Podcast Summary: Unexplainable — "Lost on the road to enlightenment"

Host: Sally Helm (with reporting from Unexplainable team)
Date: November 19, 2025

Overview

This episode of Unexplainable investigates the lesser-known risks and complex realities surrounding meditation—especially as it's practiced in the West. Host Sally Helm explores what happens when a deeply spiritual, centuries-old tradition meets modern science and wellness culture. The episode charts the journey of Dr. Willoughby Britton, a clinical psychologist and meditation researcher, as she uncovers uncomfortable truths about the adverse effects of meditation and how society often overlooks or misinterprets them. Through anecdotes, personal experiences, expert interviews, and historical context, the episode questions if Western thinking has flattened meditation into a simplistic self-help tool, ignoring its potential for psychological upheaval.

Key Discussion Points

1. Willoughby Britton's Introduction to Meditation and Early Research

• Willoughby Britton recounts (02:04) how her father's gift of Jack Kornfield's A Path with Heart drew her to meditation at a time when she was coping with acute anxiety after the death of a childhood friend.
  • “It just suddenly made me realize how vulnerable we are and I just became terrified...just basically had an anxiety disorder. Now I would call it that.” (02:28, Willoughby Britton)
• She becomes immersed in meditation for years, even as she takes a scientific path in clinical psychology, using meditation as her research focus (04:40).

2. Surprising Research Results and Suppressed Data

• During her graduate work, Britton hypothesizes that meditation should improve sleep, but discovers the opposite in her study: meditators had less deep sleep and more signs of cortical arousal (05:19).
  • “The meditation group had less deep sleep, faster brain waves...every measure you could have of cortical arousal. So, like being more awake, the meditation group had more.” (05:19, Willoughby Britton)
• Troubled by the findings—which defy wellness narratives—she admits to not publishing the results.
  • “It was sort of the wrong answer, I just...didn’t publish it. I just sat on the data. So that's my first confession.” (05:58, Willoughby Britton)
• She describes the social and professional “bubble” that incentivized positive results and wellness evangelism in meditation research (07:30).

3. Meditation as a Source of Psychological Distress

• In clinical settings, Britton encounters retreat participants admitted to psychiatric care following meditation-induced psychosis (10:48).
  • “That one year there were two people who had come off retreat and they were both completely psychotic...” (10:48, Willoughby Britton)
• She realizes these are not isolated incidents—numerous people share similar adverse experiences when she begins probing the topic at professional events (11:30).
• With her team, she launches a qualitative study interviewing ~100 experienced, mostly Western Buddhist meditators about post-meditation challenges—ranging from convulsions to profound emotional blunting (13:44–14:25).

4. Differentiating Spiritual Crisis from Mental Illness

• Participants describe a range of symptoms—visual phenomena, re-experiencing past traumas, derealization, and emotion loss—some considered necessary for spiritual progress within Buddhist texts, but others, like suicidality or psychosis, recognized as concerning by both teachers and scientists (14:43–16:04).
• Adverse effects often subside when meditation is ceased, but the ambiguity in defining what’s “bad” versus “transformative” is a theme.

5. The Broader Picture: Context, Risk and Cultural Blind Spots

• Sally Helm frames the Western context: Meditation is often pitched as universally beneficial and relaxing, bolstered by figures like Richie Davidson, who cautions that for most, it’s safe (16:23).
  • “For the average person, the risk for psychosis of meditation is not greater than the risk of walking down the street and producing psychosis.” (16:43, Richie Davidson)
• Both Britton and Davidson agree intensive retreats and existing psychiatric risk factors heighten danger, but Britton stresses that even people with no prior issues have suffered adverse reactions (17:56–18:43).
• Scientists struggle to design studies capable of isolating causes and frequency of severe negative experiences (17:28).

6. The Deluge of Underserved Meditators

• Post-publication, Britton’s lab is inundated with distress calls from meditators and their families seeking answers and validation (19:02).
  • “The lab phone rang and rang and rang... we had to actually turn it off because it was disrupting data collection.” (19:02, Willoughby Britton)
• This demand forces the creation of a meditation “hotline”.

7. Ancient Texts and the Original Purposes of Meditation

• Professor Pierce Salguero (24:02) explains that Buddhist medical and spiritual literature has long acknowledged meditation's dangers, using language like “qi imbalance” or references to demonic disturbances.
  • “[Meditation] can cause harm in some cases... it could be found pretty much in all places and all times within the Asian Buddhist tradition ... when you pick up meditation, you're playing with fire.” (25:05, Pierce Salguero)
• The destabilization of self is the point in traditional practice, not a bug—“radically destabilizing your sense of self” is by design (25:47–26:44).

8. Case Study: Scott Lippett's Destabilizing Experience

• Scott Lippett, a dedicated practitioner, recounts (27:08–31:40) dissociative, frame-by-frame experiences, emotional numbness, and eventually suicidal ideation resulting from deep meditation.
  • “I actually felt out of my body... I was having a borderline psychedelic experience at the same time.” (29:18, Scott Lippett)
  • “It led to a really cold and empty reality where not only was I feeling terrible, but I have no agency either. And what's the point?... Suicidal ideations came to play through all this.” (30:02, Scott Lippett)
• He notes the spiritual advice he received was simply to persist (“the dark night of the soul”) rather than reconsider or pause.

9. The Perils of Zeal and the Historical Takeaway

• Both the modern stories and historical texts warn against extreme persistence when things go wrong; the “zeal of the convert” (34:24) can make new practitioners more vulnerable to overdoing, misunderstanding, and self-blame during difficult experiences.
  • “The advice from historical texts seems to be something more like, oh yeah, that, that's a thing. Don’t get caught up in it. Just shift your focus. Do some other kind of practice for a while.” (34:24)
• Pierce Salguero: “It has more to do with, you know, your relationship to meditation, maybe not having proper balance...rather than any inherent characteristic of you yourself or of meditation itself.” (34:24, Pierce Salguero)

Notable Quotes and Memorable Moments

• Willoughby Britton (on not publishing “bad” data):
  • “So that's my first confession.” (05:58)
  • “I was an evangelist. I wanted to promote this thing... it was causing insomnia, which is not what I wanted to have out there.” (07:30)
• On scientific assumptions:
  • “Why are all you psychologists trying to make meditation into a relaxation technique? Everyone knows if you meditate enough, you stop sleeping.” (08:28, meditation teacher)
• Pierce Salguero (on ancient wisdom):
  • “If you grew up in one of these Buddhist...cultures, you might sort of have the understanding that meditation, when you pick up meditation, you're playing with fire.” (25:05)
  • “The original purpose of this practice was to radically destabilize your sense of self...” (25:50)
• Scott Lippett (on his experience):
  • “It’d be like someone taking a strong psychedelic every day...but saying, ‘yeah, I’m gonna see the truth, and then everything will work.’ Or you could stop taking a strong psychedelic every day, you know?” (31:16)
• Advice from the historical record:
  • “Do not take too seriously any particular spiritual experience that happens, and particularly not taking it as an indication of your attainment of some high level of enlightenment.” (32:53)

Timestamps for Key Segments

• 02:04—Britton’s introduction to meditation following a personal crisis
• 05:19–05:58—Unexpected study results and Britton’s first confession
• 10:48–11:30—Reports of meditation-induced psychiatric crises
• 13:44–14:43—Categorizing adverse meditation effects
• 16:43–17:56—Discussion with Richie Davidson on risk and prevalence
• 19:02–19:12—Deluge of distress calls and establishing a meditation hotline
• 24:02–26:44—Pierce Salguero’s analysis of ancient meditation warnings
• 27:08–31:40—Scott Lippett’s personal account of destabilizing experiences
• 32:08–34:24—Historical advice on balancing practice and recognizing danger

Conclusion

Far from the universally calming, “relaxation technique” image sold in the West, meditation is revealed here—in both its history and its real-life outcomes—as a practice that can sometimes be radical, risky, and destabilizing. Science is only just beginning to catch up to what ancient sources, and many practitioners, have long known: The path to enlightenment can indeed be perilous. The episode calls for more nuanced awareness, better support for those who struggle, and a healthier, less zealous relationship with this powerful spiritual technology.

“Take a breath.” (35:45, closing admonition)