S33 E3: The Mounties Always Get Their Man | Calls From a Killer

Summary

Podcast Summary: Uncover: Calls From a Killer Episode: S33 E3: The Mounties Always Get Their Man
Release Date: June 2, 2025
Host/Author: CBC
Duration: Approximately 39 minutes

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Introduction

In the gripping third episode of CBC’s Uncover series titled Calls From a Killer, host Arlene Bynon alongside Nathaniel Frum delves deep into the harrowing case of Clifford Olson, one of Canada's most notorious serial killers. The episode meticulously unpacks the failures and controversies surrounding the Royal Canadian Mounted Police (RCMP) during the investigation of Olson’s heinous crimes in the 1980s.

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Background on Clifford Olson and the RCMP

Clifford Olson was responsible for the abduction and murder of at least eleven children between the late 1970s and early 1980s. Despite his long criminal history, characterized by over 90 convictions for various petty crimes, Olson managed to evade the authorities for years, highlighting significant shortcomings within the RCMP’s investigative processes.

Notable Quote:
Nathaniel Frum explains, “Before working on this story with Arlene, I thought they'd done a pretty good job. They'd caught a serial killer in a matter of months. Surely that's a sign of solid police work. But as I learned how many times Olson slipped through the RCMP's fingers...” (07:02)

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Initial Investigations and Systemic Failures

The episode outlines how the RCMP lacked a cohesive system to link similar crimes across different jurisdictions, a critical oversight given British Columbia's vast and varied landscape. This fragmentation allowed Olson to continue his spree with minimal interference.

Key Points:

• Lack of Inter-Jurisdictional Communication: The RCMP struggled to connect cases from different areas, delaying the recognition of Olson as a primary suspect.
• Underestimation of Olson’s Threat: Despite Olson’s extensive criminal background, the RCMP underestimated his potential for escalating violence.

Notable Quote:
Glenn Woods, a former RCMP investigator, reflects, “They had a good working relationship. He cultivated reliable sources in the Mounties...” (05:02)

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The Disappearances and Mounties’ Pursuit

The disappearance of Simon Partington, a nine-year-old boy, intensified the investigation. Olson emerged as a significant suspect, but systemic inefficiencies hindered swift action.

Key Events:

• Simon Partington’s Disappearance: Triggered an all-hands-on-deck response but was marred by investigative delays.
• Lack of Surveillance: The RCMP’s inability to maintain consistent surveillance on Olson allowed him to continue his crimes unabated.

Notable Quote:
Ian Mulgrew discusses the investigative challenges: “There was no way. There was no system to link similar crimes...” (05:27)

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The Infamous "Cash for Bodies" Deal

In a controversial move, the RCMP negotiated a deal with Clifford Olson, offering substantial financial incentives in exchange for information about his victims. This deal became a focal point of the investigation, raising ethical and procedural questions.

Deal Details:

• Initial Offer: $30,000 for information on four bodies.
• Additional Incentives: $10,000 for each further murder scene identified.

Controversies:

• Lack of Initial Commitment: The RCMP initially viewed the deal skeptically, considering it a potential scam.
• Involvement of Former Prosecutor: Bob Schantz, formerly pivotal in convicting Olson’s co-conspirator, acted as Olson’s defense lawyer, complicating the negotiations.

Notable Quotes:
Glenn Woods reveals, “He put together a deal for a hundred thousand dollars… Absolutely, nothing. They didn't know nothing.” (31:56)
Nathaniel Frum adds, “Those lawyers included Bob Shantz… They were making promises they wouldn't keep.” (32:35)

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Impact on Families and Public Trust

The episode poignantly portrays the anguish of the victims' families, particularly focusing on Judy Cosma and her sister Bridget. The "cash for bodies" deal not only delayed justice but also deepened the trauma for the bereaved.

Family Perspectives:

• Bridget Cosma’s Grief: Expresses profound sorrow and frustration over the loss and the police’s handling of the case.
  “Sometimes I look back, I wish nothing. I wish she was still here...” (17:10)

Public Outrage:

• The revelation of the deal sparked widespread anger and distrust towards the RCMP, questioning their commitment to protecting the most vulnerable.

Notable Quote:
Bridget Cosma condemns the deal: “He paid death off. It's sickening...” (37:20)

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Media’s Role and Investigative Journalism

John Daly, a reporter for BCTV, played a crucial role in holding the RCMP accountable. His persistent questioning and demand for transparency pressured the authorities to address the mounting crisis.

Key Points:

• Confrontational Reporting: Daly’s aggressive interrogation of Superintendent Bruce Northorp highlighted the media’s watchdog role.
• Collaboration with Police: Ironically, Daly was consulted by criminal justice officials regarding the feasibility and public reception of the cash deal, exemplifying a complex interplay between media and law enforcement.

Notable Quote:
John Daly recounts, “I think it's worth it [the deal].” (34:16)

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Clifford Olson’s Arrest and Aftermath

Despite ongoing surveillance, Olson managed to abduct his final victim shortly before his eventual capture. The discovery of Judy Cosma’s body linked Olson definitively to the murders, leading to his arrest.

Final Crimes:

• Last Victim: Louise Chartran, an 17-year-old, was abducted shortly before Olson’s arrest, marking the culmination of his deadly spree.

Legal and Ethical Repercussions:

• The RCMP’s methods were scrutinized, with many perceiving the cash deal as a necessary evil to save lives, while others viewed it as a gross miscarriage of justice.

Notable Quote:
Glenn Woods reflects on the deal’s fallout: “Now the whole thing is this. People are overlooking the fact that the families were in distress...” (37:36)

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Conclusion: Lingering Scars and Lessons Learned

Calls From a Killer not only recounts the tragic tale of Clifford Olson and the RCMP’s controversial strategies but also emphasizes the enduring pain experienced by the victims' families. The episode serves as a stark reminder of the complexities and moral dilemmas inherent in criminal investigations, especially those involving serial offenses.

Final Thoughts:

• Enduring Impact: The "cash for bodies" deal remains a contentious topic, symbolizing both a desperate attempt to bring closure and a failure of standard investigative protocols.
• Lessons for Law Enforcement: The case underscores the necessity for robust inter-jurisdictional communication and the ethical considerations in negotiating with known criminals.

Notable Quote:
Glenn Woods poignantly concludes, “What kind of explanation explosion was? Hiroshima or Nagasaki?” (37:55)

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Additional Information

Calls From a Killer is part of CBC’s esteemed Uncover series, renowned for its in-depth exploration of true crime stories. Hosted by individuals intimately connected to the narratives, the series offers unparalleled insights into some of the most perplexing and tragic cases.

For More Episodes: Subscribe to CBC’s Uncover on Apple Podcasts or visit apple.co/cbctruecrime for early access and ad-free listening.

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Disclaimer: This summary is based on a provided transcript and podcast information. Listener discretion is advised due to the explicit content involving violence and sexual assault.

Transcript

[Katherine Cullen]

So how did the Liberals manage to win government, while the Conservatives also boosted their voter support, with voters almost evenly split between the two? And what will this mean for hopes of some cooperation on Parliament Hill this spring? I'm Katherine Cullen, and every Saturday on the House we cut through the noise.

[Bridget Cosma]

To make politics make sense.

[Katherine Cullen]

Follow us wherever you get your podcasts as we explore these questions and answer yours.

[Nathaniel Frum]

This is a CBC podcast.

[Katherine Cullen]

The following episode contains descriptions of violence and sexual assault. Please take care when listening.

[Nathaniel Frum]

Dead or alive we are up to get you Dead or alive. I grew up in the United States even though both my parents are Canadian, so there are certain cultural icons north of the border that seem like a quirky novelty as well as a source of pride to me as a kid. The Royal Canadian Mounted Police are a good example. Like Nelson Eddy during the Golden Age of Hollywood, singing Song of the Mounties in Rosemary, we are up to death or alive.

[Glenn Woods]

We are up to get to death or alive and we'll get to storm.

[Nathaniel Frum]

A proud noble police officer in his red Surge uniform and Stetson hat mounted on his horse. The Mounties were the cartoon Dudley Do Right or square jawed upright Constable Benton Fraser in the TV show Due South.

[Glenn Woods]

So what's your story?

[Katherine Cullen]

You work in a circus?

[Glenn Woods]

No ma' am. Royal Canadian Mounted Police.

[Katherine Cullen]

I first came to Chicago on the trail of the killers of my father and for reasons that don't need exploring.

[Ian Mulgrew]

At this juncture, I've remained attached as.

[Glenn Woods]

Liaison with the Canadian Consulate.

[Nathaniel Frum]

They were an incorruptible force for good, maybe a little too earnest, but effective. The Mountie always gets his man. If I had a rose colored view of the rcmp, that was also due in large part to my grandfather Peter Worthington. Pete viewed the RCMP fondly and the cops liked Pete. Throughout his journalism career. They had a good working relationship. He cultivated reliable sources in the Mounties and became their go to reporter when they wanted to get a story out. Pete knew they had their faults, but he wasn't about to burn a bridge at the expense of a scoop. Until recently, I never really gave much thought to the RCMP and what their function is in Canada. They're like the Canadian FBI, but also not. They serve as state police. Sorry, I mean provincial police, but not in all provinces. Ontario and Quebec have their own. Also, in many places in the country there are no local police forces. So contrary to what you'd think of a federal authority that investigates serious crimes, it's up to the nearby RCMP detachment to do traffic stops and respond to 911 calls. It's a confusing patchwork of jurisdictions across one of the largest countries in the world, if we're talking landmass. But when Clifford Olsen was on the loose, committing murder after murder, there could be no doubt catching him was the RCMP's responsibility. Before working on this story with Arlene, I thought they'd done a pretty good job. They'd caught a serial killer in a matter of months. Surely that's a sign of solid police work. But as I learned how many times Olson slipped through the RCMP's fingers, how many victims were ignored, how many interview they didn't do, how many times Olson was practically begging to be caught, my opinion changed. The authorities didn't explain themselves. Not back then and not now. This is calls from a killer. From CBC's uncover. I'm Nathaniel Frum.

[Katherine Cullen]

And I'm Arlene Bynon. This is episode three. The Mounties always get their man. It's July 1981, and Corporal Les Forsyth and a fellow Mountie from the Burnaby RCMP Detachment visit Olson's apartment. If they were going to place a trail on him, they needed to confirm he actually lived there. His neighbors tell them he'd left town on a vacation down the west coast of California. They don't know when he'd be back. At this time, the RCMP had finally identified Olson as a possible suspect in the disappearance of children from the area. Even if he was just one in a long list of others, various detachments now knew his name.

[Ian Mulgrew]

There was no way. There was no system to link similar crimes in different jurisdictions, even if they were next door to one another. You know, so the lower mainland's very small in geographic area. Even there you had kids going missing and weeks and months going by before other detachments knew that they had a case similar to the one you were investigating.

[Katherine Cullen]

Glenn woods is a former RCMP investigator who now operates an investigative consulting firm in Vancouver. He worked on the Olson case back in 1981, but admits he was fairly low in the chain of command.

[Ian Mulgrew]

I wasn't a big city investigator here. I was a guy that was on drug squad that just moved over to a major crime. So I was kind of like the new guy on the block. So one of the foot soldiers that did a lot of the canvassing and really my first real active role in the investigation was when Simon Partington went missing.

[Katherine Cullen]

Simon Partington was the nine year old boy who'd gone missing only weeks before.

[Ian Mulgrew]

Because of his age and his gender and the circumstances, he came from a supportive family. All of that stuff. So immediately when he went missing, that was all hands on deck.

[Katherine Cullen]

During that time in the investigation, there was a name that cropped up. Clifford Olson. When did you first hear that name?

[Ian Mulgrew]

Well, I knew Cliff Olson because he's a rounder from the lower mainland. He spent more time in jail than he spent out. But he was always known for these petty crimes, B E's. There's no information, anything I can remember where he offended in this way prior to him being in his late 30s, early 40s, which is really late for these kinds of offenders to start blooming, you know.

[Nathaniel Frum]

So even before 1981, Olson was well known to the RCMP, if not as a serial killer, certainly as a career criminal. And Glenn's right. In his entire adult life, Olsen only spent around 1700 days on the outside, not incarcerated. That's just a little over four and a half years. He was first imprisoned when he was 17, in the late 50s for a break and enter. For the next 22 years, he'd be in and out of custody, tallying up more than 90 convictions, put away for robberies, burglaries and forgeries mostly. Olson, by all accounts a charming man, would sometimes be granted early release for good behavior. On other occasions, he had his sentence extended after escape attempts. But he kind of thrived inside. It was in prison that Olson honed a talent for gaining and dealing in information, a skill that could earn him favor with prison guards, parole boards and the police. His greatest triumph on that front involved a man named Gary Marcoux. Police in Mission, British Columbia have charged 34 year old Gary Francis Marceau with murder in the death of nine year old Jean Duve, whose body was found tied to a tree in a remote forested area. In 1976, Olson befriended Marcoux while they were both in prison in the B.C. penitentiary. Marcoux was facing charges of rape and murder. The girl was last seen alive by Playmates on Wednesday night, playing with a resident of a halfway house who was on parole after being convicted of rape. The case was at a standstill because the crown prosecutor, a man named Bob Schantz, didn't feel there was enough evidence to convict. But Olson provided a lucky break.

[Glenn Woods]

So this Gary Marku, who I've known all my life, told me about this murder and rape, so I got him to write everything out.

[Nathaniel Frum]

Olson came up with the idea to trick Marcoux into writing down a detailed confession to the murder under the pretense that he'd help him come up with an alibi. Olson promptly sent the confession to British Columbia's Attorney general and continued to talk to Marcoux on the inside, gradually gathering more evidence. Marcoux eventually pleaded guilty and was sentenced to 25 years without parole. A sensational coup for prosecutor Schantz and the foundation of Olson's relationship with the RCMP and his reputation as an effective snitch.

[Glenn Woods]

And I got a nice letter from Bob saying that with my cooperation and everything that they were pleased. I asked nothing in return, blah, blah, blah. And it was my stuff that convicted him.

[Ian Mulgrew]

I can tell you that Clifford Olsen was an informant to see what Clifford Olson could get and often thought he was smarter than the cops. So he may have provided information, but there was something in it for him.

[Katherine Cullen]

Looking back, many think that's why the RCMP took so long to suspect Olson.

[Glenn Woods]

The biggest problem they ran into was the kind of refusal to accept someone they had worked with in the past as an informant who had helped convict another child killer in the late 70s, was in fact now manipulating them and murdering children himself.

[Katherine Cullen]

Ian Mulgrew is retired now, but he spent 40 plus years as a journalist, more than half that time with the Vancouver sun newspaper. And in the years he was working as a journalist, the term serial killer was used far less than it is today. The public didn't have the words to describe someone like Olson.

[Glenn Woods]

People didn't understand at the time and had not really processed or considered the idea that there were individuals among us that were preying on children. And I think that was an incredible, shocking and very horrific idea for most people to accept.

[Katherine Cullen]

He makes the point that in the early 80s, it took the community longer to come to what now seems like an obvious conclusion.

[Glenn Woods]

Today it seems to be sort of a banal kind of concept. But back then it was difficult for people to believe this had happened and that someone was actually out there killing children on a regular basis for their own sexual gratification.

[Katherine Cullen]

On July 22, 1981, approximately three weeks after police made Olson a suspect, he, his wife Joan and their infant son returned from a vacation in California. They were back in B.C. and back on the radar of the RCMP. That same day, Corporal Ed Drosta of the Serious Crimes Unit of the Mounties also came back from vacation. Assigned to the Olson case, he met up with a detective named Dennis Tarr from the local police service of the city of Delta, close to Vancouver. Tarr was the one who would inch the RCMP closer to seeing Olson as their primary source suspect.

[John Daly]

I believe he was a confidential informant for Dennis Tar. He was telling Tar about stolen property and you know, where he could get it. And I think what Olson was doing was backfilling information he had from his fence about other robberies and so forth.

[Katherine Cullen]

John Daly, who was a reporter for the BCTV news station.

[John Daly]

In any event, Olser was making money from the cops, ratting out other criminals and suggested to Tar that he might be able to get some information from bad guys about who is taking these kids. Tar, you know, really saw that something was fishy here. This just didn't square, this didn't make any sense.

[Katherine Cullen]

Despite these rising suspicions, the RCMP and other police forces weren't able to act faster than Olson. He's brazenly abducting and murdering at alarming speed. Seven children are now dead and in the last week of July alone he murders his final four victims. On the morning of July 23rd, Olson spotted 15 year old Raymond King Jr. Waiting for a bus in New Westminster. King had been out looking for a summer job to make some cash. He never made it home. On the night King disappeared, Detective Tar paid Olson a visit.

[Glenn Woods]

I just come back home from a kill on the day that, what the heck, that cop from Surrey come over to visit me, yeah.

[Katherine Cullen]

Tar probed a bit about what more Olson knew about the disappearances and murders, asking specifically about the nine year old Simon Partington. Olson was reportedly relaxed, playing with his baby son as they talked. Tar left without anything substantial. The RCMP did not put Olson under surveillance, not before Raymond King Jr. And not afterward.

[Glenn Woods]

I just finished killing King at that time and, and had they had me under surveillance like they should have, King would have been alive today.

[Katherine Cullen]

The very next day, an 18 year old West German tourist named Sigrin Arnd is hanging out at the Caribou, a hotel and pub along the highway. She meets a man with dark curly hair who offers her a ride.

[Glenn Woods]

At approximately 3 o' clock, I saw this German girl walking and I stopped and asked her what she was. She told me she was over on a holiday on a tour trip with some friends, a group, and I says, yeah, I says, I'll come right with them. She said that she took the day.

[Katherine Cullen]

Off for herself and the encounter follows a well worn pattern. Olson picks her up and drives her to a boggy area outside of Richmond, the same place he took Simon Partington the Hammer.

[Glenn Woods]

I don't recall what I'd done with it now, but it was thrown in the river. I then proceeded home that night and had a late supper around 7:00. Hey, I'm Gavin Crawford, host of Because News, where comedians answer questions about the headlines for meaningless points. And one of our regular panelists is here. It's Alice Moran. Sup, Alice? Hi, Gavin.

[Nathaniel Frum]

We always like having you on the.

[Katherine Cullen]

Show, partly because you're always up on.

[Glenn Woods]

The news, but mostly because of your vast knowledge of Pokemon and baseball. I feel like up on the news.

[Nathaniel Frum]

Is a bit of a stretch, but.

[Katherine Cullen]

I like being on the show because.

[Glenn Woods]

Every time you cover a sports story.

[Katherine Cullen]

You somehow make it about musical theater.

[Nathaniel Frum]

Jellicle Songs for NHL Cats because news.

[Glenn Woods]

It'S like the news, but with laughs.

[Nathaniel Frum]

Listen now, wherever you get your podcasts. Jellicle songs for Jellicoe NHL Cats On July 25, 1981, near a town named Agassiz, four campers came across human remains. They were soon confirmed to belong to Judy Cosma, a 14 year old girl who had disappeared about two weeks earlier. She had been chalked up as another runaway.

[Bridget Cosma]

She was really outgoing, she loved sports. She had really bad asthma since she was five years old, so she was limited to doing certain things. She got sick quite a bit when she was 8, 9, 10, 11. I mean, a couple times we almost actually lost her because her asthma was so bad.

[Katherine Cullen]

Bridget Cosma is Judy's sister. She talked to us from her home in Langley, bc.

[Bridget Cosma]

Sometimes I look back, I wish nothing. I wish she was still here. But if you want someone to pass away, I'd rather she passed away from her illness than being brutally murdered like she was.

[Katherine Cullen]

When Judy didn't show up to her shift at McDonald's and come home as expected, it was Bridget, seven years her senior, who went out on a frantic search.

[Bridget Cosma]

I went into panic mode. I searched everywhere for her, right till the evening. My parents, they were going out of their mind. So I drove around everywhere, everywhere in Richmond. I went to every possible friend she knew. And it just went on all night to the point where I couldn't knock on People's Door 11, 12 o' clock at night.

[Katherine Cullen]

When the cosmos tried to report Judy missing to their local RCMP detachment, they received the customary response. Nothing could be done before 48 hours had passed. Which infuriates Bridget still.

[Bridget Cosma]

I mean, they knew that there was children already missing. Do you know what I mean? Or they already knew something was up, but they never shared it, right, with the public or, you know, they probably knew that she probably was another victim.

[Katherine Cullen]

After her body was found. Did you know? I mean, when the police came to tell you about it, did they tell you she was murdered then?

[Bridget Cosma]

Good question. No, they just said that they had found Judy's body and if someone in the family can go to the headquarters to come and identify some things.

[Katherine Cullen]

Was that you? Did you go?

[Bridget Cosma]

I did, I went. My parents were too distraught. My mother was put on medication. She was not capable. She couldn't function. They didn't tell you too much. They just had this long table, I remember with a whole bunch of stuff, stuff put out on the table. And they asked me to pick out anything that would look familiar. They didn't offer someone to help be beside you. So you could imagine my state of mind. I walked on the long table and I saw right away Judy's necklace, Judy's watch, Judy's little ring. And I pointed to them and I really can't remember what happened after that. It was extremely traumatic. Even just thinking about still hurts so much and I don't know.

[Katherine Cullen]

Like other families we spoken to, the Cosmas would later piece together how their loved one became acquainted with Olsen. Judy had previously attended a Christmas party thrown by a friend's family. And there she'd met Olson. By this time he was already involved with his soon to be wife, Joan. But he was there on a date because he was cheating with a relative of Judy's friend.

[Bridget Cosma]

So that was the first encounter. And according to my mom, Judy had come home and told my mom that this man at the party was offering her a job, you know, that he was in construction and if she wanted to make money, he would pay $10 an hour to wash the windows of construction sites. And my mother of course said absolutely not. But I think that he already selected Judy at this point.

[Nathaniel Frum]

The same day that Judy Cosma's body was discovered, Corporal Ed Drosda received a call from Clifford Olson. He was shopping himself around, offering to become a paid informant. At the time, the RCMP was still haggling over the details of putting olson under surveillance. Two days later, 15 year old Terri Lynn Carson disappeared. Her mother reported her missing. The next day, the RCMP finally put a tail on Olson. The officers tasked with watching him noted he was driving erratically, off habit and at a frantic speed. He was almost impossible to track. By 1:30pm on the very day they started, the RCMP pulled their surveillance operation. They assessed that Olson was already onto them. They were wrong.

[Glenn Woods]

I never knew at one time that I was under surveillance. Not once, not one time that I knew I was under surveillance.

[Nathaniel Frum]

The same night, at around 10pm, Olsen went to meet Dennis Tarr at the Caribou Hotel lounge in Surrey with a younger man in tow. Olsen thought Detective Tarr was looking to him for tips. $200,000 worth of TVs had recently been stolen in the area. He smelt a paycheck. But Tar, with RCMP Corporals Fred Mele and Ed Drazda watching from another table, was more interested in asking about the missing children.

[Glenn Woods]

I told him that he would have to put me on a $2,000 wage a month and I'd keep my eyes open as I was working in construction.

[Nathaniel Frum]

As Olson leaves the restaurant, Tar is more convinced than ever that Olson is responsible for the string of missing young people. Now, with Olson firmly back in their sights, RCMP surveillance follows him as he drives into the night outside Surrey. They observe Olson with his male friend, pick up another young man and then two teenage girls looking to hitchhike. The surveillance team stops the car and sees the two girls holding beers they say Olson gave them. Olson is arrested for contributing to juvenile delinquency. We don't know how, but Olsen is released by 3:30am that morning. And by lunchtime that day, he meets with Tar again at A White Spot, which is a chain of restaurants in BC, and he's properly introduced to the RCMP's Fred Mele and Ed Drosta. This is Olson recording his perspective of the meeting in 1991.

[Glenn Woods]

We went over to the wait spot over in Delta and we discussed the hundred thousand dollars reward that was put out for a girl that was murdered and raped on Vancouver Island. And I said I might have some information for them and I wanted them to put me on a payroll of $3,000 a month to gather information.

[Katherine Cullen]

After that meeting, you'd think Olson would have said enough for the RCMP to double down on their surveillance. But they lifted their tail on Olson. By the next afternoon, Olson had picked up 17 year old Louise Chartran as she was waiting to start her shift at a restaurant in Maple Ridge, BC. She would be his last victim, his 11th confirmed before his perverse luck ran out. In the blazing heat of August 5th.

[Glenn Woods]

Raymond King's badly decomposed body is found.

[Katherine Cullen]

South of the popular Weaver Lake camping district near Agassiz. He's the third missing child to be.

[Glenn Woods]

Found and only a few hundred meters.

[Katherine Cullen]

From the scene where police had discovered Judy cosma's body just 12 days earlier.

[Nathaniel Frum]

By the peak of summer, there was no escaping the news that children in the lower mainland of British Columbia were in great danger. But the police were still not making it public that they only suspected one person to be responsible.

[Glenn Woods]

Our investigations over the past several days.

[John Daly]

Have now resulted in the discovery of.

[Glenn Woods]

Two bodies thought to be those of.

[John Daly]

The Some of the seven children that.

[Nathaniel Frum]

Have been reported missing.

[John Daly]

And our investigations are still underway at this moment.

[Nathaniel Frum]

Former TV reporter John Daly says patience was starting to fray, as was the previously civil relationship between the media and the police.

[John Daly]

You know, you do need the cops, and if they want to sort of teach you a lesson, they can feed the stories to somebody else and you get beat on it. And, you know, so the, the cops were in a real power position. And then when bodies were discovered, they often didn't tell us. They'd hide that information for a week or two, in which case, you know, the TV stations couldn't get any pictures. The crime scene had been vacated. And BCTV sort of took a outside the box approach to dealing with the police, saying, you know, you owe us answers and, you know, we're the agents of the public and we're trying to ask the questions that the average Joe, the average cab driver, the average McDonald's worker would ask in a situation like this. Like, what the hey is going on? What are you doing? You know, is there any progress? Do you have any suspects? Why is this taking so long? How come another kid has disappeared? I remember one day having a, like, almost a shouting match. I had stayed up almost all night writing a big list, list of questions for Superintendent Bruce Northorp, who was the head of the task force. And they had a news conference and I went to the news conference and basically just started hammering away and we went at it blow for blow. I think Northrop at some point said, you know, okay, 10 questions, that's it. I wouldn't say whether or not they had a suspect. And it was like, I guess, three days after that when they popped Olson.

[Katherine Cullen]

It was August 12th at night. Olson had been under now constant surveillance for five days when he was observed picking up two young female hitchhikers. The Mounties followed his car until he pulled over and headed with the girls into a wooded area on Vancouver Island. Knowing the likely fate awaiting the hitchhikers, they couldn't risk waiting to see what happened. They grabbed Olson while searching his car. In his glove box, they found a notebook. Inside the COVID was written Judy Cosma's name.

[Glenn Woods]

I got picked up on the 12th and there was that note still sealed inside the COVID of this notebook with Judy Cosmo's name in it. And I was real scared about that. Really, really scared.

[Katherine Cullen]

For the next week, the RCMP interrogated Olson intensively. After that, his name was formally tied to the murders. And it exploded in the media.

[John Daly]

I was on a day off and I'm in the newsroom filling out timesheets so I can get paid. And the assignment editor says to me, they've caught this child killer. It was pandemonium, but it was big. And then when we finally found out that the person was Clifford Robert Olson and that he was basically a career criminal, all hell broke loose.

[Katherine Cullen]

John's network, bctv, naturally, had blanket coverage.

[Glenn Woods]

Police expect Clifford Robert Olsen to be charged next week with at least five of nine known murders in the Vancouver area. Two youngsters are still missing, and the Royal Canadian Mounted Police believe they are dead. The dead and missing youngsters range in age from 9 to 17 years. The nine bodies were found nude and had either been bludgeoned or stabbed to death. The search is continuing.

[Katherine Cullen]

This week, for the first time, the RCMP confirmed they were looking at only one man, one suspect in all the cases.

[John Daly]

Yes.

[Katherine Cullen]

What the police weren't divulging was that their case on Olson was weak. Other than Judy's name in a notebook found in the car, the RCMP had very little physical evidence to tie him to all the murders. If Olson walked again, it would be a grave humiliation. The Mounties and prosecutors could forge ahead with what they had on Olson for Judy's murder, with maybe a slim chance of conviction. Or they could keep and press Olson for as long and as far as the law would allow to see if he would break. But in my opinion, they were on the back foot. Later, Peter and I pored over the interrogation transcripts. Olson is combative, snapping back at Corporal Fred Maley as accusations mount. You've got your ass up against the wall, melee tells Olson. Olson denies and dismisses, but you can tell that he knows this time he might be caught for good. It's also clear that the investigators didn't really employ any special tactics in dealing with a psychopathic serial killer. They were talking to him like he'd robbed a bank. Which makes sense, given the time. South of the border, there was a gush of research on serial killers. The FBI's Behavioral Science Unit had recently completed their database of serial offenders. But this new science of profiling probably hadn't made it yet to the B.C. detachments of the RCMP. Apart from the number of victims, 11 confirmed, the Mounties didn't appear to approach Olson much differently from a garden variety criminal. Olson confounded these investigators, but in the end, it was Olson who gave them an avenue out.

[Glenn Woods]

The thing is, one, I put a deal together for a hundred thousand dollars. He got all. Until I got that money up front, they got nothing. Absolutely nothing. They didn't know nothing. Right.

[Katherine Cullen]

This is what he proposed. The RCMP would pay Olson $30,000 for evidence on the four bodies they'd found before his arrest. And for each murder scene he identified or body he could help them locate, he would receive an additional $10,000. A full confession was a given.

[Nathaniel Frum]

Corporal Mele would later tell my grandfather Pete, that at first they had no intention of paying up, just try and scam him.

[Glenn Woods]

That was the original thought. Once the lawyers got involved, we said.

[Katherine Cullen]

We, yeah, it's right out of our hands now.

[Nathaniel Frum]

Those lawyers included Bob Shantz, once the crown prosecutor when Olson was a prison snitch. Shantz was now acting as Olson's defense lawyer. He'd testify in a court case that he advised Olson. The police were making promises they wouldn't keep.

[Glenn Woods]

When Olson first told him the police were offering to pay $10,000 a body, Shontz says he dismissed it as a bunch of baloney. Later, Olson called to say he was going to go out with the RCMP.

[Katherine Cullen]

And locate the bodies.

[Glenn Woods]

Shont said he was angry. He told Olson, cliffey, when you get to the end and you have $100,000 in your hand, they'll kick you in the ass and take the money back.

[Nathaniel Frum]

Former RCMP investigator Glenn woods will admit he wasn't in the room where the big decisions were made, but he knows his colleagues didn't have a strong hand.

[Ian Mulgrew]

Many of those victims would not have been found. And I'm not sure what the conviction rate would have been on most of those cases either. There wasn't a lot of forensic. It wasn't DNA like I did there is today. You know, I think it would have been hard pressed to put that case together and be guaranteed that he would go to jail. Like I said, I wasn't at the level where I was being consulted or aware of what was going on at that level. That was above my pay grade at that time.

[Katherine Cullen]

Someone who was consulted, to my shock, was reporter John Daley.

[John Daly]

I got a phone call from an official in the criminal justice system who said to me, we need to have an off the record chat. And they said, okay, what if we had to pay Clifford Robert Olsen $10,000 a body to recover the bodies? What would the public's reaction be? And I said, well, it'll be outrage. It'll be, you know, over the top. People will be furious. I said, well, we're in a very difficult position. And I said, well, you know, if you get the bodies and you get the evidence and he takes you to the. Because These bodies were in the middle of no place, strung out around all over the lower mainland, right? I said, you know, I think for the family's sake, having interviewed a number of the families, if you can get their kids remains back and get the evidence you need to make this ironclad. I said, I think it's worth it. And they did it.

[Katherine Cullen]

With the approval of the province's attorney general. The cash for bodies deal came to be. The money was to be put in a trust for his wife Joan and baby son. But the way he'd talk about the deal with me during our phone calls, Olson saw the deal as a triumph for himself, only himself.

[Glenn Woods]

I'm street walk wise, okay? I'm no dummy, you understand? I know all the angles and everything I do, I pay for myself. Everything is for Clifford Robert Olson game the next person.

[Katherine Cullen]

In a gesture of either giddiness that he pulled this off or to embarrass the police further, he provided details about one additional murder as a freebie.

[Nathaniel Frum]

The Mounties finally got their man, but at what cost? My grandfather Pete would often remark to me that the money the RCMP paid Olson was the best hundred thousand dollars they'd ever spent. And he probably knew some things most wouldn't. Because Pete had no problem getting the RCMP to talk, we were less fortunate. Glenn woods was the only one who would talk to us. Ed Drazda hung up on me as soon as I mentioned what I was researching when Arlene got another ex RCMP investigator on the line. He refused to be interviewed for fear of backlash from former colleagues.

[Katherine Cullen]

And we think we know why. The RCMP hoped the cash for bodies deal would be seen as something to be celebrated. In reality, the deal caused such outrage and damage that some in this country have no never healed and never will.

[Bridget Cosma]

I mean, he paid death off. It's sickening. Meanwhile, these family, including mine, were just trying to put our lives back together, trying to find strength to carry on.

[Glenn Woods]

Now the whole thing is this. People are overlooking the fact that the families were in distress in this area, the ones who have their children that were lost and have not been found for many weeks and months. So the pressure was tremendous. Now, how do you solve a crime and get it over with?

[Katherine Cullen]

What kind of an explosion did it make? Do you remember.

[Glenn Woods]

What kind of explanation explosion was? Hiroshima or Nagasaki?

[Katherine Cullen]

That's next time on Calls from a Killer. Calls From a Killer was written and produced by me, Arlene Bynon, Nathaniel Frum and senior producers Ashley Mack and Andrew Friesen. Mixing and stick sound design by Evan Kelly. Emily Connell is our digital producer. Additional audio from BCTV Executive producers are Cecil Fernandez and Chris Oak, Tanya Springer is the senior manager and Arif Noorani is the director of CBC Podcasts. Tune in next week for an all new episode of Calls from a killer from CBC's uncover. Or you can binge the whole series by subscribing to our True Crime Premium channel on Apple Podcasts. Just click on the link in the show description.

[Nathaniel Frum]

For more CBC Podcasts, go to CBC CA Podcasts.