S33 E7: The Escape | Calls From a Killer

Summary

Uncover: Calls From a Killer – Episode S33 E7: The Escape

Introduction

In the gripping final episode of CBC’s Uncover series, titled "The Escape," host Arlene Bynon delves deep into the harrowing story of Clifford Olson, one of Canada’s most infamous serial killers. This episode chronicles Bynon’s clandestine interactions with Olson, the intricate details of his numerous escape attempts, and the profound impact his crimes and actions had on the victims' families and the Canadian justice system.

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Arlene Bynon's Relationship with Clifford Olson

For nearly three years, Arlene Bynon, alongside esteemed journalist Peter Worthington, maintained secret jailhouse calls with Clifford Olson. Despite Olson’s prohibition from communicating with the media, Bynon’s determination to understand his motives and provide solace to the grieving families kept their exchanges ongoing.

[00:36] Arlene Bynon: "By the autumn of 1992, I'd been talking to Clifford Olson for nearly three years... I had this unprecedented access to Canada's most notorious criminal. I had to try, but my patience was wearing thin."

Olson often deflected responsibility for his heinous acts, attributing his violence to his years in prison without genuine remorse. Bynon, however, remained skeptical of his justifications.

[01:42] Arlene Bynon: "I didn't buy it and I told Olson as much. Even after all these times in prison, there's some things that you still won't tell people."

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Olson's Escape Attempts

Olson's penchant for escaping custody was a recurring theme in his interactions with Bynon. His pride in these escapes underscored his manipulative and defiant nature. In a revealing conversation from November 1992, Olson disclosed his latest escape plan:

[03:39] Clifford Olson: "I stole a handcuff key that was left on the desk about five months ago."

Bynon recounts how this was not Olson’s first escape attempt. With at least seven prior escapes dating back to 1957, Olson was exceptionally adept at evading authorities. His strategy involved meticulous planning, often feigning medical conditions to create opportunities for escape.

[09:53] Clifford Olson: "It's the same thing that I escaped back there in British Columbia from the Shaughnessy hospital there in 1965. I'd done the same thing down there, so I'm no dummy to when it comes to escaping."

Despite his expertise, not all his plans succeeded. In this instance, Olson’s attempt was thwarted when staff discovered the hidden key through an X-ray.

[10:47] Arlene Bynon: "They came in and showed me the X ray and says, 'He has a key.' I could hear him. They're talking right there. We're only 10ft away."

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The Decision to Break the Story

Realizing the gravity of Olson's escape plans and the potential threat he posed, Bynon felt compelled to expose the lax security conditions that allowed him such opportunities. This decision was fraught with personal and professional dilemmas, especially considering the potential loss of access to Olson and the retraumatization of the victims' families.

[11:31] Arlene Bynon: "As a journalist, I couldn't ignore. I had an obligation, both moral and professional, to make his attempted escape and lax security conditions public."

The revelation of Olson's escape attempts not only embarrassed the authorities but also highlighted systemic failures within the Canadian prison system. This breakthrough marked the end of Bynon's direct communication with Olson.

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Impact on Victims' Families

The episode poignantly captures the anguish and continued suffering of the victims' families. Bynon's interactions with them reveal the lingering pain and the complexities of confronting the man responsible for their loss.

[21:19] Arlene Bynon: "When Nat first reached out to me, we had to decide whether or not to open these boxes again, to open up this story once again."

Families like Sharon Rosenfeld, mother of Darren Johnsrud, expressed deep concerns about giving Olson a platform, fearing it would retraumatize them and glorify their son's murderer.

[15:20] Arlene Bynon: "You took the life from people... It's someone's brother, sister, child."

The emotional toll on both the families and Bynon herself underscores the profound human impact of Olson's crimes.

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Post-Olson Legacy and Policy Changes

Following the exposure of Olson's escape attempts, significant changes were implemented within the Canadian justice system. One notable outcome was the Eliminating Entitlements for Prisoners Act (Bill C31), which stripped pension benefits from federal inmates, including Olson.

[19:40] Nathaniel Frum: "Because of Peter's reporting, Olson and hundreds of other federal inmates had their pension benefits stripped by then Prime Minister Stephen Harper and his government."

Olson continued to exert influence from behind bars, leveraging the Canadian Charter of Rights and Freedoms to challenge prison conditions and policies. His relentless legal battles culminated in the amendment of the criminal code to prevent serial killers from seeking early parole.

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Reflections and Conclusions

In the concluding segments, both Arlene Bynon and Nathaniel Frum reflect on the enduring scars left by Olson's actions. Bynon grapples with the ethical complexities of her journalistic pursuits and the personal toll it took on her life.

[29:01] Arlene Bynon: "I think in this story, in a lot of ways, we shut it down and put it in a box and it seems like just such a disgrace and a tragedy. It really was a dark mark and we have to learn something from it."

Nathaniel Frum shares his journey from viewing the story as a mere narrative to a deeply personal tragedy, especially following the loss of his sister.

[27:01] Nathaniel Frum: "I incurred my own personal tragedy. With my sister unexpectedly passing this year, my ability to distance myself from the story suddenly evaporated."

The episode poignantly closes with reflections from the victims' families, emphasizing the perpetual search for closure and the indelible mark left by Olson's crimes.

[25:55] Arlene Bynon: "The stain of Olson will never truly be gone, but it may fade with time and with light."

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Conclusion

"The Escape" serves as a somber reminder of the enduring impact of serial crimes on individuals, families, and society. Through meticulous storytelling and firsthand accounts, Arlene Bynon and Nathaniel Frum illuminate the complexities of seeking truth, the ethical dilemmas inherent in journalism, and the relentless pursuit of justice and healing by those left behind.

Transcript

[Arlene Bynon]

Hi everybody. I'm Jamie Poisson and I host Front Burner. It's Canada's most listened to daily news podcast. Just the other day we were in a story meeting talking about how we can barely keep up with what's going on in Canada and the world right now. And like it's our job to do that. So if you are looking for a one stop shop for the most important and interesting news stories of the day, we've got you. Stop doom scrolling. Follow Front Burner instead. This is a CBC podcast.

[Nathaniel Frum]

The following episode contains descriptions of violence. Please take care when listening.

[Arlene Bynon]

By the autumn of 1992, I'd been talking to Clifford Olson for nearly three years. When he first called me, I was a young reporter convinced I could get into Olson's head to find a reason to provide answers to grieving families in a shocked nation. I had this unprecedented access to Canada's most notorious criminal. I had to try, but my patience was wearing thin. Now, why did you have the violence? It was never really clear.

[Clifford Olson]

Yes, it was. The violence was as I told you, it was the lockup and segregation unit for that nine years.

[Arlene Bynon]

You can talk to any criminologist, Clifford, and that doesn't make a man hate women and want to kill them.

[Clifford Olson]

Well, okay, to answer your question, it was from being locked up, simple as that. I turned to a hate which was released when I got out through alcohol and I took it out on women and children. Simple as that. And you understand that I become addicted to the murder after a while.

[Arlene Bynon]

Olson kept insisting that the criminal justice system was to blame. That his years incarcerated prior to his murder spree turned him to booze and that the alcohol turned him into a killer. I didn't buy it and I told Olson as much. Even after all these times in prison, there's some things that you still won't tell people. And I don't think that society can learn anything until you're willing to talk.

[Clifford Olson]

And you think I should give you the right to ever say no? I won't. Absolutely not.

[Arlene Bynon]

Oh, well, that's fine, Clifford. I mean, I'm the one who sat there with your ex wife for four times and went through your whole life history. I'm the one who's been through all your escapes and we've done all this research. I've driven up and down the strip places where apparently that you murdered. Now all of a sudden you're saying why should I tell you why I killed.

[Clifford Olson]

Come on, you got some problem, Arlene? I'll tell you what.

[Arlene Bynon]

Listen, I Don't have a problem.

[Clifford Olson]

We have a problem. Then I just won't call you anymore. You don't have to come in to visit me.

[Arlene Bynon]

Well, why every time when I ask you, do you get angry?

[Clifford Olson]

I don't get angry.

[Arlene Bynon]

As we spoke, I was realizing you can hear it in my voice, Olson. Even after years of conversations with me and Peter, either he had no idea why he killed, or he would never tell. I was starting to feel like I'd learned all I could from him. I'd heard him brag about killing children. I'd heard him take credit for murders, only to turn around and claim innocence in the next breath. And I'd received my share of abuse and anger from him. Nothing he said was shocking to me anymore. That is, until he said this.

[Clifford Olson]

I can escape anytime I want, Arley. I can put myself to go anytime I want.

[Arlene Bynon]

This tape is from November 1992.

[Clifford Olson]

I stole a handcuff key that was left on the desk about five months ago.

[Arlene Bynon]

It was just lying there?

[Clifford Olson]

Yeah, it was lying there. And they sent me out of the office and told me to wait. And I just picked it up, put it in my pocket, and I come back in.

[Arlene Bynon]

Clifford Olson was planning to escape.

[Clifford Olson]

I'll get out. I'll get out on an escape when I'm ready to go.

[Arlene Bynon]

This is the final episode of Calls from a killer. From CBC's Uncovered. I'm Arlene Bynon.

[Nathaniel Frum]

And I'm Nathaniel Frum. This is episode seven, the Escape.

[Arlene Bynon]

While Olson telling me about his plan to escape caught me off guard. It wasn't a complete surprise, and it was no idle threat. Olson had escaped prison at least seven times throughout his life. The first one in 1957, nearly 25 years before his arrest for the killings. In the CBC archives, we found silent news footage of a 1965 attempt. A young Olson is being led through thick bushes by a pair of police officers, hands behind his back, a smile on his face. Escaping is something Olson couldn't help but brag about. It was a point of pride for him. You've escaped seven times, as I understand, haven't you?

[Clifford Olson]

Yes, I have. Seven escapes. You want me to tell you every date? I got them here? I know.

[Arlene Bynon]

What? No, I know them. I know them. After another of his early escapes, Olson's father speaks to a local newspaper, saying, if he doesn't give himself up, I hope they get him before he does something really bad. The threat of Olson breaking out of prison felt so real that Peter and I had even spoken to each other about what to do if he ever got out. We reasoned that if Olson escaped, he would come to me first. At the time, I lived outside of Toronto in a relatively remote location at the end of a dead end road. Peter, the Korean War veteran and war correspondent, had come up with a plan. If Olson came to my door, tell him I was going to call Peter and we were going to help him get his story to the press. Then after I called Peter to grab one of the pokers from my fireplace and strike Olson when he wasn't looking, Peter said, just keep hitting him and when he falls to the ground, hit more. Don't stop until he's dead. It wasn't much of a plan, I know, but I thought it was unlikely I'd ever have to use it. After this admission from Olson, I wasn't so sure. The most notorious killer Canada had ever seen was telling me he'd been hiding a key to his handcuffs for five, five months. I couldn't believe what I was hearing. What are you going to do when you escape? I mean, do you think that people aren't going to try to kill you? You're a convicted killer.

[Clifford Olson]

Well, I. I don't want to hurt anybody. The thing is, I will go to Cuba. They don't have extradition there, all right? That's where I'll go. You know, and it's a sad thing that I don't get psychiatric help. I don't get put into any programs. I don't have to tell you that.

[Arlene Bynon]

You say you have nothing to lose. So are you going to kill again?

[Clifford Olson]

Let me tell you something. I would only kill in self defense. As far as I'm concerned. I'm not going to go out there and start killing people. But if I'm trying to be apprehended, definitely I'll defend myself if it's with police or anybody else. Harleen, any fool would do that. You're not going to stand there and let them shoot you.

[Arlene Bynon]

But serial killers don't get cured overnight. Clifford. I meant what I said. Serial killers don't get cured overnight. I truly thought that Olson would kill again if he ever got out of prison, whether through parole or escape.

[Clifford Olson]

I'm going to spend the rest of my life in jail, and I'm not prepared to do that. And one of these days, Arlene, I'm going to make a move and it's going to be a bloodbath.

[Arlene Bynon]

I knew that killing was something he enjoyed. So you can imagine I was more than a little unnerved when he called me to brag about his plans and to tell me about the seemingly lax conditions he was being held in.

[Clifford Olson]

I've been down to the hospital, what, five times? All five times I could have left the hospital. Nothing could have stopped me.

[Arlene Bynon]

Well, that seems very hard for me to understand that you do have a history of escaping and you've done some very creative escapes in your career, and now you've going to a hospital. It seems to me it's not very safe for the community. He not only managed to get out of prison and into the hospital, but had managed to steal a key to his own handcuffs. After so many previous escapes and attempts, Olsen had worked out his method. I was starting to figure it out. First, he laid the groundwork. Now, you've been telling me over these years of times that you've been to the hospital and how you could have walked away. And I know that is part of your method of operation to make people feel at ease. You don't do it the first time, you don't do it the second time, you don't do it the third time. By the fourth time, they think, hey, he knows the rules, he's not going to do it. And the fifth time you. You do it. Is that what was happening here?

[Clifford Olson]

Most certainly. You must lay your groundwork. Definitely, definitely. Like, the opportunity is, I had enough, you know, I'm not going to be staying locked up here inside a cage like I am the rest of my life.

[Arlene Bynon]

Then he faked a medical condition.

[Clifford Olson]

Right. I put a little blood in the urine by pricking my finger with the needle there.

[Arlene Bynon]

Okay, that's what I was going to ask you. So you this ailment was totally fictitious, False.

[Clifford Olson]

It's the same thing that I escaped back there in British Columbia from the Shaughnessy hospital there in 1965. I'd done the same thing down there, so I'm no dummy to when it comes to escaping.

[Arlene Bynon]

And finally, he'd make a break for it. You said that you took the key because you thought you were going to be there overnight. So to me, that means that you thought that maybe during the night or maybe in the morning, you would have seen an opportunity and you would have escaped. Escaped. I would have walked away.

[Clifford Olson]

Yeah, definitely. Most certainly.

[Arlene Bynon]

Olson's latest plan was both detailed and expertly practiced. But there was one fatal flaw where he hid the key.

[Clifford Olson]

But what had happened? It showed up on the X ray, so they brought me back. So I removed it immediately. It was inside a condom.

[Arlene Bynon]

And what did they say? They came in and said, clifford, you've got a key up your rectum. Like, what did they say?

[Clifford Olson]

Oh, they just come in and showed me the X ray and says, he has a key. I could hear him. They're talking right there. We're only 10ft away.

[Arlene Bynon]

The plan had failed this time, but Olson vowed to me he would do it again and that he wasn't going to rest until he was out of Kingston Penitentiary.

[Clifford Olson]

But to make things perfectly clear to you, and I don't want to alarm the public, and I'm not doing this for, as people say, but I am leaving the Kingston Penitentiary on an escape. Sooner or later, I'm making my plans and they can do what they want, but they're not going to be able to hold me.

[Arlene Bynon]

Olson had crossed a line that, as a journalist, I couldn't ignore. I had an obligation, both moral and professional, to make his attempted escape and lax security conditions public. As far as I was concerned, it was a matter of safety to me. It wasn't if he escaped. But when I knew the story was going to embarrass authorities and in all likelihood, end my access to Olson, the calls would be done. Breaking this story would also mean the public would learn that Peter and I had been secretly speaking to a serial killer for almost three years. So I brace myself. I finished my call with Olson that day, knowing I might never speak to him again. What might happen if Russia attacked the uk?

[Clifford Olson]

This is clearly an enormous show of force. It is definitely out of the ordinary.

[Arlene Bynon]

We ran a war game with former ministers back in the hot seat.

[Clifford Olson]

Ben Wallace, Amber Rudd, Jack Straw.

[Arlene Bynon]

It's the kind of war game that's genuinely tested inside government. The Russians are signalling that there may be an attack. Russia knows our weaknesses. But do you? I'm Deborah Haines from Sky News and Tortoise. This is the war game. Listen, wherever you get your podcasts. I knew I had an obligation to break this story, but I worried about what the families of Olson's victims would think about the fact I'd spent years talking to the man who had killed their children. It had been a decade since Olson was first convicted, but their grief was still so raw, and I was about to put him back into the news. You're listening to the best of Chronicle. Good morning. I'm Arlene Bynon. At the time, I was the host of Chronicle, a popular news program on chfi, a Toronto talk radio station. The day the story was set to air, I was nervous. That morning, I got a call from the mother of Terri Lynn Carson, one of his victims. She'd heard a promo for my interview with Olson. Don't do it, she said. Please don't do it. Hearing her say this, my heart sunk. I felt nauseous. She was so upset. She told me she worried that we would be giving Olson a platform, the man who was continuing to cause so much devastation for so many given another moment in the spotlight, all because of me. For a moment, I considered calling it off. Terry and I talked on the phone for a long time. As we spoke, we came to an understanding. I explained about Olson's plans to escape, about how close he'd gotten to getting out, and that he would keep trying until he did. Terry knew better than anyone what Olson would do if he were free. He would murder children. And she also knew that we had to do whatever we could to stop that from happening. After talking to Terry, we decided to only include the details about Olson's escape attempt. And then the audience heard what would end up being my very last interview with Olson.

[Clifford Olson]

There's a lot of people that's not locked up like Clifford Robert Olson. Year after year, 11 years in a cell 5ft by 12.

[Arlene Bynon]

But you've killed a lot of people. What do you want? Do you want to stay in a hotel?

[Clifford Olson]

What do you think? Do. Don't you believe in corrections yourself? Don't you believe that a man should have or a woman should have some right to inhuman decency?

[Arlene Bynon]

As we say, the most basic human decency is life, and you took the life from people. The same day, Peter published an article in the Toronto Sun. The headline, olson, I can escape anytime I Want. The story was out. A few months later, I received a sad letter from Olson asking me to call him again. And not long after, I received a form to sign if I wanted to be on his contact list. I didn't respond. After three years, I was finally done with Clifford Olson.

[Nathaniel Frum]

While that would be the last time Olson would speak with Arlene, he continued to communicate with my grandfather, Peter. Following his latest escape attempt, Olson's telephone privileges were temporarily revoked. And after he was discovered to have smuggled a broom handle into his cell, he was sent to a federal penitentiary in Prince Albert, Saskatchewan. Corrections Canada said they made the transfer specifically due to his possession of contraband and because he was publicly talking about his plans to escape. In 1997, Olson was transferred again to a prison outside Montreal. After spending so much of his life behind bars, this was the final place he'd be incarcerated. To nobody's surprise, from prison, Olson continued to play the victim, this time using the Canadian charter of rights and freedoms. The charter was established to enshrine the civil rights of all Canadians. But Olson tried to use it to his advantage. Here's Peter speaking with another reporter.

[Clifford Olson]

Well, Olson has picked up his charter of rights and just plays it like a fiddle. Nobody else in the country quite knows what it means. You know, he's had something like 21 or 22 Supreme Court cases, reaches right to the top. Well, you know, he's now going right to the Supreme Court trying to get a sex doll in prison with him.

[Nathaniel Frum]

He used every petty grievance to try to better his situation in prison, from access to porn to receiving books and movies about serial killers. He mounted so many legal challenges that the criminal code was amended so serial killers like Olson could no longer apply for early parole. And perhaps most disturbingly, Olson spent much of his time in prison tormenting the victims families. The man who killed their children was sending them letters.

[Arlene Bynon]

He recently sent a letter to the parents of one of his victims, 16 year old Darren Todd Johnsrud. In his letter, Olsen threatens to sue Rosenfeld for defaming his character. Saying, I've never been convicted of any sexual offense, nor are there any convictions on my record for any sexual offenses. Olson went on to say, so smartass, we will see you in court. Hope you have a lot of extra moneys to pay the legal bills.

[Nathaniel Frum]

Olsen would continue to call my grandpa for over a decade. More into the 2000s, the calls became increasingly incoherent and Olson's claims got stranger and stranger. His letters to the victims families became more gruesome and he claimed to have inside information about the September 11 terrorist attacks. But Pete, never one to turn down a source, was able to break one last story from Olson.

[Clifford Olson]

The Prime Minister says he is upset about it and apparently so are a lot of Canadians.

[Arlene Bynon]

Taxpayers are funding a public pension for notorious serial killer Clifford olson. More than $1,100 a month.

[Nathaniel Frum]

Olson, who could never resist a chance to brag, told my grandfather Peter about the pension checks he'd been receiving under the government's old age security and guaranteed income supplement programs. Again, even from behind bars, Olson was managing to engender fury from the public. Because of Peter's reporting, Olson and hundreds of other federal inmates had their pension benefits stripped by then Prime Minister Stephen Harper and his government.

[Arlene Bynon]

I am really very pleased to be here to discuss Bill C31, the Eliminating Entitlements for Prisoners Act.

[Nathaniel Frum]

Former Human Resources Minister Diane Finley.

[Arlene Bynon]

This not only angers Canadians, but it's also outrageous and offensive to myself, to.

[Nathaniel Frum]

The Prime Minister and to our government. Olson added, suing the federal government about this to his long list of legal grievances. Later that year, Olson even asked Peter to testify at a parole hearing as a character witness. Peter said he would, much to my grandmother's alarm. He then told her, I'm going to say Olson should be taken out back and hung. That parole hearing never happened. In 2011, Clifford Olsen died of cancer. It was a quiet and underwhelming end to his story. Ahead of his death, Corrections Canada got in touch with the victims families, telling them that Olson was was in his last days.

[Arlene Bynon]

I don't know how to feel. It's almost like sacrilegious. If I feel pleased that somebody is dying, my son summed it up. He said, you know, mama, he won't be able to hurt us again. After 30 years, he won't be able to hurt us. When I heard the news, I couldn't help but think about what I knew, about what he had told me throughout those many hours. Jailhouse phoned to his ear. And more than that, I couldn't help but think about what he hadn't told me. Olson knew more than he ever revealed to me and Peter. But whatever secrets he still had died with him. When Nat first reached out to me, we had to decide whether or not to open these boxes again, to open up this story once again. People consume true crime because it brings them into contact with the most dangerous people in the world while remaining safe. But those who have felt the impact of Olson's horrific crimes, friends and family like Bridget and Trudy and Kathy and Sharon, they were not safe. I could stop picking up the phone and answering letters. I could walk away. They couldn't. In the years after Olson's arrest, some families chose to appear at parole hearings to deliver impact statements or advocate for victims rights. Others protected themselves by staying away from the media or from Parliament Hill, privately and quietly trying to heal from an unimaginable loss. But before anyone even knew the name Clifford Olson, even as their children were still disappearing from the lower mainland, the families were reaching out to each other. The first person that I was able to contact was Terri Lynn Carson's mom, Sharon Rosenfeld. Obviously, police wouldn't give us any information, so I just kept phoning every Carson in the phone book. I luckily was able to get the right name. I knew how our family was feeling and I knew her daughter was missing and she must be feeling the same. As a young reporter, I watch these families navigate an impossible situation. As more children were found, this community Tied together by heartbreak grew. We stumbled around a bit because, well, who knows what to say to each other other than we were very, very mixed up. And so her and I thought it would be a good idea to maybe try and contact other families as the children went missing. Many of them have stayed in touch with each other to this day. I had always wondered what the families thought of me. A reporter who had spent so much time talking to the man who had murdered their loved ones. A journalist there to report on the most difficult days of their lives. And now here we are speaking again for this podcast. Bridget, thank you. From the bottom of my heart, thank you. I was with you when you went back there. You know, I. I buried a lot of stuff myself, too. And it's all coming out as I go back. Of course, I can't even imagine. I don't even know how. Be able to process what, you know, from the killer's mouth. For me, it was traumatic to go every two years to a prison. And all I can stare at was his hands, those. That monster's hands. Knowing that those hands took the life of 11 innocent children. Doesn't matter where they came from or who they were, that was someone's brother, sister, child. Thank you again. I.

[Clifford Olson]

Thanks.

[Arlene Bynon]

Arlene, I know this is hard for you. Not as hard as it is for you. So that's 1,000%, Bridget. Thank you. Are you okay? Are you okay? Do you want to talk a little bit more? I hate to hang up after everything. No, no, no, of course not.

[Clifford Olson]

It's fine.

[Arlene Bynon]

Nat. You know, when we started this, I knew what was on the tapes. I just knew that one would go in and I'd go, oh, I remember that day. And I did it with your grandfather Peter. And I remember when we first spoke about it, you just listened to those tapes. And asking you what you thought the story was, it was completely different than my perception. But you were on it all fresh. So is it different? I mean, what did you think it was? And what did it end up being?

[Nathaniel Frum]

You know, listening to those tapes for the first time, not knowing what. What was going to be on them, the first thing I came away thinking was just how mundane. He talked about everything, what he was saying, the content of what he was saying was shocking and disturbing and upsetting, but there was a banality to it that he just sort of listed things unapologetically, unremorsefully. But then as we started to talk with the victim's families, I realized I hadn't fully grasped the horror of what he had done and exactly what it meant when he said he killed a child. When I approach this story too, I don't know how this will sound, but I was very much, as we said in the first episode, a filmmaker looking for a story. And I approached it just as that, a story. And then I incurred my own personal tragedy. With my sister unexpectedly passing this year, my ability to distance myself from the story suddenly evaporated. This was suddenly hitting home, hitting a nerve and talking to these victims families, listening to them cry, crying with them. And perhaps it's self centered to say this, but I realized for the first time what it truly meant to lose someone.

[Arlene Bynon]

And you know, when your sister died and we had to keep going, I wanted to think of ways that I could protect you from what you just described, because I thought this must be raw.

[Nathaniel Frum]

It makes you re evaluate every true crime story you've ever watched, every podcast you've listened to. But it's important to remember these are real people and real families who have experienced a loss that you and I can't imagine. I wish I could ask Pete this too. You know, you spoke to him. You both spoke to him. You spent years trying to figure out what made him tick. And we couldn't figure it out. What was the point to this? Is it just to shine light on a story that needed to be told? Or is how do you look back on it and say, I'm glad we did this?

[Arlene Bynon]

I know. You know, I remember doing it and it used to haunt me all the time. But, you know, I think about it as soon as I opened the box and I waited a long time, as you know, to do the story, because what was the point? And I think I go back covering crimes and modern stories, and I see that we haven't really learned, have we? Have we really learned from it? It still happens. People can be fooled. Police can be fooled. Victims are judged. They are. I do think the point of it is still almost the same, but I think in this story, in a lot of ways, we shut it down and put it in a box and it seems like just such a disgrace and a tragedy. It really was a. A dark mark and we have to learn something from it. And I wasn't so sure at the time we did. So I hope it helps more this time. I think of Olson's legacy like a stain, one that was left on the victims, on the families, on the country, and on me. The stain of Olson will never truly be gone, but it may fade with time and with light. My life is different now. You know, I think I know enough ugly things about what life can do and what some people can do. Sharon Rosenfeld, the mother of Darren Johnsrud and I think I've been hurt down to my toes time and time again and. And so in my latter years, I just want to just love my family and find peace. Trudy Cord, the sister of Ada Cord But I think in the end, 40 years later, I think I'm probably just coming to terms with everything. Like, it's been a process a lot of years I don't remember, but now as I get older, I think I'm finally becoming okay. Bridget Cosma, the sister of Judy Cosma I know it's been a long time, but my wish has always been to honor these 11 children, and I think that they should be remembered. There's never closure. You try to cope as best you can.

[Clifford Olson]

You can't change a broken heart.

[Arlene Bynon]

Calls From a Killer was written and produced by me, Arlene Bynon, Nathaniel Frum and senior producers Ashley Mack and Andrew Friesen. Mixing and sound design by Evan Kelly. Emily Cannell is our digital producer. Fact checking by Hadil Abdel Nabi. Our cross promo producer is Amanda Cox. Our video producers are Evan Agard, Tamina Aziz and John Lee. Special thanks to Alina Ghosh, David Downey, Julian Uzieli, David Grein, Yvonne Worthington, Isabel Frum and the CBC Reference library. Additional audio from Rogers Broadcasting. Our podcast artwork was designed by Good Tape Studio. Executive producers are Cecil Fernandez and Chris Oak. Tanya Springer is our senior manager, Arif Narani is the director and Leslie Merklinger is the executive director of CBC Podcasts. If this is your first time listening to Uncover, you should know that this feed brings you the best in true crime. And There are over 30 seasons to check out. A season that has really stuck with me is the Village, which details how serial killer Bruce McArthur targeted the queer community in Toronto.

[Nathaniel Frum]

And I recommend Hunting Warhead, a harrowing dive into the darkest corners of the Internet. You can find both of these seasons and many more right here in the Uncover feed.

[Arlene Bynon]

For more CBC Podcasts, go to CBC CA Podcasts.