Introducing: Click Here | Citizen Lab is still chasing shadows

Summary

Understood: Who Broke the Internet? Episode Summary: "Introducing: Click Here | Citizen Lab is still chasing shadows" Release Date: July 15, 2025

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Introduction

In the episode titled "Introducing: Click Here | Citizen Lab is still chasing shadows," Understood: Who Broke the Internet? delves into the intricate world of digital surveillance and cybersecurity through the lens of Ron Deibert and his organization, Citizen Lab. Hosted by Dina Temple Rastan and featuring insights from Cory Doctorow, the episode uncovers the evolution of the internet from its optimistic beginnings to the complex, often perilous digital landscape of today.

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Ron Deibert’s Early Life and Inspirations

Ron Deibert’s journey to becoming a leading figure in internet security is both unconventional and inspiring. Growing up in a challenging neighborhood in Vancouver, Deibert was surrounded by individuals who veered towards organized crime or incarceration. His early life was marked by limited access to higher education resources, with the only book in his household being a Bible that remained unopened.

A pivotal moment in Deibert’s youth was watching the Watergate hearings, which ignited his awareness of power, corruption, and secrecy. At [04:00], Deibert reflects, “I witnessed bullying and intimidation firsthand growing up. I know what it's like. I don't like bullies. I especially don't like bullies getting away with things and hurting innocent people.” This early exposure to issues of accountability and transparency would later shape his mission at Citizen Lab.

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Founding Citizen Lab

Deibert’s academic pursuits initially led him to Soviet politics during the 1980s. However, a mentor redirected his focus towards the burgeoning field of telecommunications. This shift coincided with the fall of the Berlin Wall, a period that heightened Deibert’s interest in how technology could both empower and surveil societies.

At [09:29], Deibert shares his foundational idea: “This is a model that could be appropriated by citizens, by scientists, by even academics to watch what governments are doing and hold them accountable.” This concept birthed Citizen Lab, a research center dedicated to investigating how governments and corporations misuse technology to infringe on privacy and suppress dissent.

Securing a space for Citizen Lab was neither straightforward nor conventional. Deibert recounts how he "smuggled himself in" to a building under construction to establish a basement lab, aptly described as “their little hacker hothouse” at [10:19]. His first team member, Nart Villeneuve, exemplified the lab’s grassroots origins, being a self-taught hacker who was so passionate about his work that he often forgot to submit timesheets.

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Major Breakthroughs: Ghostnet and Pegasus

Ghostnet Discovery

One of Citizen Lab’s early and most significant achievements was the exposure of Ghostnet in 2009. This global cyber espionage network targeted entities across 103 countries, including ministries, diplomatic missions, and major corporations. Deibert recounts their astonishment upon discovering the extensive list of compromised systems: “We were looking over the shoulders of spies who were involved in a global cyber espionage campaign. And it was truly the first of its kind.” ([13:10]).

The Citizen Lab’s thorough investigation and subsequent report on Ghostnet attracted massive media attention, placing them under intense scrutiny and making them global figures in cybersecurity research.

Pegasus Spyware Exposure

Another landmark moment came in 2016 with the discovery of Pegasus, a highly sophisticated spyware developed by the Israeli company NSO Group. Pegasus could infiltrate smartphones without user interaction, granting attackers unprecedented access to personal data, including microphone and camera controls.

At [19:00], Deibert explains the gravity of the situation: “It can turn on the microphone, even when you're not using a phone call, just record what you're doing in the room. It can turn on your camera, it can record what's on your screen.” The Citizen Lab’s "Million Dollar Dissident" report not only exposed Pegasus but also highlighted its widespread misuse against activists, journalists, and dissidents globally.

This revelation had significant repercussions, culminating in Former President Joe Biden’s 2021 executive order to blacklist NSO Group, marking a rare instance where academic research directly influenced national policy. Deibert expressed his elation at this achievement: “Phenomenal. This is like the Holy Grail.” ([21:21]).

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Impact and Challenges

Citizen Lab’s groundbreaking work has established them as the foremost digital watchdog, constantly uncovering new threats and abuses in the digital realm. However, their success has not come without challenges. Deibert discusses the backlash from powerful governments, including China, Saudi Arabia, and others, who view Citizen Lab’s investigations as a direct threat to their clandestine operations.

At [16:43], Deibert speculates on the Canadian government's discomfort with their findings: “What we were doing presented a risk not just to whoever it was that we were publishing about. It had to do with the whole realm of cyber espionage as a whole and espionage generally, which all governments do.” The repercussions included diplomatic tensions and increased scrutiny, underscoring the risks inherent in exposing powerful actors.

Moreover, Deibert warns of a darker future, emphasizing that “We're in for a very dark period” ([23:02]). The persistent evolution of cyber threats and the sophistication of surveillance technologies present ongoing challenges that Citizen Lab strives to address.

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Citizen Lab’s Ongoing Mission and Future Prospects

Despite the mounting challenges, Citizen Lab remains steadfast in its mission to safeguard digital freedoms and hold perpetrators of cyber abuses accountable. Deibert acknowledges the escalating risks and the need for continued vigilance: “Our mission now, it takes on a new meaning in this current environment. We've got a lot of work to do.” ([23:13]).

Their latest efforts include developing advanced tools like Siphon, designed to detect and counteract cyber espionage activities. The lab continues to push the boundaries of cybersecurity research, advocating for greater transparency and accountability in the digital age.

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Conclusion

This episode of Understood: Who Broke the Internet? provides a comprehensive exploration of Ron Deibert’s pivotal role in exposing the dark underbelly of the internet. From the early days of Ghostnet to the revelation of Pegasus, Citizen Lab’s relentless pursuit of truth has not only disrupted cyber espionage networks but also influenced global cybersecurity policies. As the digital landscape continues to evolve, the work of Citizen Lab remains crucial in ensuring that the internet remains a space for freedom and democracy rather than surveillance and oppression.

For those eager to delve deeper into Ron Deibert’s journey and the impactful work of Citizen Lab, his new book Chasing Shadows comes highly recommended, with praise from renowned author Margaret Atwood as “essential reading.”

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Notable Quotes:

• Ron Deibert ([04:00]): "I witnessed bullying and intimidation firsthand growing up. I know what it's like. I don't like bullies. I especially don't like bullies getting away with things and hurting innocent people."

• Ron Deibert ([09:29]): "This is a model that could be appropriated by citizens, by scientists, by even academics to watch what governments are doing and hold them accountable."

• Ron Deibert ([21:21]): "Phenomenal. This is like the Holy Grail."

• Ron Deibert ([23:02]): "We're in for a very dark period."

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This detailed summary encapsulates the essence of the episode, highlighting the significant contributions of Ron Deibert and Citizen Lab in navigating and challenging the complexities of the modern internet.

Transcript

[Chris Houghton]

We're in the midst of the dog days of summer.

[Neel Kochsval]

And it's called that because during this period, Sirius the Dog Star rises with the sun in the morning, not because.

[Chris Houghton]

It feels like several dogs are breathing their humid breath on you all the time.

[Neel Kochsval]

Can you tell he's a cat person? Hello, I'm Neel Kochsval.

[Chris Houghton]

And I'm Chris Houghton.

[Neel Kochsval]

We're the co hosts of as It Happens. But throughout the summer, some of our wonderful colleagues will be hosting in our place.

[Chris Houghton]

We will still be bringing you conversations with people at the center of the day's major news stories here in Canada and throughout the world.

[Neel Kochsval]

You can listen to as It Happens where wherever you get your podcasts.

[Dina Temple Rastan]

This is a CBC podcast.

[Ron Deibert]

Hi everyone. Cory Doctorow here. I'm back in the Understood feed today because I want to share another tech podcast that I think you're really gonna like. It's called Click Here. And it's from our friends at Recorded Future News and prx. Click Here tells true stories about the people making and breaking our digital world. This episode is about some of my all time heroes, the team of digital sleuths from the Citizen Lab at the University of Toronto. Citizen Lab has spent more than two decades tracking how powerful players around the world are using technology to do something pretty terrible. Spying on the rest of us. Sound familiar? Citizen Lab has spent years protecting ordinary people from authoritarian dictators and the cyber arms dealers who make billions supplying them with spyware. And those cyber mercenaries, they have some close to home customers who are using those cyber weapons right in your own backyard. Host Dina Temple Rastan talked to Citizen Lab's founder, my friend Ron Deibert, about the digital world we wanted and the dark underbelly that came with it. Have a listen.

[Dina Temple Rastan]

It's hard to even talk about the Internet as if it's just one thing, because depending on when you first logged on, it can mean completely different things. For some, it's this.

[Ron Deibert]

The net began back in 1969. It was a tool of the Pentagon.

[Dina Temple Rastan]

For others, it's you've got mail or.

Pets.Com because pets can't drive.

And now of course, there's AI I.

[Ron Deibert]

Can speak in any language.

Sorry, I didn't quite get that.

[Dina Temple Rastan]

And one of the people on the front lines of this, a kind of Forrest Gump of the Internet, is a Canadian named Ron Deibert. Ron runs something called the Citizen Lab, and at its most basic level, it's a research center that investigates how governments, corporations and bad actors use technology to do very grim things, which is interesting because if you knew Ron as a kid, you wouldn't exactly think, hmm, future cybersecurity watchdog. Can you talk a little bit about growing up in Canada and your upbringing?

[Ron Deibert]

Sure. I don't get asked that question very often. I had an unlikely origin.

[Dina Temple Rastan]

His dad was a mechanic. His mom was a housewife.

[Ron Deibert]

I grew up in a hardscrabble part of Vancouver. Most of the people that I hung out with that I went to school with ended up either in some kind of organized crime or in jail.

[Dina Temple Rastan]

And as a kid, his idea of a good time was to break into churches and snack on the communion wafers in school, that wasn't really a priority.

[Ron Deibert]

There wasn't a lot of higher education in my family. We had one book in the household that was a Bible that was never opened.

[Dina Temple Rastan]

But they did have a television, multiple TVs, in fact. And Ron watched everything. But the one thing he watched that had a profound effect on him was this incredibly American thing, the Watergate hearings.

[Ron Deibert]

What did the president know and when.

[Dina Temple Rastan]

Did he know it? Looking back on it, he said it was his first glimpse into a world of power and corruption and secrecy, something that would come to define his life's work, because, in a sense, Ron actually was built to fight against those things.

[Ron Deibert]

I witnessed bullying and intimidation firsthand growing up. I know what it's like. I don't like bullies. I especially don't like bullies. Getting away with things and hurting innocent people.

[Dina Temple Rastan]

Eventually, Ron applied to university. He got in one of the only kids in his class who did.

[Ron Deibert]

And I just was blown away, reading philosophy, reading history. This whole world that was opened up to me.

[Dina Temple Rastan]

This was the 1980s, and Ron got interested in political science, specifically Soviet politics. And in a way that feels like something right out of Forrest Gump. Ron found himself in East Berlin just as the Wall came down. He returned to Canada, ready to dive deep into Soviet studies, prepared to earn his doctorate. But fate, or rather a mentor, had other plans.

[Ron Deibert]

And he very sagely said, look, the Cold War's over. There are not going to be a lot of jobs for Sovietologists, so you need to come up with something else to specialize in. And he said, you know, no one's looking at the way he phrased. It was the telecommunications revolution, and a light bulb just went off.

[Dina Temple Rastan]

A spark of clarity in epiphany. The kind of moment that changes your life. I'm Dina Temple Rasten, and this is Click Here. A podcast about all things cyber and intelligence. We tell true stories about the people making and breaking our Digital world and today, Ron Deibert and the birth of one of the most celebrated Internet watchdog groups in the world. And we look back at the digital world we were promised and the one we actually got.

[Ron Deibert]

You know, there have been great strides made in raising awareness about security risks and some amazing new tools to better communicate securely, like signal, but against all of that, honestly, it's like we're living in a Philip K. Dick novel.

[Dina Temple Rastan]

Stay with us. From Recorded Future News. I'm Dena Temple west and this is Click here. While Ron was getting his PhD, he started studying satellite imagery. It was the final days of the Cold War and the United nations started building a high tech global monitoring system to make sure that nations that said they had stopped testing nuclear weapons actually had stopped. Ron found himself with a sort of third row seat to this technology. He was studying it for his program, but in a subtle guy in the back of the room, slightly out of focus in group pictures kind of way.

[Ron Deibert]

I didn't have any security clearance, but people kind of got used to having me being around and I was privy to a lot of things I probably shouldn't have seen.

[Dina Temple Rastan]

Around the first, it was eye opening.

[Ron Deibert]

I got into this world and it really opened my eyes to this concept of technology being used to verify whether governments are keeping to their commitments or doing something bad.

[Dina Temple Rastan]

This was the early 90s. The Internet was still in the public imagination at least this boundless utopian space.

[Ron Deibert]

The enthusiasm around the Internet was very contagious, and I was caught up in it too. It was one story after another about all of these dramatic improvements in how we access information and communicate with each other. Something that was oriented towards more freedom, more democracy, more individual empowerment.

[Dina Temple Rastan]

The thinking then was governments couldn't possibly control something as expansive as the Internet, which meant that sooner or later the world would be awash in this free flow of information, this tidal wave of democratic ideas.

[Ron Deibert]

Serious people were talking about it in that way. It'll be impossible for authoritarian regimes to withstand this, you know, tsunami of information.

[Dina Temple Rastan]

But Ron, the kid who had grown up in East Vancouver, who had seen enough to make him skeptical of big promises, wasn't quite so sure. Yes, the Internet could be a force for good, but he had already seen up close how else it might be used. If governments were using technology to map entire countries from space, to track weapons, to spy on adversaries, then why wouldn't they use it to monitor their own people?

[Ron Deibert]

I thought governments are already doing things in the subterranean realm of telecommunications. There's no way that this is not going to happen around the Internet.

[Dina Temple Rastan]

And that's when he started thinking, hmm, if governments were using technology to watch people, why couldn't people use that same technology to watch them right back?

[Ron Deibert]

This is a model that could be appropriated by citizens, by scientists, by even academics to watch what governments are doing and hold them accountable.

[Dina Temple Rastan]

And just like that, the idea for the Citizen Lab was born.

[Ron Deibert]

Let's find out what's going on beneath the surface of the Internet. What's that citizens need to know about?

[Dina Temple Rastan]

By then, ron had his PhD. He was teaching at the University of Toronto. And as he went around campus, he started keeping an eye out for a place to set up his lab. Somewhere where he could go unnoticed.

[Ron Deibert]

So I identified a building that was under construction and I actually smuggled myself in while it was under construction and identified a small basement space, got the permission.

[Dina Temple Rastan]

A basement. It was, in his words, their little hacker hothouse. And his first hire, a fellow East Vancouver native named Nart Villeneuve, also a.

[Ron Deibert]

Bit of a street kid himself, had no computer science training, was a self.

[Dina Temple Rastan]

Taught hacker, a guy who loved computers so much, he didn't even consider this a job.

[Ron Deibert]

I found out from our payroll office that many months had gone by and he had not submitted his timesheet to get paid. He told me he couldn't actually believe that someone was paying him to do the work that he was doing, which he would have gladly done for free.

[Dina Temple Rastan]

Every day, Ron and Nart sat in that basement blasting heavy metal, hunting for malware. And it turns out Nart had this special gift all on his own. He'd figured out a way to connect to computers in China and browse the Internet as if he were inside the country without China knowing, something that we.

[Ron Deibert]

Do now routinely in the Citizen Lab. But it was the first time I had seen this presented. And what he was doing there was trying to crosscheck, you know, what web content is being blocked by China.

[Dina Temple Rastan]

And as they followed that digital trail, they suspected this was happening in other authoritarian regimes. So they started poking around in places like Saudi Arabia and Iran, because at the time, the Internet was, well, let's just say, far less secure than it is today.

[Ron Deibert]

People constructed things in such a way that if you knew where to look, you could find a lot.

[Dina Temple Rastan]

And then in 2008, Ron got a.

[Ron Deibert]

Call from a researcher, a person named.

[Dina Temple Rastan]

Greg Walton, who worked with activists and NGOs in Tibet. Greg explained that they'd been having these weird computer virus problems.

[Ron Deibert]

They were saying, we're being flooded with this stuff. Is this something we should be concerned about.

[Dina Temple Rastan]

Imran thought, well, yes. And then Greg mentioned something else.

[Ron Deibert]

Simultaneously. People in those communities were occasionally being arrested. And it seemed like authorities knew in advance things that they were planning and doing, suggesting that they were under surveillance.

[Dina Temple Rastan]

This time, Ron's team got on a plane. They flew to India, to the home of the Tibetan government in exile to look into this for themselves. And then, with the activist consent, we.

[Ron Deibert]

Effectively wiretapped their machines, and they took.

[Dina Temple Rastan]

All the data back to their lab. And what they found is that the Dalai Lama's aides were right to be worried his computer had been hacked. But what was even more surprising was that the hackers had made this huge mistake.

[Ron Deibert]

They had left a directory wide open, allowing us to see this very well organized spreadsheet that they maintained online of all of the victims that they had compromised.

[Dina Temple Rastan]

And when he says all the victims, he doesn't just mean the Dalai Lama's networks. The spreadsheet listed the IP addresses of some 1300 computers in 103 different countries.

[Ron Deibert]

Ministries of foreign affairs, diplomatic missions, ASEAN banks. We were looking over the shoulders of spies who were involved in a global cyber espionage campaign. And it was truly the first of its kind.

[Dina Temple Rastan]

The breadth and scale of the hacking program was unprecedented.

[Ron Deibert]

We just looked at each other like, what the hell? What do we do with this? This is unbelievable.

[Dina Temple Rastan]

So they did what researchers do. They named the hack, called it Ghostnet, and wrote a report about it. And then they just went back to work. Or at least they tried to.

[Ron Deibert]

Well, when the day of that report came out, journalists flooded to the university. There were trucks parked outside of the building. I remember walking up to the lab that morning, and I'm thinking as I'm walking, geez, I wonder what's going on here today?

[Neel Kochsval]

And it was you.

[Ron Deibert]

It was us.

Yeah.

We were the biggest story in the world that day.

[Dina Temple Rastan]

Their little basement lab was on the front page of the New York Times.

[Ron Deibert]

A lot of smart people said, wow, I had no idea that this could happen, that my computer, which I see as a window to the world, could also, in the very next minute, be looking back at me.

[Dina Temple Rastan]

For some, though, Citizen Lab was a little too effective. When we come back, it turns out that they weren't just making headlines, they were making enemies, too.

[Ron Deibert]

This is the same for any investigative journalist who antagonizes powerful people. There are going to be consequences. And maybe I didn't fully anticipate where that would come from.

[Dina Temple Rastan]

Stay with us.

Hey, we're the Adam Wild and Jack Show. You can find us wherever you get Your podcasts every Wednesday. And Jax, we talk about what?

Well, we're just two best pals talking about pop culture dating and also exposing.

[Neel Kochsval]

Each other's deepest, darkest secrets.

[Dina Temple Rastan]

And if you've ever been ghosted, we have a little segment called Left on Red where we call the person who ghosted you and say, hey, why'd you do that? And usually it leads to some pretty.

[Neel Kochsval]

Embarrassing and explosive things.

[Ron Deibert]

Yeah.

[Dina Temple Rastan]

Yeah. So check out the Adam Wild and Jack show, available every Wednesday, wherever you get your podcasts.

From. Recorded Future News. This is Click Here. I'm Dena Temple. Rest. In the back of his mind, Ron expected his work would make him enemies. These days, he can't step foot in China. And the Saudis and Jordanians and Mexicans aren't too happy with his team's research either. But he was surprised by the blowback. A little closer to home, but it.

[Ron Deibert]

Also seemed to antagonize the Canadian government.

[Dina Temple Rastan]

Why was that?

[Ron Deibert]

I can only speculate, and I've come to settle on. What we were doing presented a risk not just to whoever it was that we were publishing about. It had to do with the whole realm of cyber espionage as a whole and espionage generally, which all governments do.

[Dina Temple Rastan]

And governments, democratic or otherwise, would prefer that their, let's say, activities stay in the shadows. But what the Citizen Lab was doing was pulling back the curtain.

[Ron Deibert]

There's an immediate risk for the Canadian government. Oh, there's this small group in a basement in Toronto upsetting things by doing this, and this is going to cause us diplomatic blowback. I wasn't privy to that, but I'm sure they experienced it. In fact, I know the University of Toronto's president at the time told me he faced a lot of pushback from Chinese officials, which he resisted to his credit. But I'm sure the Canadian government experienced that as well. I'm sure that went through their mind. If we are to believe what diebert is saying, we might be next.

[Dina Temple Rastan]

Because espionage, the kind the Citizen Lab was exposing. All governments do it. And over the next few years, Ron and his crew seem to be finding a lot of it making headlines around the world.

[Ron Deibert]

How truly free is the Internet? Computer researchers in Canada have created what some say is. Is the most advanced tool yet in helping Internet users.

[Dina Temple Rastan]

Called Siphon, it's a software program that's.

[Ron Deibert]

Been created basement computer lab at the University of Toronto.

[Dina Temple Rastan]

The Citizen Lab would go on to expose hacking programs targeting dissidents, journalists, lawyers, teachers, governments, corporations, intelligence agencies. No one seemed to be off limits. The Citizen Lab had built A machine to watch governments and flag their abuse. And Ron seemed to find it nearly everywhere he looked. And over the years, the abuse he found got more insidious, more sophisticated. No more so than what he and his team uncovered in 2016. It started with a single suspicious text sent to an activist named Ahmed Mansoor in the United Arab Emirates.

[Ron Deibert]

He received a text message on his iPhone that contained a link that if he clicked on it would have activated a zero Day exploit.

[Dina Temple Rastan]

Zero Day exploit. A vulnerability not yet discovered by the people who made the software it takes advantage of. No patch yet, no defense, just an open door for hackers to slip into. Fortunately, Ahmed did what you're supposed to do when you get a fishy text or email. He called the Citizen Lab.

[Ron Deibert]

Instead of clicking on that, he shared it with Bill Marsak, the lead technical researcher in the Citizen Lab, who set up a system in the lab that allowed him to capture all of those ingredients, including Pegasus.

[Dina Temple Rastan]

Pegasus, a piece of spyware we've talked about before. Sold by an Israeli company called NSO Group. It wasn't just another piece of malware. This was something different. Eventually, it would be able to infect a phone without the user doing anything and then actually take control of.

[Ron Deibert]

Can turn on the microphone, even when you're not using a phone call, just record what you're doing in the room. It can turn on your camera, it can record what's on your screen.

[Dina Temple Rastan]

And all of this was legal. For years, Pegasus was marketed and sold to governments under the understanding that it would be deployed against criminals and terrorists. That was the pitch, but the reality was something else entirely.

[Ron Deibert]

And so that was August 2016. That was the first time we encountered it.

[Dina Temple Rastan]

You went out with a report about NSO a short time later?

[Ron Deibert]

Yes. The Million Dollar Dissident report was the first ever report on Pegasus. And for us, that was as big, if not more a deal than Ghostnet.

[Dina Temple Rastan]

People started bringing their phones to the Citizen Lab to get them checked for Spyware. And in 2021, it even got the attention of the White House. Former President Joe Biden announced that he was putting NSO Group on a federal blacklist. He signed an executive order to restrict the use of commercial spyware by the US and for Ron, this was the sort of thing that the Citizen Lab was supposed to help make happen.

[Ron Deibert]

All of those things that you hope would come out of your research were starting to happen, and I just couldn't believe that there were these outcomes. An executive order being put out there by President Biden on commercial spyware. Phenomenal. This is like the Holy Grail.

[Dina Temple Rastan]

But Ron wasn't punching the air for long. Now he has to deal with the Trump administration.

[Ron Deibert]

You know, there have been great strides made in raising awareness about security risks and people, you know, documenting Internet censorship and surveillance and cyber espionage. But the very mission that we set up for ourselves to act as a counterintelligence for civil society, I think that mission is now at the greatest risk that it's ever been in the last 23 years that we've been around. Keep in mind that they're very explicit about going after academic centers like the Citizen Lab. I could very well foresee aggressive litigation efforts coming at us and other groups to try to shut us down.

[Dina Temple Rastan]

But his concerns go beyond the Citizen Lab, beyond the United States. He's worried about the world.

[Ron Deibert]

All of the gains that we've made are almost certainly now at risk, but there will be ripple consequences as well throughout the world because of his behavior. It's going to open up the opportunity for oligarchs and dictators around the world to model themselves on that behavior.

[Dina Temple Rastan]

And the way Ron sees it, things are going to get worse before they get better.

[Ron Deibert]

We're in for a very dark period. So, you know, our mission now, it takes on a new meaning in this current environment. We've got a lot of work to do.

[Dina Temple Rastan]

Want to learn more about Ron Deibert and the Citizen Lab? Ron has written a new book called Chasing Shadows from Simon and Schuster. Author Margaret Atwood called it essential reading, and we agree. It tells not just Ron's story, but how the Citizen Lab became the world's foremost digital watchdog. We thank him for sharing it with us early because we couldn't put it down. This is Click Here.

[Ron Deibert]

You've been listening to an episode of the Click Here podcast from Recorded Future News and prx.

[Dina Temple Rastan]

For more CBC Podcasts, go to CBC CA Podcasts.