Sponsor Voice (3:30)

Symptoms can include fever, headache, trouble breathing, chest tightness, and cough. And it seems to resolve within two to three days. But we don't yet know the long.

Annie Lowrey (3:38)

Term effects, which are normally not super problematic if you're a human. But they kill birds. There's like 50 years of stories of people killing their own pet birds accidentally.

Julia Longoria (3:48)

Oh my gosh.

Annie Lowrey (3:49)

And I'm like, the pan that you're making your breakfast burrito in can kill your pet, like with no contact. I'm not saying that this is a common occurrence because you do have to really heat the pan up. But who among us hasn't forgotten a pan on the stove for a bit?

Julia Longoria (4:06)

That is wild. I had not heard that. That is crazy. Talk about the canary in the coal mine.

Annie Lowrey (4:13)

I was like, that's it, I'm done. If it can kill a bird, what is it doing to you?

Julia Longoria (4:17)

So writer Annie Lowery embarked on a quest.

Annie Lowrey (4:21)

I threw out our nonstick pants over my husband's objection. And then I became slowly more and more obsessed with it and getting rid of more and more things in the house.

Julia Longoria (4:32)

A quixotic quest for a life without plastic.

Annie Lowrey (4:37)

I would read something or hear something terrifying. Is your spatula going to kill you? And not quite know what to do.

Julia Longoria (4:46)

We've been getting a lot of messages about the dangers of our plastic household items.

Annie Lowrey (4:51)

A study recently published reported black plastic household items are exposing us to dangerous chemicals.

Julia Longoria (4:58)

We're told, throw out all your black spatulas.

Annie Lowrey (5:01)

The study was just found to have.

Julia Longoria (5:03)

A math error or maybe don't throw them out. It's all very confusing. The science on this is early and it's evolving. I think it's fair to say at this point we have more questions than we have answers.

Sponsor Voice (5:16)

As much press has already happened on this topic.

Annie Lowrey (5:18)

I absolutely believe this is tip of.

Sponsor Voice (5:20)

The iceberg kind of stuff.

Julia Longoria (5:23)

I'm Julia Longoria and today on Unexplainable. How bad is plastic for us really? And in the absence of real answers, what can we do about it? In the face of scary but vague information about plastics Annie Lowery was moved to try and do something about it.

Annie Lowrey (6:00)

Although I would say I was not doing this in any kind of intelligent or systemic way. I was doing it in the way that I think a lot of people, when they have some anxiety about something, was doing, which was basically just acting randomly in probably ways that were completely not evidence based and probably pretty silly a lot of the time. And so I thought, all right, I'm going to wake up in the morning and see how far I can get without using plastics.

Julia Longoria (6:25)

That morning, Annie got out of bed.

Annie Lowrey (6:28)

My sheets are a linen and cotton blend, so those do not have plastic in them.

Julia Longoria (6:35)

So far so good.

Annie Lowrey (6:36)

Yeah, so far so good. And then I couldn't drink my iced coffee, which was in a plastic bottle. I would note that my refrigerator is partially metal, but largely plastic. I don't know how you would get a plastic free refrigerator, if that's even possible. Then I came back into my bedroom to sort of get ready for the. I couldn't brush my teeth because my toothbrush is plastic. And you can imagine, right, like that's rubbing your teeth inside your mouth, the two of them. Toothpaste itself was plastic.

Julia Longoria (7:10)

Wow. I'm never gonna brush my teeth in the same way. I never thought.

Annie Lowrey (7:13)

Yeah, exactly, right. You're rubbing, rubbing your teeth with a soft plastic that degrades. Normally I use soap that's in a plastic bottle to wash my face in the morning. My moisturizer, my sunscreen, my deodorant, all of those were plastic. I couldn't floss. My hair clips and my hairbrush, all plastic. Couldn't use any makeup. I went to get dressed, and all of my underwear, they all have at least a little bit of stretch in them. And so even my cotton underwear is not actually completely cotton, but I could put on like this kind of capacious sack dress with no underwear. I had no shoes that didn't have plastic. And so I couldn't leave my house. So it was like less than 20 minutes after I woke up that I was like, well, here I am and I'm defeated. I did not make it far. I did not make it far at all. And I cannot imagine what it would take to have a truly plastic free house. I don't know how you would manage to get things like lamps, electronic components. Paint is virtually all plastic. I mean, it would be you. You would be like living in a. You'd have to be living in, like a historical recreation, I think.

Julia Longoria (8:38)

Yeah. I mean, could you imagine or would we even want a life without plastic? You know, in our modern times.

Annie Lowrey (8:47)

Yeah, I think it's worth noting how important this stuff is. Not saying that there aren't harms, obviously, I think that there are. But plastic has made the food supply much safer. It is massively, massively important for, like, medical purposes. So it's a really important substance. And so, no, I absolutely don't think we want a world without plastic. I think we probably want a better understanding of the risks and the harms, because I think that we're dealing with this sort of, like, miasma where we don't know how we could be better protecting ourselves.

Julia Longoria (9:22)

Even though Annie couldn't and probably wouldn't even want to totally escape plastic, she ventured to try and get rid of what she thought might be the more dangerous plastic.

Annie Lowrey (9:33)

I started really with the kitchen, and I remember reading something about how soft plastic. So, like plastic wrap, Saran Wrap is more problematic than rigid plastic. So I threw out the plastic wrap. I got rid of our plastic storage containers, Tupperware type things, and I replaced them with the glass ones, which is quite annoying because they're much heavier. I have two little kids, and so I got rid of all of their plastic baby spoons and forks, and I replaced them with small metal ones. And then I started just wherever I saw it. I got rid of all of our plastic cooking implements. So, like those, I just used metal or I used wood. And then I also began to kind of implement rules in the household. So big one was no microwaving plastic. And so it was hundreds of these little changes that I made around the house. And again, this is not. This is not how somebody with a lot of scientific knowledge would do it. This was just how I was doing it in a kind of silly, you know, in a haphazard fashion.

Julia Longoria (10:43)

Besides annoying the bejesus out of her husband, Annie wondered what the effect of her neurotic behavior was. What was it actually accomplishing? So several years into her quest, she put on her journalist hat and turned to the experts for answers, who told her that a lot of what she'd been doing wasn't really accomplishing much.

Annie Lowrey (11:05)

None of this was bad to do, I would say. But there's this kind of broad problem, which is that this stuff is everywhere, absolutely everywhere. It is in dust. It is all over your house. It is in your clothes. It is in the literal food you are eating and the liquids that you are drinking. And so that means that, on the one hand, there's lots of ways to try to modulate your exposure, but it also means you're not gonna Bring it down to zero. It's just not possible. You would have to stop breathing air, right, or drinking water. So there's that issue when plastic degrades.

Julia Longoria (11:51)

Say when you reuse it a bunch of times, microwave it, wash it, recycle it, let it sit for decades in the ocean. It releases tiny particles of plastic that we've begun to call microplastics and nanoplastics.

Annie Lowrey (12:05)

So we're talking about everything from like the size of a pencil eraser down to stuff that you absolutely cannot see with the human eye, right? Like tiny minuscule bits that you could be breathing in. Even bits that are so small they can be absorbed through your skin, which is wild. But when it comes to microplastics and nanoplastics, we don't actually know a lot about what happens to them when they're in your body.

Julia Longoria (12:32)

Scientists have found micro and nanoplastics in almost every organ and tissue in the human body. They found microplastics in placenta. Scientists studied the deceased bodies of patients with dementia and found that they had up to 10 times as much plastic in their brains as those without dementia.

Annie Lowrey (12:55)

Scientists are doing a tremendous amount of research on this. But at this point, almost all of the research is, is correlative, not causative. And some of the signs can be really difficult. One of the ways in which it's difficult is that there's no controls because all of us have been exposed to this stuff for so long. None of us, none of us are like pure. You would need to raise somebody in a plastic free environment, like on the moon or something, and they can't do that.

Julia Longoria (13:23)

That's so wild.

Annie Lowrey (13:24)

So that said, with a very large caveat, scientists do feel like they have the beginning of an understanding of what you can do at an individual level to reduce your exposure and the ways in which it might be important.

Julia Longoria (13:44)

Some science based things you can do after the break.

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Annie Lowrey (16:39)

The critical thing to know here is that ambient being around plastic is not a problem. It has to be inside you to hurt you. And so that means that there's only a couple routes. So you can get it through your skin. You can breathe it in, which is, you know, through dust and through fibers, that kind of thing. And then you can eat it and drink it. You know, the transdermal exposure I know less about, nobody seemed to think that that was like a big, huge problem. It's really about breathing and eating and drinking. Like if you eat a broccoli, it possibly has micro and nanoplastics in it.

Julia Longoria (17:15)

Wild.

Annie Lowrey (17:16)

Because it Is soaking up water that has microplastics and nanoplastics. It's in soil that has microplastics and nanoplastics.

Julia Longoria (17:25)

If you think about it, most of the world's plastic ends up in landfills. That stuff gets into our groundwater and can get into agricultural soil. That's how it can end up in our broccoli and in the meat we eat. There's not great data out there at this point, but scientists have started to observe that meat tends to have higher levels of nanoplastics and the chemicals that plastic releases. Limiting meat intake might be a great way to limit your nanoplastic intake or limiting more processed foods, which scientists are beginning to warn could have more plastic contamination from the way they're prepared.

Annie Lowrey (18:04)

One thing that I found that it turned out I was actually kind of right about is that, yeah, then the kitchen and how you're cooking is kind of important because, again, you're gonna eat that and you're gonna drink that. One other thing for people to check. So I live in New York. New York City tests its tap water, and the tap water does not have microplastics or nanoplastics in it. But you might wanna check in your local community that might not be true. And there are water filters that can get it out for you. And then the kind of second big category that folks pointed to actually has to do with clothing and fibers. And the issue here is that clothing and fibers, they degrade, right? So we wash them, and when we wash them, microplastics and nanoplastics come out of them. Or, you know, your rug gets all beat up or maybe your dog chews on it or something. And then you can breathe that in or eat it right? Like through your mouth because of the fibers. And so mopping, wiping things down, you know, getting the grease off of your stove, taking your shoes off in the house, washing your hands before you eat, all of those kinds of things probably pretty easy to do. And those. Those would help if you can switch to natural fibers. If you can hang dry things instead of putting them in the clothes dryer, that probably helps. And then just getting rid of all the dust in your house. So using, like, a vacuum with a HEPA filter.

Julia Longoria (19:28)

As you point out, though, the HEPA filter is made of plastic, right?

Annie Lowrey (19:33)

Yeah, our HEPA filters, I'm looking at mine right now, and it's a plastic box, and it's right next to a blanket that I'm pretty sure has plastic in it.

Julia Longoria (19:44)

And to be clear, like, it's not Clear that all of this plastic is bad for us. Right. Like there's still kind of. The jury's still a little bit out on the effect of some of this stuff.

Annie Lowrey (19:56)

Absolutely. So some things are much worse than others. Nobody seemed to think that sort of solid, non degraded plastic objects you might be touching and interacting with. So like that HEPA filter, like a computer, nobody seemed to think that that was a problem. Or the light switch on your lamp. The fact that that's plastic, the way in which it might be a problem is that when you throw it out, it goes into a landfill. Microplastics and nanoplastics leach into the water supply or, you know, God forbid it ends up in the ocean, degrades and then you contribute to microplastics in the ocean. But yeah, there's definitely gradations of harm here. And so it was in this process of talking to people that I really built out my understanding of the enemy here. And then also what I should be doing beyond this kind of silly stuff I was doing.

Julia Longoria (20:42)

A big issue that I heard about in the emerging field of micro and nanoplastics is how do we even measure how much plastic is in our bodies. Some of the studies I came across looked at deceased patients because scientists devised a process they likened to Breaking Bad, where they digest all of the biological components of the organs that they're looking at until only synthetic material, the plastic, is left.

Annie Lowrey (21:13)

The other thing is that there's now a bunch of companies that will test your blood. You can pay, it's like direct to consumer testing for microplastics and for pfas. I was kind of just like, all right, let's see what we can dig up here. There isn't a strong scientific basis or a lot of history for them. I took the PFAS test because it was available at a Quest Diagnostics.

Julia Longoria (21:41)

PFAS per and polyfluoroalkyl substances are part of a class of chemicals called forever chemicals that are known to be released by plastics. Plastics aren't the only place they come from, though. We seem to know a little bit more about the negative effects of PFAS on our bodies than we know about micro and nanoplastics. We've been studying PFAS longer, since about the 50s. And there are strong associations between exposures to PFAS and cancers. But the Quest Diagnostic blood test for PFAS is very recent.

Annie Lowrey (22:18)

It came out in 2024, it was $357. And so I went, I took the test, the phlebotomist was looking at it and she was like, I've never seen anybody get this. And I was like, well, here we go. So you know, it's a vanna puncture. They like, you know, do it in the arm. And it came back fairly quickly. It tested for, I believe, seven or eight PFAS chemicals. I went and I googled each of them individually and I can't tell you the names because they're these like, they're these like 20 syllable long chemical names. Like something, something, something, something, something,. Something, acid. Right. A bunch of them were plastic related chemicals. And it said that I had an intermediate exposure which may indicate health issues. May. And so I was like, well, what the heck does that mean? And like which health issues? As part of the test, they basically give you a physician to talk to who's kind of contracted to explain what your test results are. And I think maybe a lot of people don't follow up with this option. So I set up the appointment, I talk to this doctor who was like, yeah, look, there's just a bunch of this stuff out there. You should get a breast cancer screening. Which I have to anyway. And also, you know, there's just these chemicals are everywhere and you gotta avoid exposure, but frankly they're just everywhere. And so I was like, well, this is pointless. You know, like every doctor who I talked to about those tests was like, you shouldn't do that. And that's pretty pointless. Like you can get that number and it's not telling you anything. And I thought this was so interesting was they were like, look, that's gonna tell you the volume of a certain number of chemicals in your blood serum. But we're pretty sure that in the case of microplastics and nanoplastics, the issue is that it's accumulating in your organs. So if it's in your lungs or in your liver, in your gut, in your GI system, someplace in your brain. Yeah, your brain. Right. Testing your blood isn't gonna tell you that. It's just telling you about your blood. And we actually don't have enough data about safe levels variation within the population. You know, if you test it one day, is that number gonna be the same two, three months from now? So every doctor I talked to about this was like, they're just taking your money, you're just getting fleeced. Which I thought was funny.

Julia Longoria (24:49)

I mean, at the end of this journey, like, you know, it still feels like there's the stuff we don't know about plastic and its effect on us, like totally Dwarfs what we know at this point, we know so little. And I'm curious, like, did you come across, like, why or reflect on why we know so little about this stuff that is like. It's like the air we breathe, basically.

Annie Lowrey (25:18)

It is. I think it is obvious that there are health harms, and I think it will take a long time and a lot of really great researchers, physicians, scientists, biologists, chemists. Oh, my goodness, all different types of people looking into the harms until we kind of start to pin this down. And, you know, I just. I think about. We never really proved that smoking causes lung cancer. It was really evident to doctors that that was exactly what was happening. And there was a tremendous amount of research in the 20th century supporting this obvious conclusion, like exposure studies, animal studies, lab studies. But there wasn't, like, that randomized control trial that absolutely proved it, pinned it down.

Julia Longoria (26:23)

It was always like, correlation over cause.

Annie Lowrey (26:25)

Yeah, it was correlation. And at some point, this was considered so important that scientists kind of came together and they said, like, here's all of this evidence that is so strong that even if in some sense it's not proven, we can't not act because this is obvious, the case we're considering. It proved we would be doing tremendous harm by not letting people know this and by not regulating these substances because we know. We know, right? Ideally, our public health officials and our scientists would begin acting, even if things are not 100% pinned down, because we might have a lot of people get sick while we're waiting to know everything. Because this is a hard thing to study, a really hard thing to study. And certainly in the case of microplastics and nanoplastics, we're at the beginning of studying it. And it's the sort of thing that if the exposure that you're getting in childhood might lead to you getting an autoimmune condition or a cancer 50 years from now. Right? Like, we can't wait for that. And that doesn't mean that we all need to panic and get rid of all forms of plastic, but it does mean that I wish that we would have scientific authorities and public health authorities that would start moving in the direction of protecting people. We don't need to know everything in advance. This is all about risk reduction. And we're talking about individualized risk reduction because the government has done essentially nothing to protect individuals from this and to create rules around this. I think in the next 10, 20 years, we're going to get a lot better sense of what we should be worried about when it comes to micro nanoplastics because definitely those of us with more anxious imaginations, we're really letting them run wild at the moment. And I just, I get that sneaking suspicion that 30 years from now we might have wished that we did some things differently.

Julia Longoria (28:31)

I'm curious, like, what's the last piece of plastic you bought or used?

Annie Lowrey (28:39)

Man, I ate takeout last night. And takeout, it's coming in those black plastic containers and it's also because you heat it, because the food is hot when they put the food into it, like, it's bad. It's bad. But literally last night, last night I ate takeout, so there's no avoiding it. I am wearing, though, I'm wearing like a cotton dress. So I'm Elise, I'm. I'm. But my underwear, I am wearing underwear, for what it's worth. So no, I've reduced, but I'm nowhere near zero. This, this house is still covered in plastic.

Julia Longoria (29:18)

This episode was produced by me, Julia Longoria, with editing from Meredith Hadenot, who also runs the show. Mixing by Christian Ayala and music by Noam Hassenfeld. Fact checking by Melissa Hirsch. Jorge Just is our editorial director and Bird Pinkerton watched as the platypuses stepped back, encircling her and Aaron Bird, a short, squat bird, came out of the crowd holding a small wooden chest. Choose your weapon. Thanks as always to Brian Resnick for co creating our show. If you want to share your thoughts with us, write in or send us a voice memo. We're@ unexplainableox.com we love to hear from you. If you want to support the show and help us keep making it, please join our membership program that's@box.com members. You'll get AD, free podcasts and unlimited access to box journalism. And if you sign up because you love Unexplainable, please let our bosses know. It makes a big difference. You can also support us by leaving a nice rating or a review or just by telling everyone you know to listen to the show. Unexplainable is part of the Vox Media Podcast network and we will be back in your feed next week. Expedia Vivimos paraviajar.