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- [00:00]
Podcast Host
You're listening to an iHeart podcast.
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Lowe's Advertiser
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- [00:35]
Ryan Seacrest
Hey, it's Ryan Seacrest for Albertsons and Safeway this spring. Refresh your spring personal care Items and earn 4 times points on all your favorites when you shop in store or online. Earn 4 times points when you shop for items like pantene shampoo, Gillette Fusion 5 razors, secret body spray, always pads, loves diapers, Pepto Bismol, and Nervive Nerve Relief Cream. Then use your rewards for discounts on groceries or gas. Offer ends May 20th. Restrictions apply. Promotions may vary. Visit albertsons or safeway.com for more details.
- [01:06]
Podcast Host
At California Psychics, we know that sometimes you can wake up thinking.
- [01:11]
Noah Satterstrom
I don't know if I'm in the right career.
- [01:14]
Mary Jane Hornsby
Ew or the right relationship.
- [01:17]
Podcast Host
But whatever your life dilemma, at California Psychics, we'll give you the guidance you need to feel certain about your life choices. And because we only connect you with the very best, we guarantee if your reading isn't life changing, it's free. California psychics. Call 1-800-PREDICT today and get 20 minutes for just $20.
- [01:37]
Amica Insurance Representative
Every day, our world gets a little more connected, but a little further apart. But then there are moments that remind us to be more human.
- [01:50]
Mary Jane Hornsby
Thank you for calling Amica Insurance. Hey, I was just in an accident.
- [01:54]
Lowe's Advertiser
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- [01:55]
Amica Insurance Representative
At Amica, we understand that looking out for each other isn't new or groundbreaking. It's human. AM empathy is our best policy Today.
- [02:07]
Larison Campbell
We're dropping a bonus episode of Under Yazu Clay. The response to this series has been overwhelming. So as a way of saying thank you to all our listeners, we wanted to check back in with some of the people we interviewed back in April of 2024 to see how the last year has treated them. One of those is descendant Noah Satterstrom, the artist who told his great grandfather's story in 183 different canvases. As it happens, Noah was the sort of entry point for this whole series. Back in 2023, I met up with Betsy Bradley, the director of the Mississippi Museum of Art. I'd just released a podcast that was about a skeleton in my own family's closet, so to speak. And she wanted to know if I'd be interested in talking to Noah. I was. I'd heard about the old asylum. I knew that thousands of unmarked graves had been discovered on its grounds and that the University of Mississippi Medical center was at a crossroads for how to deal with them. In the words of the Southern scholar Mab Sest, it had that Southern Gothic aura. I was instantly fascinated. But as Noah and I started talking, I realized that what grabbed me the most about his story weren't the details of Dr. Smith's life and this mysterious old asylum. It was Noah. And how 100 years after Dr. Smith entered the old asylum, that trauma continued to shape Noah and his family. As we met with other descendants, I saw the same thing. Relatives they'd never met and in some cases, like Wayne Lee, knew almost nothing about, were still present, telling them how to interact with the world, how to view themselves. But I also saw something else. A certain catharsis that comes with finally looking straight at that big thing that everyone had tried to hide. We talked to Noah in April about what happens when, as he originally put it, the genie is let out of the bottle. How the reception to his exhibition last year has changed how he thinks about his great grandfather, but also his own struggles with mental health. Oh, and in the meantime, Noah's also come across even more of his great grandfather's medical records, records that show it wasn't just Noah trying to uncover the truth. I'm Larison Campbell, and this is under Yazoo Clay. You mentioned your. It talks about your family's contact with him.
- [04:54]
Noah Satterstrom
Yeah. So my grandmother Margaret never spoke of him. She was the oldest, and then she had two younger sisters and the youngest brother. It's said that the youngest brother had gone to him as he was being shipped off to World War II and sat down with him and was told not to come back and that he wanted everybody to consider him dead and that he told Ethel, his wife, that no one should come see him. That was in the 40s, and there was no contact beyond that. Yet here's a letter from my grandmother's younger sister, Mary Jane, who I loved. She. She died in the 80s, I think, but she was a good, like, sitting at the table, smoking cigarettes and gossiping, sort of, you know, great aunt. And so she is writing here to the director of social services at Whitfield in, like, 1967. Dear Ms. Juice, here's the. The social services woman. Can you help me? 42 years ago, my father, Dr. David Lawson Smith, was committed to the asylum. Through the years, when I would wonder about him, my family said it would be upsetting to him and to me to try to see him. When I married, my husband said the same thing. But I have reached the age when I must know whether or not he is still alive. If he is no longer living, is it possible to find out where he would be? If he is still living, is there anything I could do to make life more comfortable for him? I know nothing of the type or degree of insanity that my father has. I don't know whether it could be inherited. In fact, I know nothing of my father except that he is there and that my mother loved him. But I have been filled with many questions for many years. I would very much appreciate it if you can help me with some of the answers. Sincerely yours, Mary Jane Hornsby.
- [07:02]
Larison Campbell
That's a wonderful letter. It's heartbreaking, and it tells you so much.
- [07:09]
Noah Satterstrom
Yeah, it tells you so much. You know, she had no information. She didn't know why he was there. People only said it would be upsetting for him and you if you tried to figure this out. And so that's what I inherited. So the director of Social services wrote her immediately back. And so this is in 1967 that they were writing. Dear Mrs. Hornsby, Mr. David L. Smith was admitted to this hospital on January 28, 1925, and lived here until he died on March 7, 1965. So he had died two years before that. That letter was sent. His correspondent was given as Mrs. Minnie Jane Smith, Vicksburg, Mississippi. And when he died, we tried to contact her that was his mother, and were told that she was in a nursing home in New Orleans. Since we were unable to contact any relative, no one was notified of his death, and he was buried here at the hospital. For many years he lived on Cottage five, which we called the RE Educational Building. He got along fine there and worked in the OT Print shop regularly and according to his record, did excellent work and was excellent physical cond. I'm sure that one does wonder about one's parents, and it is difficult to know what to do in instances like this. Many attitudes have changed, but I think your family's attitude is certainly one that is true in most families at the time in which your father was here. If I can be of any further help to you at any time, please let me hear from you.
- [08:47]
Larison Campbell
What a way to put that. It's very gentle, but it's also saying that's.
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Noah Satterstrom
That's how it is.
- [08:52]
Larison Campbell
Perhaps an old fashioned attitude.
- [08:54]
Noah Satterstrom
Yeah, but that's how it is. It was, it was, it was very reassuring. And so we've always wondered like how my mother didn't know, they didn't know that he had died until two years after he had died. So it's not that they just got a letter from the asylum saying that he had just died or from Whitfield saying that he died. They got a letter in response to Mary Janes and there was also another letter that I can actually just paraphrase. But their younger sister Helen also wrote to Whitfield, to the medical records office, but her letter was completely different and said, I know that my father was there, I don't have his birth or his death date and I want to join the Revolutionary Dames Club or something. And they, they require, you know, proof of his, his birth and death. Can you just provide that for me? And that was the only time she ever reached out, as far as I know. Grandmother never reached out. But I could be wrong about that.
- [10:03]
Larison Campbell
You know, with your own story, obviously that I think resonated with a lot of people because it really was one of the few contemporary accounts of like mental illness and issues like with mental health that we had in the whole show.
- [10:19]
Noah Satterstrom
Right.
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Larison Campbell
And so like when it comes to your story and putting that out there, have you found yourself having more conversations about it since then?
- [10:32]
Noah Satterstrom
Yeah, I mean, comes up. I wouldn't say regularly, but when it comes up it's like the door is open. It's been so. It's been so strange, you know, this, this story, it started so apparently suddenly and eclipsed everything for me. You know, like the year before I finished this project, I had already been working on the project for eight years or something and I did. Still didn't think that it was about me in any kind of a way or it didn't occur to me that my experience of mental disorder could be funding this entire obsession with my, the mental illness of my great grandfather. Which seems like a very dense kind of blind spot in retrospect, but, you know, it's, it's amazing what the brain can do, do to like guard ourselves against ourselves if we feel like we have to, I guess. So at the very beginning I was living in Glasgow in like 2000, 2001. I was in a marriage that was falling apart. I was broke, living in a, literally one room, a basement flat with bars on the window in Glasgow. Pretty depressing. And I was painting for like 12 hours a day. And I thought in my, you know, I was in grad school and I thought I was just being very focused. But when life started to kind of crumble around me and I was painting 12 hours a day and not taking care of myself, it was a very short step from painting all day to just walking around Glasgow all day. And I found myself just completely lost and walking around, smoking cigarettes up alleys, down streets all day long. I was walking down an alley in Glasgow and it was. It was late one night, and I remember there being an open door and hearing a bunch of voices inside and me just walking into this place. And it turned out to be like a. A Pentecostal congregation in there. And I just went in and sat down and they were doing some sort of like vocal chanting where it was just like. It was like their voices were just like flowing down like this waterfall of voices. And then I remember leaving and going back to my flat and going to sleep and then waking up a couple hours later in the midst of what I now know to be a depersonalization. I woke up into it and it was a nightmare. I felt like it was revealed to me. The truth was that I didn't exist and that all of my memories, even though I remembered them, they weren't grounded in any reality. It was just like Wild west movie set storefronts, you know, like I could keep up with conversations about things that had happened, but they weren't actually connected to real life events. It didn't matter that that didn't make sense. My version of it, what my brain was telling me was absolute truth. And it was just a matter of time, in my view, until people, other people realized it and I would be institutionalized. And that was the only way through that I could come up with. I didn't feel suicidal. There was no way to end it. If I had known. When I started to have symptoms of delusions, this sudden onset of dissociation, depersonalization can be like a hallmark of schizophrenia. And I was exactly the right age for onset of schizophrenia. I was like 24, 26 or whatever. And certainly if I had known that history, there would have been a lot more, you know, testing done to make sure that it wasn't. That's not what we were looking at. But my fear of institutionalization was really great and has always been, though I guess not really anymore. You know, this whole process has kind of like lifted all that. It was just a very bizarre. A very bizarre time. It was a time out of time. And it's not like it just ended, you know, it didn't end. It Never ended it just. That was maybe the time of the most concentrated dissociative episode. I didn't know how I was supposed to walk. I didn't know what the cadence of my voice was supposed to be. I hardly recognized myself in the mirror. I mean, it was. There was nowhere for my thoughts to go because nothing that I thought of were trustworthy to me, and my memories weren't trustworthy. It's like you wake up from a nightmare and somebody's like, well, what's it about? And you're like, there was this rug, but. And it doesn't sound frightening, but it was just deeply terrifying. Depersonalization is a really strange thing because there are no real outward manifestations of it. I still had the person that I presented to the world, but on the inside there was nothing. Which is just. It's chilling. There was nothing at all. I kind of decided that maybe it doesn't matter if my memories are real, you know, what difference does it make, you know, if I'm real or not? Maybe that's the case for everyone. And I just kind of wake up the next day and, you know, keep pretending that my memories are real. And then I just did that for years and tried to not think about it. But in trying to not think about it, I also never spoke about it. I didn't even think about it to myself. Not because I was ashamed of it, but because I was afraid of it, you know. And then I think about the letters that, that. The letter that. That Mary Jane wrote to Whitfield. Increasingly, it feels like all of Dr. Smith's family wasn't. It's not. They were ashamed he was in there, but they were afraid. You know, they were afraid of what would happen if they made contact with him. They. They were afraid for him and for them. And they were afraid that they had it. Whatever it was. They were afraid of all of it. And when I was, I had finally kind of cleared the dangerous part of the dissociative episode. The only way I could move on in life was to pretend that it hadn't happened and pretend that my memories were real, pretend that I had an identity, pretend that my life existed. And so I did. That's what I did years after that is when I was staying at my folks place and they had all of our family photograph albums. And that's when I started painting from the family snapshots of my own childhood. Now as I'm looking and thinking and painting and looking and thinking and painting the photographs from my own childhood, I could feel the know, heat of the seat belt clicking. I could feel the smell, the magnolias or whatever. Like it was a sensory thing. And, and in that way, my memories started to fill back out within myself and I started to not only remember things but, but, but know that those memories were rooted in actual lived experience. And so I, I painted hundreds of those. And that pulled me out of it. I mean, that was me pulling, pulling a rope to get back out of that pit, you know, there I'm my own suffering, my experience of suffering, and I'm painting Dr. Smith's suffering and my families and it, and letting it all out, you know, instead of trying to keep it all suppressed and in myself and. And you find that maybe it's not really suffering, it's just how, you know, complex it is to be alive. I mean, everybody's complicated, you know, And I wound up with a lot more compassion for Dr. Smith and for his doctors and for Ethel and her children and her parents and myself.
- [20:11]
Larison Campbell
We also spoke with Kimberly Jackson. Kimberly's great grandmother, Zinni, you'll remember, died in the asylum. And one of the things I found so touching about her story was Zinni's family's commitment to making sure she wasn't forgotten. And that's continued. In fact, just the weekend before we spoke, Kimberly was with her cousins hearing even more about Zinni.
- [20:34]
Lowe's Advertiser
So actually my family, part of my family, got together this past Saturday. One of my cousins said that she was told that my great grandmother may have suffered from postpartum depression. So each brother seems to have had their own story, you know, so to speak, about what happened. She had four children, three boys and a girl. My grandmother was. The girl was a daughter. So she had her though. She had her though kind of, I guess the people would say late, but because there was six years in between her and her youngest brother. So possibly, possibly she had postpartum. And then by the time my grandmother came along, you know, it just progressively got worse after each pregnancy. So that's what my cousin told me. And it doesn't sound too far off, honestly, too far fetched either, that that could have possibly happened to her.
- [21:46]
Larison Campbell
So who all have you shared the information about Zinni with?
- [21:51]
Lowe's Advertiser
Everybody as far as in my family, except for those two who were really close, because those would have been her. That's what her niece and nephew were. Great niece and nephew, actually. So aside from those two. Yeah. All the cousins I've grown up with. Yeah, everybody knows.
- [22:12]
Larison Campbell
What have people's reactions been like? Sort of the range of reactions that you've gotten.
- [22:17]
Lowe's Advertiser
So initially it was like, what really, you know, you found her where? You know, because nobody knew where she was. This is the mystery that was. Zinnia has really opened up. Like, we are ecstatic. We didn't know what happened to her. We didn't. We had no idea where she was. You know, we kind of knew, but we didn't really know this was at ummc. Do you know how many of us have actually had to go to UMMC for appointments? I've even been there. I was a patient there. Had no idea. So, yeah, this has been great. I mean, I hate what happened to her, but I'm glad we found her.
- [23:00]
Larison Campbell
That's really incredible. I love that. And I love this idea that the whole family is ecstatic because it really feels like. And you had talked about this before when we spoke, but this idea that, like, she really was still a huge part of.
- [23:14]
Wayne Lee
Part.
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Larison Campbell
Her presence was a part of your family still.
- [23:18]
Lowe's Advertiser
We never forgot her. Of course, Grandma Elvia, which is my grandmother's stepmother, played a huge role in our family. She really stepped in and was a true mother. Grandmother to my grandma, her siblings, my mother, her siblings, her cousins. She really was that person. She did get to meet a few great grands, you know, which was awesome, but she really did. But we never. My grandmother wouldn't let us forget who Zinnia was. Her siblings never let them forget who she was. We all knew who she was and what she meant to them. There was just this huge question mark.
- [24:04]
Larison Campbell
So have you thought any further about what you want to do with all this new family knowledge that you have or what your family is going to do with this new information about Zinni?
- [24:18]
Lowe's Advertiser
As of right now, we haven't really talked about what to do with the. With the information, however, I know just want people to be helped and just want people to know that the. If something is going on with your.
- [24:33]
Wayne Lee
Loved one.
- [24:36]
Lowe's Advertiser
Just try to persevere and get them to help the best way that you can. Considering that's what my great grandfather did in the 1920s, I just don't want anybody to stop. And there are some. There are a lot of roadblocks in getting your people help. And then sometimes you can get your people help and then they don't want to stick with the, you know, with the program or with the prescription or with, you know, it's just a lot. I just don't want people to give up. Just pray and keep going and reach out. If there are resources, reach out for those Resources ask for help because more than likely somebody's going to help you if they can. But also, don't take care of yourself as well, because it's a journey. It's important as we are taking care of our loved ones that we also take care of ourselves. That's the main thing I think about. My great grandfather then had to come home and look after four kids with the help of community because at first, you know, like I said, he was still married to her and he did not remarry until My grandmother was 10 or 11, if I'm not mistaken. 11. So, you know, he. He raised his kids with the help of family and community. That's what I hope that people have family and community as they are on this journey. If not family by blood, then family by mud. Just community. I just hope that they have someone to help. I really do.
- [26:21]
Larison Campbell
I've never heard that expression before, but I love that.
- [26:28]
Lowe's Advertiser
You know, families are not necessarily, you know, your blood relatives. It would be awesome, though, I guess, to put it on paper so that it could be widely shared. I don't know how much more could be shared than what is shared now. But, you know, I just don't want it to be lost. And I'm going to her reunion, actually, her family reunion is going to be this summer in June. And maybe I can find anybody else that has some info, especially the brother who told my great grandfather, when are you bringing home? His family's gonna be there. So I'm hoping maybe they can give me some info that maybe he shared with them or maybe that was passed down to them. We'll see. But anyway, I'm going. I'm looking forward to it. I'm wanting to go and share whatever I can with them about what happened with Zinnia, just so that they'll know and she'll just be a of, you know, family lore, so to speak. She may already be, and I just don't know it, but I just want to share that, that, hey, she has been found. What we're going to do next, I don't know, but hopefully it'll help somebody. If it has assisted anyone, encouraged anyone to, hey, try to find what happened to your lost loved ones, relatives. Because, you know, some people are just lost out here. You know, some people are missing and they don't have a clue. If, if nothing else, I'm hoping that that even gives them hope that your people will come home. You will find out what happened to them. Get them, get, get some, get your people the help, son, daughter, uncle brother, sister, the help that they need mom or dad, the help that they need with their mental health issues. Just whatever. I just hope someone has been encouraged.
- [28:28]
Larison Campbell
The largest art museum in the state, the Mississippi Museum of Art connects Mississippi to the world and the power of art to the power of community. Located in downtown Jackson, the museum's permanent collection is free to the public. National and international exhibitions rotate throughout the year, allowing visitors to experience works from around the world. The gardens and expansive lawn at the Mississippi Museum of Art are home to art installations and a variety of events for all ages. Plan your Visit today@msmuseumart.org that's msmuseumart.org hey.
- [29:05]
Ryan Seacrest
It'S Ryan Seacrest for Albertsons and Safeway this spring. Take care of your entire home, including the air you breathe, and save $5. While when you buy $25 worth of participating products in store or online, shop for items like Glade Plugins, Airwick Plugins, Glade Auto Sprays, Airwick Diffusers and Glade refills. And save $5 when you spend $25 on participating products. Offer ends May 20th. Restrictions apply. Promotions may vary. Visit albertsons or safeway.com for more details.
- [29:33]
Podcast Host
At California Psychics, we know some people can't read the career warning signs like your boss still not knowing your name.
- [29:40]
Larison Campbell
You, Tina, Lisa, Sheila, whatever.
- [29:43]
Mary Jane Hornsby
Get that report to me by lunch, okay? It's Carrie, ma' am. Just get it done.
- [29:47]
Podcast Host
Terry so talk to California Psychics and receive the career guidance you need. We only connect you with the very best, so guarantee if your reading isn't life changing, it's free. California psychics. Visit CaliforniaPsychics. Visit CaliforniaPsychics.com today for limited time offers.
- [30:04]
Amica Insurance Representative
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- [30:34]
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- [31:30]
Larison Campbell
In the years since we first spoke with Lyda Gibson, she's moved on from working directly with the Asylum Hill project. She's now director of the Museum of Medical History at ummc. But you'd be hard pressed to find someone who knows more about the asylum than Lyda. And I was curious to hear where the descendant community stands now. So I think the thing that, you know, obviously the listeners of this, like, really responded to was, you know, the descendants themselves. So have you connected with more descendants since you and I, since we all last spoke?
- [32:09]
Mary Jane Hornsby
Well, we have connected with more descendants we have had, especially after Noah's show. It's been such a great way to tell people about this project a little more about the, about how complicated the stories are. And we're hoping we're spurring more discussions about, again, about mental health. Currently, sometimes it's easier to look at these stories through a historical lens instead of in our own neighborhoods right now as we're on our way to work. And so what we hope to do is really just get these conversations going in a more comfortable way about mental health and about treatment options 100 years ago and treatment options now. So, yes, it has spurred a lot more conversation about it. And I do run into people and they say, oh, what do you do? And of course, I'm director of the Museum of Medical History now. But I always mention that I'm also still involved with the Asylum Hill project and people have heard about it, whereas, you know, five years ago, people might have said, what are you talking about? So I do think we're getting a lot more exposure.
- [33:28]
Larison Campbell
That's really cool. How many descendants total do you think total come out of the. Yeah, like, just to date since Asylum Hill got up and running.
- [33:40]
Mary Jane Hornsby
So, as you know, and as I may have pointed out before, you know, many people who are interested in genealogy are older. So we have had some people who've just sort of disappeared. I did see the obituary for one of our key descendants a few weeks ago. Some. So we've had people who have sort of Dropped off the list or no longer active. And then we've had people added. But if we're looking at totals, I would say 225, probably. And our list is. Our active list is pretty well maintained at about 160 or so.
- [34:19]
Larison Campbell
That's incredible. That is a ton of stories.
- [34:23]
Mary Jane Hornsby
Oh, it's so many stories. And so the. The other thing, I mean, we're almost. We're up to almost. Jennifer and her crew are up to almost 700 exhumations. The weather this. This fall and spring has been problematic. It's. You know, it has. You know, when it rains, it's one thing. If it rains a week, and then it's. It doesn't rain for another three weeks. It's. It's another challenge when it rains one day and then it dries out for two days, and then it rains again the third day. It's just. I mean, the rain has been difficult. But despite that, they have gotten a lot done. They have also found some things that are helping us really narrow the timeframe in certain parts of the cemetery, which will be very useful eventually in possibly identifying some of these remains, which will be really exciting.
- [35:20]
Larison Campbell
Can you tell us a little bit about the things that they found?
- [35:24]
Mary Jane Hornsby
Well, it's the thing that has helped them date the burials more than anything is the nails that have remained from the coffins. And then there have been a few burials that have had coins sort of stacked where a pocket might have been. And so, you know, in looking at those coins, we had to clean them up first. And Mississippi Department of Archives and History has been very gracious in helping them get those cleaned up so we could see what was on them. But those dates help us narrow as well. So when these things sort of coincide, then that's really good. There was a pair of shoes, and there's a scholar at Mississippi State who was able to help us narrow down the time frame that those shoes would have been made now. Now, that means they couldn't have been worn before that, but then they could have been. Who knows? They could have been worn for, you know, 50 years after that. So these little clues will eventually help us put together enough information in one spot to narrow things in the way that we would like to. Unfortunately, as you know, because of the azu clay, different parts of the cemetery have better preservation than other parts of the cemetery. So the remains in certain parts, the bones, the shoes, things like that, are in better shape in certain parts of the cemetery than others. Right now, they are in a spot where almost nothing is preserved. So that has been just a challenge and sort of, you know, discouraging for the crew, but they will get finished with that at some point and move to another section. And we hope that there will be more that remain in the burials when they move on to another spot.
- [37:25]
Larison Campbell
I mean, do you think somewhere in some archives they would have a cemetery planned? They would have had, you know, something like that?
- [37:33]
Mary Jane Hornsby
I don't know, and I am sure they probably did. But, you know, the records that remain, the patient records that remain are not even complete. And again, I keep hoping. I go to estate sales, I go to flea markets. And one and I always look in the boxes. They're just full of old papers. And I think, could this possibly be something from the old asylum?
- [38:00]
Larison Campbell
Have you ever had luck?
- [38:02]
Mary Jane Hornsby
No, not yet.
- [38:18]
Ryan Seacrest
Hey, it's Ryan Seacrest for Albertsons and Safeway. This spring. Take care of your entire home, including the air you breathe. And save $5 when you buy $25 worth of participating products in store or online. Shop for items like Glade plugins, Airwick plugins, Glade auto sprays, Airwick diffusers, and Glade refills. And save $5 when you spend $25 on participating products. Offer ends May 20th. Restrictions apply. Promotions may vary. Visit albertsons or safeway.com for more details.
- [38:46]
Podcast Host
At California Psychics, we know that sometimes you can wake up thinking.
- [38:52]
Noah Satterstrom
I don't know if I'm in the right career.
- [38:55]
Mary Jane Hornsby
Ew or the right relationship.
- [38:58]
Podcast Host
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Amica Insurance Representative
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- [39:48]
Javon
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Larison Campbell
Oh, wow, a real person.
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Noah Satterstrom
Yep.
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Javon
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Larison Campbell
Well, I've got a complicated project.
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Mary Jane Hornsby
I didn't realize you did that.
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Javon
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Larison Campbell
Wow. I mean, I always thought I needed a designer to come to my Home. But scheduling is always a nightmare.
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Mary Jane Hornsby
Hmm.
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Larison Campbell
I just might have to do more.
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Javon
Whatever you need. How about you tell me what you had in mind?
- [40:27]
Larison Campbell
Okay, then. So the first room we're looking at is for guests coming over.
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Mary Jane Hornsby
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- [40:49]
Larison Campbell
Have you been able to learn anything new about the old asylum since we last spoke?
- [40:54]
Mary Jane Hornsby
Wow.
- [40:55]
Noah Satterstrom
That.
- [40:55]
Mary Jane Hornsby
You know, I think I learn something new every day. I certainly learn something new from Jennifer every day. Because if they're not out in the field doing their archeological work, they're inside cleaning the remains and cleaning any other artifacts that were in the burials. This is not something new that I've learned, but this is another thing that I was. I sort of took part in with Dr. Mack and Dr. Didlake. There was a record somewhere that represented a concern among the asylum staff that a patient was going to be. That an overweight patient was not going to be able to be transported up to the cemetery in the coffins that they built. And part of the issue was that the coffins on the bottom didn't have a solid piece of wood. It was two pieces of wood that were sort of joined in the middle. And so you would think it would be pretty easy for anybody really to kind of fall through the bottom. So Jennifer decided to do an experiment. And Dr. Didlake, who, of course is a retired surgeon and director of the center for Bioethics and Medical Humanities here, is also a very good woodworker. And so he built a coffin that we believe was very similar to what would have been used at the asylum. And then we got bags of sand and poured them in. I say we. I was not doing the heavy lifting. I was just there taking pictures. And so they. We all put the sand in and got up to £250 and it did not break. Let me see if there's anything else. Golly. Oh, yes. Okay. There is something else.
- [42:47]
Lowe's Advertiser
So.
- [42:50]
Mary Jane Hornsby
A physician here in Mississippi who is also a medical historian in his own right, something he does in his spare time, donated a collection to us of various things he has bought or collected over the years having to do with medicine in Mississippi. And one of them was an etching of the old asylum from 1868. And it was an image I had never seen before. And we are incredibly grateful to have that. I mean, it's an original etching.
- [43:27]
Larison Campbell
That's really cool.
- [43:28]
Mary Jane Hornsby
It's very small.
- [43:31]
Larison Campbell
Can you see anything in there that you haven't been able to see any?
- [43:36]
Mary Jane Hornsby
You know, I think the thing that surprised me is that all of the images that we have of the old asylum show it after things were added to it, especially in the front. So it had, you know, the wings on both sides. And this particular 1868 etching only has two wings, which, of course, the wings didn't get added until. The first wing didn't get added until 1872. So I've never seen that image like that. And it just sort of like. Of course that's logical. I should have been envisioning it that way in my head. But I just had. I just had always envisioned it as it was. When it closed down in 1935, I will mention this that might be interesting to y' all. Wayne. Wayne came and visited because we got to the spot where he believed that his grandfather was. And I won't go any further than that, but it was. It was a good visit. And we all left. He left very satisfied, as did we, about the resolution.
- [44:44]
Larison Campbell
Wait, what?
- [44:46]
Noah Satterstrom
You.
- [44:47]
Larison Campbell
What? You can't go any further, Lyna.
- [44:50]
Mary Jane Hornsby
I feel like it's Wayne's to tell.
- [44:56]
Larison Campbell
So obviously, we had to talk to Wayne Lee. When we spoke to him last, he already had his grandfather's medical records. What became of his grandfather within the walls of the asylum? It was no longer a mystery. But there was another part of the story that needed resolution. The location of his grandfather's grave. And Wayne, a grave dowser, believed he'd located it.
- [45:23]
Wayne Lee
About a month ago, I received a message from Dr. Jennifer Mack, the archaeologist, and she said that they were getting ready to do the excavating where my grandfather, where I had placed a cross about five years ago, where I felt like he was located. And I had told them that when they got to that point to call me, I would like to be there. And so I went, and I was very impressed with their professionalism. There were about 10 archaeologists working in the mud, laying on their bellies, on their knees. I mean, they really go through everything with, like, a fine tooth comb, brush. I was very impressed with them and very respectful to me. Well, it had been raining a lot, and so everything was muddy. You could barely walk. You could barely stand up. Everything the ground was uneven. I'll say this. The dousing that day. I did some dousing that day. But it just didn't seem right. It was very hard to even stand up. And when we got to the location, nothing seemed to be quite right. I can't explain why that is, but when after they, you know, spend all the time and the bodies are so decomposed, I mean, all you see mostly is a shadow of a body almost. It's. It's like you. You can see where a bone was, and if you reached in to try to pick it up, it would just kind of crumble, just like dirt. And they found some things. But the sad part was that they said that there was no DNA to be found, and so they couldn't guarantee that that was him. The one thing that didn't really match very well was in the location. The archaeologist said she really didn't think that he was in the right location, that he would have been buried there. They've kind of found certain things that kind of clued them in as to what year it might have been or what decade. So nothing seemed to be quite right. Like I said, I can't really explain that other than it just didn't seem quite right. Afterwards, I asked the archaeologist if she thought that was my grandfather. And what's your gut feeling? She said, I don't think it is. And my gut feeling was that too. And I do appreciate Dr. Mac's opinion and her gut feeling. In talking to her, she said, you know, the sad thing about her job, she said, I don't work with exacts. She said, a lot of times I don't have closure because I can always look back and say, well, it could have been this or it could have been that. But the other thing was that team was so dedicated. I was really impressed with, you know, they spent hours out there in the mud and, you know, just to find almost nothing. And so it's just kind of the end of that. I'm okay with it because I feel like I've done everything that I could do to. To show respect for my grandfather and all the others that were buried there. I wish that there had been better records kept, but, you know, I think they are doing everything they can right now to be professional and to handle things correctly. I've been asked, will you go back? Yes, I'm going to go back because I think it's going to take another six, seven, maybe 10 years to complete the project. And I just want to make sure that. That it's completed. One other thing that has happened in just the last few days, you know, my cousin Billy had saved one of the headstones from back in the 70s. And after talking to Billy and talking to Lyda and talking to Dr. Mack, he returned the headstones just a couple days ago. And so Billy won't have that at his home anymore. It'll be back at the hospital.
- [50:18]
Larison Campbell
How did he feel about that? Did you talk to him about it?
- [50:21]
Wayne Lee
Yeah, I talked to him. I had to persuade him to give up the headstone. You know, he's carried it around since the 70s, and he wanted to be sure that it was not going to be just dumped again, you know, so took a little persuading, but he gave it up and he felt good about it.
- [50:42]
Larison Campbell
You know, it's interesting the way you are talking, you know. Now, you were down there a few weeks ago when they got to the site where you thought your grandfather was. Now you've. Now you're going to go back and see Timothy o' Riordan and his. The headstones. New sort of place. I mean, are you really.
- [51:03]
Noah Satterstrom
Do you.
- [51:04]
Larison Campbell
Have you sort of become a part of this community?
- [51:09]
Wayne Lee
Well, I feel like. I feel like I'm almost family with Lyda and Dr. Mack. They're really good people. I was really impressed with them.
- [51:21]
Larison Campbell
This history has really become, you know, you said it was really your brother's mission that you took on, but it's really become a large part of your. Is that accurate to say that it's become a big part of your life?
- [51:34]
Wayne Lee
Yeah, it really has. And not just that, but the dousing in general. I'd heard about it, but didn't really know anything about it. It was all new to me. It was just so odd how it all came together that right before I. While I was, you know, trying to find my grandfather, and that's when I received the gift and started using it. But, you know, after they removed the cross and after they. And they said they had to remove it, I mean, it was there for about three or four years, but when they removed it, they were cutting trees down and they had heavy equipment coming in and moving dirt and stuff, so they transformed that whole hill. And after. After that, it just never seemed the same. When I would go back and do some dousing, it just never seemed the same. And so, I mean, they guarantee me that they put that they pinpointed exactly where I'd had the cross, and I believe that, but it never seemed quite the same. That was just because it had changed so much. They took out all the trees, the equipment would take off the top two to three feet of soil. And so they would have mounds, large mounds of soil. And they would have a stretch of land there that the top two to three feet had been removed. And most of the people were buried. I say four to five feet. And so that way, they only had to go down another foot or so before they got to the remains. But the landscape had changed so much, you couldn't just. You couldn't make heads or tails of it, dousing it. And I've told you guys this before. I wholeheartedly believe in it 100%. It works. I've done it over and over and over again where I have found people in cemeteries that I didn't know where they were. And so it's proven to me. But if I'm not concentrating, if for whatever reason, God doesn't want me to be able to. If he doesn't want it to work that day, then it doesn't work. And when I do doubt for people, I tell them that I said, if. If God wants it to work, then it'll work. If he doesn't, or if I'm not paying attention, if I'm not focused, then it doesn't. In that day, it just didn't seem. It just didn't seem right. But I'm okay. I'm okay with it, because it probably. No matter where he's buried in that field, if that was him or not him, there's no DNA because he's been buried for so long. And because of the Yazoo clay, there was very little of anything left.
- [54:53]
Larison Campbell
How are you feeling about things now?
- [54:57]
Wayne Lee
Well, I feel like. I feel like I've done everything I could do, but I do want to see them complete the project. And I'm glad that I did what I did with placing the cross there, because I think that drew attention to the project.
- [55:12]
Mary Jane Hornsby
And.
- [55:13]
Wayne Lee
And maybe there was one more thing that might have nudged them a little bit to keep going forward with this mission. That was my sole purpose for doing it, was to find him, but also to keep them moving forward. You know, I really wanted to find my grandfather. I really wanted to, if I had some remains, take them back to Kentucky and have the remains placed with his wife and his children. But, you know, I believe in God, and I believe in heaven, and I believe that's where he is. So he's already with them anyway, and he's with my brother. And so I guess what I was wanting to do with the remains, it's not that important to me now. I did everything I could do, and I don't feel like there's anything else I can do. And so I'm just satisfied with myself. And we just go on.
- [56:27]
Larison Campbell
About a week after I spoke to Wayne, he texted me a photo of him, himself and his cousin Bill Lee at the new site of Timothy O'Reardon's headstone. And he had something else to share. Another text, which I'll read here. We asked Dr. Mack if we could do an experiment in the lab where all the remains are located. Billy is also a dowser, and separately with her present, we asked if my grandfather was in the lab or if he's still buried at the cemetery. Without knowing the other's conclusion, we got the same answers. He's not in the lab and is still buried in the cemetery. Dr. Max said she'll let me know when she thinks she's in the area where the ones that were buried after 1900 are. I don't know why things are taking this turn of events, but it looks like it may not be over. Wayne's right, of course. If there's one thing this asylum and its patients have taught us, it's that as long as someone's listening, this story's never over. Under Yazoo Clay is executive produced by the Mississippi Museum of Art in partnership with Pod People. It's hosted by me, Larison Campbell, and written and produced by Rebecca Chassan and myself, with help from Angela Yeet and Amy Machado with editing and sound design by Morgan Foose and Erica Wong. And thanks to Blue Dot Sessions for music. Special thanks to Betsy Bradley at the Mississippi Museum of Art as well as Lyda Gibson at the center for Bioethics and Medical Humanities at the University of Mississippi Medical Center. Visit Jackson and Jay and Denie Stein.
- [58:22]
Ryan Seacrest
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- [58:53]
Podcast Host
At California Psychics we know some people can't read the career warning signs like your boss still not knowing your name.
- [58:59]
Larison Campbell
You, Tina, Lisa, Sheila, whatever.
- [59:02]
Mary Jane Hornsby
Get that report to me by lunch, okay? It's Carrie, ma' am. Just get it done, Terry.
- [59:07]
Podcast Host
So talk to California psychics and restore receive the career guidance you need. We only connect you with the very best, so guarantee if your reading isn't life changing, it's free. California psychics call 1-800-PREDICT today and get 20 minutes for just $20.
- [59:23]
Mary Jane Hornsby
Did you know women are more likely than men to develop dry eyes, which may be due to hormonal changes during the menstrual cycle or after menopause and.
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Larison Campbell
The use of oral contraceptives.
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Mary Jane Hornsby
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Larison Campbell
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Podcast Host
Use as often as needed.
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Mary Jane Hornsby
Find Refresh online or in the eyedrop aisle at all major retailers.
- [59:55]
Ryan Seacrest
Are you still quoting 30 year old movies? Have you said cool beans in the past 90 days? Do you think Discover isn't widely accepted? If this sounds like you, you're stuck in the past. Discover is accepted at 99% of places that take credit cards nationwide, and every time you make a purchase with your card, you automatically earn cash back. Welcome to the now it pays to Discover. Learn more@discover.com credit card Based on the February 2024 Nielsen report, you're listening to an iHeart podcast.