S33 E1: The Olson Tapes | Calls From a Killer

Summary

Summary of CBC’s Uncover Podcast Episode: "Uncover: Calls From a Killer – S33 E1: The Olson Tapes | Calls From a Killer"

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Introduction

In the premiere episode of Season 33 of CBC’s Uncover titled “Calls From a Killer,” listeners are immersed in the chilling true story of Clifford Olson, one of Canada’s most notorious serial killers. Hosted by Arlene Bynon, the episode delves deep into her secretive journalistic endeavors, chronicling her clandestine phone conversations with Olson while he was incarcerated. Accompanied by legendary journalist Peter Worthington’s grandson, Nathaniel Frum, Arlene unearths decades-old secrets surrounding Olson’s crimes, the shortcomings of law enforcement, and the profound impact on the victims' families.

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Background on Clifford Olson

The episode opens by setting the historical context of Clifford Olson’s heinous crimes. Olson was convicted in 1982 for the murders of eleven children and teenagers between 1980 and 1981 in British Columbia. His brutal methods included abduction, rape, and murder, leaving a lasting scar on Canadian society.

Notable Quote:

Clifford Olson [00:12]: “...Trudeau would murder no fewer than 43 people. And he would only spend seven years in prison.”

This early quote underscores the alarming disparity between the severity of Olson’s crimes and his prison sentence, highlighting systemic failures.

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Arlene Bynon's Interaction with Olson

Arlene Bynon, a seasoned journalist with a profound interest in true crime, became intrigued by Olson’s case. Her curiosity was piqued after responding to a letter from Olson, who sought to share his story beyond prison walls. Despite a gag order preventing Olson from speaking to the media, Arlene managed to establish a covert line of communication, recording hundreds of hours of conversations with him.

Notable Quote:

Arlene Bynon [12:58]: “What drove him to kill? Could he have been stopped? And what dark secrets did he still carry?”

This rhetorical questioning sets the stage for Arlene’s investigative journey into understanding Olson’s psyche.

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The Nature of the Calls

The heart of the episode revolves around the clandestine phone calls between Arlene and Olson. These conversations were meticulously recorded and held within Peter Worthington's archives. Arlene's interactions with Olson were marked by a peculiar blend of politeness and underlying menace, providing a unique glimpse into the mind of a serial killer.

Notable Quote:

Clifford Olson [04:33]: “I was drinking, but yet I knew what I was doing at all times, yet I didn't give a fuck.”

This candid admission from Olson reveals his awareness and calculated nature, challenging common perceptions of serial killers as uncontrollably violent.

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Meeting Olson in Prison

One of the most gripping moments detailed in the episode is Arlene’s and Nathaniel’s visit to Kingston Penitentiary to confront Olson face-to-face. This encounter was laden with tension and fear, as Olson recognized Arlene despite efforts to maintain secrecy. The interaction culminated in an unsettling exchange where Olson winked at Arlene, leaving a lasting impression of his manipulative and threatening demeanor.

Notable Quote:

Clifford Olson [18:29]: “And you guys get things going, eh? Okie doke. Okay. And I'll stay out of trouble.”

Olson’s casual yet ominous farewell underscores his unpredictable and dangerous nature.

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Relationship with Peter Worthington

Peter Worthington, a renowned journalist and Arlene’s mentor, played a crucial role in facilitating the recordings with Olson. His involvement provided the necessary cover and expertise to navigate the complexities of interacting with a high-profile serial killer. Peter’s legacy and his own extensive work in journalism added depth and credibility to Arlene’s investigation.

Notable Quote:

Arlene Bynon [19:42]: “I wanted cover. And legendary journalist Peter Worthington, he would do.”

This highlights the strategic partnership between Arlene and Peter, emphasizing the lengths taken to uncover the truth.

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Insights into Olson's Psychology

Throughout the calls, Arlene sought to unravel the psychological motivations behind Olson’s actions. While many psychiatric analyses suggested childhood trauma and severe psychopathy, Olson himself dismissed these notions, attributing his behavior to personal choices devoid of external influence.

Notable Quote:

Clifford Olson [25:09]: “I question a lot of that, too. I think a lot of that is bullshit, Arlene. I think a lot of those people are not sexually abused...”

Olson’s outright rejection of psychological theories challenges conventional understanding of criminal behavior, adding complexity to his character study.

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The RCMP Deal and Its Implications

A pivotal revelation in the episode is the controversial deal between the Royal Canadian Mounted Police (RCMP) and Olson. Faced with the enormity of his crimes, the RCMP negotiated a deal where they paid Olson $10,000 for each body he led them to, totaling $100,000. This agreement, unprecedented in Canadian law enforcement, raised numerous ethical and procedural questions, including the incomplete investigation into his crimes.

Notable Quote:

Clifford Olson [29:15]: “See, we closed the deal here. We closed the deal... Look for bodies.”

This quote underscores the transactional nature of the agreement and its role in facilitating Olson’s ability to continue his spree.

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The Legacy and Seeking Closure

Decades after Olson’s conviction, Arlene Bynon and Nathaniel Frum revisit the case to seek closure and uncover the forgotten truths. Their investigation aims to provide answers to the victims' families, who remained in anguish due to unresolved questions about Olson's actions and the RCMP’s handling of the case.

Notable Quote:

Arlene Bynon [29:42]: “...I think that cash for bodies deal happened and that we forgot about it.”

This reflection highlights the societal tendency to move past traumatic events without fully addressing systemic failures.

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Conclusion

“Calls From a Killer” serves as a profound exploration of one of Canada’s darkest criminal cases through the lens of dedicated journalism. Arlene Bynon’s relentless pursuit of the truth, coupled with the archival recordings and personal narratives, offers a comprehensive understanding of Clifford Olson’s impact on law enforcement, media, and the victims' families. By reopening these sealed boxes and revisiting the ordeal, the episode not only honors the memories of the lost but also challenges listeners to reflect on the complexities of justice and the enduring quest for closure.

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Key Takeaways:

1. Systemic Failures: The RCMP’s unprecedented deal with Olson highlights significant gaps in investigative processes and ethical considerations within law enforcement.

2. Psychological Complexity: Olson’s denial of psychological explanations for his behavior complicates the narrative around criminal psychology and challenges existing frameworks.

3. Journalistic Integrity: Arlene Bynon’s secretive and persistent approach underscores the vital role of investigative journalism in uncovering hidden truths and holding institutions accountable.

4. Enduring Trauma: The unresolved nature of Olson’s crimes continues to reverberate through the victims' families, emphasizing the long-term impact of such tragedies on communities.

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Notable Quotes with Timestamps:

• Clifford Olson [04:33]: “I was drinking, but yet I knew what I was doing at all times, yet I didn't give a fuck.”

• Clifford Olson [18:29]: “And you guys get things going, eh? Okie doke. Okay. And I'll stay out of trouble.”

• Clifford Olson [25:09]: “I question a lot of that, too. I think a lot of that is bullshit, Arlene. I think a lot of those people are not sexually abused...”

• Clifford Olson [29:15]: “See, we closed the deal here. We closed the deal... Look for bodies.”

• Arlene Bynon [29:42]: “...I think that cash for bodies deal happened and that we forgot about it.”

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Final Thoughts

This episode is a compelling watch for true crime enthusiasts and those interested in the intricate dance between media and criminal justice. Arlene Bynon and Nathaniel Frum’s collaboration not only sheds light on a forgotten chapter of Canadian history but also serves as a testament to the enduring need for truth and accountability in the face of darkness.

Transcript

[Arlene Bynon]

In 1977, the Hells Angels Motorcycle Club.

[Clifford Olson]

Opened up a chapter in Montreal.

[Arlene Bynon]

Their enforcer was a man named Yves Trudeau.

[Clifford Olson]

And over the course of his criminal.

[Arlene Bynon]

Career, Trudeau would murder no fewer than 43 people. And he would only spend seven years in prison.

[Clifford Olson]

I'm Kathleen Goldhar and this week on.

[Arlene Bynon]

Crime the sordid tale of Canada's deadliest assassin.

[Clifford Olson]

Find Crime Story wherever you get your podcasts.

[Nathaniel Frum]

This is a CBC podcast. The following episode contains strong language and descriptions of violence. Please take care when listening. Whenever I stayed at my grandparents house as a kid, there was a rule. Always pick up the phone. Because you never knew who could be calling for my grandpa Pete. A Soviet spy, a cabinet minister, a serial killer. Growing up, I'd learned what my grandpa did for a living through the stories he'd share at the holidays or summers at the lake. It wasn't that he was bragging. Pete was actually really humble. He just had stories no one else could tell. And he never told the same one twice because he never needed to. There was the time he stood just feet away from Lee Harvey Oswald as Jack Ruby pulled the trigger. The time a bullet went through his sleeve in Algiers as fighting between the Algerians and French raged. The time he met the Beatles in Hong Kong. He didn't even think to mention that one until a couple years before he died. Long story short, he thought they all needed haircuts. My grandpa, Peter Worthington was a newspaperman. And for some time he was one of the newspaper men in Toronto. He was a roving foreign correspondent, chasing every conflict through the 50s and 60s until helping found his own paper, the Toronto Sun, a paper that still exists today. Pete continued to write until his death in 2013. The last thing he wrote was his own obituary. My grandpa left behind a bird's nest of papers, photos and tapes, fragments of his extraordinary career. It was all packed and sent away to Canada's National Archives by my grandmother Yvonne. But six years after Pete's death, I brought those boxes back. By this time I was in my mid-20s, trying to make it as a screenwriter in LA. Trying to find my next story. What if it lived in the boxes that Pete had left behind? I popped one of his hundreds of cassettes into a player tape. 12, 1991.

[Clifford Olson]

Okay. Hello, Peter. Yeah, I called last night there and I can appreciate not calling you at home, but I thought sometimes for an emergency or anything that comes up, Peter, you know, doesn't bother me but, you know, keep peace in the home.

[Nathaniel Frum]

This man hoping to keep the peace at home is my grandpa Pete.

[Clifford Olson]

Yeah, I know. Definitely. I mean, that comes first, you know? But I thought, like, if anything of an emergency ever come up and one would have to give, the only emergency that would come up, would you be going over the wall? Well, or if I kill somebody.

[Nathaniel Frum]

On the other end of the phone call is a man named Clifford Olson, a man convicted in 1982 of killing 11 children and teenagers, the oldest of them 18, the youngest of them nine. Pete's archives housed hundreds of hours of calls with Olson. They began in 1990, and they went on for years. And they were placed by Olson from prison.

[Clifford Olson]

Now, what I'm saying is. Oh, Jesus, you got some drill going. Can you hear it?

[Arlene Bynon]

Yeah.

[Clifford Olson]

What's that? A fire drill. You know, they're fixing the cells. Yeah. You still can hear me, don't you?

[Nathaniel Frum]

There was an unsettling amount of polite small talk. I could hear my grandfather patiently humoring Olson.

[Clifford Olson]

Certainly. And I wrote John Christian a nasty letter that goes out today. And I told him he better answer his letter. Who's Christian? Chretien. Oh, Chretien.

[Nathaniel Frum]

Yeah, Jean Chretien Hulson was writing the Prime Minister why he didn't answer a.

[Clifford Olson]

Reply to the letter that I sent him. Blah, blah, blah, blah.

[Nathaniel Frum]

Oh, yeah, you know, but once in a while, you'd be reminded who's on the line.

[Clifford Olson]

I was drinking, but yet I knew what I was doing at all times, yet I didn't give a fuck. I knew deliberately that I was gonna go out day after day, year after year, pick these persons up, have sex with them, then kill them. You follow me? Yeah. And then destroy of all evidence.

[Nathaniel Frum]

But Pete wasn't recording these tapes alone. It became clear he had a partner, and she was where it all started.

[Arlene Bynon]

Okay, so Peter's here now, so we can both.

[Clifford Olson]

Hello, Peter.

[Arlene Bynon]

Hello, Peter.

[Clifford Olson]

He must be going for a coffee.

[Arlene Bynon]

No, he's here.

[Clifford Olson]

No, no, I just got back. Okay.

[Arlene Bynon]

We're all playing music.

[Clifford Olson]

What I said about the Freedom of Information Act.

[Arlene Bynon]

Yeah, I didn't tell him that, but you might as well. You want to repeat it?

[Clifford Olson]

Well, no, I just wanted short. I access my stuff from the US Department of Justice.

[Nathaniel Frum]

She was a journalist herself.

[Arlene Bynon]

CHFI Radio.

[Clifford Olson]

Yes, Clifford Olson's calling. We accept charge.

[Arlene Bynon]

Yes, I will.

[Clifford Olson]

Thank you.

[Nathaniel Frum]

Although Olson often didn't treat her like one.

[Clifford Olson]

Thank you. Operator. That should have been Senator Clifford Olson.

[Arlene Bynon]

Senator, are you now?

[Clifford Olson]

Right. How are ya? Where did you have to go?

[Arlene Bynon]

I had to go to the doctors.

[Clifford Olson]

No.

[Arlene Bynon]

Mm.

[Clifford Olson]

Not pregnant?

[Arlene Bynon]

No.

[Clifford Olson]

Oh, okay. Hey, I hope we don't play this on, you know, during your interviews and that. No, I will edit that part out.

[Nathaniel Frum]

From what I could hear, she was also patient with Olson. But then there was this exchange.

[Arlene Bynon]

And during this two and a half years you have never got angry at Peter. But you get angry at me. I mean, you and I have had arguments. You've hung up on me, you've yelled at me, you've said very nasty things about me behind my back. And then on the other hand, tell.

[Clifford Olson]

Me one nasty thing I said about your back.

[Arlene Bynon]

You've called me a bitch.

[Clifford Olson]

Yes, I have. And I think I called you that on the phone too.

[Arlene Bynon]

And I don't think I am a bitch. I think that I'm just very clear, that's all.

[Clifford Olson]

You have not come in to interview me. I don't think that is a proper perspective for a reporter. Now you might have reasons for that. You may be scared of a serial killer. What am I going to do, hold you up against the wall with a pencil? So I'm asking you is why haven't you come in with Peter to visit?

[Arlene Bynon]

You think it's cause I'm frightened?

[Clifford Olson]

I'm telling you, Arlene, yes I do.

[Arlene Bynon]

Are you not frightened? No.

[Nathaniel Frum]

I paused the tape and scribbled on a post it Find Arlene. This is Calls from a killer from CBC's Uncover. I'm Nathaniel Frum.

[Arlene Bynon]

And I'm Arlene Bynon. This is episode one, the Olsen Tapes. You're listening to the best of Chronicle. Good morning, I'm Arlene Bynon. This Tuesday in Florida State Prison, Theodore Robert Bundy was executed for the murder of two Florida co eds and a 12 year old girl. This is me about 35 years ago. I was hosting one of Toronto's most popular afternoon radio news programs. I got to do it all on this job, reporting hard news, producing documentaries, interviewing celebrities and politicians. But this week in 1989, I took listeners deep into the case of Ted Bundy on Chronicle. This week we dedicated an entire program to try and find out why this killer became an enigma of US criminal justice. It was about 10 years after his trial, but the story still fascinated me. Ted Bundy was certainly not the typical killer most of us have in our minds. And this charm explains his celebrity even in death. It also explains how he lured a bevy of unsuspecting young girls to their graves. I saw myself in his victims and I was desperate to learn what could make ordinary men monsters. In Bundy's case, there was a journalist who'd been able to ask the question to Bundy himself. I'd like to welcome to Chronicle Stephen Michaud. Good afternoon.

[Clifford Olson]

Good afternoon, Arlene. How are you today?

[Arlene Bynon]

I'm wondering how you are today. Stephen Michaux had been granted extensive access to Bundy. Over months, he was able to extract information from Bundy that police never were. His interviews led to some of the only insight the public really had into Bundy's crimes, into this new kind of killer. I remember working on the story and interviewing you many years ago and learning the lesson that the person that I thought was lurking in the shadows for me may have a nice suit on and may be handsome. I learned that lesson. Do you think anybody else did?

[Clifford Olson]

Well, we've gotten a lot of mail from women who have said, you know, thank you for writing that book the way you did. And yes, my life has been changed as a result of knowing about Ted Bundy. But I certainly. I don't think that we as a society have learned any enduring lessons from Ted Bundy either. How to identify future Ted Bundys who are out there right now, I'm sure, as was Ted. He was certain that he was not only not alone, but that there were a lot of killers out there who were far more successful than he.

[Arlene Bynon]

By this time, serial killers had become sort of a beat for me. I interviewed experts, I learned what I could of the research that existed back then, and. And it all led to me being interviewed about Bundy on national tv. What I didn't know then was that the show was playing on a TV in Kingston Penitentiary, a maximum security prison home to Canada's most notorious criminals. Soon after the show aired, I got a letter. It was really a taunt. It read, I have a story to tell. I saw you on TV talking about Ted Bundy. I think if you want to know about the mind of a serial killer, you should talk to a real serial killer. It was signed Clifford Robert Olson. Nearly a decade earlier, Olson was one of the first to get the label of serial killer in Canada. From the end of 1980 to the summer of 1981, Olson had abducted, raped and killed 11 young people in the province of British Columbia.

[Clifford Olson]

From May to August, the families had to face the grim news. Their sons and daughters had been murdered, stabbed repeatedly or beaten to death.

[Arlene Bynon]

As news broke of his crimes, Canadians grappled with the graphic details, with the violence he inflicted against children.

[Clifford Olson]

All were nude. They are both male and female, picked.

[Arlene Bynon]

Up while walking, hitchhiking, waiting for a.

[Clifford Olson]

Bus, or looking for a job. Until recently, there was still hope. Some would be found alive.

[Arlene Bynon]

I didn't respond to Olson's letter right away. I'd done enough reporting on psychopathic killers to know it would only feed his ego, and I didn't want to give him that. This man had had murdered children, and now he was reaching out to me from prison. But the case of Clifford Olson stayed with me, a case that I knew there was more to, because 10 years after his arrest, there were still so many questions left unanswered. What drove him to kill? Could he have been stopped? And what dark secrets did he still carry? So a week later, I wrote back to Olson. What is your story?

[Nathaniel Frum]

For a brief moment in the year 2000, the City of Phoenix was on fire.

[Clifford Olson]

You could see a glow in the sky.

[Nathaniel Frum]

An arsonist was on the loose.

[Arlene Bynon]

How many more ways can we fuck this thing up?

[Nathaniel Frum]

The culprit will shock you.

[Clifford Olson]

I had several dreams about that house behind me. Or dreams about setting the fire. One night, I did.

[Nathaniel Frum]

From novel and Sony Music Entertainment, listen to the arsonist next door. Subscribe on Apple podcasts to binge all episodes now or listen weekly wherever you get your podcasts.

[Clifford Olson]

Collect call for Eileen Bynon. Yes, from Clifford Olson. Will you accept the charge?

[Arlene Bynon]

Yes, I will.

[Clifford Olson]

Hello.

[Arlene Bynon]

Hi. I was stunned when I got that first call. It was about a month after I responded to Olson's letter. But I knew he was only allowed to talk to his lawyers from prison, not the media. Yeah.

[Clifford Olson]

Okay, listen, just don't let anything out that I'm calling you or we're not doing. We're cut right off.

[Arlene Bynon]

Yeah, I'm not. No, you get what I'm getting at? I'm not doing a story this week on or anything.

[Clifford Olson]

No, but I'm saying that way we're okay.

[Arlene Bynon]

Are you supposed to call the media? You are obviously allowed telephone calls.

[Clifford Olson]

Yeah, this is a conference call going through to my lawyer, which you're at his office. Arlene, you're the first interview I ever gave in the media. Very first.

[Arlene Bynon]

For whatever reason, Olson had chosen me. And from the start, I knew. I wanted to understand why he did what he did. What I don't understand is who did you hate? Did you hate women?

[Clifford Olson]

No.

[Arlene Bynon]

Because it seemed like you might have hated women. You know, we talked about sort of living with yourself. We all have to live with ourselves and realize what we've done and come to grips with it. Does it help that part of you as well to talk about it?

[Clifford Olson]

Well, really. See, if, being a Christian, I'm forgiven in the sense that it's over and Done with. And I'm not the whine and cry at what happened. But still, being human, I have those inner thoughts and feelings that. Jesus, how could me, of anybody in North America, commit such things?

[Arlene Bynon]

As I listen to these tapes, I feel right there, back in the moment. I'm young, in my mid-20s, and hungry, brimming with confidence, thinking if I could just ask the right questions the right way, I would understand what made him the way he was. Over time, I would learn a lot about him. What did the psychiatrist call you?

[Clifford Olson]

He said that I'm normal.

[Nathaniel Frum]

That's it?

[Arlene Bynon]

They say you're normal?

[Clifford Olson]

Yeah.

[Arlene Bynon]

What psychiatrists actually found was that Olson was a severe psychopath. One doctor put it this way. Even people who have met individuals who are called psychopathic or antisocial cannot bring themselves to believe that there may be individuals of this gross nature. It's too impossible to accept.

[Clifford Olson]

Well, do I. Do I sound like a highly organized psychopath to you? My God, lady, Go ahead.

[Arlene Bynon]

I don't know. I mean, I don't. I'm not a psychiatrist.

[Clifford Olson]

Go ahead. You're a reporter.

[Arlene Bynon]

I'm a reporter. Okay. Clifford, can you. Do you think as a reporter these calls were about more than learning about Olson himself? I hoped I could do something that the police couldn't. I hoped I could get more information out of him. Because like many families in the B.C. area where he prowled, I believe there were more than 11 victims. The authorities had long closed the case. They wanted it shut. Olson was serving 11 concurrent life sentences, one for each murder he confessed to. But I knew the parents were still waiting to know for certain to lay their kids to rest in a way that brought peace and closure. And if there was a chance I could find something new, I had to try. No matter how Olson tried to play games and spin lines, you know, I.

[Clifford Olson]

Mean, you haven't met me personally, but my God, you know, this is a tragedy that can't be put into words. And no matter what I say to the parents or anybody else is not going to bring those children back. I have what's called inner peace in the sense that it still bothers me today. Certainly, I wouldn't be human if it didn't. And it will bother me till the day of my death. But you gotta put things in the past, and you gotta look to the future along the line somewhere.

[Arlene Bynon]

If I wanted to continue these calls, I had to keep them secret. But I did confide in someone, a friend and mentor who wanted to help. I've asked Peter Worthington to join Us today. And he's. He's here.

[Clifford Olson]

Oh, okay.

[Arlene Bynon]

And he's talking with us on the line. I think all three of us can talk.

[Clifford Olson]

Hello, Peter. Yeah, hi, Clifford. How you doing? Not bad, thank you.

[Arlene Bynon]

Peter Worthington is, of course, Nat's Grandpa Pete.

[Clifford Olson]

I just ramble on here, you know, and she just listens and, you know, she. Huh? Yes, yes, yes. I never give her a chance to get anything in sideways. Yeah, well, I have the same. Same problem.

[Arlene Bynon]

However, I had explained it to myself. I knew that what I was doing when it eventually came out would be met with criticism. Olson had been banned from talking to the media by a gag order and posed after he'd sent letters detailing his crimes to the families of the victims. I'd be accused of giving him a platform and the attention he desperately craved. So I wanted cover. And legendary journalist Peter Worthington, he would do.

[Clifford Olson]

You know, I think the big question is why you did it and the story behind the thing. There was never a trial, so nobody knows. Without going into details, what are the reasons why? Right, I've got them. I know why. I answered that myself in my own thing. But I gotta have something, somebody to write. I'm not asking. No money.

[Arlene Bynon]

There are parts of Olson's story he wouldn't tell us on these early calls. Okay. We have to give up the studio now.

[Clifford Olson]

Okay. And it was good talking to you, Peter. Okay. Good talking to you, Clifford. Okay. And you guys get things going, eh? Okie doke. Okay. And I'll stay out of trouble.

[Arlene Bynon]

Okay.

[Clifford Olson]

Okay.

[Arlene Bynon]

Bye.

[Clifford Olson]

Bye.

[Arlene Bynon]

But soon, Olson was calling Us Weekly.

[Clifford Olson]

Hi, how are you?

[Arlene Bynon]

I'm fine. How are you?

[Clifford Olson]

About 10 minutes late. I called the bottom number.

[Arlene Bynon]

It started to feel. Well, not normal, but certainly routine. Sometimes he would call me just to tell me about what he was watching.

[Clifford Olson]

Got a movie on. It's a comedy movie on baseball. This was really.

[Arlene Bynon]

Or to pretend he was a radio dj coming live all the way from.

[Clifford Olson]

The Kingston Penitentiary, your local dj, Clifford Robert Olsen, in stereo. These records and these tapes are all dedicated to Arlene.

[Arlene Bynon]

He would call me at work or at home. He called me on Christmas. He knew no boundaries.

[Clifford Olson]

Well, where's Arlene today? She's not at work yet. Oh, well, let's see. What time is she. Oh, no, no, she won't be at work. She won't be at work for an hour. Well, she's not at home. Well, she's probably on the way then. Well, I called her just 10 minutes ago and she wasn't in the car phone. Oh, well, God, Knows. Okay, listen, can you get a little message?

[Arlene Bynon]

Yeah. It was like we were lying in wait, waiting for Olson to tell us what we really wanted to know. For the first year, Peter and I made requests to see Olson in prison, but were turned down. But we felt we needed to see him in person, so we found another way in. We told prison officials we were writing a book about Olson, and if we couldn't talk to him, could we just get a tour of where he was being held? It worked. On February 19, 1991, Peter and I drove the three hours from Toronto to visit Olson in prison. As we approached, I looked up at the imposing walls of Kingston Penitentiary. Inside were some of the most violent men in the country. I was nervous. Peter could tell that I was worried and told me I was right to be unnerved. A young woman entering a maximum security men's prison. But this was my choice. I knew I needed to see him at least once inside the prison walls he was calling me from. And then, almost immediately, as Peter and I stepped into the foyer of the penitentiary, there was Olson. He had guards on either side of him, hands cuffed, being walked back to his cell. After a haircut, he looked up and saw me. We locked eyes. He had no idea we were coming. Olson stopped and stared at us as he was taken back to his cell. And then he turned and winked at me. Peter and I continued our interview with the warden without skipping a beat. We couldn't let on that Olson knew us. Before we left, I asked, could I just walk down the middle of the cell block where he was being held? The warden agreed. Peter stayed behind and I started walking. I could feel eyes on me, watching me as I passed. And then I got to Olson's cell. Rickard was waiting back and he was hanging with two arms through the bars. Peter and I weren't allowed to record inside the prison, but we started as soon as we began driving away. And then we just stood and looked at each other. And he said, and your name? And then I didn't answer. I stood there looking at him and he said, and your name, you know. And then I went, arlene Byner. He went, I'm so pleased to meet you. He said, you. You and the gentleman look good in. It was the only time I ever saw Olson in person, and I could easily imagine him being a killer. I've never forgotten him looking at me from his cell, hands high up on the bars. His face was in darkness, but backlit from the light coming in from the tiny window to the rear. He was calm until he wasn't. As I walked away, he started calling my name. Arlene. Arlene. A nearby prisoner yelled. It's Clifford's girlfriend. The angry warden pulled me away as the men yelled from their cells, trying to get us out of the area as fast as possible. As catcalls echoed off the thick concrete walls. It was chaos. It's been more than three decades since that moment, and it still horrifies me. In the years that followed, I would report what I could from what Olsen told me until eventually I wasn't able to listen to him any longer. Yeah, it's just many times in a lot of the psychiatric stuff that I read and been looking at, even connected with other serial killers. There's been some sort of trauma in somebody's childhood and even one that they won't even admit and sometimes that they forget.

[Clifford Olson]

I question a lot of that, too. I think a lot of that is bullshit, Arlene. I think a lot of those people are not sexually abused. They use as an escape goat to get out for what they're doing. You know, a lot of people just lie, you know, I mean, they gotta cover their self. They're saving faith. They gotta save a little pride, you know?

[Arlene Bynon]

Yeah, but there's got to be a reason why you ended up doing what you did. And it's not as simple as drinking, because what you did isn't as simple as what other people do when they drink. Peter would continue speaking to him long after I stopped. Over a decade more, and he would write books and articles about his relationship with Olsen. Somehow I never could. But still, I kept everything. The dozens, maybe hundreds of letters Olson sent me, the interrogation transcripts and psychiatric reports, the horrific journals where Olson detailed his crimes. And the tapes, the recordings of our hundreds of calls. It all lived in boxes that I carried with me from house to house, wherever I moved. I think I always knew someday I'd return to this story after Peter's death. I thought I would have to do it alone until. A message in 2019. Nat, I still remember when I got that message from you. And I don't think you had any idea at what time you were messaging me. You didn't know. I'd yanked up the boxes and I had. And there was this message from Peter's grandson. It was a moment.

[Nathaniel Frum]

Yeah. No, I had no idea you had dug up the boxes. I don't think when I first reached out to you that I understood how deep this story went. Not just with you, but with the nation. In the years we've worked together since I've started to realize how important it is that this story is told.

[Arlene Bynon]

And for me, for you to send me the message, it was just so full circle on the story, you know? And as you know, I was very clear with you. This. This thing has been twisting and turning inside me for such a long time. And this whole return to the partnership I had with your granddad. I was about your age and he was about my age, and he's not here anymore. And here we are and both of us picking up this story again. I feel the ghost of Peter in this.

[Nathaniel Frum]

It feels appropriate that we've teamed up and all these years later, you walking me through this story, you being the vet and me being the rookie, in an era where most serial killer stories are known and most murderers are famous, why isn't this one well known? Why? You know, when I was reading about it, every detail was stunning to me. And do you think this story was suppressed or is there another reason why it wasn't well known?

[Arlene Bynon]

I do, and that's one of the things that sticks out at me. But I also remember when everyone knew the name Clifford Olson, and when you said it, you could see their face twist. It was a name that was completely connected with evil in this country. But yet now, when I look at is incredible that that cash for bodies deal happened and that we forgot about it.

[Nathaniel Frum]

There's no shortage of serial killer content out there. Documentaries on streaming services, TV shows, movies, fiction, thrillers that sit on bestseller lists for weeks. But in Clifford Olson's case, there was no long, winding, twist filled road to catching him. Because for a long time, police didn't know there was a him to catch until Olson told them, until he was able to get something in return.

[Clifford Olson]

See, we closed the deal here. We closed the deal. I think it was the 25th, about 12 o' clock.

[Nathaniel Frum]

Olson proposed a deal. $10,000 for each body, for each child he led the RCMP to.

[Clifford Olson]

And then the next day we left at 9 o' clock when the money was delivered. Then we went directly from there, out looking for bodies. You get what I'm getting at?

[Arlene Bynon]

The kind of deal the Canadian police made with him, I don't think it had ever been done before or ever since. Some would say it was unconscionable. Others would say it was the only way to get him. What it all meant was the extent of Olson's crimes were never fully investigated. So we're going back to the Olson tapes, opening boxes I sealed over 30 years ago. I reported on the story then. And I'll report on it now and try as best I can to find the answers that so many are still seeking about the rcmp, about Clifford Olson, and perhaps most importantly, about his victims. To do that, we need to talk to the family and friends whose lives were shattered all those years ago.

[Nathaniel Frum]

This season on Calls From a killer from CBC's uncover.

[Clifford Olson]

When we get down to the point where you got a missing 9 year.

[Arlene Bynon]

Old kid who's 6 blocks from his.

[Clifford Olson]

Home and disappears when he's at the corner store getting an ice cream or a candy bar, you got a big problem.

[Arlene Bynon]

I got another phone call, Mrs. Rosenfeld. I'm sorry.

[Clifford Olson]

I guess that was your boy after all. That was the death notification.

[Arlene Bynon]

Our lives as we knew them died with Darren.

[Clifford Olson]

This was a horrific, completely unbelievable revelation that a government had entered into an agreement with a serial killer and paid him to return the bodies of his victims.

[Arlene Bynon]

You say you have nothing to lose. So are you gonna kill again?

[Clifford Olson]

I'm gonna spend the rest of my life in jail, and I'm not prepared to do that. And one of these days, Arlene, I'm gonna make a move and it's gonna be a bloodbath.

[Nathaniel Frum]

Calls From a Killer was written and produced by me, Nathaniel Frum, Arlene Bynon, and senior producers Ashley Mack and Andrew Friesen. Additional writing by Alina Ghosh, mixing and sound design by Evan Garrett Kelly. Emily Connell is our digital producer. Executive producers are Cecil Fernandez and Chris Oak. Tanya Springer is the senior manager and Arif Nurani is the director of CBC Podcasts. Tune in next week for an all new episode of Calls from a killer from CBC's uncover. Or you can binge the whole series by subscribing to our True Crime Premium channel on Apple Podcasts. Just click on the link in the show description.

[Arlene Bynon]

For more CBC Podcasts, go to CBC CA Podcasts.