S35 E3: The Assignment | Allison after NXIVM

Summary

Podcast Summary: Uncover — "Allison after NXIVM"

Season 35, Episode 3: The Assignment
Published: November 17, 2025
Host: Natalie Robomed (CBC)

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Overview

This episode, "The Assignment," offers a deeply personal and disturbing look at Allison Mack's role inside NXIVM, focusing on her experiences and decision-making as a high-ranking member of DOS—the secretive women's group at the heart of the sex cult allegations. Through exclusive interviews with Allison, her mother, and others close to her, the episode unpacks Allison's psychological descent, her connection to Keith Raniere, and the intricate dynamics that allowed abuse, manipulation, and coercion to flourish. This is a harrowing narrative about cult mentality, control, and the complex boundaries between victimization and responsibility.

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Key Discussion Points & Insights

Allison's Life in NXIVM & DOS

• Living with India Oxenberg
  • Allison describes her artistic taste and living arrangements with India, who was both her close friend and her first "slave" in DOS.
  • “India and I shared all of our clothes. We called it the universal closet.” (02:08, Allison Mack)
• Introduction to the Assignment
  • Keith Raniere instructs Allison to give India a “mission”: seduce him—framed as a therapeutic exercise for both women.
  • Allison recalls feeling manipulated by Keith’s justifications and her own desire to be helpful:
    • “I believed him and wanted to do a good thing… so I did that with India.” (03:10, Allison Mack)

The Culture of Coercion & Manipulation

• Nude Assignments and Compliance
  • DOS members, including Allison and her recruits, are ordered to take explicit nude pictures as proof of obedience.
  • Allison reflects on the normalization of discomfort:
    • “If it’s uncomfortable, it means we’re coming up against our issues… That means that we’re growing, right?” (04:53, Allison Mack)
• Enforcement of Diet and Routine
  • Members are subjected to extreme caloric restriction, endurance drills, and detailed reporting of daily schedules to Keith.
  • “I would stay under a certain weight, under 107 pounds… 500 calorie a day diet… I was anorexic.” (12:35, Allison Mack)
• Permanent Reminders and Self-Denial
  • Physical symbols of devotion (e.g., permanent belly chains, and the use of a “solis,” a spiked undergarment).
  • “So a solis was like… a strap… sewn… with little spikies on the end… kind of poking you, stabbing you all day… I used to wear that… if I overate as, like, a punishment.” (16:53, Allison Mack)

The Sexual Control and Abuse

• Keith’s Sexual Manipulation
  • Sex with Keith is framed as “energy work” and part of healing, with Allison required to have sex with him daily.
  • He controls women's perceptions of what is happening:
    • “He would take ownership and responsibility… so that it all came back to him being the source of these experiences…” (21:17, Allison Mack)
• Expansion of Sexual Control
  • Allison is pressured to recruit more women for Keith, using assignments as a method of sexual exploitation.
  • Notably, one recruit ("Nicole") is subjected to blindfolded sexual activity (neither acknowledged nor prevented by Allison).
    • “She came back and had, like, indentations on her face from the mask… and I was like, fuck, you're really brave.” (26:48, Allison Mack)
    • “It was incredibly naive… I trusted that Keith would not do anything.” (27:56, Allison Mack)

Financial Exploitation

• Draining Members' Finances
  • Members, including Allison, spend exorbitant amounts on courses and services, sometimes depleting their savings or fortunes.
  • “I mean, I was blowing through 60, $100,000 on intensives and trainings… I was getting an EM once a week at least.” (29:13, Allison Mack)
  • The Bronfman sisters bankroll much of NXIVM, pouring estimated $100 million into Keith’s ventures (30:53).

Obedience, Internalized Beliefs, and Collapsing Reality

• Master-Slave Dynamic and Indoctrination
  • The belief system instructs members to “love your master beyond everything,” to deny negative feelings, and to see self-denial as virtuous.
  • Allison details the daily meditation on Keith’s “goodness” (14:11).
• Branding Rituals
  • Women are branded with Keith’s initials, falsely presented as a symbol of empowerment and sisterhood.
  • Allison’s firsthand account:
    • “He branded me… and I put the tape over it, gave me a lollipop, and went back and taught the rest of the intensive.” (18:56, Allison Mack)

Breaking Point & Public Exposure

• Sarah Edmondson’s Revelation
  • Branding gets exposed when Sarah’s husband discovers her mark, leading to panic, departures, and media headlines.
  • Mindy Mack, Allison’s mother, is warned by Sarah, but Allison dismisses her concerns—echoing Keith’s narrative that dissenters are simply disgruntled (37:27).
• Denial and Delusion
  • Even as law enforcement closes in, Allison clings to the belief that nothing criminal has occurred:
    • “I was just like, it’s fine. They’re gonna understand… It’s, like, completely disconnected from reality in my delusional belief that everything is fine.” (39:20, Allison Mack)
• Public Defense
  • Keith and Allison prepare to defend NXIVM, even as the reality around them crumbles.

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Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• On the normalization of discomfort:
  • “We all had the common belief that if it’s uncomfortable, it means we’re coming up against our issues. And so that’s a good sign...” (04:53, Allison Mack)
• On dangerous compliance:
  • “I was so thin that I could touch my fingers together around my waist. I mean, I was anorexic.” (12:35, Allison Mack)
• On cult mentality:
  • “None of you are victims. All of you are here because you want to be here. All of you are here because you’re committing to your growth.” (28:21, Allison Mack, relaying Keith’s doctrine)
• On sexual exploitation presented as empowerment:
  • “Push yourself. Love harder, love more… all the while, it’s like this fucked up sexual fantasy…” (25:00, Allison Mack)
• On family heartbreak:
  • “I was horrified. I was hurt that she didn’t trust me… it was Keith’s idea, of course.” (32:52, Mindy Mack)

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Key Timestamps

• Artistic Apartment/Living with India: 00:47 – 02:15
• India's Assignment – Seducing Keith: 02:27 – 04:32
• Nude Photos & DOS Routine: 04:44 – 05:46
• Daily Control & Schedule: 08:38 – 12:35
• Permanent Jewelry & Self-Harm: 16:01 – 16:53
• Branding Ritual Account: 18:56 – 19:34
• Sexual Coercion as Healing: 20:36 – 21:52
• Nicole’s Assault & Allison's Naivety: 25:52 – 28:08
• Financial Drain: 29:13 – 30:53
• Marriage for Immigration: 31:44 – 32:45
• Branding Exposure & Fallout: 34:44 – 38:25
• Denial as FBI Approaches: 39:20

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Tone and Style

The episode is chillingly intimate, blending Allison's almost casual confessions with a journalistic, matter-of-fact narration. There is a persistent undercurrent of horror—heightened by Allison’s own shock at her actions in hindsight, her mother’s heartbreak, and the reporter’s clear-eyed recognition of the mechanisms of manipulation.

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Conclusion

This episode peels back the layers of control, obedience, and rationalization that defined Allison Mack’s existence in NXIVM. Through “the assignment,” the harrowing details of starvation, self-punishment, branding, sexual coercion, and financial exploitation come alive, revealing not just the extreme ends of cultic abuse but the murky gray zones where influence, complicity, and psychological control blur personal accountability and victimhood. The story ends on the edge of collapse—the moment before the world discovers the real truth about DOS, Allison, and Keith Raniere.

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For listeners who want to understand how seemingly rational people participate in abuses within cults, or how manipulation works on intimate and organizational levels, this episode is a must.

Transcript

[Narrator/Host]

Don't you just love those days when you're sitting alone, maybe reading or listening to a podcast and not talking to anyone? According to Kiran Desai, author of the Loneliness of Sonia and Sunny, sometimes solitude can be a gift.

[Alison Mack]

There was nothing more beautiful than being alone, watching the snow fall slowly outside, starting to write myself. So it was kind of a heaven really.

[Narrator/Host]

Next time you're settling in for some quality alone time, head to Bookends with Mattea Roach to hear that conversation. Available now, wherever you get your podcasts.

[Narrator/Reporter (Natalie Robomed)]

This is a CBC podcast.

[Alison Mack]

Campsite Media.

[Narrator/Reporter (Natalie Robomed)]

Allison Ma is in her home in Knox woods outside Albany. She's moved from her townhouse to a freshly renovated apartment that's got two bedrooms, dark hardwood floors and a new kitchen with marble countertops. It's furnished beautifully with a beige mid century modern sofa, an antique purple rug, and lots of art on the walls.

[Alison Mack]

I thought it was pretty artsy, fartsy, you know what I mean? Like my taste is still the same, you know, I mean I brought my furniture from my brownstone in Brooklyn, this cool like antique Indian print chair that was mid century but with Indian fabrics and then like this big cool bookcase that was like a wrought iron circle, recycled wooden slats that had sculptures and books and candles and stuff on it.

[Narrator/Reporter (Natalie Robomed)]

Alison lives here with her roommate, India Oxenberg. India is in her early 20s, about a decade younger than Alison. She's from Malibu with a sun kissed blonde, dreamy California look. She's an amazing cook, has done some acting. Her mom is Yugoslavian royalty with a very posh British accent. An actress who appeared in the long running soap Dynasty. India's lineage is one of money and beauty.

[Narrator/Commentator]

The pair are close.

[Alison Mack]

India and I shared all of our clothes. We called it the universal closet and we just wore each other's clothes all the time.

[Narrator/Reporter (Natalie Robomed)]

But it's more than that because India is the first woman Alison has recruited to serve under her in Das. She is Alison's slave.

[Alison Mack]

Now.

[Narrator/Reporter (Natalie Robomed)]

Keith has told Alison she must give India a mission, one that is important for both of them.

[Alison Mack]

The logic behind it was like, oh, now he's going to work on me and my jealousy issues and my feelings of insecurity around this young beautiful woman. And he's going to help India with her struggles around her acceptance of her sexuality and her body and all these things. And I was like, why? And he was like, well, hasn't it helped you? And don't you think that it's gonna help her and I'm not gonna take advantage of her? That's not what this is about. I'm not like other men. And so this is the opportunity for her to explore her sexuality and her body and be comfortable in herself without being exploited. I would never take advantage of her that way. And blah, blah, blah, fuck, you know, I believed him and wanted to do a good thing and wanted to work on my own jealousy and wanted to do all the things, so I did that with India.

[Narrator/Reporter (Natalie Robomed)]

So sitting there on the couch, surrounded by Alison's plush pillows and artsy items from her travels, Alison talks to India.

[Alison Mack]

I think I just said, like, so what's the thing that you feel, like, the most nervous and uncomfortable about in your relationships with men?

[Mindy Mack (Alison's Mom)]

You know?

[Alison Mack]

And, like, how do you feel about seduction? How do you feel about getting close to someone? How do you feel about intimacy? Okay, so I have an assignment that's going to push you through that. You're going to seduce somebody. You're going to seduce Keith. And I'd be like, he's the only man that you could seduce that's not going to take advantage of you, you know? And it's like, he's going to respect you.

[Narrator/Reporter (Natalie Robomed)]

India is getting ready to fly home to her family in California, but Alison pressures her not to.

[Alison Mack]

I was like, you have to change your flight. You have to change your flight. You have to do it before you leave, you know? And all the while, I have Keith writing to me, pushing me to get her to finish the assignment, you know, before she leaves.

[Narrator/Reporter (Natalie Robomed)]

Because the assignment had one specific task, one particular endpoint.

[Alison Mack]

The assignment was to seduce Keith to the point where he would take a picture of you without your clothes on, and then they would text the picture to me so that I knew that the assignment was completed.

[Narrator/Reporter (Natalie Robomed)]

Nude pictures weren't new to Alison. When she met with the other first members of dos, the group had to take and send a new picture to Keith.

[Alison Mack]

It was always at the beginning of the meeting so we didn't have to sit naked the whole time. We all had the common belief that if it's uncomfortable, it means we're coming up against our issues. And so that's a good sign. That means that we're growing, right? So, like, all of us fed into that. All of us believed that, and all of us supported each other in that.

[Narrator/Reporter (Natalie Robomed)]

Taking these nude photos as a group almost became routine. But the individual pictures, the ones Keith had India and Allison's other slaves take when he was with them alone, these pictures went one step further. They often involved the women lying in a very vulnerable position, faces visible, legs spread, genitals on full display. These images would become trophies for Keith, a perverse collection of photographs he kept on hand.

[Alison Mack]

And in my understanding, the assignment never involved him touching them or him having any type of sexual interaction with them outside of them being unclothed and him taking a picture.

[Narrator/Reporter (Natalie Robomed)]

From Campside Media and CBC, this is, this is Allison after NXIVM from CBC's Uncover. I'm Natalie Robomed. This is episode three, the Assignment.

[Narrator/Commentator]

So in November 2016, something pivotal happens. Keith's long term girlfriend, Pam Caffritz dies. Keith is distraught.

[Alison Mack]

Keith wanted to have like a huge memorial service for her.

[Narrator/Commentator]

But this wasn't just a traditional memorial service.

[Alison Mack]

He like wanted us to create stations that represented like different ways in which Pam expressed herself in the world.

[Narrator/Commentator]

Keith wanted to set up an exhibition of sorts, a living shrine filled with Pam's belongings and like made me in.

[Alison Mack]

Charge of making basically like a Pam museum.

[Narrator/Reporter (Natalie Robomed)]

All of a sudden, Allison has a huge new role to play. She starts sifting through Pam's clothes, touching the decades of incidentals this woman's life has left behind, gathering the items so she can recreate Pam, Keith's favorite girlfriend, in different scenarios.

[Alison Mack]

You saw like her suits and like her collars and like this was what she looked like when she was doing this case and like this is where she was when she, you know, these were her pens and like it was like that.

[Narrator/Commentator]

So for this memorial which took place, Alison says, in a big ballroom, Alison and other NXIVM followers dress up mannequins in Pam's clothes. Just imagine looking at these mannequins like the ones you'd see in a clothing store, except here they're set up in different positions with this dead woman's clothes on them and Alison was in charge of it. It's a bizarre tribute and also a pretty revealing one because it seems as though Keith is having Allison stage the life she's about to inhabit. With Pam gone, Allison is now stepping up as one of Keith's main girlfriends, one of his most important partners. And with that, she has an important role to play in doss. Keith told Allison and the other first seven DOS members, called First Line Masters to replicate with their own slaves what they'd been doing in dos. And what they'd been doing in DOS was pretty extreme. Here's what Alison's life looked like at this point.

[Alison Mack]

So I Woke up at 5am and I got out of bed right away and I took a one minute cold shower. I remember once I was working on a TV show and I Had to take a cold shower. And the water was so cold in New York City that it froze the conditioner into my hair. And so I showed up on set and the hairdresser was like, going to do my hair. And she was like, what is in your hair? And that was just standard every morning. And I waited to weigh myself until after the one minute cold shower so that my body could settle and I could get an accurate read on my weight. When I go to bed, I always had to text my schedule for the next day to Keith, asking permission if that schedule was suitable for him. And part of that was I would write down everything I was gonna do and at what time I was gonna do it, and then how it a character trait that I was trying to build in myself. So, like, discipline or compassion or care or curiosity or commitment. Like, so every single thing that I did was related to some purpose of my character building kind of a thing. And it was literally like, to the minute. And then I would make myself breakfast, which was usually, not usually, always kabocha squash, plain nonfat Greek yogurt, a little bit of honey, a little bit of almond butter, and maybe some blueberries.

[Narrator/Commentator]

Lunch was a salad. Dinner was glass noodles with kale, jalapeno peppers, and more kabocha squash. Alison ate so much squash during this time that her skin actually changed color.

[Alison Mack]

Yeah, my palms turned orange, my face turned orange. My mom was like, you need to not eat so much squash.

[Mindy Mack (Alison's Mom)]

Her hand was like a light orange all the time.

[Narrator/Commentator]

Mindy Mack, Alison's mom, she said, oh.

[Mindy Mack (Alison's Mom)]

It'S just because that's all I eat. And I said, well, you probably ought to have some protein. And it was really difficult for me. It was a tightrope walk because I didn't want to push her away. And she was right on the edge all the time of, don't push me, you know, because I'll be gone.

[Narrator/Commentator]

But Alison was already gone because she was asking Keith for permission for every single thing, including texting Keith for approval before she was allowed to eat anything.

[Alison Mack]

So when I became a part of das, one of the commitments was that I would stay under a certain weight, under 107 pounds. He wanted me between 105 and 107 pounds.

[Narrator/Commentator]

Alison is 5 foot 5, so 105 pounds is significantly underweight for someone of her height. To achieve this absurd goal weight, Keith put her on a 500 calorie a day diet, less than a third of what's recommended for an adult woman. Basically a starvation regimen.

[Alison Mack]

I wasn't allowed to eat after five. So from five to five, I fasted every day. I was running six miles a day. I was like, really into half marathons. So I was running at least six miles on 500 calories. And I was very into yoga, so I was doing yoga. I did yoga every morning for about six years. I used to chew so much gum because I was so fucking hungry all the time and so anxious, like, so on edge all the time. And I only chewed cinnamon gum because cinnamon gum doesn't have aspartame in it. So I was still being healthy, but the inside of my mouth was raw from all of the gum because the cinnamon gum would, like fry your mouth and I'd have like an entire pack in my mouth at one time. Like, I obsessively chewed gum and drank sparkling water. I fasted every Monday. That was my holy day or whatever. So I wouldn't eat the whole day on Monday, which is crazy because it was actually like a day and a half because I would stop eating at five o' clock on Sunday and then I wouldn't eat again until 5am on Tuesday morning. And I always had these huge scarves because I was always, always cold. I was so thin that I could touch my fingers together around my waist. I mean, I was anorexic.

[Narrator/Commentator]

Many of these women in nxivm had body issues, and I've often wondered if that may have been part of why nxivm appealed to them in the first place.

[Alison Mack]

In the nxivm community, there was a hyper fixation on weight. Everybody was trying to be skinny, which is so ironic because Keith is fat, because he believed that it was better for your health and better for your energy work and better for everything if you were very, very, very thin.

[Narrator/Commentator]

In nxivm, being dangerously thin was not seen as an illness. It was a virtue. Perhaps it made these women, many of whom had money and pedigrees, feel like disordered eating was okay or even good. If you had anorexia or bulimia in the past on the outside, and your family members or friends were on your case about getting healthy, it was satisfying to know they were wrong all along. Calorie restriction was now praised as discipline, as self control. Or maybe it was a chicken and egg situation where Keith instilled ideas that resulted in these destructive behaviors. Whichever way it went, there's no doubt that Keith benefited from having Allison on a 500 calorie a day diet for three years, for having all these women underfed, underslept and physically Exhausted.

[Narrator/Reporter (Natalie Robomed)]

And this was all only part of Keith's plan. The most insidious stuff to me were the mind games.

[Alison Mack]

Part of the commitment was that like you had to love your master beyond everything, in the face of everything. And part of how you did that was like every morning you, you know, meditated on the goodness of your master.

[Narrator/Reporter (Natalie Robomed)]

I can just imagine Alison waking up at 5am Having to sit down, maybe on a plush pillow, maybe cross legged and shut her eyes, focus on her breathing and meditate on the goodness of Keith. With every breath she would inhale, thinking about all the ways Keith was pure, the embodiment of love. An exhale, release any negative feelings she.

[Narrator/Commentator]

Might have towards Keith.

[Narrator/Reporter (Natalie Robomed)]

When I tried to meditate the night Allison told me this, Keith's face kept popping into my head. Like Keith had found a way to.

[Narrator/Commentator]

Slip a piece of stained paper under.

[Narrator/Reporter (Natalie Robomed)]

The door of my brain. And that paper just steeps and stains and starts to wrap around every crevice of your mind, covering it with him. Like when the paper wins in a game of rock, paper, scissors. Every single thing Alison and the other first line masters did was framed as an act of care or service or denial.

[Narrator/Commentator]

All for Keith.

[Alison Mack]

What could you do that day that was an act of care for your masters? So how could you make their life easier? How could you make their world better? Like go grocery shopping for him or pick up his favorite chocolates and bring them to volleyball or help somebody. Helping each other get through their issues so that it was easier for Keith was like a way, like an act of care, you know, basically just doing whatever you could to make his life better. The denial was like self denial. So it was like, I'm gonna give up something that I love in honor of my master. So it was like, I won't eat refined sugar in honor of. So anytime there was any dessert or anything sweet around, I was not participating.

[Narrator/Commentator]

Their commitment to Keith took on another physical manifestation. A perverse wedding ring of sorts.

[Alison Mack]

We all had to wear a piece of permanent jewelry somewhere. I wore a belly chain because I could keep it on when I was acting and I was so thin and it was a way for me to maintain my weight.

[Narrator/Commentator]

The idea was if Alison, quote, unquote, ate too much, the belly chain would start to dig into her stomach. But Alison had a desire to be the best, to be the most committed to her master, to be really hardcore. So she took the belly chain a step further. As a form of punishment, she began wearing a type of solis, a restrictive undergarment designed to remind the Wearer of their devotion to God, or in this case, to Keith.

[Alison Mack]

So it comes back. It's like the days of mortification from, like, nuns and monks. You know how they used to wear, like, burlap sacks because it was uncomfortable and itchy, like a way of physical mortification. So a solis was like another form of that where you. It's like a strap, and the inside of the strap is sewn. They're like giant staples like this. Like pieces of metal that go like this with little spikies on the end. And they're sewn on the inside of the strap. And then you wrap that around your body, so it's kind of poking you, like stabbing you, you know, all day. And so I used to wear that around my waist, like, under my clothes, if I overate as, like, a punishment.

[Narrator/Reporter (Natalie Robomed)]

At this point, Keith was not just Alison's coach or business partner. He was her sexual partner, her guru, her God. And so when he wanted Alison and the other first dos members dedication made even more permanent, it seemed almost logical. So they would be the first women, but not the last, to submit to being branded for nxivm.

[Narrator/Commentator]

One day, Alison was in Albany when.

[Narrator/Reporter (Natalie Robomed)]

She got a call.

[Alison Mack]

It was lunchtime, and they were like, the guy's here. We've all been done. He's waiting. And so I was like, okay.

[Narrator/Commentator]

So Alison gets in her car on her lunch break and drives to one.

[Narrator/Reporter (Natalie Robomed)]

Of the doss slaves house.

[Narrator/Commentator]

She walks inside.

[Alison Mack]

She had, like, this day room area, and there was, like, a couch, and I, like, laid on the couch, and everybody was sucking on lollipops.

[Narrator/Reporter (Natalie Robomed)]

Lollipops. A burst of sugar to make sure no one fainted. Most of the other first line slaves are there, including Nikki Klein, the Canadian actress. Some of the women are watching TV in the other room. Alison lies down on the couch. She's wearing a pair of baggy pants. A body modification artist, a man she can only identify as a tattoo artist from Arizona, sits down beside her.

[Alison Mack]

I think Nikki was talking to him, but we're just this part of a. We're part of a, you know, a sorority, I think is what we said. And we want to do this as part of our sorority initiation thing. I pulled my pants down to show my hip, which is where it was. And then he branded me. And I, like, put the. He put the tape over it and gave me a lollipop. And I buttoned up my pants and went back and taught the rest of the intensive.

[Narrator/Reporter (Natalie Robomed)]

Alison carries on like normal, but her body is in shock. She's just been branded with a cauterizing pen without any sort of pain medication or numbing cream.

[Alison Mack]

My body was, like, shaking in shock. You know, like, obviously my body was still trembling, but I was so good at, like, cutting that off and just focusing on what I was doing. And I'm just not going to feel this right now. I'm just going to dissociate completely and be somewhere different. I don't know when or where I developed that survival mechanism, but when other women would say, like, that's really painful or whatever, I was like, what do you mean? Like, it's fine. It's just what you did. It was just like another day. And so the callousness by which I handled that and handled myself in, that is the same callousness that I had with the other girls.

[Narrator/Commentator]

And Allison is being manipulated by Keith, too, in a callous way. Alison has never talked to anyone about this publicly, but for about a year, from 2015 to 2016, Keith was having sex with Alison every day.

[Alison Mack]

In the middle of the night, in the middle of the day, you'd have a meeting. Didn't matter. He'd come, interrupt the meeting. You'd do.

[Narrator/Commentator]

Keith framed the sexual coercion as energy work, part of her healing. Remember, Allison told Keith that she struggled.

[Narrator/Reporter (Natalie Robomed)]

With her sexuality, that there were things.

[Narrator/Commentator]

That happened when she was a kid that weren't okay. But through the brainwashing of nxivm, this sick piece of paper folded around Allison's mind like a glove. Keith programmed Allison and the other women to ignore their gut. Now, any reluctance Allison felt to having sex with Keith was positioned as her fault to hit this point home. After each time they had sex, Keith would debrief with Allison at length.

[Alison Mack]

An orgasm, or, like any type of physical reaction that your body is having when you're having an intimate experience with somebody, it's not always an orgasm, but it's just, like, different, you know, physical experiences, right? And so he would. He would take ownership and responsibility for what was happening in my body and what was happening for me emotionally, so that it all came back to him being the source of these experiences that I was having, right? And then it was like, no other man will be able to do this for you.

[Narrator/Reporter (Natalie Robomed)]

And now Alison must provide Keith with more women, not just India, so he can heal them, too.

[Alison Mack]

In early 1988, federal agents raced to track down the gang they suspect of importing millions of dollars worth of heroin into New York from Asia. Had 30 agents ready to go with shotguns and rifles. And you Name it. Five, six white people pushed me in the car. I'm going, what the hell? Basically, your stay at home moms were.

[Narrator/Reporter (Natalie Robomed)]

Picking up these large amounts of heroin.

[Alison Mack]

Listen to the Chinatown sting wherever you get your podcasts.

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[Narrator/Reporter (Natalie Robomed)]

So Keith viewed Alison as a sort of project. She was not high up in the organization, but she was a rising star.

[Narrator/Commentator]

A pet of his.

[Narrator/Reporter (Natalie Robomed)]

And her commitment to Keith and the lengths she was willing to go for him set her apart. There's no getting around the fact that within Doss, Alison was one of the most extreme members and one of the most, if not the most extreme, master. She became a very accomplished recruiter, racking up several slaves, starting with India Oxenberg. And she was a very demanding taskmaster. It's something she's still slightly defensive about.

[Alison Mack]

Nothing that I did with my slaves wasn't something that I had already done with our group.

[Narrator/Commentator]

But by all accounts, Alison meted out punishments to her slaves with force.

[Alison Mack]

Most of the time, it was like, okay, one minute cold shower for everybody in the group, including me. And so I would take my standard one minute cold shower, and then I would add another minute standing in the cold for, like, a certain amount of time. An hour? Yeah, something like that. In the middle of the night. I mean, planks. So holding a plank for a period of time, for like a minute or.

[Narrator/Commentator]

Two minutes, she believes she's in charge of a badass group of empowered women. And Allison, who's competitive, who wants so.

[Narrator/Reporter (Natalie Robomed)]

Deeply to be liked, to do a.

[Narrator/Commentator]

Good job and obey her master, sees these women as a way for her to succeed. The harder she pushes her slaves, the better she sees herself reflected in Keith. Her God's eyes. There are no boundaries she won't nudge past to get there, including sexual ones.

[Alison Mack]

My experience of his perversion was him teaching me how to be okay with my sexual experience.

[Narrator/Commentator]

As part of that, Allison ended up having threesomes with both Keith and Danny.

[Alison Mack]

I got involved with her and him a few times, and that was always like, what the fuck am I doing? This feels so weird. But again, in my head, I'm like, it's just because you're so limited in your ability to love, you know, and, like, sex is just an extension of love. And, like, why are you so limited that you can only feel love for a person in this one small way? Like, push yourself. Love harder, love more. You know, all the while, it's like this fucked up sexual fantasy that I'm just like. Like, you know.

[Narrator/Reporter (Natalie Robomed)]

In a twisted way, Alison had come to believe the sexual exploitation of NXIVM was a form of empowerment. Not everyone took part in the sexual side of things, and some did more than others.

[Alison Mack]

Others.

[Narrator/Reporter (Natalie Robomed)]

In Nikki's slave line, there was a lot of reported sexual activity. In Lauren Salzman's slave line, there was none. She would not have any of her slaves go see Keith. But Allison did, which is where the assignment comes in. Alison gives the assignment to several of her slaves, and one of those women has an experience that should have set off even more alarm bells than any of the others. Here's what happened. Alison gave a slave of hers, a woman identified only as Nicole, the assignment to do whatever Keith says. So Keith summoned Nicole in the middle of the night. He blindfolded her, took her to another location and told her to get on a table nude. And someone else started performing oral sex on her. After it was over, Alison says Nicole came back to Alison's house.

[Alison Mack]

She came back and had, like, you know, indentations on her face from the mask. And I was like, are you okay? And she was like, yeah. And I was like, what happened? And she told me, and I was like, fuck, you're really brave. That was all I could say. I was like, I don't think I would have had the guts to do that. Like, you're really brave. She was like, yeah, that was really crazy.

[Narrator/Reporter (Natalie Robomed)]

Alison says on the inside she was shocked.

[Alison Mack]

Like, blew my mind. But how naive for me to be surprised at that, given the nature of how he. The disgusting text messages that he would send to me and the ways that he wanted all of us to take pictures of our bodies, close up pictures of our bodies to send to him. Like, what was I. What did I think he was doing?

[Narrator/Commentator]

It's really hard to understand how Allison could have possibly thought that Keith was just taking naked pictures of her slaves, that nothing sexual was happening.

[Narrator/Reporter (Natalie Robomed)]

Just, you know, it's very, like, naive in some ways to, like, think that.

[Alison Mack]

It was incredibly naive. Incredibly naive. But it also just shows you what I thought of. I trusted that Keith would not do anything.

[Narrator/Commentator]

Alison did not register that what had happened to Nicole was sexual assault, because she also didn't register that what was happening to her was anything other than consensual. Did you. Did you think you were consenting?

[Alison Mack]

Totally, totally, 100%. And one of the first things, and I mean, that was a big thing for Keith in teaching, in training us and grooming us through dos is like, this is the anti victim mentality. None of you are victims. All of you are here because you want to be here. All of you are here because you're committing to your growth. You are not victims in this.

[Narrator/Commentator]

But sex was not the only currency in nxivm. If you talk to anyone who knows anything about intimate partner violence or cults or any sort of controlling relationship, they'll tell you that the perpetrator seeks to control every aspect they can, including finances. So at this point, Alison has been in NXIVM for nearly a decade. She's been paying for course after course.

[Alison Mack]

I mean, I was blowing through 60, $100,000 on intensives and trainings, and then every EM is between $250 and $300, and I was getting an EM like once a week at least.

[Narrator/Commentator]

EMs are the exploration of meaning, the name for the Scientology esque sessions we talked about in episode one. It's a way of sort of going clear in this cult.

[Alison Mack]

I was like, blowing my money out of my bank account for Nexium.

[Narrator/Commentator]

Allison has been spending ridiculously on nxivm. She's been working on NXIVM pretty much full time since Smallville ended, developing curriculum and leading courses. But she hasn't really gotten paid in any meaningful way. Her money is drying up. Alison estimates she gave NXIVM hundreds of thousands of dollars. But honestly, looking at the numbers, I wouldn't be surprised if it was more like millions. She handed over basically everything she'd ever made to nxivm and to Keith. And she wasn't the only one, not by any means. In fact, two women in particular, Claire and Sarah Bronfman, have been bankrolling Keith for years. They are the daughters of billionaire Edgar Bronfman and heirs to Seagram's fortune. Claire and Sarah were some of Keith's earliest backers and his most ardent supporters. It was Claire's jet that Allison flew back on to meet Keith from Vancouver for the first time. And since the early 2000s, estimates suggest the Bronfmans have poured about $100 million into Nexivm.

[Narrator/Reporter (Natalie Robomed)]

A lot of that has gone into paying for legal fees against various anti nexium detractors. And Keith spent a reported $66 million playing the commodities Market with it too. Yes, you heard that right. And there were immigration fees to be.

[Narrator/Commentator]

Paid as well, because, as we've already mentioned, NXIVM had large Mexican and Canadian contingents. Keith wanted several of these foreign members to live in Albany. One of them was Nikki Klein, who we mentioned last episode.

[Alison Mack]

Nikki was another one who didn't really like me very much, and I was too much for her. Like, she was, like. Didn't like how performative I was and didn't like how outgoing I was and loud I was, and sort of boisterous and gregarious and stuff.

[Narrator/Commentator]

Nikki is another of the frontline DOS slaves, one of those first eight. Now Allison and her are spending a lot of time together in dos. Keith is actually having sex with both of them.

[Alison Mack]

We were like sister wives, essentially. You know, that's ultimately, like, what it ended up being. Even if that's not what I initially thought it was, that was ultimately what it ended up being.

[Narrator/Commentator]

Alison desperately wanted Nikki's approval.

[Alison Mack]

It was like, how can I get her to like me? And I was the only American citizen in the group.

[Narrator/Commentator]

So in 2017, Alison agrees to marry Nikki so she can stay in the country.

[Alison Mack]

Everybody else was Mexican, except for Nikki, who was Canadian. And so I was like, fuck, I'll marry you. I already know I'm not gonna marry somebody else. What's the difference? Like, we're basically married anyway, so why not her mom? And her and I went to, like, a justice of the peace courthouse in LA somewhere, I think, and her mom was there to witness it.

[Narrator/Commentator]

Allison doesn't tell her mom until the papers have been signed.

[Alison Mack]

My mom was just like, what is happening with my daughter?

[Mindy Mack (Alison's Mom)]

You know, I was horrified. I was hurt that she didn't trust me.

[Narrator/Commentator]

Mindy Mack, Alison's mom again.

[Mindy Mack (Alison's Mom)]

Well, I think it's because she knew that I would say, what the hell are you doing? Cause it was Keith's idea, of course. So I was. You know, there was some stuff going on that was hurtful to me, that was extremely out of character for Alison.

[Alison Mack]

I was like, it's fine, Mom. Stop asking questions.

[Narrator/Reporter (Natalie Robomed)]

And to Allison, at the time, it did seem fine, because weirder things were happening than getting married to a woman she wasn't in love with for a green card. This was a topsy turvy world where she's barely eating, sleeping a handful of hours a night, and having coerced sex with Keith every day.

[Narrator/Commentator]

And the thing is, all of this was secret. Keith was spending pretty much every hour of his day tomcatting around between These different women, triangulating them, having sex with them, manipulating them. Then he would pontificate in these wide ranging, absurd speeches that were taped for NXIVM members to pore over. People like Nancy Salzman, his prefect, the second in command, really still believed in what he was doing, that Keith was a good man doing good in the world. Information about what is really going on is siloed. Most women in DOS aren't doing sexual stuff with Keith, and they don't know that he's doing anything sexual with the others. Even Allison only knew bits and pieces. But little by little, she starts to hear about weird things happening with other women too. Like paddling each other, that is, hitting each other with a thick wooden instrument. He's making them record videos of themselves doing this and send them to him.

[Narrator/Reporter (Natalie Robomed)]

And while this is going on, more and more women are being branded. And these brandings are being filmed too. In fact, they've been codified into rituals, not the slapdash business Alison got on her lunch break. These new recruits had to request the procedure with specific language, saying, master, will.

[Alison Mack]

You please brand me?

[Narrator/Reporter (Natalie Robomed)]

Doss has grown to about 150 women, with the slaves recruiting their own slaves, a repeating cycle of collateral and readiness drills and branding. Of those women, Allison estimates that between 20 to 30 were branded. That is a horrifying number. But NXIVM has thousands of members, and most people have no idea that DOS even exists, let alone that people are getting branded, even those really high up in the organization. Nancy Salzman, Prefect is in the dark. And so is Claire Bronfman, NXIVM's main financier. But it's all beginning to bubble up.

[Narrator/Commentator]

Especially when some of these DOS members realize that the videos of brandings are going to Keith. They start to freak out. They thought this was women's empowerment. Only the first eight slaves seem to know that Keith is involved. One of the women whose branding is filmed is Sarah Edmondson. She's the founder of NXIVM's Vancouver Centre and is actually one of Lauren Salzman's slaves. She got branded in a ceremony at Alison Mack's house over the winter. Afterwards, her husband sees her brand and he flips out. He shows up in Albany at a restaurant called Apropos. Apropos is a middling Italian joint frequented by the NXIVM set. It's off the highway in a single story building with a facade of painted pillars outside and tacky, cheap construction inside. In this restaurant in the spring of 2017, Sarah's husband tells Everyone that Sarah has been branded. He makes a stink, causes a huge scene, and gets the word out about Doss.

[Narrator/Reporter (Natalie Robomed)]

And it works. Other nxivm members do freak out. They start to pack up and leave Albany. Sarah begins making calls to People's family members, warning them about the brand and the sex stuff and that their loved ones might be involved in a cult. Claire Bronfman tries to stop her with a private investigator and legal maneuverings, but Sarah continues to warn people.

[Narrator/Commentator]

Mindy Mac remembers getting one such call from Sarah.

[Mindy Mack (Alison's Mom)]

Sarah Edmondson called me, and she said, I'm a mother now, and I know. I understand the level of care and concern that you have as a mother. And I observe you and your care and concern of Allison. And I just want you to know that bad stuff's going down at Nexian. I want you to know that that's happening and that Allison needs to get out. I'm like, oh, my God, what's happening? And so I. I went to Allison and I said, sarah Edmondson called me and told me that bad stuff was going on, and that concerns me. And she said, ma. And she just talked me off the ledge. She told me everything that Keith told her about why Sarah left. Sarah left because she wasn't getting what she thought she was going to get. Don't worry about it. These are people that are just disgruntled.

[Narrator/Commentator]

This was Keith and NXIVM's party line, that all this bad stuff, people were saying they were just making up because they were unhappy with their own lives. Victim mentality. Alison believed it wholeheartedly.

[Alison Mack]

It was like, everything's fine. It's gonna be fine.

[Narrator/Commentator]

But it's not going to be fine. Because many members are leaving. Disavowing nxivm, hurt and angry because Sarah and the others are giving interviews to the New York Times. And when they run that story, it gets a lot of attention. And some people, including India's mom, Katherine Oxenberg, are starting to talk to law enforcement. And then the federal government decides to take up the case for sex trafficking and other issues. Still, Alison thinks nothing is wrong.

[Alison Mack]

I remember when, like, the FBI is getting involved and things like that, like, those kinds of conversations were coming up. I was just like, it's fine. They're gonna understand, you know, that we're not doing anything. And it's, like, completely disconnected from reality in my delusional belief that everything is fine.

[Narrator/Commentator]

But Keith. Keith realizes they need to mount a public defense, and Allison will play a key role.

[Alison Mack]

I thought it would be cool to have something more meaningful and something that took more guts. But why Keith's initials then, if he's not allowed to initials?

[Narrator/Reporter (Natalie Robomed)]

The bottom line is it's not Allison's initials. It's not my initials.

[Alison Mack]

They just basically stormed the property. They're wearing masks, bulletproof vests, machine guns. And I go on this high alert, like I'm going to protect Keith. And I looked down, you know, and I thought, this is too much. I think I can just jump.

[Narrator/Reporter (Natalie Robomed)]

Tune in next week for an all new episode of Alison after nxivm, or you can listen ahead to the full series now by subscribing to CBC True Crime Premium on Apple Podcasts or by subscribing to the CBC True crime channel on YouTube links in the show description you've been listening to Uncover Alison After NXIVM from CBC and Campside Media. It's hosted by me, Natalie Robomed. Our executive producers are myself and Vanessa Gregoriadis at Campside and Stephen Belber. Our senior producer is Lily Houston Smith and our Associate Professor Producer is Emma Siminoff. Sound Design mix and Engineering by Mark McAdam and Ewin Lai Trimuin. Thank you to Colin Campbell at cbc, Our story editor is Derek John and our senior producer is Kate Evans. Our coordinating producer is Emily Kinnell. Our executive producers are Cecil Fernandez and Chris Oak. Tonya Springer is the Senior manager. Arif Nurani is the director. If you enjoyed Allison After Nexium, please rate and review the show wherever you get your podcasts.

[Alison Mack]

Thanks for listening.

[Narrator/Reporter (Natalie Robomed)]

For more CBC Podcasts, go to CBC CA Podcasts.