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Undo – How history's outliers got stuff done
“Busy is the New Stupid” – What does Warren Buffett know about real work?
00:22:09
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- [00:00]
Bill Gates
It's not a proxy of your seriousness that you filled every minute in your schedule and people are going to want to want your time. It's the only thing you can't buy. I mean, I buy anything I want basically, but I can't buy time.
- [00:13]
Mark Stedman
That's Warren Buffett, the sixth richest man in the world. The first voice you heard was Bill Gates, who was given the notion by Buffett that busy is the new stupid. Now if we were one of those leadership podcasts, we'd go down the rabbit hole of how as a senior leader in a team you need more to sit and think. So you can plan the next year's growth strategy or whatever, but you're you and I'm me and ain't neither of us blocking off our calendar for deep ideation. So is there anything this 94 year old business mogul can teach us? Well yeah, I mean he kind of said the most important thing already. But this is undo and you deserve more than a glib 30 second soundbite. So how can we be a bit less busy so that when we're older our lasting memories will are of something other than our desktop wallpaper? I'm Mark Stedman and this is Undo, yanking up the underpants of productivity bros everywhere and giving them the world's most efficient atomic wedgie. One quick note before we crack on. Undo is supported entirely by you. So if you like what I'm doing and haven't already made a contribution, you can help keep the show running@patreon.com undo podcast. Thanks.
- [01:32]
Rachel Morris
I'm Rachel Morris, I'm the host of the you are not a frog podcast. I'm a former GP and now I help professionals in high stakes high stress jobs like doctors, beat burnout and work happier.
- [01:43]
Mark Stedman
Rachel knows from busy my lovely son.
- [01:46]
Rachel Morris
He's in the middle of A levels at the moment, bless him, but it means he's around in the house during the day and just two days ago. So this just shows how much I need to learn to practice what I preach. Two days ago I had back to back meetings. Literally from 9:30. I started one in the car. I made sure I got to my tennis lesson so I got my self care. But as I'm driving home it was on a hands free call and then I literally had back to back meetings that overran until 5 o' clock that day. Purely my own fault but. So I'd had lunch and I'd left all my stuff out after lunch because no one had emptied the dishwasher and there was loads of stuff out and he hasn't let me forget it. He's like, well, whenever I say to him, can you just empty the dishwasher for me? He goes, well Mum, you left all your lunch stuff out on Tuesday. I said, yeah, but I was back to back all day. I just had all these meetings. He went, mum, who's in charge of your diary from an 18 year old?
- [02:44]
Mark Stedman
So many of us seem to glorify busy and wear it as a badge of honor. How many times have you asked someone if they're busy and expected them to answer, yeah, really busy, like it's a good thing. One of our heroes from previous episodes, Merlin Mann, makes a distinction between being busy and being time constrained, which is pretty smart. But as Rachel pointed out here, often we're not busy per se, we're just over scheduled. But where does this fascination of busy come from? And more importantly, how can we rid ourselves of it? There we learn the wall step on the sidewalks of New there's nothing more a New Yorker loves than New York. They'll tell you it's the greatest city in the world. And old blue eyes will of course tell you if you can't make it there, you're buggered. According to a psychological study from 2013, the East coast of the States is characterized by high neuroticism, hustle culture and a tight coupling of work to personal worth. There, what you do is a proxy for who you are. Of course, these are generalisations and I'm painting with a very broad brush, but if you want to check out the study, you'll find it over on the website at Undo FM Buffet. That's Buffett with two T's, otherwise it'd be Buffet. As we travel over to the west coast, work is more a reflection of your personal values and your creativity. There it's more about fitting work into your life rather than letting life fill the spaces in between shifts. Speaking of shifts, I don't know how many people filled in this study, but I doubt there were many waiters or supermarket shelf stackers taking one of their 15 minute breaks to fill in a survey. I suspect cultures that have a strong, tall, poppy vibe, much like the uk, are more heads down, get on with it in their thinking. Tall Poppy syndrome, if you're unfamiliar, is the idea that you don't want to raise your head too high above the parapet lest someone shoot it off. Australia, New Zealand and the UK have it pretty bad, whereas in Ireland they call it having nauseans. So whether you cleave to the idea of the humble grafter, the no nonsense skilled craftsperson, or the driven go getter dreamer. Many of us have a tendency to glorify not just work, but the easiest to measure unit of that work, your busyness. Here's Rachel again.
- [05:24]
Rachel Morris
But also if someone says they're busy, then actually the response should be oh no. Do you need some help managing your diary? And that's why I'm trying to say over schedule, because it puts the onus on me.
- [05:34]
Mark Stedman
And isn't that the tricky part? Not giving into the narrative that you're a slave to the calendar? Now, one of the things Rachel talks about in her podcast, which I have stolen for episode one, is that you can essentially say no to anything. And before you throw your device into the sea in rage at my unchecked privilege, we're not saying there won't be consequences if you say no to something. You've just got to figure out if those are consequences you can bear. As someone occupying a space on the spectrum but awaiting the paperwork, I'm pretty good at saying no, especially to people who aren't used to it. It's quite fun to watch a private school former RAF pilot go all red in the face because you refuse to do something that would likely result in a civil case being brought against him. That's a story for another time. It's less fun to tell a struggling artist you can't help on their project because you're over committed yourself. Saying yes is easy because we're pack animals and it temporarily raises our status within the package. But at some point you're gonna end up saying yes to too many things. You're gonna drop a ball because you're human and someone's going to be disappointed, and likely a lot more disappointed than they would have been if you'd have said no from the jump. To quote Mr. Warren Buffett, the difference between successful people and really successful people is that really successful people say no to almost everything. Now, I'm as likely to take advice from a billionaire as I am to separate a vegan from his lunch. That's not because I'm a vegan hater. It's just that I was at a conference last week and I know from my friends how annoying it is when meat eaters nick vegetarian people's lunches. If you think that cheese and bean burrito is so nice, why don't you swear off beef burgers? Jason? Anyway, look, what I'm saying is I'm not out here advocating for the buffets or the Bezos's of the world. I think they have as much to teach us about living real lives as career politicians. But that doesn't invalidate some of the things they say. We've already looked at our attitudes to work and our tendency to fetishize or glorify what we view as hard work. And as Rachel says, it can go deeper than work alone.
- [07:54]
Rachel Morris
We don't just glorify busy, we glorify self sacrifice. And I think this is a really big problem and particularly in the caring professions as well. But we see it everywhere. Parents that are caring at home, particularly mums, have to sacrifice themselves for their children. Doctors, nurses sacrifice themselves for patient care. And we love it in our society. We love these self sacrificial people.
- [08:18]
Mark Stedman
Let's go outside and bang some pots.
- [08:21]
Rachel Morris
Totally. Let's bang some pots. But not give anyone a pay rise and then abuse them when we can't get appointments because they're so overworked.
- [08:28]
Mark Stedman
And where does it get you? That's my question. All this worry about work, about how it connects with who you are or what it says about you. Now, I'm not saying not to worry about putting food on the table, but we don't live in a system where the people best suited to do a particular job get to do it always, or where the job uses every part of your purpose as a human being. So the job can just be the job. As long as you've got someone to come home to or something to give. Something that to once again quote another billionaire, albeit a dead one, something that can make a dent in the universe. Hopefully you're hearing this of your own free will, not because you're in the back seat of your friend's car and one of them just said, do you mind if we put on a podcast? Assuming you're here on purpose, you're probably here and have stuck around because there is something you want to do outside of work. It might not be a big thing, it might not be something that changes the fundamental fabric of space time, but maybe something someone will look back on and remember in a few years. And I'm at a crossroads with this, so I'm gonna make a pretty shitty guide. This is episode 20 and yet there are 21 full episodes on the Undo feed. That's because last week I put out something different as I was at a memorial service for someone who did a lot for his local community and who coincidentally enough, was an early adopter of podcasting in the uk. I can tell you that you shouldn't be pressured, that you shouldn't give in to hustle culture and try to make use of every grain of sand that falls through the hourglass. I can tell you to go at your own pace, that you're young and you've got time. But I can also tell you that sudden, unexpected things happen. God farts. And far off in the distance, someone's world collapses. So you know what? Maybe busy isn't the problem. Maybe stretching yourself a little is okay. It's who you do it for. That's the question. If you're knackered after a full day of work, you're scraping yourself thin to make someone else richer. But if you're conscious about spending your time and making the odd sacrifice to make your life a little better, that's a different thing entirely. And believe me, I know there are plenty of us who don't have that luxury, who have to sweat it at work and come home and sweat it again, looking after kids that don't appreciate them, or elderly parents who don't fully remember them. This is nuanced. And it's not always fun, which is why this podcast is what it is, a meandering journey rather than a set of actionable takeaways. But if you are in a situation where you're overworked both at the office and at home, there is always some form of help available, however small. It might mean going out of your comfort zone and asking for it. It might mean spending a bit of money. It also might just mean speaking to someone and at least unburdening yourself just a little bit. And listen, if life's going pretty great for you right now, that's amazing. Keep doing what you're doing. Just watch out for anyone who might need a boost. Sorry to get all preachy on you, but how else am I supposed to get more 1 star reviews for this podcast? So hustle. The thing about these billionaires, right, is they don't half seem to go on about hard work. The intergalactic time traveling slug wearing a skin suit called Elon Musk talks about putting in 80 to 100 hour weeks as if merely grinding on something is the answer. Thing is, you can do deadlifts and crunches at the gym all day, but if your form's wrong, you won't see any difference. You'll just spend time in the gym, probably hating it, going home and doing it all again tomorrow. But if you're working the right muscles in the right way, the hard work starts to take effect. Take it from a guy who knows I've cancelled more gym memberships than I've had hot dinners and my doctor says if I have any more, I'll need to start buying clothes at the big and wide. The best way to know if your form is off is to ask for help. Some types of grind lead to gradually better results. We call this practice we saw in episode three how putting in the hours pays off even or especially when it's difficult or boring. But some kinds of grind never seem to yield positive results, no matter how long you stick at them. It's all well and good putting on a monthly comedy night at your local pub and flyering for it every chance you get. But if you're flirting the wrong houses or there's a misprint with the web address, you'll never see results. When we talked about atomic habits a few weeks back, we looked at how most of us are not geared up for long term thinking, that we seek immediate gratification and we can easily lose focus if we don't see the number we want to see go up. And maybe that's what separates the buffets of the world from us. It's their ability to think long term, to sacrifice short term comfort for long term success. Okay, so what do we do with all of this? Honestly, it's to drop all the meta shit that surrounds it. All the guilt, all the shame, all the shoulds and all the judgment, and maybe even what the Buddhists call the attachment. Here's Rachel recounting the story of one of her guests.
- [13:50]
Rachel Morris
She got to a point where she was really burnt out and had to go off sick. And her internal values were, I am the strong one, I'm always there for people and I help people. So when she had to say she was going off sick, that went directly against her internal values of I'm strong, I help people and I don't inconvenience other people. Because she knew this was going to cause problems for other people. And then she didn't just feel guilty because a lot of us can feel guilty about stuff, she felt shame on all sorts of levels. Yeah, that. Why can't I cope? I'm not good enough, but I'm not helping people. I'm not being selfless anymore. And frankly, why would we ever do anything that causes us shame? We'll do anything to avoid shame. And so even saying to someone, I can't get to that task on the to do list that you've asked me to do today, that's a mini shame there because it means, well, I'm not, I'm not good enough I haven't got.
- [14:43]
Mark Stedman
Everything done and it's a short hop from I'm not good enough to I'm not enough. So if you want my opinion, is this do busy if busy works for you. Even do busy if there is no other option right now. But don't do busy to make someone else's life easier if that person wouldn't do the same for you. And don't attach yourself to the identity of of being busy or productive or lazy or distractible. Keep an eye on yourself. And if you can, ask for someone else to keep an eye on you too. Check in with yourself every now and again to make sure you're running smoothly, and try your best to achieve a balance between living a long life, doing work that matters, and regretting nothing. Undo is written and produced by me and Mark Stedman. You can find more resources at Undo FM Buffet again with two T's, and you can hear Rachel's own weekly podcast at you are not a frog.com this is the first of three episodes based on discussions I had with Rachel, focusing a lot on burnout. If you're wondering whether you're burning out, overwhelmed, or just a bit stressed, check out the link in the show notes to get Rachel's free Self Assessment toolkit. It's made for doctors and healthcare professionals, but it works for anyone who does work that makes a difference. We'll take a brief breather and then I'll be back in the shed to tell you all about my last couple of weeks and my relationship to busyness. See you in a tick. This week I am indebted to no brainer774 and Mayor Bear Ha for their comments. The ideas and attachments to historical figures make it worth coming back for another episode, says no Brainer, while Mayor had this to say in reference to our episode from the 26th of May. I really enjoy this series, but I couldn't understand this episode melting face emoji I totally hear you Mayor Bear. I was away last week and didn't want to leave you stranded so had to put something together fairly quickly. It wasn't what we would consider canon, but it keeps the feed alive. If you'd like your comments read out on the show, you can be like no Brainer and leave an Apple podcasts review. Or if you're a Spotify user like MayorBear, you can drop us a comment in the app. Your words positive and constructive are kind of the reason I do this, so thank you. You Join me in the shed. I am fresh off achieving a Qualification for a very boring, very technical certification thing. So I got that yesterday, which has sort of rounded off two weeks that I would like to spend a little bit of time recovering, perhaps somewhere in nature that might be nice. So the week that I was for a time calling Hell Week, I renamed in my notion document to something else to think a little bit more positively about. It did see me go to the podcast show London where I met up with a bunch of people that I often either see in LinkedIn post or in newsletter form or in tiny boxes over Zoom. So it's really lovely to see some familiar faces and see the state of the industry as it is happening now and practice being a person out in the world again, especially when you are meeting people who think differently and you have to then remember that sometimes, although your opinion is the correct one, that sometimes we like to give space for other people's opinions. So just a note to self, I then had to hot foot it and I was a little bit sad that I didn't get to spend more time drinking with with my pod friends, but I hot footed it down or across over a bit from London to Brighton where I was filming the next day. That evening I got to watch an hour of Race against or Race across the World, which if you've not seen, I can highly recommend it. It's quite a lovely show and I was there for the next day doing a bit of filming. I got an impromptu drink with a friend who just happened to have clocked off work as I finished work. So that was lovely and serendipitous. Got a couple of pints there and then straight on the train back to Birmingham and was in here by sometime after midnight, I think. Slept for ages, then went to go and see a quite remarkable show that has got me sort of thinking about a few things in the sort of long term about collaboration and friendship and making things that make tiny little dinks in the universe. It was a wonderful show. And then the following day I was at that memorial service that I mentioned and so I will, I will say, Nick Booth, thank you for everything that you did for me and for the community of Birmingham. You helped a lot of people, me included, and your contributions have not gone unnoticed. So thank you, Nick. And then, yes, the, the rest of the week has largely involved me getting ready for my singing group, which I started the first iteration of that happens on Friday of this, of this week as you're hearing it now. So yeah, that's going to be fun and exciting. I was hoofing it around the local area today, flyering as it happens, dropping in flyers, having a crisis about, you know, is each house the right house to drop these flyers in? And unfortunately, this is just what you have to do. And so I sort of mind over mattered myself. And I kind of just thought, you know what, I am actually just gonna do it. Because the feeling of having done something that is not just an Instagram ad to reach people who are not necessarily chronically online, okay, it's gonna be imperfect. Maybe if I give out 150 flyers, maybe one or two people will. Will actually do something. But still, that may be one or two people that wouldn't have otherwise. So, you know, maybe that is worth it. And also, it just felt like a bit of honest work, if you know what I mean. Like, I was out in the world and I was just doing something very simple. And it kind of felt a little bit good to do that. You know, I started with a big stack of flyers and then I ended up with a smaller one with only a couple of handfuls left. So, you know, it felt like I did a thing and that was nice. So there you go. So, as I say, we've got a couple more episodes with Rachel, if you would like to hear the interview. The reason there are three episodes with Rachel is because we went on for about an hour and a half. It was. It was absolutely wonderful. And if you would like to hear the full discussion, it's. It's edited down to about an hour just so that we got rid of some of the bum fluff that. But if you would like to hear it all because, you know, as. As you can hear here, we take just the the choicest morsels patreon.com undo podcast. I will be publishing the full interview after episode 23. So if you are interested and you want to help support the show, then patreon.com undo podcast is the place to do that. And I thank each and every one of those who already have. Thank you so much. Have a wonderful week and I look forward to being back in your ears again next Monday. Take care.