S33 E5: Joan | Calls From a Killer

Summary

Summary of "Uncover: Calls From a Killer"
Episode S33 E5: Joan | Calls From a Killer
Release Date: June 16, 2025
Host: CBC’s Arlene Bynon

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Introduction

In the fifth episode of "Uncover: Calls From a Killer," CBC's Arlene Bynon delves deep into the tumultuous and tragic relationship between renowned journalist Arlene Bynon and Clifford Olson, one of Canada's most notorious serial killers. This episode, titled "Joan," focuses on Joan Olson, Clifford's wife, revealing the complexities surrounding her life, their marriage, and the subsequent legal battles following Clifford's conviction.

Background: Clifford and Joan Olson

The episode begins with Arlene reflecting on her personal life before transitioning into the harrowing story of Clifford Olson's criminal activities in the 1980s, during which he murdered at least eleven children. Arlene introduces Joan Olson, Clifford's wife, portraying her as a figure caught in the spotlight following the public unveiling of the "Cash for Bodies" deal—a controversial arrangement where Clifford received $100,000 despite his heinous crimes.

Notable Quote:
“I need to eat. Leave me alone. I need to eat.”
— Joan Olson [00:16]

Joan's Public Persona vs. Private Reality

Joan Olson's initial public appearances painted her as a beleaguered wife overwhelmed by media scrutiny. A Toronto Star article from 1982 titled "The Silent Wife" described her as a petite woman with outdated hairdos, further alienating her from public sympathy. However, as Arlene and her colleague Peter Worthington delved deeper, they discovered a much more nuanced and human side of Joan.

Notable Quote:
“I love him. Yeah, you don't turn love off and on…”
— Joan Olson [01:55]

Legal Battles Over the Trust Fund

Following Clifford's conviction, Joan and two of Olson's lawyers faced lawsuits from the families of his victims. The crux of the legal dispute centered around whether the trust fund set up for Joan and their son was genuinely for their benefit or merely a facade to launder money derived from Clifford's crimes.

Notable Exchange:

• Joan Olson: “Regardless of whether they feel sorry for a woman who appears to be another of Clifford Olson's victims, they want the…”
• Arlene Bynon: “Left of the Olson trust fund.” [03:25-03:30]

The Turbulent Relationship and Signs of Abuse

Joan's relationship with Clifford was marred by abuse and manipulation. Early in their marriage, Joan recounts instances of Clifford's violence, including physical assaults and threats. Despite these, Joan exhibited a complex mix of fear, love, and dependency, making it difficult for her to extricate herself from the abusive relationship.

Notable Quote:
“I hated him right from the night he held a knife to my throat. He threatened to take away my baby.”
— Joan Olson [03:43-03:45]

Arlene Bynon's Interviews with Joan and Clifford

Arlene Bynon undertakes a pivotal role in uncovering the hidden truths behind Joan and Clifford's marriage. Through extensive interviews, Arlene learns about the gradual unraveling of their relationship, marked by increasing violence and Clifford's deteriorating mental state.

During a joint project with Peter Worthington, Joan briefly joins a dinner meeting, revealing limited information. However, recognizing that more depth was needed, Arlene arranges a separate three-day meeting with Joan, unveiling a side of Joan that was meek, sweet, and burdened by years of suppressing traumatic memories.

Notable Quote:
“I don't know what went through my mind. I'd never done anything when it was in my whole life. I hope my mother would shoot me.”
— Joan Olson [12:04]

Revelations and Uncovering Hidden Crimes

As Arlene continues her investigation, Joan begins to recall suppressed memories, including Clifford's violent acts that extended beyond his known victims. Joan's detailed notes and recollections suggest that Clifford may have had more victims than previously documented, hinting at a broader scope of his atrocities.

Notable Quote:
“I actually had contacted Cl... Tried to talk to him... He started choking me. I looked into his eyes, and I knew then he was a killer.”
— Joan Olson [05:58]

Clifford Olson's Manipulative Nature

Clifford Olson exhibits manipulative and deceitful behavior during his phone conversations with Arlene. He attempts to position himself as victimized and disinterested in personal confrontations, while simultaneously trying to cultivate a false sense of intimacy and control over Arlene.

Notable Quote:
“Anybody that's doing a book on a serial killer should face the serial killer.”
— Clifford Olson [07:35]

The Haunting Impact on Joan Olson

Joan Olson's life post-Clifford's conviction is portrayed as one of ongoing fear, guilt, and societal ostracization. Despite her innocence in the direct acts of violence, Joan grapples with the stigma of being associated with a notorious serial killer, compounded by legal battles and public disdain.

Notable Quote:
“Would you rather he be dead? Be easier. Yeah, it would, wouldn't it?”
— Joan Olson [30:24]

Police Investigations and Doubts

The episode touches upon police suspicions regarding Joan's involvement in Clifford's activities, including a fake burglary of their apartment. These investigations further strained Joan's reputation and underscored the complexities of uncovering the truth in the wake of Clifford's crimes.

Notable Quote:
“I didn't think it was rape.”
— Joan Olson [20:56]

Final Insights and Conclusion

Arlene Bynon concludes the episode by reflecting on Joan Olson's role in Clifford's life, presenting her as both a victim of manipulation and a woman who struggled to assert her own identity amidst chaos and fear. The episode underscores the profound impact of abusive relationships and the long-lasting trauma endured by those involved.

Notable Quote:
“I truly believe that multiple things can be true at the same time. I think Joan was another of Olson's victims and that she was just the kind of vulnerable woman he could control and manipulate.”
— Arlene Bynon [29:15]

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Key Takeaways

• Complex Relationships: Joan Olson's relationship with Clifford was fraught with abuse, manipulation, and tragedy, highlighting the intricate dynamics often present in abusive partnerships.

• Legal and Societal Challenges: The episode sheds light on the legal battles faced by innocent parties caught in the aftermath of criminal actions, as well as the societal tendency to harshly judge those associated with criminals.

• Psychological Depth: Through interviews and personal accounts, the podcast delves into the psychological ramifications of living alongside a serial killer, exploring themes of fear, dependency, and resilience.

• Uncovering the Truth: Arlene Bynon's relentless pursuit of the truth serves as a testament to investigative journalism's role in bringing hidden narratives to light, especially in cases overshadowed by sensational crimes.

Conclusion

"Calls From a Killer" presents a deeply human story amidst one of Canada's darkest criminal histories. By focusing on Joan Olson's experiences and perspectives, Arlene Bynon offers listeners a nuanced understanding of the personal toll of living beside a serial killer. This episode underscores the importance of empathy, thorough investigation, and the recognition of the multifaceted realities behind headline-grabbing crimes.

Transcript

[Arlene Bynon]

Ten years ago, I asked my partner Kelsey if she would marry me. I did that despite the fact that every living member of my family who.

[Gavin Crawford]

Had ever been married had also gotten divorced.

[Arlene Bynon]

Forever is a Long Time is a five part series in which I talk to those relatives about why they got divorced and why they got married. You can listen to it now on CBC's personally this is a CBC podcast. The following episode contains descriptions of violence and sexual assault. Please take care when listening. I remember very clearly the moment I truly realized Clifford Olson had a wife. I was watching Olsen's hearings as they were reported on tv. The first time I saw Joan. She was coming out of the courthouse, immediately swarmed by a scrum of reporters. She had short brown hair, thin peaked eyebrows, and looked older than a woman, just in her early 40s. Understandable, though, given the stress she must have been under. The sighting of Joan came right after the Cash for Bodies deal became public knowledge and she and the son she shared with Olson were the ones getting the money. And so the journalist quizzed her on it right there on the front lawn, and she responded by yelling into the crowd, I need to eat. Leave me alone. I need to eat. My honest impressions were this woman is out of control. A few Months later, in June 1982, she presented a gentler side, saying this about her husband in an interview with cbc.

[Joan Olson]

I love him. Yeah, you don't turn love off and on. You don't turn your love off of a little child or even at your teenage years old. They might do something really that you really hate, but you don't turn your love off of it. Even after what Clifford's done. He hasn't hurt me really, in a sense. He hasn't taken any of my flesh and blood away.

[Arlene Bynon]

So I think the public, and I'm including myself here, consigned Joan to the class of offenders, wives who weren't accomplices exactly, but certainly weren't smart or strong enough to put a stop to their partner's crimes sooner. That was enough to earn a lot of hate. Olson was a child killer. The media didn't often help. A Toronto Star article, also from 1982, labeled Joan the silent Wife. In it, she's described as a tiny woman, not petite, just short, about five feet. She wears her hair harshly curled and permed in a style 15 years out of date. But Joan soon slipped back into obscurity. Just a side note to Olsen's depravity. A couple years after Olson's conviction, though, she was back in the news. Joan and Two of Olson's lawyers were being sued for the money.

[Joan Olson]

The families of some of the victims are in court because they want what's.

[Arlene Bynon]

Left of the Olson trust fund.

[Joan Olson]

Regardless of whether they feel sorry for a woman who appears to be another of Clifford Olson's victims, they want the.

[Arlene Bynon]

Court to prove the trust fund wasn't.

[Joan Olson]

Set up for her benefit, but for Olson's. That it was just an elaborate scheme.

[Arlene Bynon]

To hide the fact that Olson profited from his crimes. Joan was compelled to tell her side of the story under oath. When she talked of Olson, she broke down and cried. She said, I hated him right from the night he held a knife to my throat. He threatened to take away my baby. Joan had to convince the court the vast majority of the money went to her and her son, Clifford Olson iii, whose name was later changed. They weren't just being used as a money laundry.

[David Gibbons]

She is accused of conspiring with the convicted killer and the lawyers to benefit from the trust fund. The families are alleging that Olson illegally benefited from the trust fund because his.

[Clifford Olson]

Debts were paid off.

[Arlene Bynon]

But it often seemed like what was being tested was her allegiance to Orson.

[Gavin Crawford]

Her appearance in court today sparked a minor incident. When she came in, one of the parents of Olson's victims called out at her, are you going to tell the truth today? That prompted Mr. Justice William Traynor to caution against unseemly conduct in his court. The family's lawyer produced a transcript of a television interview Mrs. Olson gave after her husband confessed to murdering 11 children. Her words then were much different than the nightmare life she described in court yesterday. In that interview, she said of Olson, he's very kind, very thoughtful to me. He always made sure I had enough money to feed the baby.

[Arlene Bynon]

At this point, it was easy to see Joan as a bit of a slippery, mysterious figure.

[David Gibbons]

Mrs. Olson admitted that she knew her husband was a thief and that they lived on the proceeds of crime and welfare. But in an angry outburst, she said the RCMP knew that too, and there was nothing they could do to keep him in jail. So what could she do?

[Arlene Bynon]

She claimed, surprised that Olson could have ever been a murderer, despite saying she suffered violence throughout their short lived relationship.

[Gavin Crawford]

But when the RCMP came to her home with a search warrant while investigating the murder of Judy Kosma, Mrs. Olson was shocked. My first reaction was Clifford Olson was a drunk, he was an animal, but he was not a murderer.

[Arlene Bynon]

But she also argued dramatically that she was the one who coaxed the confessions out of her ex husband.

[Gavin Crawford]

She went to visit Olson here at the Cloverdale Lockup. She begged him to tell his lawyer anything he knew about the missing children. She quoted scriptures from the Bible they had. She said he must repent if he wanted to go to heaven. But Olson attacked her. He choked her. I looked into his eyes, she said, and I knew then he was a killer.

[Arlene Bynon]

Joan remained defiant in the face of criticism that she should ever have taken the money.

[Gavin Crawford]

Then lawyer David Gibbons, who represents the families, took up the questioning. Referring to the $100,000 trust fund, Gibbons asked, you are living off the proceeds of his crimes, aren't you, Olson? No, Gibbons. You continue to receive monthly payments. Olson. That's maintenance. I like to eat. I like to feed my son and clothe him.

[Arlene Bynon]

By the time Clifford Olson and I started talking on the phone, it was a new decade and my attention was trained on him. The enigma of his psychology and whether he might slip up and tell me something new. Interviewing Joan wasn't my highest priority. Two things changed that. It dawned on me that Olson was always going to try to hide things and give me the runaround. Any answers he had about his upbringing, family, treatment of women, I wasn't going to find much truth in them. Speaking to Joan felt like the best way to find out who Olson really was when he was at home with nobody watching. Secondly, he kept trying to get me to visit him in prison.

[Clifford Olson]

The thing, what I don't like concerning you is that here you're doing a book on me, yet you have never come in to interview me. I think that you're scared to come in to interview me. Anybody that's doing a book on a serial killer should face the serial killer.

[Arlene Bynon]

Clearly, he was starting to think of me as more of a confidant. He was always trying to turn me into a girlfriend figure. But as horrifying as that was, I battled with the pros and cons of going. So who better to advise me than Joan? The question was, was she going to remain the silent wife with me? This is calls from a killer from CBC's Uncover. I'm Arlene Bynon. This is episode five. Joan. Actually, there was a third factor prompting me to interview Joan. Peter got to her first.

[Clifford Olson]

How come you never moved when they. When they wanted you to?

[Joan Olson]

I didn't do them. Avoid the hassle. I also. They were also around my son and my daughter, my parents.

[Arlene Bynon]

We were more than a year into our phone calls with Olsen, and Peter had flown west to Vancouver to talk to Olsen's lawyer, Bob Shant. Apparently, Shantz casually suggested calling Joan to get her to join them for Dinner at a restaurant. As you can hear from this noisy tape, she agreed, although she didn't really say much. Peter did most of the talking, especially when it came to the deal and the fallout.

[Clifford Olson]

But it seems to me you got. There's two things. What you accept for you is one thing, but, I mean, I don't know how you can. You've got to be thinking of your boy. I agree. You know, I think the more you look at it, I'm just not. I think it was the best investment they ever made.

[Joan Olson]

Oh, yeah.

[Arlene Bynon]

When he returned from his trip and told me he'd had this encounter, I was a bit perturbed, which Peter understood, even though we were on a joint project researching for a book. We were both journalists with a healthy sense of competition. But my bigger concern was that Peter felt we had all we needed from Joan, which, honestly, wasn't much. I felt there was more to her and her relationship with Olson that was yet to come out. And as a woman, I might have a better go with her. So I arranged my own meeting with Joan and would end up spending three days with her. When I turned up at Joan's home in residential Vancouver, the woman who opened the door wasn't the woman I'd seen yelling outside the courthouse. Her hair was still dark. She still wasn't particularly glamorous, but she was very meek and sweet and had this very nice laugh. I was struck. I offered to take her for lunch at a restaurant of her choice. She accepted and offered to drive. On the way there, I noticed what looked like a patch missing from her car's faux leather upholstery. And I brought it up. She said, well, this was Clifford's car, and they cut parts of it out to test for blood.

[Joan Olson]

Although I have a tendency to interrupt, my daughter's always following me out for interrupting. And I'm sure it's because of Clifford, you know, because if I didn't interrupt, interrupt, I wouldn't have a say anything.

[Arlene Bynon]

We got a table at the diner, Jones suggested, and after a little small talk, I started asking about her relationship with Olson, which, all in, only lasted a year. How did she meet him? When she began, it was like she was describing a real love story. But then the plot became troubling. She's out with her girlfriends at a bar in Coquitlam, bc. Clifford comes over and says to her that he loves her laugh, and they get talking. The next thing she knows, she wakes up and she's in a hotel room next to him in bed. She doesn't Remember how she got there?

[Joan Olson]

I don't know what went through my mind. I'd never done anything when it was in my whole life. I hope my mother would shoot me.

[Arlene Bynon]

She told me that for years, she just assumed she'd gotten too drunk. That's what Olson had told her and what she seemed to have believed. But then after his arrest, after hearing how he had drugged his victims, something clicked for her. In the moment, though, Olson was very charming and that morning asked her out to dinner.

[Joan Olson]

And my immediate reaction was that, well, I've slept with him anyhow, so I might as well sleep with him and find out what I. What I missed.

[Arlene Bynon]

Yes. In the early days of dating, Joan says she didn't know about Olson's extensive criminal record. All she knew was that he worked in construction, was romantic and always paying her compliments. Every time they'd go for dinner, he'd bring her a corsage is a strange gesture and only made sense to her later. Olsen had been in prison most of his life. He didn't know how to behave with a date. When Olsen finally confessed that he was out on parole, Joan said she had a hard time and was worried what her parents would think. But she carried on seeing him and moved in with him after only two months because he was the most considerate man she'd ever met. It's worth mentioning here that at the time Joe met Olson, she was an already divorced mother of two grown children. She had married young and had had to leave her first husband because he was abusive. It was over property owned by that ex husband, a boat that Joan first experienced how violent Olson could be to her. They were at the boatyard.

[Joan Olson]

Well, I didn't want him to touch the boat because I felt it didn't really belong to me. It belonged to my ex husband. And he was fiddling around with a motor, and he got quite violent. He was really, really mad. And he started pounding me, and I was down on the ground, but I couldn't see his face. So I don't know. But now that I think of it, I just said that his voice had changed.

[Arlene Bynon]

And then he was apologetic actor.

[Joan Olson]

Very, very apologetic.

[Arlene Bynon]

Over the next couple of months, Joan would endure a number of assaults. Olson would punch her in the nose when she tried to stop him from driving drunk. He'd give her a black eye in the car on the way to church. And Joan said something to me that made me think she was looking for an out, even then.

[Joan Olson]

Well, this time I know I got a black eye because he was always trying to explain to people because I wouldn't wear anything to cover it up. I wanted people to see it. When someone asked me, I wasn't embarrassed to tell him, you know, where I got it from. And he didn't like that. He didn't want anyone to know that he had hit me, you know.

[Arlene Bynon]

As for Olson, he would always make like he was contrite afterward.

[Joan Olson]

Well, the next day he was so apologetic and he just wooed me like he wouldn't bleed, treated me like a. I was a queen. And that he didn't know what had happened. He was a strong guy and I just wasn't him.

[Arlene Bynon]

And Joan believed him. She thought the only thing that changed the likelihood of encountering the other Clifford, as she put it, was whether or not he'd been drinking heavily. But in January 1981, when Olson was charged with the abduction and rape of 16 year old Kim Werbecki, Jones says she glimpsed for the first time who he really might be.

[Joan Olson]

We went up to get Clifford out of jail because he was charged with that rape charge. And I remember seeing Clifford come out and I was. It was a different person then.

[Arlene Bynon]

We know now that on July 9, 1981, Olson picked up, raped and murdered 14 year old Judy Kosma. Jones says that day, Olson was in a frenzy. He was suddenly adamant that they and their infant son needed to drive to California for a holiday in the early hours of the 10th, before they'd all packed into the car. Jones says Olson raped her. It was the first time she'd been subjected to that kind of violence from the man she'd only just married.

[Joan Olson]

He started talking and telling me that he didn't love me anymore, that he had just been using me, and he said he was going to rape me. I guess that's why I blocked it out, I don't know. But he was very, very violent.

[David Gibbons]

Did he force you to have that?

[Joan Olson]

Yeah, I was fighting and he seemed to really enjoy me fighting. It's just. Well, as I said, it was a different person that was doing it. He was enraged just like an animal. I remember thinking, why is he doing that?

[Arlene Bynon]

Why is he doing this? You can hear Jones ticking the tape here, a girly chuckle, often punctuating stories of abuse and shame. She knew I'd probably be appalled and felt that maybe she should be embarrassed. Joan had found herself trapped with a man whose real character was perhaps there to see all the while. And as she was about to tell me, the worst days were yet to come.

[Gavin Crawford]

Hey, I'm Gavin Crawford, host of because news, where comedians answer questions about the headlines for meaningless points. And one of our regular panelists is here. It's Alice Moran. Sup, Alice?

[Joan Olson]

Hi, Gavin.

[Gavin Crawford]

We always like having you on the show, partly because you're always up on the news, but mostly because of your vast knowledge of Pokemon and baseball.

[David Gibbons]

I feel like up on the news is a bit of a stretch, but.

[Arlene Bynon]

I like being on the show because.

[David Gibbons]

Every time you cover a sports story, you somehow make it about musical theater.

[Joan Olson]

It's Jellicle Songs for NHL Cats. Because news, it's like the news, but with laughs.

[David Gibbons]

Listen now, wherever you get your podcasts.

[Arlene Bynon]

Cats, Jellicoe, Songs for Jellicoe, NHL Cats.

[David Gibbons]

They bongled the whole entire thing.

[Arlene Bynon]

I mean, to set up the trust.

[David Gibbons]

Fund for his wife and child.

[Arlene Bynon]

I mean, you can't make this stuff up. This is Judy Cosma's sister, Bridget.

[David Gibbons]

I know that you spoke to Joan Olson.

[Arlene Bynon]

Yes, I do.

[David Gibbons]

I think the money probably all was spent. I don't think there was anything left for her. Not that I care.

[Arlene Bynon]

The Cosmas were one of the families who sued Joan and the two lawyers 40 years ago. And it's easy to detect that Bridget's feelings towards her were tarred by disgust at the cash for bodies deal. I tried to push back a little. She did get the money. And clearly there was a price to pay for her. Whether she planned on it or not. That was something that she had to wear for the rest of her life. But before I interviewed Joan myself, my opinion of her probably wasn't very different to Bridget's. Today, in preparation, Peter and I had access tape of police questioning Joan just after Olson was arrested. It's not hard to hear her reticence as ignorance, maybe even worse.

[Joan Olson]

Now, do you recall nights when he wasn't at home or nights when he was late in getting home? Before COVID Christine Water. Before the first incident in November, he slept at our place every night up till that one first one happened. Do you know where he was that night? He's in jail, as far as I know.

[Arlene Bynon]

When asked about the pivotal Kim werbecki attack.

[Joan Olson]

Okay, January 8th. Was arrested on the rape. Did you at that time have any idea that Clifford was a violent sexual attacker? No. Even though he raped a girl? I didn't think it was rape.

[Arlene Bynon]

The police also stopped just short of accusing Joan of being in on a fake burglary of her and Olson's apartment.

[Joan Olson]

The police officer who took the complaint told us that he thought that he didn't believe any of it because I Don't blame him. I wouldn't believe it either, but I did. He was considering bringing charges of mischief against two of you because he said he felt the whole thing was a phony deal. He said there were no signs of forced entry. And he said that you were very evasive and had a difficult time answering his questions. I was really upset. I was very upset.

[Arlene Bynon]

It's a frustrating listen. Joan rarely raises her voice above a whisper. She seemingly dodges easy questions and laughs off serious allegations against her husband. And only months later, when those allegations would end in criminal conviction, she would receive an eye watering sum as so called profit from those crimes. And she'd always keep her position that she deserved the money. But as I sat in a family restaurant 10 years on from when that interview was recorded, listening to Joan unburden herself, I started to understand. Joan genuinely believed after all she'd been through, she was owed her stipend, wasn't for maintenance. She'd been a passenger to evil in ways people could never understand. This was her compensation. According to Joan. When Olson was driving their little family down to California, Olson was in an ugly mood. They'd gone miles out of the way in order to use a remote border crossing into the states. And as the journey progressed, Olson kept demanding Joan wire $4,000 from her savings and hand it over. Joan initially refused. The first hotel they checked into was in Los Angeles, and Joan had to step out to get some painkillers for a headache. When she returned, Joan heard the baby screaming. When she went to comfort him, she noticed blood in the crib and and then the source of the blood, a slice wound on the left side of her son's chest. She started screaming herself, asking what had Olson done. And Olson, seated calmly watching tv, repeated the order, wire for the money. Joan, their son would be left with a permanent scarlet.

[Joan Olson]

Well, I like. I asked the doctor about it and he told me that that was if he had moved in and pushed the knife, it would have killed him right off.

[Arlene Bynon]

Course.

[Joan Olson]

He never ever met her, ever, ever that the baby did it. But I don't know how the baby, I mean.

[David Gibbons]

What'S the baby doing with the mic?

[Arlene Bynon]

When Olsen threatened the baby the next day, motioning to drown him in the hotel pool, Joan relented and withdrew the money he wanted. As she put it, the rest of the California road trip was less a vacation, more hostage taking. There were some days they could pretend they were regular tourists, like visiting the theme park, Knott's Berry Farm. But most of the time they were on the Road changing motels every couple of days. They ended up in a hotel outside San Francisco for a stretch. Jones said there was a sex worker hanging about outside. Really young, blonde with a roundish face. I found it eerie when Joan said I looked a bit like her. One day during their stay, Jones sent Olsen out to the store for baby formula. He was only supposed to be gone for a couple of minutes. Instead, Olson took hours. Joan told me that night as she watched Olson sleep beside her, she noticed he didn't have his buck knife strapped to his side as usual. When they left the hotel the next day, she also noticed that the sex worker was no longer on the corner. It was around this time that Joan says she started keeping a calendar, a sort of journal, noting down all these incidents. I don't know if she felt then that Olson was capable of the crimes he'd later confess to, but I think she had an instinct to keep a record because it was obvious that things were going terribly in their relationship. He was an alcoholic and unfaithful. He had raped her. He had harmed their son. It could only help her to recall everything. She jotted down the time she came home to find Olson in bed with a teenage boy named Danny who'd always been hanging around their house. She noted the night she walked into the bathroom and saw Olson scrubbing a hammer in the bathtub with a nail brush. And a visit to Olson's parents when she says she overheard them all in the kitchen. Olson's parents extremely distressed at something he'd just revealed. Later she saw him trying to destroy and dispose of kids clothing. Children's jean jackets that had been kept in their garage when they his jean jackets.

[Joan Olson]

And they would know They're a smiler kids.

[Arlene Bynon]

Ding duck.

[Joan Olson]

Oh, so they weren't. He had them from somewhere. Yeah, there was four jean jackets that I remember. He ended up throwing them in the dumpster.

[Arlene Bynon]

When I said goodbye to Joan at the restaurant, I couldn't wait to rush back to the hotel, call Peter, and fill him in on all the new information and leads she'd given. But then Joan called me sooner. She said, I'm starting to remember things I'd blocked out all these years. And she just started to gush about the nights Olsen stayed out late and how they lined up about finding the passport of West German tourist Sigrin Arndt in their home. About how she thinks the day she overheard his parents sobbing was also the moment Olson confronted his father for sexually abusing him and his parents. Guilt motivated them to keep his secrets quiet throughout it All Joan was very self deprecating and repeated to me, you must think I'm kind of stupid. And then she'd give her little laugh. It seems she knew very well she'd been perceived as the dumb, naive wife. How could she not have known? It was a question I'd heard so many times. No doubt she had, too. Public perception of the wives and girlfriends of serial killers had shifted back and forth over time. In Canada, there was Lynne Ellingson, girlfriend to the pig farmer serial killer Robert Pickton.

[Gavin Crawford]

Lynne Ellingson testified at Picton's trial that.

[Arlene Bynon]

She had driven around with him to pick up a sex worker. And Carla Homoca, who assisted her husband in raping and killing three girls, including her own sister. No one had any sympathy for them. The cases were clear cut. I mean, she should be in jail.

[Gavin Crawford]

For life for what she did, period. I think she's getting what she deserves.

[Arlene Bynon]

But then there were figures like Liz Kendall, who was American Ted Bundy's girlfriend for five years, apparently none the wiser. It's not a revelatory thought, but I truly believe that multiple things can be true at the same time. I think Joan was another of Olson's victims and that she was just the kind of vulnerable woman he could control and manipulate. I also think that she had her suspicions a calendar's worth and didn't act on them earlier. It's not that the disappearances and murders weren't in the news and Joan couldn't have known. One of the more bizarre revelations to come of the civil suit was that days before Olson's arrest, Joan says that Simon Partington, his youngest victim, came to her in a dream, asking for help. But as we know of many who are abused, Joan was truly terrified of Olson and what he might do to her if he sensed a betrayal. That fear took decades to subside.

[Joan Olson]

Would you rather he be dead? Be easier. Yeah, it would, wouldn't it? Yeah. Because there's always that party wanting to know if he's going to be after you. Yeah, I don't think he would. He's never said one. But you don't you. You weren't there when he. No. He blamed me.

[Arlene Bynon]

When our days together in Vancouver were coming to an end and Joan and I were on one of our last phone calls, I revisited the question of whether I should go see Olson in Kingston Penitentiary. There would be guards, I assured her, and he'd probably be handcuffed. She wasted no time and begged me, don't go, Arlene. You'd be everything to him. And he's got nothing to lose. Don't go. I chose to heed this advice a couple months later when his cell was turned over after an incident. They found a small homemade shank under his mattress. My refusal to go see him would remain a sticking point for the rest of my conversations with Olson. He could get pretty petty about it.

[Clifford Olson]

There's a lot of things that you don't know about murders. Where, how and when at all. I tried to put a thing together so you could get in here to visit with a God's blessing in disguise, that you even got your name on the visiting list. And I don't even see you some reporter you are. Somebody broadcaster. I'm not going to give interviews over phone. If I want to give interviews, I could phone the universities, which I got tons of letters to talk direct to criminologists and psychology students, classes of three and 400 people. So I can do that anytime.

[Arlene Bynon]

The other bone of contention was one of Joan's biggest claims. She had told me she suspected he was himself the victim of abuse, and I had an obligation to ask Olson directly. When I did, he denied it. When I pressed, he became ugly furious that he wasn't in control of the conversation and Joan anymore.

[David Gibbons]

Now, you talked about your father, and you said that your relationship with your father was really quite good.

[Clifford Olson]

Yeah, in the sense that just, you know, to have a few drinks that I did know with him, but we never did go anywhere together. He used to come to a few boxing matches, but that was it, you know. But we never went to play baseball, soccer or anything like that. Not a father relationship, that we went out hunting, fishing and all, stuff like that? No.

[David Gibbons]

Okay, well, you told me that, you know, you had a loving family home, but Joan says that you hated your father.

[Clifford Olson]

No, I didn't hate my father. My father was an alcoholic, but he could handle his drinking. You know, he drank, what, 26 or a day? Damn near.

[David Gibbons]

Well, she talked a lot about how you hated your father and that she said if you said it once to her, you said it a hundred times. Joan, I hate my father, and you don't understand.

[Clifford Olson]

No, I disagree with Joan on that. She's not gonna get away with something like that. No, definitely not. No, I love my father, but don't speak bad of the dad. I love my father. I love my mother. I don't care what Joan thinks at all. She's got her opinion and that's it. So let's not harp on the same thing.

[David Gibbons]

Okay, well, she harped on this, so I Have to go over the whole part of it because she was quite sure that she said you were wrong.

[Clifford Olson]

Go ahead.

[David Gibbons]

She remembers very clearly that you didn't like him very much and you talked to her about it, but you would never get into it. Do you know why she would think that?

[Clifford Olson]

I don't. I haven't got a clue, and I don't really care. You know, me and Joan are finished. She's got her own life, you know. Go ahead. Next question.

[David Gibbons]

Okay. Now, she told me about a conversation that she overheard between you and your father. And your father said to you, I have four children. I have grown children. Nobody would ever think I wasn't normal. No one would believe you. You said something to the effect of, well, I have a son now, too. And Joan said that she got the distinct impression that maybe you were talking about sex. Do you remember that?

[Clifford Olson]

No, not at all. Nothing whatsoever. You can never pick a tail end of a conversation up and interpret it. What you think about it, you know, that's the worst thing you can do. I know people that got killed for stuff like that.

[Arlene Bynon]

Okay.

[David Gibbons]

Did your father molest you at all, Clifford?

[Clifford Olson]

Oh, not at all. Never. Never at all. Neither did my mother. We never had any of that in our family at all.

[David Gibbons]

But you told me you had an uncle who molested you.

[Clifford Olson]

He didn't molest me. He tried to lie up top of me. He didn't molest me. I didn't say he tried to. That he molested me.

[Gavin Crawford]

No.

[Clifford Olson]

Go ahead. Next question.

[David Gibbons]

I'm interested in your father, and I'm wondering, and I know that many times that people who turn out to have done what you have done and killed as many people as you have have things in their family.

[Clifford Olson]

Yeah, but I think that's a lot of bullshit, too. And I've done a lot of research on that, too. I know what you're getting at. Person stands on his own merits of what he does in serial killers. I can only speak for myself. I enjoyed the killing. The drinking was the thing that released me into doing what I was doing. But I knew what I was doing at all times had nothing to do with my family. My upbringing, I thought, was pretty good. And I went and took this upon myself. This stuff had fallen back on. Because your parents molested you and your mother molested you, you become a serial killer. That's all. And anybody that wants to believe that is their self, that's my opinion. Go ahead.

[Arlene Bynon]

Next question. As the call dragged on, I wasn't going to let him lay blame on Joan so easily, as he had done for decades.

[David Gibbons]

Clifford, since the first time I talked to you, you said Joan would never lie. And you said she has an excellent memory. Now that I'm. Clifford, can I finish? Now that I'm asking you some rather painful things.

[Clifford Olson]

First of all, they're not painful things.

[David Gibbons]

Well, they seem painful because you're very angry with them.

[Clifford Olson]

Let's not get into philosophical debate here. You know, go ahead, get on with your questions.

[David Gibbons]

This is the question that I want to ask you.

[Clifford Olson]

Go ahead.

[David Gibbons]

Joan doesn't lie. Joan has a good memory. But everything I have asked you here today, Joan, is either lying or has a bad memory. What do you think I'm going to think?

[Clifford Olson]

Yeah, you can think what you want to think. You're writing the book, not me. You know, I'm just telling you my side of the facts. That said. Okay, continue.

[David Gibbons]

You know, Clifford, you talk about you and Joan and getting along so well. Since I've been talking to Joan, she told me that when you were in California, that she went out for something and came back and the baby had a slice wound in him.

[Clifford Olson]

She told me it could have been anything.

[Arlene Bynon]

You know, she told me that your parents.

[David Gibbons]

And she told me you hated your father and every single one of them.

[Arlene Bynon]

She's.

[Gavin Crawford]

Believe it yourself.

[David Gibbons]

Pardon?

[Clifford Olson]

Do you believe something like that? You got to remember she's been through a dramatic thing. I mean, you know, here.

[David Gibbons]

But I have to remember that I'm talking to somebody, Clifford, who's killed a lot of people.

[Arlene Bynon]

Hearing this back after so many years, I came to a realization. At some point in this conversation, I knew I wasn't going to unlock the mystery of how Clifford Olson came to be. He was a, quote, severe psychopath. To paraphrase the saying, if he was breathing, he was lying. My mission changed course to exposing those lies. This was a pivotal moment. I think I was changed after that. I believe it was because I'd met and gotten to know Joan. She'd admit she never had the courage to confront him when like this. But for a few years after his conviction, she had continued to write to Olsen in prison, an act of godly forgiveness. When we spoke on the phone after my exchange with Olson, she was elated. It was like she'd finally had an advocate in that relationship. Joan was far from the complicit woman, the silent wife that the public perceived her to be. And I'd learned more from her than from months talking to Olson, including that Joan believed he'd killed a young woman on their trip to California. Something he was never investigated for. It seemed clear to me that there had to be more victims than the 11 murders that Olson had been convicted of. I was determined to find as much evidence as I could and get him to confess to Moore.

[David Gibbons]

Okay, so you were involved in other murders?

[Clifford Olson]

Yes.

[David Gibbons]

And that because of deals, we're not finding out about them.

[Clifford Olson]

Right.

[Arlene Bynon]

He was right on the very front page of the province paper. And I went, oh my God, that's the guy that drove Verna. And I. I instantly knew that that was who had killed her or made her disappear.

[Clifford Olson]

The complete files of the murders and rapes of the following named persons in the province of British Columbia. Carmen Robinson from Victoria, BC Marnie Jamison from Gibson, BC Gail Ann Wiese from Kanlops, BC Verna Bergerki from BC Helen Hopcraft from.

[Arlene Bynon]

That'S Coming up on Calls From a Killer. Calls From a Killer was written and produced by me, Nathaniel Frum, Arlene Bynon and senior producers Ashley Mack and Andrew Friesen. Mixing and sound design by Evan Kelly. Emily Connell is our digital producer. Executive producers are Cecil Fernandez and Chris Oak. Tanya Springer is the senior manager and Arif Noorani is the director of CBC Podcasts. Tune in next week for an all new episode of Calls From a killer from CBC's uncover. Or you can binge the whole series by subscribing to our True Crime Premium channel on Apple Podcasts. Just click on the link in the show description. For more CBC Podcasts, go to CBC CA Podcasts.