive system for survivors and seek justice.

Notable Quotes:

• Jeannie McKay [33:07]: "I thought he was our little predator, but it's our story."
• Anne Marie Robinson [34:15]: "It broke the cycle of loneliness that... it makes it real."

8. Conclusion and Ongoing Efforts

The episode concludes with Anne Marie and JM united in their quest for justice, highlighting the importance of solidarity among survivors. Julie Ireton continues to investigate systemic issues and seeks to shed light on Walker’s manipulative tactics.

Final Notable Quote:

• Jeannie McKay [37:15]: "The band teacher is investigated, reported, written and hosted by me."

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Key Takeaways:

• Systemic Flaws: The episode exposes significant shortcomings in the legal system's handling of sexual assault cases, particularly those involving power dynamics and historical laws.
• Survivor Solidarity: Anne Marie and JM's connection exemplifies the healing power of shared experiences and mutual support.
• Investigative Persistence: Julie Ireton's relentless pursuit of the truth underscores the importance of investigative journalism in uncovering hidden injustices.

Notable Quotes with Timestamps:

• Anne Marie Robinson [01:00]: "I mean, what I want her to know is she's not alone."
• Pamela Cross [10:53]: "I don't encourage women to report to the police because I don't think the system works well for them."
• Jeannie McKay [19:53]: "Hello, powerful woman... I'm jm. I'm so sorry that you were abused by dw, too."
• Anne Marie Robinson [34:15]: "It broke the cycle of loneliness that... it makes it real."

Impactful Themes:

• Grooming and Manipulation: The podcast highlights how individuals in positions of power can exploit their authority to manipulate and abuse vulnerable individuals.
• Legal System Critique: There is a strong critique of how outdated laws and systemic biases hinder justice for survivors.
• Hope and Justice: Despite the hurdles, the story conveys a message of hope through survivor solidarity and the pursuit of systemic change.

Conclusion: "Hello Powerful Woman | The Banned Teacher" is a poignant exploration of the struggles faced by sexual assault survivors within an imperfect legal system. Through Anne Marie Robinson and JM's journey, the podcast underscores the need for systemic reform and the enduring strength found in solidarity among survivors.

Transcript

[Tom Power]

Hey, Tom. Here I host the podcast Q with Tom Hauer. I mean, that's my name. I talk to all kinds of artists. Actors, musicians, comedians, playwrights, you name it. We've talked to Gwen Stefani, Jada, Pinkett Smith, Cillian Murphy, Paris Hilton, Leslie Jones, Maggie Rodgers, Maya Rudolph, Tim Burton, Dua Lipa, Tom Hanks, Brittany Howard. I only have 30 seconds, so I'll stop there. Listen to Q with Tom Power to hear your favorite artists as they truly are. Wherever you get your podcasts. This is a CBC podcast and I.

[Anne Marie Robinson]

Would like to keep her name secret unless. Unless she wants to.

[Julie Ireton]

Yeah, she wants to.

[Anne Marie Robinson]

But I do think she has a lot to say.

[Julie Ireton]

Thanks to an old contact at the Royal Regiment of Canada band, Anne Marie Robinson now has the name of the other student who reported Doug Walker. This woman blew the whistle. He was banned from teaching. That anxious excitement is back in her voice.

[Anne Marie Robinson]

So it was very emotional for me. It was like, unbelievably comforting in a way, to know that you're not alone.

[Julie Ireton]

Ann Marie sits at the desk in her home office, talking to me by video. Her brown bangs brush the top of her glasses. Every now and then, I hear her little dog yipping.

[Anne Marie Robinson]

Sorry about my musical dog in the background.

[Julie Ireton]

For the first time since the criminal case against the former teacher was dismissed, I see some hope in her eyes.

[Anne Marie Robinson]

I mean, what I want her to know is she's not alone.

[Julie Ireton]

She wonders if knowing this woman and maybe other survivors would have made a difference to her court case. Strength in numbers.

[Anne Marie Robinson]

Like you said, she doesn't have to.

[Julie Ireton]

Reveal her name to protect her identity. We'll refer to her as jm.

[Anne Marie Robinson]

I also want to know that she has a voice, too. I mean, this is a much later time in her life, so I think she may want to have a voice.

[Julie Ireton]

JM is a teacher and she lives in British Columbia. She's in her late 50s. JM played with the military band, too.

[Anne Marie Robinson]

I'm sure, given that she's an advocate and a teacher, she'll have something to say, like I'm sure she will.

[Julie Ireton]

It sounds like Anne Marie is trying to convince herself she's actually consumed by guilt when she thinks about this woman. JM's experience came soon after the music teacher left Anne Marie school and Ann Marie didn't report him. Back in high school, I felt physically.

[Anne Marie Robinson]

Ill at one point, but it was just this weird combination of anger, relief, not being alone, but also just like a gut punch.

[Julie Ireton]

How do you plan to or want to move forward in terms of reaching.

[Anne Marie Robinson]

Out Well, I think it has to be. It has to be me. And then we'll go from there.

[Julie Ireton]

She knows what she wants to say, but how to say it.

[Anne Marie Robinson]

I started writing a letter last night. It's hard for me to do it, but I don't want to mess it up because for me, meeting her is the most important thing to me right now.

[Julie Ireton]

Absolutely. Absolutely. Take your time with it. And it's an important one for sure. It's a really important one. Ann Marie sends an email to an address she's found online for jm the introduction is made and we wait. The band teacher. I'm Julie Ireton. This is season two of the Band played on. Ann Marie Robinson lost her battle in court. The charge of rape was dropped. The case didn't go to trial. But questions linger, and Ann Marie and I are pursuing answers.

[Pamela Cross]

I think it's an important story. I think what happened to you was a complete miscarriage of justice.

[Anne Marie Robinson]

But we're not giving up, so we'll see where this goes, but we're not giving up.

[Jeannie McKay]

She'd been carrying Matt for all those years. She didn't have to feel guilt that he got to me. It's our story.

[Julie Ireton]

Our story began in Canada's biggest city, but it's about to take us across the country and well beyond this one. Survivor Episode 4 hello, powerful woman.

[Tom Power]

Good morning. Okay, so I am prepared to give my judgment now.

[Julie Ireton]

To me, the judgment in Anne Marie's case sounds like a 1950s courtroom melodrama, not a decision written in 2021. That's probably because the Ontario judge is applying a law originally passed in the 1950s. The rape law was repealed decades ago, but it still applies to an alleged crime that occurred before the law changed. Like in RV Walker.

[Tom Power]

William Walker is facing one count of rape Contrary to section 143, bracket A, RSC 1970, the Criminal Code of Canada.

[Julie Ireton]

Anne Marie's case was one of the last this judge ever ruled on. He's now retired. I ordered a copy of the entire decision shortly after it was delivered. We heard a snippet in the last episode. Here's a bit more of Justice J.C. moore's ruling in the Walker case. It's read by my CBC colleague, Malcolm Campbell.

[Tom Power]

For the purposes of this preliminary hearing, the Crown needs to adduce some evidence that Ann Marie Robinson did not consent to have sexual intercourse with the defendant, William Walker. But the Crown asked that I draw an inference that she did not consent based on the totality of the circumstances evident on that occasion. Despite the age Difference and the fact that she was a student and he a teacher. A relationship had begun prior to the Belleville incident, which is the subject matter of the charge, and evolved over the next several months into a relationship that included consensual sexual activity. Spending much of their free time together and talk of love and marriage. What the Crown is left with in this case is the reality that there is no evidence before this court, either from the complainant or any other source, that the intercourse took place without her consent. To infer otherwise would be based on speculation, unsupported conjecture, and wishful thinking. There is no evidence upon which a reasonable jury properly instructed, and that would have to include a proper instruction on drawing inferences, could find Mr. Walker guilty of the offense of rape as it existed in 1977. Mr. Walker is therefore discharged and is free to go.

[Julie Ireton]

Ann Marie didn't hear the judge's decision in person. In fact, she wasn't invited to attend court that day. She only saw the decision after I received the transcript.

[Anne Marie Robinson]

I did come away feeling like the judge didn't really understand what had happened to me.

[Julie Ireton]

The judge told the Crown the law didn't allow him to make inferences or interpret events from 1977. Yet Ann Marie says the judge himself made an inference she finds unsettling.

[Anne Marie Robinson]

He says, because afterwards there was talk of, quote, love and marriage in the relationship. That somehow that implies that I had consented in the past. It's not like we had any sort of real relationship in that context. The talk of love and marriage was entirely a way to manipulate and groom me and make me feel some sort of obligation towards him. The judge did not understand grooming. I mean, that's what this whole case is about. How a person in a position of power with a vulnerable child victim can exercise control over that person. And that's exactly what grooming is. And that's why it would have been impossible for me to consent. And the judge didn't get that. Yes, the laws were different back then, but everybody knew that what Walker was doing at the time was wrong. It's not like everyone thought it was okay. He hid it from people. He manipulated people. And so if what he was doing was okay, then why was it all a secret?

[Julie Ireton]

She now feels no one was advocating for her.

[Anne Marie Robinson]

My understanding is the Crown represents society. And their job is really to convict criminals for crimes that have been done and for the purpose of making society safer and having, I guess, to bring justice for the victims. But that's not something I feel that I got in this case. But there's really no one that really represents victims.

[Julie Ireton]

So why did this case fail before it even got to trial? Judges don't generally talk to the media. The Crown attorney won't do an interview. So I look for some outside analysis. After four and a half years in the criminal system, Ann Marie has as many questions as I do. Together, we pay a visit to Pamela Cross.

[Pamela Cross]

We're in Kingston, in my home.

[Julie Ireton]

Kingston is east of Toronto on Lake Ontario. There's a fire in the wood stove. Knickknacks and art fill cozy rooms. Pamela is a lawyer often advocating for women and victims of intimate partner violence and sexual assault.

[Pamela Cross]

I gotta look at my notes while I do this.

[Julie Ireton]

I've shared the transcript and other court documents with Pamela.

[Pamela Cross]

I was just getting so mad, actually, while I was looking at all of this stuff. So.

[Julie Ireton]

Silver streaks fall loose from the bun on the top of her head. Chunky jewelry hangs around her neck. But it's a facade. If provoked, she can swear like a sailor.

[Pamela Cross]

What the fuck?

[Julie Ireton]

She grabs her yellow legal pad full of notes on Anne Marie's case. But this isn't just about Anne Marie. And it's not just about something that happened decades ago. Pamela sees systemic issues at play in too many sexual assault cases.

[Pamela Cross]

I suppose as a lawyer, I shouldn't say what I'm about to say, which. But I'm going to say it. I don't encourage women to report to the police because I don't think the system works well for them. If a woman wants to do it, I will support her and help her function in that system.

[Julie Ireton]

But if Pamela was sexually assaulted tomorrow.

[Pamela Cross]

I can't imagine why I would report that to the police.

[Julie Ireton]

She points to the most recent stats to explain a 2019 report from Statistics Canada.

[Pamela Cross]

It's kind of like a funnel system, if you will. We have, like, up at the top, at the big part of the funnel. We have every sexual assault in Canada. And then really quickly it narrows down.

[Julie Ireton]

For every 100 incidents of sexual assault in this country, only six even get reported to the police.

[Pamela Cross]

Then the police have a decision to make. Will they or won't they lay a charge? And they do not lay a charge every time somebody reports. Then the Crown decides whether or not to proceed with a prosecution so they can dump a case there. The funnel gets narrower. Let's say the Crown decides to proceed with a prosecution. Then they have their Crown resolution meetings with the defense lawyer. The charge may be reduced. There might be a guilty plea. There might be an acquittal.

[Julie Ireton]

Or, as in Anne Marie's case. There's a dismissal, no trial, no conviction. The accused walks away. Pamela gives us her take on what happened in Ann Marie's case.

[Pamela Cross]

I'm going to be super careful here and say again that it seems to me, looking at it from outside, that the Crown might have been able to be more creative in what charges they decided to pursue.

[Julie Ireton]

She turns to Anne Marie.

[Pamela Cross]

I want to help with this story. I think it's an important story. I think what happened to you was a complete miscarriage of justice. But I don't want to be seen as the armchair coach saying, well, if I'd had been me, I would have done this. So I'm using that word might in there. I hope that doesn't sound too wishy washy, but it's easy to comment from the outside. It just seems to me that there were some other opportunities that they made a decision not to pursue.

[Julie Ireton]

She wonders if there wasn't a better, more appropriate charge other than the one count of rape. She reminds us just how out of date that charge is.

[Pamela Cross]

The criminal law was developed at a time when women weren't people, when women were largely seen as property of men. So if we want to go way back to British common law, if a woman was raped, it was seen as a crime against her husband or her father.

[Julie Ireton]

Yet that's the charge they used in Ann Marie's case.

[Pamela Cross]

Maybe they had good reasons for that that we're not aware of, but we're not aware of them.

[Julie Ireton]

Pamela also wonders if a different standard of proof is needed in these kinds of cases, be they historical or contemporary.

[Pamela Cross]

In a different kind of system. Maybe the judge might have said, well, you know what, I don't know at this point, like, she can't prove that she didn't consent, but the defense also can't prove that she did. And I'm willing to hear more like, let's let it go to a trial and let's hear all the evidence. And maybe, maybe in a sexual assault case, criminal lawyers will, you know, pick at my house for saying this, but maybe we need a different standard of proof. Maybe we need the standard of proof that we use in civil law and in family law on a balance of probabilities. She's 16, he's her teacher, she's in a hotel room in a strange city. The adult has been buying the young people alcohol.

[Julie Ireton]

And how about that key issue? What? The whole case hinged on consent. It's not just an issue in historical sexual assault cases.

[Pamela Cross]

Well, let me speak more broadly about consent. If that's okay. I think the law is great that says consent has to be affirmative. It's not merely the absence of refusal. Right. Silence is not consent. The other thing is, as girls, we're raised to be nice. We're fixers. Yeah. We just want it all to be okay, and so we comply. And complying is a lot different from consenting, but it can look like it's consenting.

[Anne Marie Robinson]

One other question I have about my case is he was only charged in my case for one event. Is it possible for him to be charged again for other incidents?

[Julie Ireton]

She's thinking about the times in cars, other band trips, and especially the incident in that closet at school. It all went on for more than a year.

[Pamela Cross]

Yeah. You can't be multiply charged for the same act, but these are distinct acts over a period of time.

[Julie Ireton]

Ann Marie leaves Pamela's house, still mulling this over.

[Anne Marie Robinson]

Wow.

[Julie Ireton]

So how have you been?

[Jeannie McKay]

Good.

[Julie Ireton]

A couple weeks after visiting Pamela Cross, Anne Marie's image pops up on my computer screen. She's put on a brave face.

[Anne Marie Robinson]

You know, I'm feeling increasingly better.

[Julie Ireton]

It for me, I know she's still stinging from the dismissal of her case after all these years. She feels like her former teacher still has control. And it's not just a feeling.

[Anne Marie Robinson]

He was allowed to manipulate and drag it out for four and a half years. You kind of go into it hoping that you get your power back as a victim, but I didn't feel that in that process.

[Julie Ireton]

To take away that sting, Ann Marie is trying to redirect the energy she was putting into the court case. She's doing more research and she wants to advocate for a better system, one that prevents abuse from happening in the first place, but when it does, provides recourse for survivors.

[Anne Marie Robinson]

There's no place for survivors of teacher sexual assault to convene, to share our stories, to find the latest research, to understand, grooming to. Yeah, just to share and not feel alone.

[Julie Ireton]

But there was one more appearance before a judge. In order for Ann Marie to tell her story, she had to get the publication ban lifted. That ban is automatic in any sexual assault case.

[Anne Marie Robinson]

Yeah, I'm kind of puzzled by that process. Usually I understand what the courts are doing and why, but I mean, I didn't actually ask for my name to be banned, but I guess it's standard practice, but I would have thought I would have had a say in it, but I didn't. I do find it odd then. It's like. It's almost like they don't want us to Tell our stories.

[Julie Ireton]

I can hear the frustration and loneliness in her voice. She knows telling her story is one way to reach other potential victims. She'd been so hopeful jm, the other survivor, would be in touch, but there's been no response.

[Anne Marie Robinson]

It was hard because I really have a lot that I want to say to her. Yeah, but I. The only contact I have now is her work email. So I sent quite a cryptic message yesterday to her work email, asking her to text me. I didn't really want to send an email there that was very explicit, but, I mean, certainly this is probably a shock to her too. So, yeah.

[Julie Ireton]

Maybe JM just doesn't want to talk, but I have this nagging feeling Ann Marie's emails simply haven't reached her. The one thing we know, this woman, JM is brave. She reported Walker to the regulator. She did that all on her own as an adult, and as a result, disturbing details of her teenage life are in a public report available online. Even if her name is blacked out, wouldn't she want to talk to Annemarie to know someone who shares her story? My name is Julie Ireton and I'm calling from CBC in Ottawa. I cold call others who were in the Royals in the early 1980s. One is now a lawyer. He doesn't want to be interviewed, but he knows jm. In fact, he heard from her recently. I pass along my contacts and Ann Marie's so he can share them with jm. Within hours, we both get messages. Her first message to Ann Marie still gives me chills.

[Jeannie McKay]

Hello, powerful woman. You'd better sit down. I am jm. I'm so sorry that you were abused by dw, too. I'm crazy busy with school just now, but maybe we can talk this Saturday sometime.

[Julie Ireton]

Then JM sends a message to me personally. I leap from my chair when it arrives. We've been trying to find her for months.

[Jeannie McKay]

Hello, Julie. I am jm. I'm not sure what information you have about me and about my story, but I texted Annemarie this morning to open the dialogue. I heard your podcast a few years ago. I will not speak with you on or off the record for now, but will most definitely discuss it with you in the future because I respect your work. I'm sorry to be so enigmatic just now, but I'll explain that as well. Anyway, you've got me and you've got my story eventually. Respectfully, jm.

[Julie Ireton]

When Derek Johnson was diagnosed with cerebral palsy, his family thought that he would never be able to speak. And then they met Professor Anna Stubblefield, and she believed that with the right technique, he could say what was on his mind. But what began as an opportunity turned into accusations of sexual assault. I'm Kathleen Goldhar, and this week on Crime Story, we dive into the complicated questions surrounding the doc. Tell Them youm Love Me. Find Crime Story wherever you get your podcasts. I was. I was really shocked to see that message. Tell me, how did she get in touch with you? What happened? Ann Marie and I meet up the next day. We're almost giddy. It's winter 2022, and Covid is a threat, so we're both masked. But I can still see she's beaming. In fact, I've never seen her looking so happy, so relieved. She's clutching her phone, eager for the next ping of a text.

[Anne Marie Robinson]

Well, because of your persistence, she got my message that I wanted to reach out to her and that our stories were, like, virtually identical. It's funny because we just. I just texted for a couple hours last night. It was kind of like, for me, breaking a profound loneliness that I can't even describe to you. Like, she's really the only person who could understand, and particularly with this individual because his way of going about things was so manipulative and twisted.

[Julie Ireton]

Ann Marie and JM text daily for weeks. I'm eager for her to be ready to chat with me. While we wait, we continue our search. Ann Marie and I both wonder if there are others who went to authorities over the years. So I file freedom of Information requests to school boards to see if they have any complaint files to share. I write to all Walkers former employers, the Toronto District School Board, the Peel District School Board, and the York Region District School Board. But each board writes back. No files exist, or if they do, they can't share. Before he taught at Ann Marie School, Walker taught just west of the city of Toronto. His first job was at Port Credit Secondary School.

[Anne Marie Robinson]

I would be interested if you could try to find if they're still alive. So long ago, the people that he taught at in Port Credit Credit.

[Julie Ireton]

Yeah, I can. I can totally do that. If, if you're able to send me the link to that yearbook and. Yes, and I'll try and search out some of these people.

[Anne Marie Robinson]

If it is as he said, that he was punched in the face by a parent of a student who he had a sexual relationship of some sort, then I do think people might remember.

[Julie Ireton]

That the music teacher was at port credit in 1974. 75. So long ago. Even the young teachers back then would be in their 70s now, parents would be even older. Would anyone remember a story about a father punching a teacher? This could just take me down some more rabbit holes. I also contact the licensing body, the Ontario College of Teachers. I ask for any public documents collected during its investigation of the teacher. The college does provide a few files, including Doug Walker's resume. It shows he taught at seven different schools, sometimes only staying a year or two and then moving on to the next. But something is puzzling, something missing from that cv. There's no mention of the decades he spent with the prestigious military reserve band, the Royal Regiment of Canada. He was paid to play in that band. And he rose through the ranks to Master Warrant Officer and assistant conductor. And we now know from jm, he also introduced her to the Royals band. On his. His CV on LinkedIn, the Royals isn't mentioned.

[Anne Marie Robinson]

Yeah, that just didn't make sense to me.

[Julie Ireton]

I've contacted Doug Walker. He doesn't want to answer my questions about his involvement with the Royal Regiment of Canada. A band rehearsal at Fort York in the 1980s posted to YouTube by a former band member. Walker appears in the video. He's tall, mustached. Barry Hodgins played in that band with Walker many years ago. He also taught with him at Anne Marie School, Eastern Commerce. We first heard from Barry in episode two. I've seen Barry Hodgins in yearbook photos. He wore a suit, held a trumpet. Barry suspected something inappropriate was going on between the other music teacher and Anne Marie, but he never reported it.

[F]

I saw it happening, but. And I wanted to step in and maybe should have stepped in at that point.

[Julie Ireton]

He tells me Walker brought several students to the Royals band practices.

[F]

Yeah, I thought that was. I thought that was. But mind you, in saying that, like with the Royals, a lot of the. Some of the music teachers brought their excelled music students, and I emphasize the word excelled because the Royals was a very good band.

[Julie Ireton]

He says Walker was in his element there.

[F]

He was liked tremendously in that band. As I say, Doug was a warrant officer. And remember the fact too, that in that band, Doug was one of the assistant conductors. To be honest with you, in the regiment, Doug had a lot of respect. He was respected in the military very highly.

[Julie Ireton]

And as far as Hodgins is concerned, the whole band was a big deal.

[F]

I mean, we played for Prince Charles, who's now King Charles, we played for Diana. We played for a lot of members of the state. We went all over the place. And in some cases, when we went to some of these things, Doug was in charge. And it Seems ironic when I say this, you've got to have good character, get in a band like that. Because if you're not liked, and I don't mean in a sexual way, if you're not liked, you don't last.

[Julie Ireton]

Walker must have been well liked. He lasted. I requested and received Walker's official military records from the Canadian government. The document details his ranks. He was in the Reserve from 1966 to 1990, 24 years. Several other former students tell me he introduced them to the band, too. They carry great memories from that time. Some went on to military careers. Walker ran summer band programs for young reservists across the country for years.

[F]

On his resume, does he say he was a warrant officer?

[Julie Ireton]

No, no, he doesn't say anything.

[Anne Marie Robinson]

Let me just.

[Julie Ireton]

I'm going to pull out the military file. No. On his resume, there's not one word, nothing about having been in the military band. Nothing.

[F]

Well, that's very strange. It's very strange. You see, that shocks the heck out of me because Doug was there for a long time.

[Julie Ireton]

The Royal Regiment of Canada Band played a key role in Anne Marie's own history with the former teacher.

[Anne Marie Robinson]

The band is important because it seemed to be, in many respects with me, the enabler. Right. It was the reason the music teacher used to get me there once a week and get me alone. And a teacher shouldn't be able to.

[Julie Ireton]

Do that even in the summertime. She says it gave him access to her. Annemarie and I decide it's time to head to the home of the Royals. Okay, where are we now?

[Anne Marie Robinson]

We are at what I always refer to as the armories in Fort York, downtown Toronto.

[Julie Ireton]

It's a chilly winter day in Toronto. We're bundled up. There's a sharp wind coming off Lake Ontario, and we leave our masks on after getting out of the cab. An archway marks the entrance to this historic Canadian Forces facility. Inside is a large drill hall. I've seen the videos of the band practicing here, which is where Walker brought.

[Anne Marie Robinson]

Me and a bunch of his other students to play in the Royal Regiment Band. They're a very good band, and I learned a lot musically and, you know, I was 15 when I started playing here. And after practice, Walker would buy alcohol. I'm sad that the adults of the day, the people in the band, didn't do anything. And if I had been the only person that he brought here, that would be one thing. But I know that he brought other people here.

[Julie Ireton]

It's a weekday, yet it's eerily quiet. Lights are on inside but no one seems to be around this entire facility. And when you played, like, would you go on parade from here? Like, did that kind of thing happen or did you.

[Anne Marie Robinson]

Well, I know I wasn't even a member of the military because I was too young to be in the military and so I did not march with the band. When they did their formal marching stuff, I didn't do it with them. The music room is up there in that corner. But I would love to get in and walk around. I wonder if they'd let us.

[Julie Ireton]

We knock, but no one comes to the door. A locked, seemingly empty building isn't going to provide many answers. Don't think anybody's going to come.

[Anne Marie Robinson]

No.

[Julie Ireton]

I've already put in a request to the Canadian Department of National Defence. This armoury and the Royal Regiment of Canada band fall under its responsibility. This is the message I receive from National Defence. Quote, any and all forms of misconduct is completely unacceptable and has no place in the Canadian Armed Forces. These behaviours negatively impact our collective well being, morale and operational effectiveness. Every allegation is taken seriously and investigated accordingly. In this case, there have been no records of any complaints against this individual. The former member was released from the Canadian Armed Forces a number of years ago. Officials be it the military, school boards, teachers, courts, don't appear to have the answers Ann Marie and I are looking for. But we have made some progress. JM has been back in touch with us. She's ready to meet and reveal her identity to the world.

[Anne Marie Robinson]

Oh, yay. Hi.

[Jeannie McKay]

Hi.

[Anne Marie Robinson]

How are you guys doing? Good.

[Julie Ireton]

Nice to see you.

[Anne Marie Robinson]

Yeah, nice to see you and Jeannie and me all together.

[Jeannie McKay]

Wow.

[Julie Ireton]

Jeannie McKay, JM she joins AnneMarie and me on one of our regular calls.

[Anne Marie Robinson]

We used to talk about this genie that how great it would be if we could find you. Yeah, I mean, I've wanted to find you for 14 years, but yeah.

[Jeannie McKay]

And I didn't even know. Well, I thought you existed, but I didn't know you existed.

[Julie Ireton]

Jeannie. A teacher is joining us from her quiet office at school. A big calendar and cards from students are pinned on the wall behind her. Ann Marie is at home with her little dog.

[Anne Marie Robinson]

I just have to let my dog out. Sorry. Okay, no problem.

[Julie Ireton]

They're both all smiles. So glad to be together. It's been two months since Jeie first contacted us.

[Jeannie McKay]

I cried. I got that message and I said, we found her. I knew she existed. I knew someone existed from the other school. And I just sobbed and sobbed and my husband just held on to me while I Cried. I said, we found her. We've got it. There's more of us. I thought he was our little predator, but it's our story. And I texted Ann Marie that I was JM and I was so sorry that it happened to her, too. And the first thing she said to me was how sorry she was that she hadn't been able to stop him. And that broke my heart. She'd been carrying that for all those years, and that's not her guilt to carry. She didn't have to feel guilt that he got to me. And I just was heartbroken for her.

[Anne Marie Robinson]

It broke the cycle of loneliness that. That's really the thing that it did most for me. This has always sat in my mind as something kind of surreal. And I was in severe denial about it my whole life. I couldn't process it. So by having Genie, it. It makes it real. And I. And as I said, jeannie, you're my hero.

[Julie Ireton]

It's almost like they've known each other for years, and there's a gentleness in how they approach each other, probably because they've lived the same experiences. They share an uncomfortable link to the music teacher, but he also introduced them to the prestige of the Royal Regiment of Canada band. Ann Marie was about 15 when he first took her there to a practice. A couple years later, he took Genie.

[Jeannie McKay]

Let's see. So it would be probably around the end of grade 11, so similar age. And he was talking about his military band a lot, all the time, and how he's going to get some of us to come down.

[Julie Ireton]

Genie and some of her high school bandmates.

[Jeannie McKay]

Yeah. So the band had a little. A mess room sort of beside the great big band room in the Armories. And you. I think you've seen that. You went there with Ann Marie.

[Julie Ireton]

Yeah, we didn't go into the building. We were looking in the windows, basically, yeah.

[Jeannie McKay]

Oh, that's too bad. Yeah. So upstairs there's a big, huge band room, and the windows looked out, and so they would serve beer out of the fridge, and we. We would all stand around drinking beer, sit around drinking beer and laughing afterwards.

[Julie Ireton]

And for Jeannie, that's where some of her first sexual experiences happened with her teacher.

[Jeannie McKay]

People would leave and it would happen right in there.

[Julie Ireton]

So, like, sexual activity was happening right at Fort York, too?

[Jeannie McKay]

Yep, Right in the armories. I look back and holy moly. Like, people could have walked right in.

[Anne Marie Robinson]

I'm quite angry about the fact that the people in the military band and others didn't, like, somebody didn't do something.

[Julie Ireton]

Yeah, but there are no records of any official complaints. And just like with Anne Marie, Doug Walker says his relationship with Jeannie McKay was consensual. Next time on the Band Teacher Jeannie tells us her story and she tells Ann Marie they aren't alone.

[Jeannie McKay]

Yeah, it was after band practice and we rolled the windows down and he actually leaned down and gave us all goodnight kisses with tongue.

[Julie Ireton]

And we hear about a haunting chance encounter with her former teacher on a trip to Disneyland.

[Jeannie McKay]

I just trembled and trembled. I couldn't see. I couldn't see anything. I said, there's a guy on this bus. He molested me in high school. He shouldn't be here. He shouldn't be around students. You can't have him around kids.

[Julie Ireton]

The band teacher is investigated, reported, written and hosted by me. Julie Ireton. Allison Cook is the story and script editor, producer, sound designer and and mixer. Felice Chin is our executive producer and story editor. Ev St. Laurent is our legal advisor. Jennifer Chen, Amanda Pfeffer and Jen White provided valuable production advice. Thanks to Malcolm Campbell for reading the Judge's Decision and special thanks to the folks at CBC Podcast for their support. The managing editor of CBC Ottawa is Drake Fenton. If you want to binge the whole series, subscribe to CBC True Crime Premium on Apple Podcasts. Just click on the link in the show description or binge listen for free by logging in to CBC Listen. If you or someone you know has been sexually abused, community resources can help. Reach out to a trusted person sexual assault center or rape crisis center in your area. For more CBC Podcasts, go to CBC CA Podcasts.