S35 E5: The Trial | Allison after NXIVM

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Podcast Summary:

Uncover: Allison after NXIVM
Episode: S35 E5 – The Trial | Allison after NXIVM
Date: December 1, 2025
Host: CBC & Campside Media
Summary by [Your Name]

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Episode Overview

This episode delves deep into the pivotal period of legal reckoning for Allison Mack, former Smallville actress and high-ranking NXIVM member, as she faces trial for her critical role in the criminal activities at the heart of the group. Through compelling firsthand interviews, courtroom drama, and raw emotional confessions, listeners are given an inside look at the shifting allegiances, dawning realizations, and harrowing choices made by Allison and her co-defendant, Lauren Salzman. The episode grapples with themes of manipulation, accountability, delusion, and the slow, painful journey towards acceptance and, potentially, redemption.

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Key Discussion Points and Insights

1. Allison Mack's Arrest & Detention (00:47–08:41)

• Allison’s Arrest: Allison recounts the surreal day FBI agents, led in by Nikki Clyne, arrest her at home (“They mouthed to me, 'they’re gonna arrest you.'...And everything just, like, quiet, you know, and slow.” — Allison Mack, 02:08).
• Detention Experience: She describes being transported in shackles past her own Brooklyn home and being called “Piper” by a marshal—an ironic nod to a TV role she almost landed (03:42–04:09).
• First Prison Moments: Allison recalls the unexpected kindness of inmates—“They were like, ‘you look so scared...do you want a cookie?’” (04:51).
• Family Strain Over Bail: Allison’s mother, Mindy Mack, expresses worry over risking all their assets for bail, unsure of Allison’s loyalties (06:30). Bail is eventually posted at $5 million, and Allison begins house arrest in California, wearing an ankle monitor for over three years (07:39, 08:21).

2. Allison on House Arrest—Still Under NXIVM’s Spell (08:49–12:24)

• Restrictions and Paparazzi: Allison could not leave the house for six weeks; her mother tried to let her feel sunlight through the open French doors (09:00).
• Media Frenzy: Tabloids paint Allison as "Madame Mack," focusing on her alleged role as an enforcer and recruiter.
• Persistence of DOS Rituals: Even on house arrest, Allison obsessively adheres to NXIVM/DOS routines: cold showers, regimented journaling, extreme food weighing, and household exercise circuits (“I was still trying to do DOS stuff to keep, like, my discipline” – Allison Mack, 11:05).
• Attorney Frustration: Allison’s denial exasperates her legal team as she offers justifications for all her actions, unable to see the harm (11:52–12:24).

3. Lauren Salzman’s Awakening and Cooperation (12:24–19:25)

• Lauren’s Crisis of Faith: Lauren describes the moment she began doubting Keith after he hid in a closet during his arrest, abandoning her (13:11). She starts to read legal discovery and sees, for the first time, Keith’s manipulation laid bare (14:07).
• Keith’s Betrayal: Lauren is stunned to realize Keith wants his followers to take the fall for him—“If he could, he would send me to jail in his place.” (17:04).
• Decision to Cooperate: Shaken, Lauren tells her attorneys, “I have to testify…if I’m going to jail anyway, I’m going to jail telling the truth.” (19:02). She breaks rank by proffering—agreeing to cooperate with prosecutors.

4. Allison’s Internal Struggle and the Shattering of Denial (20:04–22:06)

• Confronting Damning Evidence: Prosecutors show Allison incriminating messages between Keith and an underage victim—her defenses crack: “It would be like a chink in the armor...whoa, that's fucked up and disturbing.” (20:04)
• Critical Turning Point: The “superseding indictment” confirming Keith’s abuse of minors, and a direct warning from Lauren, finally penetrate Allison’s denial: “Lauren called my attorney and was like, tell Allison to get the fuck out, that we were wrong and get the fuck out.” (21:02)
• Shared Trauma: Allison acknowledges that Lauren is the only person who could truly understand her—“There was nobody in the world that I can say has had a similar experience…” (21:28)

5. The Trial—Courtroom Drama and Revelation (23:08–33:59)

• Massive Public Interest: The trial of Keith Raniere attracts national attention; paparazzi swarm the courthouse as each NXIVM principal appears (23:08–23:47).
• Courtroom Atmosphere: The gravity of the proceedings makes everything feel “larger than life.” Judge Garaufis is incredulous at the cult’s bizarre crimes (24:43).
• Testimony of Abuse: The courtroom learns in real time of NXIVM’s deepest abuses, including statutory rape, sex trafficking, brandings, asset theft, and internal blackmail (27:11, 27:24).
• Willful Ignorance and Siloed Control: Allison admits she avoided learning about some atrocities but “purposely kept herself from hearing things that would have been uncomfortable” (28:08).
• Damning Tape Played: Crucial evidence—a tape of Keith instructing Allison on branding ceremonies—shows she did not originate the most abusive rituals, but both her complicity and victimization are clear (32:15–33:59).

6. The Emotional Cost and Plea Deals (34:07–43:16)

• Definitions and Denial: Allison tries to draw a moral line—“I didn’t tell anybody to have sex with Keith. I told them to seduce him. And they were like, seducing is sex!” (34:40)
• Breaking Point: Prosecutors’ aggressive questioning brings Allison to tears—“I don't know what's true. I thought I knew what was true. Clearly I was wrong…at this point, I just don't know what is real, you know.” (35:51)
• Lauren Testifies: Lauren Salzman breaks down on the stand under cross-examination, especially as Keith (through lawyers) tries to emotionally manipulate her even in court (39:33, 40:02). The judge intervenes to stop the intimidation, sparking courtroom tension (40:53).
• Allison’s Guilty Plea: Inspired by Lauren’s actions and overcome by evidence and emotional collapse, Allison decides to change course—“I don't understand this...but I’m gonna plead guilty because I am guilty.” (42:16)
• Seeking Redemption: She begins cooperating with prosecutors, hoping for leniency and a way out of psychological and moral chaos, haunted by the question, “Will anyone believe she's actually changed her mind?” (43:07)

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Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• On Arrest:
  • “They were like, we don't feel like we need to put cuffs on you if you'll just come with us. And I was like, no, I'm not gonna fight you.” (Allison Mack, 02:24)
  • “The marshal was like, okay, Piper from Orange is the New Black, let's go.” (03:42)
• On Realization:
  • “I remember the moment when Keith went and hid in the closet and I was like, I couldn't process what had just happened because it didn't fit with what a leader should do.” (Lauren Salzman, 13:11)
  • “He wanted out, he wanted out, he wanted to get out, and he wanted other people to figure out ways to get him bail and get him out. I realized that if he could, he would send me to jail in his place.” (Lauren Salzman, 17:04)
• On Denial and Trauma:
  • “I'm not crazy. I'm not crazy. I'm not crazy. And my mom would be like, I know you're not crazy. You know, it's like so strange. It must have felt like an exorcism for my mom.” (Allison Mack, 10:05)
  • “I had a justification for every single thing. And my attorneys were like, how do we get through to her?” (11:52)
• On Courtroom Testimony:
  • “Keith's attorney was doing a cross examination... Keith kept sending post its to ask if I love him, if I still love him. And they were trying to get me to say that I was the one that left the relationship…And I was like, no, I'm here trying to be ethical by telling the fucking truth.” (Lauren Salzman, 39:33, 40:02)
• On Collapsing Defenses:
  • “You explicitly told girls to go seduce Keith. And I was like, but I. But I meant just flirt with him...how is that any different?...because it’s different. It was different in my head.” (Allison Mack, 35:41)
  • “I don't understand this, and I don't know how this is true, but I'm gonna plead guilty because I am guilty.” (Allison Mack, 42:16)

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Important Segment Timestamps

• Allison’s Arrest & Prison Experience: 01:49–05:25
• Bail Decision and Family Conflict: 06:30–08:21
• House Arrest & DOS Routine: 11:05–11:38
• Lauren’s Crisis and Cooperation: 13:11–19:25
• Prosecutors’ Evidence Breaks Allison’s Denial: 20:04–21:28
• Trial Begins, Public Frenzy: 23:08–24:40
• NXIVM’s Atrocities Detailed in Court: 27:11–28:55
• Branding Tape Played: 32:10–33:59
• Definition of ‘Seduce’ Confronted: 34:40–35:41
• Lauren’s Emotional Testimony & Judge’s Intervention: 39:33–41:51
• Allison’s Guilty Plea and Aftermath: 42:16–43:16

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Tone & Style

The episode maintains a raw, confessional tone throughout, punctuated by moments of incredulity, heartbreak, and hard-won clarity. The speakers’ language is unguarded, often profane, deeply emotional, and laced with both regret and self-examination.

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Conclusion

This episode offers an unfiltered look inside the high-stakes unraveling of NXIVM’s most notorious inner circle. Through Allison Mack’s and Lauren Salzman’s voices, listeners witness not only the exposure of harrowing crimes, but also the slow, painful collapse of delusion and the uncertain beginnings of accountability. The story leaves us with questions about guilt, recovery, and who gets to reclaim their story after participating in great harm.

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Transcript

[Tom Power]

When Joe Hill started writing, he kept his real last name a secret from publishers because his real last name is King. His dad is the Stephen King, the guy who wrote books like it and Carrie and the Shining. So Joe's a best selling author himself. And over the years, the secret is out. But on cue with me, Tom Power, Joe will tell you why keeping that secret actually helped his career and how the biggest giveaway that he was Stephen King's son was was his face. Listen to Q with Tom Power wherever you get your podcasts.

[Narrator]

This is a CBC podcast.

[Alison Mack]

Campsite Media.

[Narrator]

It's an overcast afternoon in 2018, and Allison Mack is moving house after camping out in Guadalajara for a period. Word came down from NXIVM higher ups that she should return to New York. So now Alison is back in her brownstone in Brooklyn Heights, surrounded by boxes. It's the same apartment that Vanessa Gregoriadis met Alison at just a few months prior. Vanessa was the reporter NXIVM authorized Allison to speak with when they were in damage control mode. She's also our executive producer on this show. When Vanessa spoke with Allison, the apartment had been bare because Allison was still making the move down from Albany. Now it's in complete disarray, stuffed to the gills with all the things Allison needs to unpack. And Allison is carrying on as if everything's normal, as if her guru, Keith Reneary, hasn't just been arrested.

[Alison Mack]

I was, like, looking around my place, and I was like, okay, okay, it's pretty bad, but, like, we'll start figuring it out. And then Nikki walked in my door with two guys behind her.

[Narrator]

That's Nikki Klein, the Canadian actress, another First Line DOS member, and the woman Allison is legally married to at this point.

[Alison Mack]

And she mouthed to me, they're gonna arrest you. And I was like, okay. And everything just, like, quiet, you know, and slow.

[Narrator]

The two men with Nikki are FBI agents.

[Alison Mack]

And they were like, we don't feel like we need to put cuffs on you if you'll just come with us. And I was like, no, I'm not gonna fight you. Like, I'll come with you. And I was like, what do I need? And they were like, nothing. And I, like, took all my jewelry off and put it down. Took my earrings out and put it down. I went to grab a scarf, and they were like, don't bring a scarf. Just come with us. So I put the scarf down and I. And I went with him. And they had this, like, unmarked car sitting outside the house, and I sat in the car and we Drove to, I think we drove to the courthouse.

[Narrator]

From there, Allison is transported to the Metropolitan Detention center, an imposing building in Brooklyn's Sunset park neighborhood. It's on the water, so they put.

[Alison Mack]

Me in the paddy wagon. We're all shackled and we're driving and we drive past my apartment because my apartment was right on the promenade in Brooklyn Heights. So we drive right past my apartment and I was like, that's my house. You know, from inside, like this like thing that I've only seen from the outside. And I laid down and I went to sleep in the paddy wagon. Like I tucked my legs up from under me and I just put my head and I think it was just like my body was like, we can't do this. Like, you're done.

[Narrator]

When they arrive, Alison wakes.

[Alison Mack]

We got to the detention center. I remember the marshal was like, okay, Piper from Orange is the New Black, let's go.

[Narrator]

The marshal calls her Piper after the blonde haired, blue eyed main character from the TV show Orange Is the New Black.

[Alison Mack]

And the weird thing about that is I had gotten really close to getting that part. Like I went back multiple times when they were casting that show for Piper.

[Narrator]

That's right. Allyson says she had actually auditioned for this very role. The wide eyed white woman who finds herself in prison.

[Alison Mack]

This is so surreal and ironic. Like, what are you talking about? So he's like, okay, Piper, let's go.

[Narrator]

Alison is taken inside, given her uniform, a set of oversized scrubs. She's taken to her cell.

[Alison Mack]

There's just this big huge dorm room that has bunk beds and then like picnic benches kind of, and TVs and an ice machine. And there's just like women in there, like doing each other's hair, talking, hanging out. And they told me like, what bunk was mine.

[Narrator]

Allison goes and sits down on the.

[Alison Mack]

Edge of her bunk and these two women came over to me and bent down and looked at me and makes me cry. She was just like, are you alright? And I was like, yeah, I'm okay. And she was like, you look so scared. She had like this thick New York accent, you know, you look so scared. And I was like, yeah, I've never been to prison before. They were like, oh, you're gonna be alright. They were like, do you want a cookie? And they gave me like this oatmeal cookie, you know, that you can buy on commissary. And I was like, oh, thanks.

[Narrator]

You know, Alison has moved house, just not to the place she was expecting. And if she wants to survive, she'll have to unpack what got her here in the first place. But Alison is still completely under Keith's spell. And everyone around her, her family, the press, the prosecutors, have one big question. Will she defend Keith or turn on him and potentially save herself? From Campsite Media and CBC, this is Alison after NXIVM from CBC's Uncover. I'm Natalie Robomed. This is episode five, the Trial. While Alison sits in detention, Alison's mom, Mindy Mac, gets a call from Alison's attorneys. They tell Mindy she needs to examine her and her husband's assets because they're going to be asked to put up bail.

[Mindy Mac]

So I had a real estate friend do a quick evaluation on our home, and I got together all the assets, you know, IRAs and everything that we have. But first what I did is I said, I want to write a letter to Allison because I'm nervous about putting every asset that we have on the line when I'm not sure that her allegiance is to us and not Keith, because I don't want her to throw us under the bus to uphold Keith. And so I wrote a letter to her to that effect about how much we love her and how much we support her. But we need to be sure this is all we have. So we need you to promise us that you'll be loyal to us and uphold us.

[Narrator]

Alison's lawyers read her the letter.

[Alison Mack]

They said, what do you want us to say to her? And I was like, well, what if she knows that if they bail me out, like, I'll come home to Long beach and I'll stay with them in Long beach and do what they want me to do if they'll bail me out.

[Narrator]

Alison's bail is set at $5 million.

[Mindy Mac]

We put up the bail, everything we have, plus 2 million. So the judge, he said, you realize that you owe the state of New York $2 million if your daughter runs? And I went, gulp.

[Narrator]

Alison is fitted with an ankle monitor, a permanent one.

[Alison Mack]

I remember that moment very specifically, them putting the ankle monitor on my foot and just being like, whoa. Like, like, like just clamped, you know, it's very heavy. It's so cumbersome and awkward and uncomfortable. And I wore that fucker for three and a half years.

[Narrator]

About a week after her arrest, Alison flies back to Long Beach. She starts house arrest at her parents home just outside the city. It's a small, prim white house in a suburban neighborhood. For the first few weeks, paparazzi are camped outside, hoping to get a glimpse of Allison. But Alison isn't allowed Outdoors.

[Mindy Mac]

She couldn't go outside for the first six weeks at all. She couldn't go in our backyard. And she was freaking out.

[Narrator]

Mindy, ever the loving mother, comes up with a creative solution. Their living room has French doors that look out onto the garden and a small turquoise pool that sits glistening within it.

[Mindy Mac]

So I opened all the French doors on the back of our house and I put a chaise lounge with her ankle inside and her body outside so she could feel the sun on her skin, you know, because she was losing her mind.

[Narrator]

Because this story is becoming major news and Alison is going from famous to infamous. Her face is splashed across the tabloids. Government prosecutors are alleging Allison was part of an organized scheme to provide sex to Keith. That under the guise of female empowerment, she starved women until they fit Keith's sexual feminine ideal. The press is even beginning to call her Madame Mac for what she did. And the case is widening. Three months after Allison's arrest, Laurence Salzman is arrested and indicted along with her mom, Nancy Salzman, Seagram's heir Claire Bronfman, and former NXIVM bookkeeper Kathy Russell. These NXIVM higher ups are named as co defendants alongside Alison and Keith. But Alison is still insisting this is all a mistake.

[Alison Mack]

I would just fly into these like, fits of rage where I'd be like, why is this happening to me? I didn't do anything wrong. I'm innocent. I miss my friends and I miss my community. And. And then I would always end it with, I'm not crazy. And I would just say over and over like, I'm not crazy. I'm not crazy. I'm not crazy. And my mom would be like, I know you're not crazy. You know, it's like so strange. It must have felt like an exorcism for my mom, you know, like, what is happening with my daughter?

[Mindy Mac]

I thought, my poor girl, my poor beautiful girl. She doesn't know what's going on. I mean, he messed with her brain, he messed with her mind in a way that it hurts me.

[Vanessa Gregoriadis]

So.

[Narrator]

While on house arrest, Alison isn't allowed to talk to anyone from nxivm. But she's still carrying on with her DOS activities.

[Alison Mack]

I would like, structure my day, wake up at five, take a five minute cold shower. I was still trying to do DOS stuff to keep, like my discipline, you know, journal, 30 minutes, 9:05, have breakfast, weighing all my food. Still I set up like an obstacle course in my parents house so that I could exercise because I couldn't run, obviously. So I Would like run up and down my parents stairs 10 times and run around the living room four times. And I was just trying to keep whatever I could keep together, you know.

[Narrator]

At this point, Clare Bronfman, the Seagram's heir who bankrolled nxivm, is also allegedly funding its defense. She's paying for lawyers for Alison, and Alison flies back and forth to New York to meet with them.

[Alison Mack]

My poor attorneys. I was so delusional. I was like, we weren't doing anything wrong. Let me tell you all the amazing things that were happening. And then they'd be like, but you are starving. I'd be like, no, I was actually very disciplined. And blah, blah, blah, blah. And they'd be like, but you were wearing something that was cutting your belly if you ate too much. Yes, but that was because blah, blah, blah. But you were sending women to have sex with Keith. No, I was having women therapeutically overcome their. You know what I mean? Like, I had a justification for every single thing. And my attorneys were like, how do we get through to her? How do we defend? How do we defend her?

[Narrator]

But what will Lauren Salzman do? Lauren, the daughter of prefect Nancy Salzman, who was in the room with Keith when he was arrested by Mexican police.

[Lauren Salzman]

They just basically stormed the property. And all I can think of is just protect Keith.

[Narrator]

Lauren is one of Keith's long term girlfriends and has been in NXIVM for most of her adult life ever since her mom got involved when Lauren was still in college. Like Allison, Lauren's life is now on the line. She's facing charges of racketeering and racketeering conspiracy, really serious felonies, typically brought against organized crime operations that come with hefty jail time. But that incident in Mexico when Keith hid in the closet and left Lauren to face the armed men alone, shook something loose within her.

[Lauren Salzman]

I remember the moment when Keith went and hid in the closet and I was like, I couldn't process what had just happened because it didn't fit with what a leader should do.

[Narrator]

Lauren's starting to see some contradictions in Keith's behavior.

[Lauren Salzman]

When Keith started having situations where it was life or death or freedom or not freedom, you got to see his values hierarchy in real time.

[Narrator]

Lawrence says the thing he valued most was himself.

[Lauren Salzman]

Only. Only save himself. And he expected everyone else to throw themselves on the mercy of the court and the court of public opinion.

[Narrator]

During this time, Lauren is on house arrest too, at her home in Albany. And while she's there all alone, cut off from everyone, she starts Reading the discovery. That is all the information that has been gathered in the case against her.

[Lauren Salzman]

I sat for three months home, like from October to December, just reading everything that they sent me, anything that I could get on the case. But it was like all of Keith's communications with everybody. And so when you can read Keith's communications with everybody, it paints a different picture when you can just read the words instead of how he's choosing to creatively interpret his behavior.

[Narrator]

So what did you see in those communications?

[Lauren Salzman]

I saw him gaslighting people, and then I understood what he did to me.

[Narrator]

What did he do to you?

[Lauren Salzman]

He gaslighted me and made me think that I had no real worth outside of whatever benefit I could be to him or to the organization. And to the extent that I tried to prove my worth, it was like a joke, like that I would think that I could heal or fix things where I could actually have a life that I wanted for myself or have been promised. It was like I was so worthless. I didn't qualify for that life. And I. I made real trades for things I wanted in my life because of the work and because of the community, children, sex, any close relationships of any kind at all. For 20 years, he undermined and thwarted every close relationship that I had in my life. My grandparents, my parents, my sibling, my best friends, any partner, any prospect or partner or a co parent to a child, anything. I had no worth to anyone. And it felt like I didn't know how to explain that I wasn't this bad thing.

[Narrator]

She's been in NXIVM for 20 years, her entire adult life, and now she's doubting it all.

[Lauren Salzman]

You have perspectives about things, and then when you go in and you check where the perspective came from, it all came from Keith. So then you start going, I can't count on that. I can't count on any of that.

[Narrator]

Then Lauren says something happens in one of those conversations with her lawyers that opens her eyes even further.

[Lauren Salzman]

There was an ask. It was communicated quite clearly what he would like in the situation.

[Narrator]

Legally, Lauren isn't able to talk about the specifics, but what she's alleging is that Keith made it apparent that he would like her and other NXIVM people to take the fall.

[Lauren Salzman]

He wanted out, he wanted out, he wanted to get out, and he wanted other people to figure out ways to get him bail and get him out. I realized that if he could, he would send me to jail in his place.

[Narrator]

For Lauren, that changes everything. Keith's apparent unwillingness to take responsibility for his own actions and instead wanting his followers to take the fall for him does not fit with the core NXIVM ethos of accountability.

[Lauren Salzman]

I just started seeing it. It was so fucking clear. And after Christmas vacation, I called one of the attorneys who wasn't my own, and I said, am I right to believe that if Keith wanted to, he could take a plea, even if that plea was life, and make this go away for the rest of us? And they said 100% he could. And I said that he's not the leader I thought he was, because the leader he convinced us he was is the person who would be the leader. He's the most responsible, and he takes the hardest consequences for everyone. That's what a Gandhi does. That's what a Jesus does. That is not what Keith does. And the people who don't see it are, because they were not in a situation where it was like black and white, him or you. When it's black and white, him or you, and he chooses him every time. You didn't misinterpret that. And there is no creative interpretation of it. They weren't there when he sent me to the guns. They weren't there when he tried to get us to take his place.

[Narrator]

Lauren does something unprecedented, something Keith probably never would have expected from one of his most loyal, longest term girlfriends.

[Lauren Salzman]

I was like, call the prosecutors.

[Tom Power]

Call them.

[Lauren Salzman]

I have to testify. They don't understand what happened. I have to testify. And I was basically told, you can't testify, you'll go to jail. And I was like, well, if I'm going to jail anyway, I'm going to jail telling the truth. Call them and I'll tell them, no, I'm not going to go to trial and sit next to him and, and act like this is noble. So just call them, tell them I'll tell them everything. And they can send me if they're sending me, because I'm not doing this anymore.

[Narrator]

Lauren breaks rank from the other NXIVM folks and starts talking to the federal government, cooperating with them, helping them build their case against Keith. But with a trial looming, what will Allison do? So while Lauren is cooperating with prosecutors, beginning a process called proffering, where you cut a deal with the government in exchange for providing information, Allison is being badgered by prosecutors too. They're questioning her and also giving her information to try to change her mind, including messages between Keith and a particularly vulnerable woman.

[Alison Mack]

They kept giving evidence to my attorneys to give to me, and they were like, gross text messages, like, really inappropriate Gross text messages. And I would read them and it would be like a chink in the armor, you know, it would be like, whoa, that's like fucked up and disturbing. But then I would be like, but he was in some way helping her. Like in some way he was trying to work with her.

[Narrator]

But Allison's self interest is part of the denial too.

[Alison Mack]

If I recognized that Keith was manipulating all of us and that this was a strategy for his own perversion, I had to acknowledge what I had chosen and that I had hurt people in a way that was not righteous and was not good, but was actually the opposite of all those things.

[Narrator]

Still, some evidence is too hard to ignore. One day, Alison's in her bedroom at her parents house and she says her attorney calls to to deliver a message from Lauren.

[Alison Mack]

The real linchpin was there was a superseding indictment that came out that confirmed that he was having sex with underage women. And Lauren called my attorney and was like, tell Allison to get the fuck out, that we were wrong and get the fuck out.

[Narrator]

Lauren, this woman she's looked up to for years, who was a first line slave like her, is telling her to get out.

[Alison Mack]

There was nobody, there is nobody in the world that I can say has had a similar experience to me other than Lawrence Alsman. And she never forgot about me. You know what I mean? She never ran away to her own sacrifice, you know, like she went through some pretty gnarly shit. And so when she said that, I was like, she has nothing to gain. Nothing. There's no reason for her to say this other than it's true and I need to pay attention.

[Vanessa Gregoriadis]

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[Narrator]

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[Vanessa Gregoriadis]

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[Narrator]

All I need is one person to believe in me. All I need is one person to think I have something.

[Vanessa Gregoriadis]

Because Katy Zito isn't a famous K pop idol. That's what she wants to be. Can she do it in just three months at one of Seoul's grueling K pop academies from USG Audio and Novel.

[Narrator]

Listen to Mission K Pop, available now. It's May 2019, about a year since Alison was arrested. We're outside a federal courtroom in New York for the first day of a trial that has grabbed the nation. United States v. Keith Ranieri. Our executive producer, Vanessa Gregoriadis, was there. Here's Vanessa.

[Vanessa Gregoriadis]

So the courtroom was in a modern building in downtown Brooklyn. It was basically this courthouse with a park in front of it and the reporters and the paparazzi and Everybody else just hung out with their news cameras in the park. And then when somebody would pull up, they sort of would look down the street, and it was almost like a half block away where folks would get out of their cars, the defendants, and as soon as they saw something like Allison's blond head, they would just all dash to go surround her with their cameras.

[Narrator]

Inside. No audio or video recording is permitted, but luckily, Vanessa is in the room, which is on a high floor of the courthouse.

[Vanessa Gregoriadis]

I've described this courtroom as being very large and the judge's bench as being terribly tall. And I actually got a letter from somebody who said it wasn't terribly tall. And the next time I went in there, I went and I looked, and it actually. Indeed, it was not. And I thought to myself, oh, my God, this was just. Because what was happening in this courtroom was so dramatic that it felt almost like we were little kids at school where everything just took this larger size.

[Narrator]

Judge Garrifus sits behind the bench.

[Vanessa Gregoriadis]

The judge was almost out of central casting. This really heavy New York accent. Sort of surprised, like, who are you people that you're in my courtroom? What? Occult branding? What are you guys doing? This is crazy. I can't believe you're here. And when Clare Bronfman was arraigned, he really gave her the business. He was like your family. You had everything. You're here trying to get bail. I think it was, like, $100 million bail. How did you get yourself mixed up in this thing?

[Narrator]

In the crowd today are a bunch of former NACSIVM members, as well as advocates, including actress Katherine Oxenberg, who campaigned to get her daughter, India Oxenberg, one of Allyson's slaves, out of NXIVM. They're all here to see Keith and NXIVM's inner circle brought to justice.

[Vanessa Gregoriadis]

The big first thing that happened is Keith showed up with his lawyers, you know, in his little sweater. And here's the guru, and he's just sitting there. He's tiny. You know, he's not a very tall man, and he seems so small. And you're realizing that he's captured.

[Narrator]

Almost a year and a half earlier, Vanessa had been talking to Keith in Mexico, and now the larger than life cult leader is here, shrunk down to size. He's been denied bail. And as the trial gets underway, the testimony that comes out shrinks him even further.

[Vanessa Gregoriadis]

There were so many people who came to the trial that they had to set up an overflow room. So there was an overflow room on a higher floor. That had the video feed of what was going on. If you didn't get there really early in the morning, you had to go there.

[Narrator]

Today they're talking about the underage woman Lauren told Allison about.

[Vanessa Gregoriadis]

So I was in that room when the testimony of Camilla came in. And Camilla being the woman who allegedly had sex with or was raped by Keith when she was underage and had a long term relationship with him. As a first line master, just like Allyson and Lauren and everybody else, I don't think that their relationship was fully understood or known.

[Narrator]

Keith was so secretive and so many parts of NXIVM were kept from others that some Nexium members were learning what had really been going on for the first time during the trial. Alison remembers this.

[Alison Mack]

As we were going through the case, I was like, wait, what? He was stealing money. Wait, what? There was cash in Nancy's house. Wait, what? There were. They were holding passports from people and wait, what? Like Danny was kept in a room in a house. Like, wait, like I didn't. Those were all things that I was. Wait, were freezing people's bodies. Like, I didn't. I wasn't inside the know of all of that stuff. I was inside the know of a lot of the stuff that was happening in dos. Even with that, I knew specifically what was happening with my group. And the stuff that I knew about Danny's group or Nikki's group or whatever was like strategically told to me in order to leverage that information so that I would change my behavior or do something different in my group.

[Narrator]

Again, devil's advocate, like, were you willfully ignorant?

[Alison Mack]

I think part of me was, yeah, absolutely. I purposely kept myself from hearing things that would have been uncomfortable for me. But the way that I processed what I heard, when I did hear those things that were uncomfortable for me was, how is this my issue? Keith is altruistic and everything he's doing has good intentions. So how is what he's doing in this situation helping somebody or working around a boundary that shouldn't exist in the world? Do you know what I mean? So that that was like my base assumption and my processed frame that I was just constantly operating within. There was a lot of stuff that was going on that I was like, I don't understand that and I don't need to know that. And Keith would say that you don't need to know that information.

[Narrator]

Here's Vanessa again.

[Vanessa Gregoriadis]

I think that Keith kept a lot of his girlfriends pretty siloed. So nobody quite knew how deep the relationships were with other people. I mean, they didn't think they were monogamous, that's for sure. But they didn't know the degree to which they were siloed and how this guy was tomcatting around like he's in big love, going to all these different houses, taking walks or having sex. Taking walks and having sex is like, basically what this guy is doing.

[Narrator]

It all comes out. All the disgusting, manipulative stuff you've heard, the photographs, the brandings, the repeated exploitative sex acts. Among them are the accusations against Alison that she sent women to Keith to be sexually assaulted. Like the instance with Nicole, something Allison still has trouble coming to terms with.

[Alison Mack]

When you just said forced oral sex, I was like, who was ever who? You know, Like, I'm still putting those things into that frame, right?

[Vanessa Gregoriadis]

Yeah.

[Alison Mack]

Because at the time, in my head, it was like, it was an exercise, and it was like a radical exercise. When you said to me yesterday, like, did you recognize that it wasn't consent? And I was like, of course not. I'm still formulating that, understanding, that perception.

[Vanessa Gregoriadis]

Two of the most moving things were. There was a letter that was. Introduced him to the court, that was from Allison to Danny Padilla and Keith. And in this letter, Allison is saying that they had a threesome, and she's thanking them for, you know, the opportunity of growth, of having this sexual experience. And you read that letter and you just think, oh, my gosh, she really took this all seriously. It's just simply saying, you know, master, thank you. Thank you for this amazing experience of being able to open myself to enlightenment through this threesome. Which, at this point, you know, everybody in the courthouse knows that, you know, this is this twisted Don Juan. You know, everybody knows that there's. There's no growth.

[Alison Mack (defensive statements)]

And then cut to, like, now, you know, people assume that I'm, like, this.

[Vanessa Gregoriadis]

Pervert.

[Alison Mack (defensive statements)]

And I'm like, okay, like, at a certain point, you just stop defending yourself. Cause it's like, that's not the story. It's like, that's not what happened. That's not what it was for me. But I can see how you think that. So, okay, just take it. So, part of the reason why I want to do the podcast, because I feel like I owe it to myself to, like, at least have the opportunity to say on my own behalf, like, what it actually was. And people can believe me or people can think I'm full of shit or whatever. People cannot listen, like, whatever. But I feel like I at least have to say it out loud for myself, like, once, you know.

[Narrator]

During the trial, one More pivotal piece of tape is made public.

[Vanessa Gregoriadis]

It was the tape recording of a walk that Allison and Keith took.

[Narrator]

Keith and Allison, what's the date?

[Alison Mack]

The 10th. No, the 9th. January 9th, 6:59am Talking about Brandon and a walk.

[Vanessa Gregoriadis]

You know, you hear Alison say that she's turning on the recorder and the date and the time that they're taking this walk. And you can almost hear her just puppy dogging along, like, with her breath, quick as she's walking with him.

[Keith Ranieri]

So what would have been most meaningful, deep, surrendering, focusing for you?

[Alison Mack]

I think it probably having it whispered.

[Narrator]

In my ear and then me repeating it out loud.

[Keith Ranieri]

Well, ask the others. It's not all you.

[Vanessa Gregoriadis]

Uhhuh.

[Alison Mack (defensive statements)]

I thought you were asking me.

[Keith Ranieri]

No, I said all of you guys who've gone through it.

[Vanessa Gregoriadis]

Yes.

[Alison Mack]

Okay.

[Vanessa Gregoriadis]

And he's telling her how to do the branding ceremonies and the ways in which the women should be held down and that they should say, master, please brand me. It would be an honor. And she's like, okay, okay. And she's even getting negged by him. Like, whenever she tries to say something, he kind of makes it sound like, oh, well, that was just stupid what you said. What I'm saying his word of God.

[Keith Ranieri]

And the person should ask to be branded.

[Alison Mack (defensive statements)]

Okay.

[Keith Ranieri]

Should say, please brand me. It would be an honor or something like that. Not an honor I want to wear for the rest of my life. I don't know.

[Alison Mack]

Okay.

[Keith Ranieri]

And they should probably say that before they're held down so it doesn't seem like they're being coerced.

[Alison Mack]

Okay.

[Narrator]

The recording proves that the branding was not Alison's idea. It hits home that this was actually all Keith.

[Vanessa Gregoriadis]

And again, by that point, there was an understanding in the courthouse that Alison had really hurt people, but that she too was under his thumb in a really profound way.

[Narrator]

While the trial is going on, Alison is being grilled by federal prosecutors who are trying to get more information to bolster their case. But Alison is still so delusional, she's not operating in reality.

[Alison Mack]

I was like, I didn't tell anybody to have sex with Keith. I wasn't enlisting girls to have sex. Sex with Keith. I told them to seduce him. And they were like, seducing is sex. And I was like, no, it's not. Like, that's not what it is, because in my head, that's not what it was. Right. And.

[Vanessa Gregoriadis]

But.

[Alison Mack]

But then we looked up the definition of seduce, and it's like, to elicit sexual favors from someone. And I was like, fuck. You know, like well, there I go. To me, it meant flirting, being teasing, and to the point where you got naked and then you took a picture of you. It was that basic for me. And I remember having a conversation with my attorneys where I was like, I didn't tell anybody to, like, lay down and spread their legs for Keith. And my attorney was like, it seems like you did, you know? And I'm like, but that's not what I did. And they were like, you explicitly told girls to go seduce Keith. And I was like, but I. But I meant just flirt with him until the point where you had to be naked and he would take a picture of you. And he's like, how is that any different? You know, and. Because it's different. It was different in my head.

[Narrator]

And of course, Keith lied to Alison. He told her he wasn't sleeping with certain women when he really was, which Allison learned about during the trial.

[Alison Mack]

There was a point when the prosecutors were asking me questions. So I'm sitting in a room with these two women who are assuming that I am the worst of the worst version of Jaleel Maxwell. All you can imagine. And I'm me going like, I was just trying to bring them through a sexually therapeutic process that I went through. And I was trying to please everybody. And I was. And they're like, we don't believe you. We don't believe you. We don't believe you. And I broke down. I, like, lost it. Had like, a break in my head where I was just like, lost it. And they stepped out of the room and I looked at my attorney and I just said, like, tell me what they want me to say because I just need this to stop. I don't know what's true. I don't know what's true. I thought I knew what was true. Clearly I was wrong. They want me to say something that I don't think is true. But they're not gonna stop until I tell them what they want me to say. So please tell me what that is so that we can make this top. Cuz at this point, I just don't know what is real, you know? And my attorney was like, I can't do that. I can't tell you what to say. That's not ethical. I can't do that. And I was like, well, then we're like, you know.

[Vanessa Gregoriadis]

But at this point, the defense is starting to come apart. Lauren's mom, Nancy, who people think had started to have some doubts, who was furious that all of this branding and this secret society was going on under her nose and kept a secret from her. And she's supposed to be number two in the organization. And then we started to get the word that Lauren might be in talks. And then the question was, what's going to happen with Allison? Is she going to to flip?

[Narrator]

Vanessa is in court one day when the prosecution's star witness is called to testify.

[Vanessa Gregoriadis]

So a bunch of people had already testified, and then the prosecutors put Lauren on the stand.

[Narrator]

Lauren Salzman is the only named defendant who takes the stand to testify against Keith Ranieri. She gets up there, her dark hair framing her face, and starts to answer questions from the defense.

[Vanessa Gregoriadis]

So the judge at this point has heard a lot. He's fully wrapped his head around what's going on. And a lot of the questioning of Lauren was about how she had been just really in her late teen, early 20s years when she got wrapped up in NXIVM through her mom. And there was this idea that maybe she wasn't really able to make that choice herself. She was too young. And her mom sort of influenced her, and Keith influenced her, and Keith and she were having an affair for many, many, many years. And the portion of her testimony that seemed to really get the judge upset was that she had really wanted a baby and that Keith kept stringing her along, saying that they were gonna have a family together, and that never happened. And so Mark Agnifolo, Keith's attorney, takes over, and he's trying to establish that she's not somebody to be taken seriously.

[Narrator]

Lauren remembers this.

[Lauren Salzman]

Keith's attorney was doing a cross examination, as they do. Keith was sending post it notes through the other attorney to get him to ask me if I was still in love with Keith while I was on the stand and I was having a complete fucking breakdown.

[Narrator]

That's right. Lauren alleges that while she was on the stand, Keith was sending post it notes to his attorneys, instructing them to ask Lauren if she was still, still in love with him.

[Lauren Salzman]

They were trying to get me in my cross examination to perjure myself. And Keith kept sending post its to ask if I love him, if I still love him. And they were trying to get me to say that I was the one that left the relationship. He's the one who was still there upholding his commitment, not because of what he did. They're like, what's the mission of the organization? I said, to raise the ethics of the world. And he's like, and that's all over now, isn't it? And I was like, no, I'm here trying to Be ethical by telling the fucking truth. And he's like, well, what were you doing when you were in Dawes? I was like, I was trying to get Keith to fucking love me. That's what I was doing. That's what I was doing. I was trying to convince myself that somehow this farce of a situation that I told myself could be my life was going to still fucking come true. And that's crazy. And it's not happening, and it's not true.

[Narrator]

Lauren breaks down on the stand.

[Vanessa Gregoriadis]

All of a sudden, the judge stops Mark and says something like, that's it. I'm cutting this off. You're not going to do this to this person. I've heard enough. And says to Lauren, you're dismissed. This debate started between Mark Agnifolo, Keith's attorney, and the judge. And Mark Agnifolo said, you can't do that. I was questioning a witness. You can't just stop that. And she's like, I don't care. I care more about Lauren and her sanity getting through this, Ben. I care about you asking these nonsensical questions, and I don't want to hear it. And so for a minute, people were like, well, maybe there's going to be a mistrial, because I'm not even sure you're really allowed to do that. But of course, the trial continued.

[Narrator]

These women have done terrible things, but they are also so broken themselves. And Allison is in so deep, she does not know which way is up. It's like she's been picked up by a wave and tumbled over and over, held underwater, gasping for breath. But through the depths of Lauren's words ring in her ears. Allison decides to plead guilty.

[Alison Mack]

I don't understand this, and I don't know how this is true, but I'm gonna plead guilty because I am guilty. I do believe that that's true. And I'm gonna trust that I'll be in therapy for years after this and figure out how this happened and how this is true and how to reconcile with that.

[Narrator]

Alison pleads guilty to the racketeering charges. So does Lauren Salzman. Alison begins proffering, cooperating with the government to try to get a deal for less jail time. She flips so far into the process that she's proffering while the trial is going on. But is it too late? Will Allison manage to save herself and avoid a prison sentence? And will anyone believe she's actually changed her mind?

[Alison Mack]

I've pled guilty. I was wrong. We were wrong, okay? I need help. Like how the fuck do I? I don't. I'm drowning.

[Lauren Salzman]

I saw how people could go crazy and not come back. I saw it like I saw the choice for myself.

[Mindy Mac]

So I walked as far as I could walk. And she walked. And then she turned around and waved to me.

[Narrator]

Tune in next week for an all new episode of Alison after nxivm. Or you can listen ahead to the full series now by subscribing to CBC True Crime Premium on Apple Podcasts or by subscribing to the CBC True crime channel on YouTube. Links in the show description you've been listening to Uncover Alison after nxivm from CBC and Campside Media. It's hosted by me, Natalie Robomed. Our executive producers are myself and Vanessa Gregoriadis at Campside and Stephen Belper. Our senior producer is Lily Houston Smith and our associate producer is Emma Siminoff. Sound design, mix and Engineering by Mark McAdam and E. Win Lai Trimuin. Thank you to Colin Campbell at CBC, our story editor is Derek John and our senior producer is Kate Evans. Our coordinating producer is Emily Kinnell. Our executive producers are Cecil Fernandez and Chris Oak. Tonya Springer is the Senior manager. Arif Nurani is the director. If you enjoyed Alison after nxivm, please rate and review the show wherever you get your podcasts.

[Alison Mack]

Thanks for listening.

[Narrator]

For more cbc podcasts, go to cbc ca podcasts.