S35 E4: Helter Skelter | Allison after NXIVM

Summary

---

Uncover: Allison after NXIVM — S35 E4: Helter Skelter

Brief Overview

This episode of Allison after NXIVM delves into the unraveling of NXIVM as law enforcement closes in on Keith Raniere and his inner circle, including Allison Mack and Lauren Salzman. Hosted by Natalie Robomed and featuring firsthand accounts from Lauren, Allison, and journalist Vanessa Grigoriadis, the episode explores denial, loyalty, and self-delusion in the cult’s leadership as the empire collapses. The narrative moves from nervy interviews in New York, through secretive Mexican hideaways, to the shocking arrest of Raniere, culminating in Allison’s isolation and crisis.

---

Key Discussion Points and Insights

1. Lauren Salzman’s Early Indoctrination and NXIVM’s Parental Manipulation

[01:02–05:45]

• Lauren Salzman, daughter of Nancy Salzman (NXIVM’s second-in-command), recalls being recruited by her mother into NXIVM during college.
  • Lauren describes her mother’s emotional distance during a "mother-to-friend" vacation, consumed by Keith Raniere’s manipulative theories:

    “She spent the entire vacation in the hotel room reading Atlas Shrugged and like on the phone with Keith, trying to like deprogram her children from being parasitic...” (Lauren Salzman, 01:42)

• Keith’s “parasite strategies” theory sought to estrange children from parents and foster dependence on Keith:

  • "His solution… was to ultimately come in and step in as the one who was going to solve that. Problem and then get everybody completely dependent on him and not self reliant enough to ever leave." (Lauren Salzman, 02:10)

• Lauren details her body’s visceral discomfort around Keith, foreshadowing the harm he would cause.

2. Keith Raniere’s Psychological Manipulation and Playing Women Off Each Other

[05:00–06:33]

• Keith manipulates Lauren and other women emotionally, notably by flaunting his attention toward younger, more famous members like Allison Mack.

  • “You’re there feeling as small as small can be... while he’s flirting with somebody younger, prettier, more famous, more popular... You start to realize you aged out before you were even 30.” (Lauren Salzman, 05:00)

• Female friendships, like that between Lauren and Allison, were discouraged or weaponized to enhance dependency on Keith.

3. Allison Mack’s State of Mind and Initial Interview with Journalist Vanessa Grigoriadis

[08:24–15:48]

• Vanessa describes a tense, intimate interview with Allison in Brooklyn, noting Allison’s nervousness and defensive rationalizations.

  • “She was incredibly friendly, and I was nervous. She was nervous. So we’re sort of laughing and feigning intimacy to cover up how weird the situation was.” (Vanessa Grigoriadis, 10:15)

• Allison passionately defends DOS and even the branding ritual, insisting it was an empowering, feminist practice:

  • “We wanted to stand on our own.” (Allison, 10:53)

  • She likens DOS to fraternities and male brotherhoods:

    “Men have a thing about brotherhood... what would happen if women were ballsy enough to brand themselves in the name of honor and commitment?” (Allison, 12:20)

• Allison lies about the meaning of the brand, denying it contains Keith’s initials:

  • “It was not deliberately intended to look like... Keith’s initials.” (Allison, 14:07)

4. Cover-ups, Internal Panic, and Shifting Blame

• After the interview, Allison boasts to DOS members that she took credit for the branding. She recorded the journalist without her knowledge, typical of NXIVM paranoia.

  • “I think I did a good job... I’m going to take the heat for it, like, it’s fine, you guys, don’t worry about it.” (Allison, 16:02–16:28)

5. Vanessa’s Interviews with Claire Bronfman and Keith Raniere in Mexico

[17:50–28:32]

• Vanessa meets Claire Bronfman—NXIVM’s primary financier—who maintains the fiction that NXIVM is about executive success, even as indictments loom.

  • “Her attitude… was… that they were a program about executive success coaching and that [she] devoted her life to proselytizing [Keith’s] message… there was nothing to see here.” (Vanessa Grigoriadis, 20:00)

• Keith finally emerges: unimpressive, insipid, eluding meaningful answers, and psychoanalyzing Vanessa.

  • “He was just a middle aged guy... just your average car salesman.” (Vanessa Grigoriadis, 21:50)

  • "I just think I work harder than others at it." (Keith Raniere, 22:47)

• Keith denies involvement in the branding and spins allegations as “sexist”:

  • “A group of women getting a brand should get the same attention as a group of men branding each other… The more we say… women are weak… they can’t do this sort of thing, this is mutilation.” (Keith Raniere, 25:54)

6. The Recommitment Ceremony: Escalating Delusion and Sexual Demands

[29:13–34:44]

• Lauren is summoned to Mexico for a “recommitment ceremony”—revealed to be a planned orgy to reinforce loyalty to Keith, at his behest.

  • “Keith wants to know why we’ve stopped… sending [him] naked pictures and stopped DOS.” (Lauren Salzman, 29:22)

  • Lauren’s mounting disillusion:

    “I really started to feel like he lost the plot. Like he was getting really crazy in a lot of areas.” (Lauren Salzman, 29:53)

  • Lauren confronts Keith. He gaslights her and refuses direct responsibility.

7. The Raid: Keith’s Arrest and the End of the Empire

[34:44–38:39]

• Lauren recounts the surreal moment Mexican police storm the villa. She hides Keith in a closet and desperately demands a warrant.

  • “All I can think of is just protect Keith.” (Lauren Salzman, 35:51)

• Keith remains hidden; Lauren is left facedown at gunpoint:

  • “They put me on the floor, face down... I thought they were going to start physically assaulting me. ...I was on the floor with guns.” (Lauren Salzman, 36:43)

• When found, Keith’s suitcase contains only underwear and Chiclets—candy:

  • “So I open this fucking thing up that they think are drugs and arms, and it’s like underwear and candy.” (Lauren Salzman, 38:30)

8. Aftermath: Allison in Isolation, Contemplating Suicide

[39:26–43:07]

• Post-arrest, Allison is holed up in Guadalajara, unable to return home, broke and frightened, with her name appearing in press allegations and indictments.

  • “It was like I was walking above reality... waiting for this to blow over. And I was by myself. And that was fucking bizarre.” (Allison, 41:34)

• She faces crippling anxiety and contemplates suicide:

  • “I called it my ivory tower. And I looked down... I thought, this is too much. I think I can just jump and then everything will be better. And then I was like, but then I won’t know what happens.” (Allison, 42:18)

• Lauren closes with a chilling verdict:

  • “I chose Keith, Keith chose Keith. And then Keith continued to choose Keith again and again and again.” (Lauren Salzman, 43:16)

---

Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• Lauren on Keith’s Harmful Influence:

  “His solution… was to ultimately come in and step in as the one who was going to solve that. Problem and then get everybody completely dependent on him and not self reliant enough to ever leave.” (02:10)

• Allison on DOS:

  “We wanted to stand on our own.” (10:53)
  “Men have a thing about brotherhood... what would happen if women were ballsy enough to brand themselves in the name of honor and commitment?” (12:20)
  “It was not deliberately intended to look like... Keith’s initials.” (14:07)

• Lauren on Aging Out:

  “You realize you aged out before you were even 30.” (05:00)

• Keith’s Rationalizations:

  “I don't know, a group of 10 or 15 women in a suburbia... getting together... if that were guys, it would make news... The fact that it's women and... it makes news is... reinforcing... negative stereotype of women.” (25:54)

• Lauren as the Villa is Raided:

  “All I can think of is just protect Keith.” (35:51)
  “So I open this fucking thing up that they think are drugs and arms, and it’s like underwear and candy.” (38:30)

• Allison on Suicidal Ideation:

  “I called it my ivory tower. And I looked down... I thought, this is too much. I think I can just jump and then everything will be better. And then I was like, but then I won’t know what happens.” (42:18)

• Lauren Salzman’s Summary:

  “I chose Keith, Keith chose Keith. And then Keith continued to choose Keith again and again and again.” (43:16)

---

Timestamps for Important Segments

• Lauren’s Indoctrination & Theories: 01:02–05:45
• Manipulation & Women’s Relationships: 05:00–06:33
• Allison’s Interview with Vanessa: 08:24–15:48
• Vanessa with Claire and Keith: 17:50–28:32
• The Recommitment Ceremony: 29:13–34:44
• Raid and Arrest of Keith: 34:44–38:39
• Allison’s Crisis in Isolation: 39:26–43:07

---

Tone and Themes

The episode combines raw, often unsettling honesty with moments of surreal dark comedy. The participants’ language remains emotionally charged, defensive, sometimes disarmingly naïve, and ultimately haunted by self-realization. Themes explored include the mechanics of psychological manipulation, shifting narratives under stress, enabling, and the consequences of cult loyalty.

---

For Listeners

This episode offers an immersive, behind-the-scenes look at how denial, dependency, and self-delusion operated among NXIVM’s elite—right up until the moment reality arrived through the door with drawn guns. The perspectives are frank, disturbing, and humane, capturing the gray zones of both complicity and victimhood.

Transcript

[Alison]

Are you tired of dating assholes?

[Narrator]

Do you want a Prince Charming?

[Lauren Salzman]

If so, we're filming a reality show.

[Alison]

Sign up here.

[Narrator]

12American women are flown over to the UK for a bachelor style reality dating show. There are so many questions about a.

[Lauren Salzman]

Show like this because it's so odd.

[Narrator]

These women have been told that they were going to be dating the world's most eligible bachelor, Prince Harry. What?

[Lauren Salzman]

Y' all playing with me, right?

[Narrator]

Split screen. Bachelor of Buckingham Palace. Available now everywhere you get your podcasts. This is a CBC podcast.

[Alison]

Campsite Media.

[Narrator]

Just a note before we begin. This episode contains a discussion of suicide. There's a woman who joined NXIVM in the early days. She's actually the daughter of the organization's second in command and this is the first time she's spoken about what happened to her.

[Lauren Salzman]

I joined NXIVM before nxivm was a thing. My mom met Keith Thanksgiving my senior year in college and basically was like fully indoctrinated and committed to him by spring break.

[Narrator]

This is Lauren Salzman, daughter of NXIVM prefect Nancy Salzman. She was high up in NXIVM leadership herself and spent 20 years in the organization. She may sound forthright and matter of fact, but make no mistake, what Lauren experienced and did in nxivm was deeply traumatic and it was a very big decision for her to speak to me. She remembers that spring break her senior year when her mom was deeply embedded with Keith already.

[Lauren Salzman]

She took us on this vacation to Florida and she called it the transition from mother to friend vacation. She spent the entire time, like the entire vacation in the hotel room reading Atlas Shrugged and like on the phone with Keith, trying to like deprogram her children from being parasitic and to have real self esteem.

[Narrator]

This was a theory of Keith's. According to Keith, children employed, quote, parasite strategies to get their mom to do things for them.

[Lauren Salzman]

They learn effort strategies and parasite strategies was how the theory went. And so a parasite strategy can start out as an effort strategy, right? Like baby cries, mommy comes, baby cries louder, mommy comes f faster. But then baby learns they can cry for a whole bunch of stuff and get you to do effort on their behalf so that they don't have to. And that's what they call a parasitic strategy versus an effort strategy which creates self reliance and builds self esteem. So what he was saying is that my mom was undermining our self reliance and our self esteem. And then his solution for that was to ultimately come in and step in as the one who was going to solve that. Problem and then get everybody completely dependent on him and not self reliant enough to ever leave.

[Narrator]

Of course, this idea flies in the face of attachment theory and doesn't actually build self reliance. It shuts down one's intuition and instead builds reliance on Keith. Meanwhile, Lauren's intuition was already screaming.

[Lauren Salzman]

When I first met Keith, every time I was around him, I would profusely start to sweat and stink and, like, I don't even know how to explain it. Like, my body had such a polarizing reaction to him that it took me a while to get over that.

[Narrator]

But she had to get over it because Keith and her mom were working together.

[Lauren Salzman]

So by the time I graduated, they were already coming up with a school. And when I came home from college, I was already in it.

[Narrator]

Lauren began taking classes and eventually teaching them too.

[Lauren Salzman]

I thought he was really smart, and when I started taking the curriculum, I really liked it. It made a lot of sense. And my life got a little bit more internally organized, I think, and things started to work better.

[Narrator]

Around April 2001, when Lauren was about 24, Keith asked Lauren to be in a relationship with him. At the same time he was running a company with her mother, who he also had a relationship with. But within about five years, Lauren says, Keith cooled on her. The romantic part of their relationship was over. Of course, Keith told Lauren that that was her fault, that she needed to work on herself before they could be together for real. If she did that, Keith promised he would have a child with her. So Lauren stuck around. Still, Lauren's a formidable presence. As time went on, she became a bigger and bigger force in the organization. In some ways, Nancy, who was getting older, was receding. Lauren felt like prefect to some of the younger members. And yet during this time, Lauren says Keith still found ways to needle her.

[Lauren Salzman]

I'm in a relationship with this person. We haven't had any intimacy or even interaction in a decade. And then I go and see him, and we're on a walk and he passes Allison and he like, makes a note to point out that maybe she doesn't have a bra on. She was wearing, like, you know, I don't know, free people onesie, like those cute little jumpsuits. And he's like, pushing it off her shoulder so, like, I can see there's nothing underneath. And I'm like, that's the kind of shit he does. So you're there feeling as small as small can be, you know, while he's flirting with somebody younger, prettier, more famous, more popular, more, you know, whatever. Then and you start to realize you aged out before you were even 30.

[Narrator]

This is something Keith would do, play women off each other. Remember Alison and Lauren met at Alison's very first intensive in Vancouver, when Allison flew back to Albany on Clare Bronfman's private plane.

[Lauren Salzman]

I think she taught me to knit and we talked the whole way. And I remember my mom saying, like, she hadn't seen me get along with somebody so well since I was really young. And that was one of the things that Keith brought up when he spoke to me afterwards, which is, I heard you guys got along really well and that that was unusual for you.

[Narrator]

Alison felt similarly.

[Alison]

I really liked Lauren.

[Narrator]

But space soon grew between the two. Remember, Allyson was being told by Keith that she was a shell of a person psychologically.

[Alison]

I was so ashamed by being inauthentic and self absorbed and stuff. And I thought that Lauren could see that. And so then I just got weird. I couldn't, like, be natural around Lauren. I, like, didn't know how to act, and I just became very hyper insecure around her.

[Narrator]

By the time Allyson had become Keith's star pupil and central to Dossier, Lauren had drifted a little from both of them. Lauren says she was recruited into DOS later than the other firstline members. But when she was eventually brought on board, her and Alison started spending more time together. And when NXIVM members began speaking out about the branding and leaving the group, Lauren and Allison remained loyal to NXIVM and to Keith, but they wouldn't be on the same side for long. From campside media and cbc, this is alison after nxivm from cbc's uncover, I'm natalie robomed. This is episode four, helter skelter. Keith and Clare Bronfman are starting to talk to lawyers because it's becoming clear that they could be in a lot of trouble. And so they decide to do something people in crisis often do, an almost shoot the moon type of strategy. They decide to open up to a reporter for the first time in nearly a decade and a half. The reporter they speak with, Vanessa Gregoriadis, is our executive producer on this show. She's first authorized to talk to Alison and given an address to go to in Brooklyn Heights.

[Vanessa Grigoriadis]

So it was a very cold day in New York City. Allison is actually living in an apartment building. Not quite a brownstone, but beautiful, right near the water and the Brooklyn Promenade. And I buzzed up to her apartment. It was an old building. I walked up the stairs and she was standing at the door.

[Narrator]

Vanessa's been granted unparalleled access in the hope that she might present a different angle, tell the other side, as it were. But she's still suspicious, to say the least.

[Vanessa Grigoriadis]

When we walked in, I heard a man's voice and was kind of confused by what that was. And she said, oh, I'm just playing a podcast. I have to turn it off, and went to her computer. And since I knew that NXIVM members tended to listen to Keith's recordings, I wondered, was that actually Keith speaking, that man's voice?

[Narrator]

The apartment is sparsely furnished because Alison is still in the process of moving in.

[Vanessa Grigoriadis]

It was a studio apartment, so just like one big room with really high ceilings and. And a bunch of the art was off the walls and just sort of resting on the walls on the floor.

[Narrator]

Vanessa settles down onto a couch with Allison.

[Vanessa Grigoriadis]

She looked beautiful, because she is beautiful. She had on sort of a strange outfit, extremely loose. At that time, she and Lauren wore these very loose clothes. She was very skinny. Painfully too skinny.

[Narrator]

They make small talk about Alison's running route, their subway preferences, and the incense Alison is burning.

[Vanessa Grigoriadis]

Something smells so good in here. What are you.

[Alison]

I just burned Palo Santo.

[Vanessa Grigoriadis]

She was incredibly friendly, and I was nervous. She was nervous. So we're sort of laughing and talking and feigning intimacy to cover up how weird the situation was.

[Narrator]

As the Palo Santo wafts through the studio apartment, the Vanessa starts asking Allison about the branding, about the secret sorority, about all the rumors that are beginning to bubble up about NXIVM and DOSS in particular. And Allison tells her, no, she's got it all wrong. Her voice gets harder and harder as she explains that DOS is actually just a cool women's feminist group.

[Alison]

There are so many things that we depend on men for and so many ways that we default to men to feel strong, to feel affirmed, and to feel solid and to feel whatever. We didn't want any of that bullshit. We wanted to stand on our own.

[Vanessa Grigoriadis]

She was telling me that the sorority, which was the phrase that they were using to talk about dos, to try to give it something of a more normal name, I think was good, and that it was all about achievement and setting rules for yourself and goals and boundaries, and it was a way of women regaining power in the world.

[Narrator]

Alison defends the master slave dynamic, which has been getting a lot of attention as a spiritual practice of devotion.

[Alison]

The concept of the slave, which has gotten so spun out, is that we can either be enslaved to our fears and our attachments, or we can be enslaved to our higher Selves and the things that we love.

[Narrator]

Okay?

[Alison]

The idea was that you are a slave to your master. Your master is your highest ideology, essentially. And you wear a piece of jewelry to symbolize it.

[Narrator]

Alison lifts up her shirt to show Vanessa her gold belly chain, which she says she got on Etsy. The message is, this is all normal and above board. It's just a bunch of women doing their version of a male brotherhood.

[Alison]

I mean, like the Masons and the fucking Skull and Bones and the Omega Society, like men, the Marines, Men have a thing about brotherhood, and they come together and they stick together. And a lot of what. I mean, the branding and all of that stuff was looking at those structures and those. That culture and just being like, what would happen if women did that? What would happen if women were ballsy enough to brand themselves in the name of honor and commitment? What would happen if women were ballsy enough to, you know, stand up for each other in the face of greatest adversity? What would that be like?

[Narrator]

Vanessa turns the line of questioning to the brand, which has apparently been burned right near each woman's hip bone.

[Vanessa Grigoriadis]

Nobody knew what this bizarre sort of hieroglyph was that had been branded on these women's bodies. So I asked her, what is the nature of this brand? I asked her, did Keith know about the sorority? I asked her, did Keith know about the branding? I asked her all these questions, and she was just sort of saying no.

[Alison]

I thought it would be cool to have something more meaningful and something that took more guts.

[Vanessa Grigoriadis]

But why Keith's initials then, if he's.

[Alison]

Not involved in the group?

[Vanessa Grigoriadis]

Oh, it's just like a bar.

[Alison]

Alpha Mule, which is another name for our sorority. So the bar is the line straight across, which is the infinity symbol. This means infinity. Alpha, which is the A. Put the line right there. So that is Alpha is beginning.

[Vanessa Grigoriadis]

Right?

[Alison]

Like first new birth, and then Mu is an M. That comes through there. Yeah. And that is.

[Vanessa Grigoriadis]

Oh, I see. But why does it look like a.

[Lauren Salzman]

KR with an AM?

[Alison]

Because. And with.

[Vanessa Grigoriadis]

I know.

[Alison]

With a fucking AM. No, it's not. It can look like anything you want it to look like. It was not deliberately intended to look like.

[Vanessa Grigoriadis]

Got it.

[Alison]

Keith's initials.

[Narrator]

Allison lies. She says the brand is not only not her initials, which it isn't, but also not Keith's initials, which it definitely is. She says Keith has nothing to do with the group, even though the group was, as we now know, Keith's idea. Not only that, Alison actually takes credit for the brand.

[Alison]

We wanted to do something that was Physical, something that would be painful, that would signify our commitment to each other. And the idea was tattoos. And I was like, that's lame. Like, that's pussy. Like, I don't want to do that. I was like, I. You know, I think we should do something more intense. We should do something that's more meaningful, that's more symbolic. And so I came up with branding. And at first everybody was like, you're crazy. And I was like, no, but think about it. Like, it's the four elements. Fire burns it into your body. This is the horizon. This is a mountain. This is water. The lines themselves are the seven chakras. And it's also far Alpha Mu. I was like, it's so symbolic. All in that one little thing. And the whole process of doing it is so symbolic. It's like burning it into your skin. The fire of burning something into your body. Like, that's amazing.

[Narrator]

After her interview with Vanessa, Allison calls two other women in DOS and plays them the recording of the conversation. Because she recorded Vanessa, a common practice of NXIVM members who recorded everything obsessively.

[Alison]

And I remember being like, I think I did a good job. And da, da, da, da.

[Narrator]

She tells them she took credit for the brand, that it was her idea.

[Alison]

And then they were like, you did what?

[Vanessa Grigoriadis]

You said what?

[Alison]

Oh, my God, Alison, I can't believe you did that. And I was like, well, I didn't know. I didn't know what she was going to ask me. I didn't know what I was supposed to say. I thought I was making it sound good and like. Like, I'm going to take the heat for it. Like, it's fine, you guys, don't worry about it.

[Narrator]

Alison thinks taking credit for the brand would make it sound better. It's something she's doing for Keith. She gave that interview to Vanessa. For Keith, too. The next thing Vanessa is supposed to do is go to Albany to interview Keith. She's planning to take a train, but at the last minute, NXIVM's publicist tells her that Keith is not in Albany anymore due to some vague problem with a NXIVM members visa. He is in Guadalajara, Mexico. If you've seen any of the big cult documentaries from the last few years or read about any of the famous cults from the 70s and 80s, you'll know there usually comes a moment when the group retreats, recedes from society further into its own isolation. Maybe they hunker down in a bunker or flee to an exotic location. And to me, that Seems to have been what was happening here. Remember, NXIVM has a lot of members in Mexico, and some of them are very powerful. The sons and daughters of the Mexican 1%, perhaps. Keith figures if they're under fire in the US maybe they'll be safe here. And Vanessa, she's chasing the story, so she flies to Mexico too.

[Vanessa Grigoriadis]

I flew into Guadalajara. It's very hilly, sort of cool looking, has an LA vibe.

[Narrator]

The thing is, at this point, Vanessa knows that NXIVM members are going to be indicted for some crimes, and she thinks that Keith knows that too. The United States District Court for the Eastern District of New York is likely debating as well if they're going to indict Alison and Lauren. Lauren was responsible for aiding Keith in keeping a young woman who'd expressed romantic feelings for someone other than him in a room she did not leave for two years. It is unclear whether Keith cares about charges for Allison and Lauren or only his own charges. We did not interview Keith for this podcast, so we are not able to speak to that. But it seems to Vanessa there is a reason he is in Mexico, and it might not only be about a visa.

[Vanessa Grigoriadis]

Pulled up at this pretty, nondescript white high rise near a park. I went into the lobby, which was one of those sort of marble, echoey lobbies. Relatively humble, not fancy.

[Claire Bronfman]

And.

[Vanessa Grigoriadis]

Claire was in the first floor apartment there.

[Narrator]

Claire Bronfman, one of the heirs to the Seagram's fortune. Claire is thin with blue eyes and shoulder length brown hair. Claire has bankrolled NXIVM for many years, sinking an estimated $100 million into it. She's a full devotee and hardly anyone except Vanessa has talked to her.

[Vanessa Grigoriadis]

Claire was also very, very skinny. She was wearing white jeans. She had a really soft voice to the point where you almost felt like she was whispering part of the time.

[Claire Bronfman]

We have so many strategies to not feel the things that are uncomfortable for us. And the whole basis of our program is to feel those things so you can work them through, right? And then they're not uncomfortable anymore.

[Narrator]

Clara tells Vanessa Keith is taking a nap. So she and Vanessa talk for a bit.

[Vanessa Grigoriadis]

Her attitude and what she wanted to communicate to me was that they were a program about executive success coaching and that she was a businesswoman, Keith was as well, and that she had devoted her life to proselytizing his message and that there was nothing to see here.

[Alison]

Is Keith really good at volleyball?

[Claire Bronfman]

Keith's really athletic. He's different than most people. I'll tell you a lot of People. And I know this because I'm an athlete. Like, well, I'm a former retired athlete. I should say correctly. You get lazy, you know, especially if it's the 10th game, you get lazy. I mean, I'm lazy. You know, Keith will try. Like he'll throw himself on the floor. Like he really tries to play full out when he plays. It's kind of how he does life.

[Narrator]

It's kind of how he does life. What Claire's saying is an echo of what Keith asked Allison the first time he met her. Oh, is that how you do life? As if everything can be judged by one's behavior on the volleyball court. I mean, Claire's a former professional show jumper. That's the sport with horses where you jump over brightly colored poles. And she's calling herself lazy, even though Keith's the one taking a nap in the middle of the day right now. Keith, it seems, used to sleep very little at night and then nap in small increments during the day. It's all just more evidence of how delusional everyone is right now. I mean, Keith and nxivm are in serious trouble. And yet no one Vanessa's spoken to, not Claire nor Allison, seems to understand that. Now, standing in this apartment, Vanessa wonders, will Keith?

[Vanessa Grigoriadis]

And then he just appeared. He sprang out from the bedroom. And it's hard to explain how underwhelming it was to meet him after so much buildup. He was just a middle aged guy with a sort of feathered haircut and he's wearing this business casual outfit. I would describe it as like blue polo shirt, gray slacks. Just your average car salesman. Claire and Keith and I sat down at a dining room table. You know, they were there to answer.

[Narrator]

These questions, but right away Keith starts spewing gobbledygook.

[Keith Raniere]

I'm the person who, if I'm asked a real I don't want to hear the answer. And I work and work and work and work.

[Narrator]

You can hear Vanessa mhmming throughout this, trying to encourage Keith to keep talking, but not really sounding as if she's believing it.

[Keith Raniere]

So I built a real capacity to consider things in depth. I can concentrate on an issue for hours and go forward on it for hours because I've built that capacity. So what makes me different is I just think I work harder than others at it. I may not be as good or as talented as an end result, but I do work hard.

[Narrator]

He starts psychoanalyzing Vanessa and what he calls her leadership position.

[Keith Raniere]

I was contemplating your leadership position. I believe you are A leader. I think that the advantages of human having empathy is our hearts jump a little when we see that, and that's leadership. It's how you conduct yourself in the world as a type of leadership. And then there's the more direct power leadership. Like you have a certain power over your readers, some more so, some less so, not complete. But you lead that way and you lead your children. They're independent and all of us do. So I was thinking about the distinctions between, like, leadership through power, leadership through inspiration, and I had some contemplations related to that.

[Narrator]

This is how Keith talks, weaving disconnected rhetorical paths that hint at grandeur and something deeper, but never actually make any real or insightful points. During all of this, Clare Bronfman, the deep pockets of the organization, sits quietly.

[Vanessa Grigoriadis]

When he would talk, she would just nod along. She was just never going to say anything to contradict what he was saying.

[Narrator]

Vanessa steers the conversation back to the brand.

[Vanessa Grigoriadis]

If these initials were yours and Allison's and.

[Alison]

But they have to be some because.

[Vanessa Grigoriadis]

You see that they're there, though.

[Keith Raniere]

No, but they're not.

[Vanessa Grigoriadis]

Is that just, like, weird that they. You. Do you believe that's a coincidence of what the initials are in the.

[Keith Raniere]

Well, I mean, you can see there's also. I mean, at one point, someone showed me all the different letters those things can be the symbolism of why they put the. Those things together. Yeah, I guess they're. They're my initials. If you like, flip it in a mirror image and round it off. But that's not how I sign my initials. And as far as I know, when I first heard that it was interpreted my initials, my first thought was I was shocked and I didn't feel good about it. And then I thought about. I said, okay, well, what if they put Albert Einstein or they tattooed Albert Einstein? Would I care? And he said, no. I said, well, all right, because it's my name. So the other part of me said, well, what if it was my name? Who cares? And I've said this to people, it's not my name. I would feel funny if it were my name. I don't think it's particularly right that I feel funny if it's my name. I'm not quite sure. I haven't worked that out completely, but no, it's not. The bottom line is it's not Alison's initials, it's not my initials.

[Narrator]

In fact, Keith thinks the fixation on the brand is actually sexist.

[Keith Raniere]

I don't know, a group of 10 or 15 women in a suburbia. Their average age is like 40. Getting together and deciding to have a little hip brand. If that were guys, it would make news. The fact that it's women and the fact that it makes news is reinforcing, unfortunately. Negative stereotype of women, I think, in terms of what.

[Vanessa Grigoriadis]

What negative stereotype?

[Keith Raniere]

Well, if women or men are equal, a group of women getting a brand should get the same attention as a group of men branding each other. And we see that's not the case. And the more we. We treat them as different, right? The more we say, in a sense, women are weak. They can't make their decisions themselves, themselves. They can't do this sort of thing. This is mutilation.

[Lauren Salzman]

This is therapy.

[Keith Raniere]

If there's a guy, it's fine woman. No, they're delicate flower. And that reinforces this type of stereotype that I think we struggle with in society.

[Narrator]

Keith tells Vanessa that he's polyamorous. Vanessa asks him if he's sleeping with the woman in the sorority. And Keith basically says, sort of, but not really.

[Keith Raniere]

I have at least one polyamorous partner in the sorority, but this was a woman that. We haven't been very sexually active.

[Narrator]

This interview is taking place just a few months after the Harvey Weinstein allegation sparked the MeToo movement. And that seems to be part of Keith's framing.

[Vanessa Grigoriadis]

The way that they were positioning was we're an anti me too group. We don't actually want women to be victims. We don't like what's going on in culture. We are here to tell you that we're strong, and the brand is just a way of us bonding with each other like men in a fraternity and being strong together. So the fact that you are trying to say these women are victims of me when I didn't even have anything to do with it, is you're just painting them me as like one of these me too guys, and I'm not. But of course, it was far more complicated and worse than anything. Me too.

[Narrator]

Because the brand isn't empowered.

[Vanessa Grigoriadis]

The brand was right near women's genitals, to the inside of your pelvic bone. And Keith was performing oral sex on a lot of these women. And he wanted to have this brand right there. I mean, that's the reality.

[Narrator]

It's ownership. Women branded like cattle. Vanessa goes back home, but she doesn't publish her story yet. She's heard from key sources that Keith is about to be indicted by the US Government. She's waiting for that to happen. Meanwhile, in Albany, there's also movement to Mexico. Clare Bronfman has rented a villa for Keith by the sea. Allison and her supposed wife, Nikki Klein, plus Lauren Salzman and others are going to join them at that villa. And they're going there for a special purpose. Here's Lauren Salzman again.

[Lauren Salzman]

I got a call from one of the first line DOS members who basically laid out a recommitment ceremony.

[Narrator]

A recommitment ceremony.

[Lauren Salzman]

Keith wants to know why we've stopped taking naked pictures and stopped sending them to him. And he wants to know why we've stopped dos.

[Narrator]

According to this other DOS member, Keith is upset that DOS activity has slowed because of all the uproar with Sarah Edmondson and people leaving nxivm. And he wants the frontline DOS members, which includes Allison and Lauren, to renew their commitment to him. Sort of like renewing your vows after 20 years of marriage. But it's after three years of dossier.

[Lauren Salzman]

And it's becoming very clear that indictments are coming down the pike. And we don't know who's in trouble. And he's not really having a good pulse on it. I really started to feel like he lost the plot. Like he was getting really crazy in a lot of areas.

[Narrator]

But the recommitment ceremony isn't a typical vow renewal.

[Lauren Salzman]

Basically, this woman lays out that we need to do this commitment ceremony, and she lays out this, like, orgy concept. And I lost my shit. And she said to me, no, no, it's not my understanding that we're going to be having sex with each other. It's my understanding that we're going to be pleasuring him.

[Narrator]

Keith apparently wants the DOS members to have an orgy in which they pleasure him. Lauren calls Keith and confronts him and.

[Lauren Salzman]

He'S like, no, no, that person misunderstand. He blamed it all on her. Said she lied, said she's crazy, and that's why he doesn't talk to her. But then he says. He says this sentence that are all English words, but it doesn't make an actual sentence. And I said, I don't understand what you just said. And he said, you are so controlling that I should just talk to you like this all the time.

[Vanessa Grigoriadis]

Time.

[Lauren Salzman]

Because if you don't learn to surrender, you are never going to be able to grow. And he said, this person is at least committed. And I said, you think that they're more committed than me? And he said, they're more committed to growth. You're more committed to me. And I said, they are committed to getting attention and having sex with you for that attention. And he said, well, they could use that to grow. And I'm like, you just conceded the point, you know. So I was like, fine, I'm gonna go to this recommitment ceremony and confront you.

[Narrator]

So Lauren travels up to Guadalajara for this recommitment ceremony. But she could never anticipate what was about to happen or how it would test her loyalty. I've covered a lot of K pop stories in my time as a Korean.

[Vanessa Grigoriadis]

Journalist, but this one is different.

[Narrator]

All I need is one person to believe in me. All I need is one person to think I have something. Because Katy Zito isn't a famous K pop idol. That's what she wants to be. Can she do it in just three months at one of Seoul's grueling K pop academies? From USG Audio and novel Listen to Mission K Pop available now. Did you know you can opt out of winter with VRBO? Save up to $1,500 for booking a monthlong stay with thousands of sunny homes. Why subject yourself to the cold? Just filter your search by monthly stays and save up to $1,500. Book now at vrbo.com. So when Lauren gets to Guadalajara, she starts hanging out with Alison. They're spending a lot of time together.

[Lauren Salzman]

Alison is very childlike in a lot of ways. She's very sweet and artistic and creative and believes in the best, in like humanity. So she's like out buying flowers. We're in Guadalajara. It's gorgeous, right? The weather's nice. She's buying flowers, she's shopping. Everybody's fucking recognizing her because she's famous in Mexico.

[Narrator]

Lauren and Allison are staying together in a seaside home rented by Claire Bronfman.

[Lauren Salzman]

It was a villa. It's a poor fishing village on the coast. There is a gated community of very high end homes. So there's kitchen on the ground floor, a couple of suites off the kitchen and some upstairs downstairs like units. Big patio, pool and overlooking the ocean.

[Narrator]

The recommitment ceremony hasn't happened yet. In the meantime, they're all just doing their thing, working remotely if you can believe. Responding to emails and refining workshops as if nothing's wrong.

[Lauren Salzman]

And Keith isn't feeling good, wants to take a nap. We lay down to take a nap.

[Narrator]

While Keith and Lauren nap, Alison is in another room on her laptop. She's working on curriculum for the Source, the acting program she's in charge of. She too is carrying on as if the nothing's wrong. Meanwhile, Lauren begins to stir.

[Lauren Salzman]

I wake up and we're in this room. It's white. Everything's white. This is one of the weirdest experiences my whole life. The doors to the beach are open and there's white curtains and the whole room is white and it's silent and the curtains are silently blowing. And I think to myself, this is the place between two worlds. We woke up, I went to the kitchen, I was making a smoothie. He asked me to bring him some food. I brought him some food. And Loretta comes running into the kitchen. She's like, the police are here for Keith. And then they just basically stormed the property. They're wearing masks and some of them are bulletproof vests, machine guns. And I go on this high alert, like, I'm gonna protect Keith. So I go into his suite and I lock it down and I'm like, get the fuck out of here. Like, go out the window. And all I can think of is just protect Keith.

[Narrator]

Lauren thinks these guys are hired thugs sent by an enemy of Keith's to kidnap him because Keith has told her that important people are after him.

[Lauren Salzman]

He went and hid in the closet and he told me to go deal with them, to ask them if they had a warrant. I started talking to them through the door and I'm like, show me a warrant.

[Narrator]

Lauren is standing in this all white room, the space between two worlds, where minutes earlier she'd been napping with Keith. Now Keith is hiding in the large walk in closet. And she's here all alone, shouting through the door at men who, who have guns pointed right at her.

[Lauren Salzman]

And they're like, if you open the door, we'll show you the warrant. And I said, show me the warrant and I'll open the door. And I keep running to the door to talk to them and then moving to the side because I was afraid they were going to shoot the door down.

[Narrator]

This is not a woman who's afraid of much, but now she's ducking to the side, terrified of getting shot while Keith is still hidden away.

[Lauren Salzman]

And then they came in, they burst in. They put me on the floor, face down, and they start asking me who's in there with me? And I'm not responding.

[Narrator]

Lauren is face down on the floor, guns pointed at her, frozen in shock.

[Lauren Salzman]

I thought they were going to start physically assaulting me. And so I expected I was about to start being like hit and kicked. But it didn't happen. They didn't need to. I was on the floor with guns. Like, I wasn't fighting them, I just wasn't answering.

[Narrator]

Lauren's terrified, so she does what anyone would do. She calls for her partner, the guy she's been in some sort of relationship with at this point for 17 years, who's still hiding in the closet, not defending her.

[Lauren Salzman]

I called Keith's name, and he, at the same time as that happened, came.

[Narrator]

Out of the closet, but not voluntarily. Lauren says the police break down the door to Keith's walk in closet and take him out. They found him, but they're not done with Lauren. They let her get up from the floor, and they start questioning her.

[Lauren Salzman]

They let me sit on the bed, and then they started demanding to know what was in Keith's suitcase. And I said, it's clothes. And they're like, it's guns. And I'm like, no, we're peaceful people. It's not guns. It's clothes. So they. They're like, open it. So I open it, and Mariana had packed Keith's suitcase, and it had all of these little packages of Chiclets in all different colors.

[Narrator]

Chiclets. The brightly colored candy. Keith didn't follow a diet, of course. He liked sweets. But others weren't supposed to know. One of his partners, a woman named Mariana, had packed Chiclets for him in his suitcase. And now Lauren and these police officers are staring at this bag filled with candy.

[Lauren Salzman]

So I open this fucking thing up that they think are drugs and arms, and it's like underwear and candy.

[Narrator]

Underwear and candy. NXIVM's great leader, the man who was supposed to be the smartest guy in the world, had been reduced to empty calories and cotton briefs he'd hidden in a closet when the police came looking for him, leaving a woman to stand up to armed men pointing guns at her. He hadn't stepped in to help, not even when Lauren called his name. The Federales arrest Keith and take him away. After the arrest, Lauren and the others realize this is really serious. They all moved to the same condo building where Vanessa interviewed Keith in Guadalajara. Except when Vanessa was there, they only met her on the ground floor. They are now in the penthouse.

[Lauren Salzman]

Once all this happened, Nikki put Allison on lockdown. Like, she wasn't allowed to go out or she wasn't allowed to go out without Nikki babysitting her because she kept getting recognized. And we didn't know if we were safe.

[Alison]

We posted up in the penthouse to try and, like, figure out what to do. Like, what's going on and what do we do? And that's when we found out that Keith had been extradited and was arraigned in front of a Judge in Texas or something like that. And that it was, was like really bad. Like he had like a ton of charges.

[Narrator]

Keith has been charged finally. He's charged with forcing women to engage in sex According to a 22 page complaint filed on Valentine's Day of all days in 2018.

[Alison]

And then there was a New York Times piece that came out that was talking about the indictment against Keith and talked about me as co conspirator and India as Co Conspirator 1 and 2. And then it also talked about the fact that I put up a collateral that involved my family. And when Danny read that on her phone, I passed out. I fainted. And it wasn't like I like went all the way down to the ground. I just like, my knees buckled and I fell back and Lauren caught me. And as we started talking to everybody in New York, talking to Claire, talking to Nancy, talking to everybody, it became clear that I was the one that was going to be in the biggest trouble because my name was in the indictment, but that everybody else could go back home.

[Narrator]

Lauren heads back to the US So do the others.

[Alison]

And so, one by one, everybody started leaving the penthouse until it was just me.

[Narrator]

Allison is in purgatory, a penthouse apartment in Guadalajara, waiting to hear what's gonna happen, whether she's going to face charges herself.

[Alison]

It was like I was walking above reality, you know what I mean? Like, I was just doing all the things that I knew to do to like, stay. I was doing my yoga every morning. I was, you know, like just doing my life, you know, waiting for this to blow over. And I was by myself. And that was fucking bizarre. And I was like, this is just like some big crazy misunderstanding. Like it's gonna get figured out. It's gonna get figured out. And then Claire found me an attorney. I sent them the last of my money to secure them.

[Narrator]

Alison forks over $40,000 to pay the lawyer's retainer fee. Now she's broke, alone, in crisis.

[Alison]

And I remember there was one point that I think is important where I walked out on the balcony of this, like, big, giant white apartment. I called it my ivory tower. And I looked down, you know, and I thought, this is too much. I think I can just jump and then everything will be better. And then I was like, but then I won't know what happens. You know, it's like not a super logical thought, but I was like, I want to know what happened.

[Narrator]

She has no idea what she's done.

[Alison]

Because he kept telling her everything was on the up and up and I laid down and I went to sleep in the paddy wagon. My body was like, you're done.

[Lauren Salzman]

I chose Keith, Keith chose Keith. And then Keith continued to choose Keith again and again and again.

[Narrator]

If you or someone you know is struggling with thoughts of suicide, help is available. You can call or text 988 for free 24. 7 support. You're not alone. Tune in next week for an all new episode of Alison after nxivm. Or you can listen ahead to the full full series now by subscribing to CBC True Crime Premium on Apple Podcasts or by subscribing to the CBC True crime channel on YouTube. Links in the show description. You've been listening to Allison after nxivm from CBC and Campside Media. It's hosted by me, Natalie Robomed. Our executive producers are myself and Vanessa Grigoriadis at Campside and Stephen Belper. Our senior producer is Lily Houston Smith and our associate producer is Emma Siminoff. Sound design mix and Engineering by Mark McAdam and Ewin Lai Trimuin. Thank you to Colin Campbell at cbc, Our story editor is Derek John and our senior producer is Kate Evans. Our coordinating producer is Emily Connell. Our executive producers are Cecil Fernandez and Chris Oak. Tonya Springer is the senior manager. Arif Nurani is the director. If you enjoyed Alison after nxivm, please rate and review the show wherever you get your podcasts.

[Alison]

Thanks for listening.

[Narrator]

If you liked this show, Escaping nxivm is a powerful story of the beginning of the unraveling of Keith Ranieri's culture. Listen to Escaping NXIVM at the link in the show notes or by scrolling to Season one of Uncover wherever you're listening right now. For more cbc podcasts, go to cbc ca podcasts.