Lost on the road to enlightenment

Summary

Podcast Summary: Unexplainable — "Lost on the road to enlightenment"

Host: Sally Helm (with reporting from Unexplainable team)
Date: November 19, 2025

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Overview

This episode of Unexplainable investigates the lesser-known risks and complex realities surrounding meditation—especially as it's practiced in the West. Host Sally Helm explores what happens when a deeply spiritual, centuries-old tradition meets modern science and wellness culture. The episode charts the journey of Dr. Willoughby Britton, a clinical psychologist and meditation researcher, as she uncovers uncomfortable truths about the adverse effects of meditation and how society often overlooks or misinterprets them. Through anecdotes, personal experiences, expert interviews, and historical context, the episode questions if Western thinking has flattened meditation into a simplistic self-help tool, ignoring its potential for psychological upheaval.

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Key Discussion Points

1. Willoughby Britton's Introduction to Meditation and Early Research

• Willoughby Britton recounts (02:04) how her father's gift of Jack Kornfield's A Path with Heart drew her to meditation at a time when she was coping with acute anxiety after the death of a childhood friend.
  • “It just suddenly made me realize how vulnerable we are and I just became terrified...just basically had an anxiety disorder. Now I would call it that.” (02:28, Willoughby Britton)
• She becomes immersed in meditation for years, even as she takes a scientific path in clinical psychology, using meditation as her research focus (04:40).

2. Surprising Research Results and Suppressed Data

• During her graduate work, Britton hypothesizes that meditation should improve sleep, but discovers the opposite in her study: meditators had less deep sleep and more signs of cortical arousal (05:19).
  • “The meditation group had less deep sleep, faster brain waves...every measure you could have of cortical arousal. So, like being more awake, the meditation group had more.” (05:19, Willoughby Britton)
• Troubled by the findings—which defy wellness narratives—she admits to not publishing the results.
  • “It was sort of the wrong answer, I just...didn’t publish it. I just sat on the data. So that's my first confession.” (05:58, Willoughby Britton)
• She describes the social and professional “bubble” that incentivized positive results and wellness evangelism in meditation research (07:30).

3. Meditation as a Source of Psychological Distress

• In clinical settings, Britton encounters retreat participants admitted to psychiatric care following meditation-induced psychosis (10:48).
  • “That one year there were two people who had come off retreat and they were both completely psychotic...” (10:48, Willoughby Britton)
• She realizes these are not isolated incidents—numerous people share similar adverse experiences when she begins probing the topic at professional events (11:30).
• With her team, she launches a qualitative study interviewing ~100 experienced, mostly Western Buddhist meditators about post-meditation challenges—ranging from convulsions to profound emotional blunting (13:44–14:25).

4. Differentiating Spiritual Crisis from Mental Illness

• Participants describe a range of symptoms—visual phenomena, re-experiencing past traumas, derealization, and emotion loss—some considered necessary for spiritual progress within Buddhist texts, but others, like suicidality or psychosis, recognized as concerning by both teachers and scientists (14:43–16:04).
• Adverse effects often subside when meditation is ceased, but the ambiguity in defining what’s “bad” versus “transformative” is a theme.

5. The Broader Picture: Context, Risk and Cultural Blind Spots

• Sally Helm frames the Western context: Meditation is often pitched as universally beneficial and relaxing, bolstered by figures like Richie Davidson, who cautions that for most, it’s safe (16:23).
  • “For the average person, the risk for psychosis of meditation is not greater than the risk of walking down the street and producing psychosis.” (16:43, Richie Davidson)
• Both Britton and Davidson agree intensive retreats and existing psychiatric risk factors heighten danger, but Britton stresses that even people with no prior issues have suffered adverse reactions (17:56–18:43).
• Scientists struggle to design studies capable of isolating causes and frequency of severe negative experiences (17:28).

6. The Deluge of Underserved Meditators

• Post-publication, Britton’s lab is inundated with distress calls from meditators and their families seeking answers and validation (19:02).
  • “The lab phone rang and rang and rang... we had to actually turn it off because it was disrupting data collection.” (19:02, Willoughby Britton)
• This demand forces the creation of a meditation “hotline”.

7. Ancient Texts and the Original Purposes of Meditation

• Professor Pierce Salguero (24:02) explains that Buddhist medical and spiritual literature has long acknowledged meditation's dangers, using language like “qi imbalance” or references to demonic disturbances.
  • “[Meditation] can cause harm in some cases... it could be found pretty much in all places and all times within the Asian Buddhist tradition ... when you pick up meditation, you're playing with fire.” (25:05, Pierce Salguero)
• The destabilization of self is the point in traditional practice, not a bug—“radically destabilizing your sense of self” is by design (25:47–26:44).

8. Case Study: Scott Lippett's Destabilizing Experience

• Scott Lippett, a dedicated practitioner, recounts (27:08–31:40) dissociative, frame-by-frame experiences, emotional numbness, and eventually suicidal ideation resulting from deep meditation.
  • “I actually felt out of my body... I was having a borderline psychedelic experience at the same time.” (29:18, Scott Lippett)
  • “It led to a really cold and empty reality where not only was I feeling terrible, but I have no agency either. And what's the point?... Suicidal ideations came to play through all this.” (30:02, Scott Lippett)
• He notes the spiritual advice he received was simply to persist (“the dark night of the soul”) rather than reconsider or pause.

9. The Perils of Zeal and the Historical Takeaway

• Both the modern stories and historical texts warn against extreme persistence when things go wrong; the “zeal of the convert” (34:24) can make new practitioners more vulnerable to overdoing, misunderstanding, and self-blame during difficult experiences.
  • “The advice from historical texts seems to be something more like, oh yeah, that, that's a thing. Don’t get caught up in it. Just shift your focus. Do some other kind of practice for a while.” (34:24)
• Pierce Salguero: “It has more to do with, you know, your relationship to meditation, maybe not having proper balance...rather than any inherent characteristic of you yourself or of meditation itself.” (34:24, Pierce Salguero)

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Notable Quotes and Memorable Moments

• Willoughby Britton (on not publishing “bad” data):
  • “So that's my first confession.” (05:58)
  • “I was an evangelist. I wanted to promote this thing... it was causing insomnia, which is not what I wanted to have out there.” (07:30)
• On scientific assumptions:
  • “Why are all you psychologists trying to make meditation into a relaxation technique? Everyone knows if you meditate enough, you stop sleeping.” (08:28, meditation teacher)
• Pierce Salguero (on ancient wisdom):
  • “If you grew up in one of these Buddhist...cultures, you might sort of have the understanding that meditation, when you pick up meditation, you're playing with fire.” (25:05)
  • “The original purpose of this practice was to radically destabilize your sense of self...” (25:50)
• Scott Lippett (on his experience):
  • “It’d be like someone taking a strong psychedelic every day...but saying, ‘yeah, I’m gonna see the truth, and then everything will work.’ Or you could stop taking a strong psychedelic every day, you know?” (31:16)
• Advice from the historical record:
  • “Do not take too seriously any particular spiritual experience that happens, and particularly not taking it as an indication of your attainment of some high level of enlightenment.” (32:53)

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Timestamps for Key Segments

• 02:04—Britton’s introduction to meditation following a personal crisis
• 05:19–05:58—Unexpected study results and Britton’s first confession
• 10:48–11:30—Reports of meditation-induced psychiatric crises
• 13:44–14:43—Categorizing adverse meditation effects
• 16:43–17:56—Discussion with Richie Davidson on risk and prevalence
• 19:02–19:12—Deluge of distress calls and establishing a meditation hotline
• 24:02–26:44—Pierce Salguero’s analysis of ancient meditation warnings
• 27:08–31:40—Scott Lippett’s personal account of destabilizing experiences
• 32:08–34:24—Historical advice on balancing practice and recognizing danger

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Conclusion

Far from the universally calming, “relaxation technique” image sold in the West, meditation is revealed here—in both its history and its real-life outcomes—as a practice that can sometimes be radical, risky, and destabilizing. Science is only just beginning to catch up to what ancient sources, and many practitioners, have long known: The path to enlightenment can indeed be perilous. The episode calls for more nuanced awareness, better support for those who struggle, and a healthier, less zealous relationship with this powerful spiritual technology.

“Take a breath.” (35:45, closing admonition)

Transcript

[A]

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[B]

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[C]

My dad sent me a book by Jack Kornfield called A Path with Heart. And so that was my gateway drug.

[B]

Willoughby Britton is a scientist and a meditation expert, but back then she was in college and all she knew was her childhood friend had just died and she was spiraling.

[C]

It was sort of opened up the whole issue of mortality, which now I'm 50 and you're like, oh yeah, it's kind of obvious. But when you're young and it's the first person to have died who's also young, it just suddenly made me realize how vulnerable we are and I just became terrified. I just saw danger everywhere and just basically had an anxiety disorder. Now I would call it that.

[B]

Willoughby did not want to take anxiety meds, but she did like this book, A Path with A Guide through the Perils and Promises of Spiritual Life with author, meditation instructor and clinical psychologist Jack Kornfield.

[C]

I was like, okay, this guy knows what he's talking about because he's describing my experiences of Anxiety with, you know, extreme precision and detail. And it made me trust him to have a solution.

[B]

Did you start meditating a lot?

[C]

I did, yeah. I carried that book with me everywhere for probably a decade. And I had cassette tapes.

[D]

You may notice the feeling of each breath.

[C]

Remember cassette tapes of each half breath? I had boxes and boxes of cassette tapes.

[D]

You can trust the body. It knows how to breathe by itself.

[C]

Different, you know, meditation teachers teaching different things.

[B]

Set aside the usual mode in which we operate, that of more or less constant doing, and switch to a mode.

[A]

Of non doing, a mode of simply.

[C]

Being your interest, your enthusiasm is going to. There's my friend, there's the breath. There's the breath.

[B]

Willoughby became a meditator. She also just got interested in the mind and how to heal it. She ended up going to graduate school in clinical psychology and studying meditation.

[C]

As an academic, pretty much every paper I wrote was about meditation. And all of my instructors were like, can you write about something else, please?

[B]

Willoughby's like, nope. When it was dissertation time, she decided to study whether meditation could improve sleep. Her guess was that it probably would. But she's a scientist. She designed a test. She had two groups of subjects, and one of them went through a standard eight week mindfulness meditation course. The other group did nothing, just live their normal lives. Then they all came into the lab and Willoughby and her team recorded their brainwaves while they slept.

[C]

And when the data came in, it was like the complete opposite of what I expected. The meditation group had less deep sleep, faster brain waves, pretty much every measure you could have of cortical arousal. So, like being more awake, the meditation group had more and even worse or even more convincing that it was the meditation was that the more you meditated, the more each of those markers of arousal went up. There was really no way around it. It was a very clear finding. But because it was sort of the wrong answer, I just. I didn't publish it. I just sat on the data. So that's my first confession.

[B]

Willoughby was not ready to open that door. But eventually she would. In fact, she would become one of the main voices in a growing counter narrative within mental health that says meditation is not good for everyone. For some small group of people, it can get very, very bad. This is unexplainable. I'm Sally Helm. Today, when science tries to take on an ancient religious practice, it's not always an easy fit. What can psychology make of the adverse effects of meditation? And how do you tell the difference between a mental health crisis and a spiritual one? Scientists are not supposed to suppress data that doesn't line up with their worldview. Willoughby knows this. She believes in science. So the fact that she didn't publish that paper, it's. It shows how deep she was inside the meditation is great bubble.

[C]

You know, I was an evangelist. I wanted to promote this thing. And, you know, it wasn't promoting it. It was actually saying that it was causing insomnia, which is not what I wanted to have out there. And, I mean, it wasn't just me in a vacuum. I also now had lots of friends who were into meditation and Buddhism, and we were all evangelists. And so it didn't seem as sort of unethical and problematic as it does now. But, yeah, I didn't publish it.

[B]

I mean, I think I also can imagine you would be like, I'm a young scientist and can this be right? Like, the findings seem so clear, but seems wrong. Like, were you also just kind of like, maybe I messed this up somehow?

[C]

Yep, definitely. It was my second study. So, yeah, it was really different than anything else that was out there. You know, it's in the ether, it's in the water. Everybody's saying it's good for sleep.

[B]

Well, not everyone.

[C]

I remember going to a meditation retreat, and it was the kind of thing where you're asking questions for the teacher, like, after a day of practice. And I think somebody asked about, they're like, I am not sleeping or I'm, you know, having trouble, something about sleep. And then I, like, raised my hand and was like, oh, I just did a study on this, and I found that da, da, da. And that's when I got chastised. I remember a teacher saying, you know, I don't know why all you psychologists are trying to make meditation into a relaxation technique. Everyone knows if you meditate enough, you stop sleeping. And I was, like, completely blown away by that comment.

[B]

This teacher was kind of being like, meditation is not just about wellness. It's also about spiritual awakening. So if it's about awakening, maybe it's not surprising that it's not good for sleep.

[C]

And so that was a kind of slap in the face and also a wake up call to be like, what kind of assumptions do we have as mental health professionals or even just people, we think that meditation is a kind of therapy. And like, this teacher was like, it's. That's not at all what it's for.

[B]

By this point, Willoughby herself had trained as a meditation teacher. She'd studied with the legendary John Cabot Zinn, who created something called mindfulness Based stress reduction, which has been enormously influential. Scientists tend to study it because it's standardized and secular and it's also reached the masses. But it's just one particular version of a practice that's been around forever.

[C]

What I realized was that there were other meditation worlds that thought that the one that I was in was short sighted or naive or uninformed or just kind of like jv.

[B]

Whether it was JV or not. Willoughby was all in on this. Still studying clinical psychology. And near the end of her PhD, she did a residency at Brown University.

[C]

I was working in an inpatient psychiatric hospital. And that one year there were two people who had come off retreat and they were both completely psychotic. And so I went back to that.

[B]

Scene on meditation retreats who show up in the emergency room.

[C]

Well, at the psych hospital. Yes, at the psych hospital.

[B]

Okay.

[C]

And they like, they. Yeah. So they were there like for many days or weeks. Like not just, not just an emergency room visit, but like an inpatient hospital.

[B]

Two psychotic meditators in one year seemed like a lot. So Willoughby started asking around, kind of casually bringing it up at conferences or retreats.

[C]

And then people would come up to me and be like, that thing you said that happened to me. There were people like everywhere. It was impossible not to find people.

[B]

They told her about all kinds of experiences that didn't seem to line up with a story about meditation as this great therapeutic practice. Experiences that were painful or distressing or just weird. Willoughby was fascinated. So alongside her research on the benefits of meditation, she starts kind of like a secret little side gig, basically just.

[C]

Going to meditation teachers, really well known teachers that ran their own centers that had been doing it for decades, and just asked them, you know, what types of meditation related challenges have you seen and what do you do about it from there? A lot of the teachers would tell these stories about kind of like their worst case scenarios. And you know, they'd be like, well, let me see if that person will talk to you.

[B]

Willoughby ended up formalizing these conversations into a study, a way to start to map this part of the meditation terrain that psychologists seem to have barely charted. She and her team interviewed about 100 serious meditators and meditation teachers. All of them identified as Buddhist or at least doing Buddhist practices. But they were largely practicing in a Western context, largely white and Western meditators. That's who this study was about and really who it's for. The point was to formally interview these people about their self reported meditation challenges, symptoms that they had after meditating that Often went away if they stopped. A qualitative study like this interview based, it doesn't tell us anything about how frequent these problems are in the real world. It doesn't untangle all the possible confounding factors here. But it does begin to bring these unusual, usual meditation experiences into the realm of science, where they can be looked at more closely.

[C]

There's so many different kinds of experiences. Sometimes people would just feel like they're having almost like convulsions where they're just having kind of over all over body tics.

[B]

People reported visual symptoms.

[C]

You can start seeing lights that can look kind of like Christmas lights.

[B]

Some people re experienced past traumas or got intensely emotional, like panicking.

[C]

But we also see the opposite where people lose all emotion.

[B]

There were cognitive symptoms, like someone forgot what numbers were.

[C]

There was a number five on their, on their house, like a address number. And they were like, what is that shape? What is that? Is that some kind of Sanskrit or something? Like they just didn't remember that it was a 5 anymore.

[B]

It took years for Willoughby and her team to document and categorize these experiences. And the entire process, it highlights how tricky it can be for scientists to study a religious practice. For one thing, it wasn't easy to call all of these experiences adverse effects. Many of these people had struggled with the question of whether these symptoms were actually an important part of the spiritual path. Like, if you stop being so goal oriented, maybe that looks like losing motivation to live your life. Could be negative, or maybe it's the whole point of your practice. Get out of the productivity rat race. But some people in the study reported becoming suicidal, which these experienced Buddhist meditation teachers pretty universally said was not a good sign. Also, worrying symptoms that lined up with psychosis. Teachers described getting psychological intervention in those cases. And even some of the more ambiguous effects could be things that people just didn't want. This time Willoughby publishes the study, she is ready to put something out there that is very different from the standard meditation story within psychology. And that certainly goes against all the hype.

[E]

I would say that more than any other factor having any effect on my success, it's been meditation, man.

[C]

It's so hard to crystallize into one.

[B]

Thing how great meditation is.

[A]

If pharmaceutical companies could bottle up even a quarter of those benefits, it would be the best drug in the world.

[B]

Now look, there is of course still a lot of evidence that meditation can be good for you. I talked to another researcher who has published a ton on the benefits of meditation. His name is Richie Davidson, and he was Like I gotta remind you, for the vast majority of people, meditation is in fact, safe.

[D]

I would say for the average person, the risk for psychosis of meditation is not greater than the risk of walking down the street and producing psychosis.

[B]

As for why this happens to some people, scientifically, it's not clear. Willoughby has some ideas. She thinks some of the symptoms might be best described as side effects of concentration. You focus in so much on your breath that you almost put yourself in a sensory deprivation situation, but the brain likes a certain level of stimulation, so it ends up creating some of these strange symptoms. Richie was like, maybe, but there could be other things going on. We just don't have good evidence either way.

[D]

I think the kind of evidence you would need is hard to come by, and that would be having a sufficient number of cases where you can actually get recordings from them during these periods of decompensation. It's very challenging to do that kind of research.

[B]

By that, do you mean someone would have to be in an MRI machine while they're becoming psychotic after meditating? Something like that.

[D]

Yeah, something like that.

[B]

So, like, difficult. But Richie is pretty convinced that the danger here is limited to a small group of people, those with some kind of psychological risk factor, like a mental health disorder, and those involved in super intensive meditation practices. Obviously, there are many different kinds of meditation, and maybe you're more at risk if you're, like, going on long, silent meditation retreats. Willoughby agrees that those are risk factors, but she is adamant that they don't explain the entire phenomenon. She says there were people in the study who had, like, a squeaky clean psych history. And she has only gotten more convinced over time that the mental health world and the meditation world just really need to take all this more seriously.

[C]

I'm hearing the victim saying, like, people didn't believe me. Like, the teacher didn't believe me. The therapist, like, laughed in my face.

[B]

After she published the study, she started hearing from a lot of struggling meditators who felt like, finally, maybe this researcher can give me some answers.

[C]

The lab phone rang and rang and rang to the point where we were collecting data for another study. We had to actually turn it off because it was disrupting data collection.

[B]

Literally unplug the phone.

[C]

Yeah. And a university lab is not a hotline. That's not what we do. And so we basically had to create a hotline.

[B]

The people calling in are like, okay, science can argue about who exactly this happens to and why, but it's happening to me or to my kid. I need to figure out what to do? Like do I get therapy? Take medication? Read a thousand year old text about this? Uh, maybe that is after the break.

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[D]

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[B]

So after Willoughby publishes her study, her lab phone starts ringing off the hook with meditators in distress who are feeling confused, blindsided. But another person hears about Willoughby's research and is not surprised at all.

[D]

The kinds of symptoms that they have been describing to me were immediately recognizable as having analogues in historical texts. Now I thought to myself, isn't this interesting?

[B]

Pierce Salguero, professor of Asian History and Health Humanities at Penn State of course.

[D]

The language is completely different. They had their own medical paradigms that have to do with, you know, qi or with prana or with the four elements or with demons. But as a historian of medicine who specializes looking at how ideas are transmitted and translated across cultures, that's what I do. Without sacrificing our appreciation for the nuance, I still think we can say there's a thing here that people are pointing at and describing in different ways.

[B]

Pierce started a whole project with like 25 colleagues to translate accounts about meditation difficulties from ancient scriptural sources and medieval historical sources from India, China, Tibet. He said descriptions of negative meditation side effects go all the way back to the beginning of Buddhism. There are even descriptions of meditation problems from the Buddha himself.

[D]

He describes kinds of headaches and other sorts of symptoms that he had from doing meditation. You know, either too much or incorrectly or too intensely. And essentially, you know, this idea that meditation can cause harm in some cases, I don't want to overstate it, but it seems like it could be found pretty much in all places and all times within the Asian Buddhist tradition. It's also really well known just in society more generally. So I Don't think it would be surprising at all if you grew up in one of these Buddhist, historically Buddhist cultures, you might sort of have the understanding that meditation, when you pick up meditation, you're playing with fire.

[B]

That is part of the point.

[D]

The original purpose of this practice was to radically destabilize your sense of self in order to produce what in Buddhism is being sought after, which is a transformation in your consciousness, a loss of your sense of separate selfhood. You know, powerful mystical experiences that are going to transform your life permanently. And that these were being had, you know, by people in social contexts where they had left behind the world. Right. And gone off into monasteries or caves in order to do these practices. So if you're doing this practice because you expect to have a little stress reduction, and what happens is yourself gets destabilized and you start having, you know, weird mystical experiences, the practice is actually doing what it was intended to do.

[B]

Obviously, many people who meditate today are not monks. I'm from Los Angeles, and it's like you can barely order a coffee without being offered a side of meditation. So I wanted to talk to people who had had these radically destabilizing meditation experiences in our modern context. And I found someone who first got into meditation through a very secular source.

[E]

I think it was a For Dummies book, like that series.

[C]

Really?

[B]

Yeah.

[E]

And the first time I practiced meditation, it was quite a radical experience, I would say. And not everyone has that, you know, sometimes it happens later or. But I felt my mind become very still and very peaceful. I felt my body also deeply relax.

[B]

Scott Lippett started meditating when he was 15, and I really want to give him his due here. Like, he may have started with Meditation for Dummies, but after that he got really into Buddhist teachings. He studied the spiritual side of the practice. For years. He meditated regularly. 20 minutes in the morning, 20 minutes at night. And one evening, about five years in, he meditated in his college dorm on his special orange cushion.

[E]

I sat up and went to just do my bedtime routine, brushing my teeth. But when I looked in the mirror, I did not recognize myself necessarily. Like, felt as though it was a photo of me or I logically knew it was me, but it. It didn't have the felt sense of, oh, that's me. I almost felt like my thoughts and my ability to perceive the nuances and detail of them was that dial was turning up. And I've often described it as if anyone has experienced marijuana, maybe too much marijuana, and they've felt almost like Life is looking cartoony or almost started to feel like I was experiencing life frame by frame.

[B]

Even when you weren't meditating?

[E]

Yes, definitely. Towards the back end of those 10 years, that meditative state became my reality. Day to day.

[B]

He'd be in a work meeting at his environmental practice protection job and feel like, am I even really here?

[E]

I actually felt out of my body at that point, like, almost as though I was a foot behind myself just watching everything happen. And there was a lot of anxiety with that because I knew that I had to be participating in this meeting, but I was having a borderline psychedelic experience at the same time.

[B]

Not in a fun way.

[E]

No. Yeah. Not in a fun or not in an insightful way, just in a difficult and terrifying way. Yeah.

[B]

Now, Scott, he may not have been a monk, but he was also not unprepared for the idea that meditation could be radically destabilizing.

[E]

So much of my goal of meditation at that time was to free myself from the illusion of self. For some people, that might lead to a liberation and, like, deep peace and all of that. But for me, it. It led to a really cold and empty reality where not only was I feeling terrible, but I have no agency either. And what's the point? I think that's where that those kind of suicidal ideations came to play through all this.

[B]

Scott just kept meditating harder. That's kind of the message he got when he asked spiritual teachers what to do.

[E]

They're just like, oh, yes, you're in the dark night of the soul. You need to do X, Y, and Z. But if I look at the data, it's been five years of, like, immense and confusing suffering that was just leading me to be disconnected from family.

[B]

Scott eventually got treatment for depression, which helped, but he said a key thing that he had to do to get his life back was to stop meditating. And eventually the symptoms lifted.

[E]

I now view them as induced states. It'd be like someone taking a strong psychedelic every day and complaining about not feeling themselves or struggling with work and. But saying, like, yeah, but I'm gonna, like, see the truth, and then everything will work. It's like. Or you could stop taking a strong psychedelic every day, you know?

[B]

I talked to about five meditators who'd gotten into some kind of trouble, ranging from I had bouts of anxiety and maniacal laughing to my experience of time got extremely weird to I went to a meditation retreat, then landed in the hospital with psychosis. And several of them did what Scott did. When the going got weird, they meditated more. I asked Pierce what the historical texts would say about that.

[D]

So I think one of the ways that people get into trouble is this kind of like hardcore practicing, you know, having challenges and then meeting those challenges with even more intensive meditation, because it must be working. So these texts do warn explicitly against that kind of logic. And there's one of the kind of common refrains within these texts, too, is about not taking too seriously any particular spiritual experience that happens, and particularly not taking it as an indication of your attainment of some high level of enlightenment.

[B]

If we've lost the cultural sense that meditation can be radically destabilizing, maybe we've also lost the sense for when that goes too far. Pierce told me different cultures draw the line in different places, but consistently there is a line.

[D]

They say, you know, these are kind of like the normal expected kinds of challenges, and here's how to deal with them. And then here's something that's beyond the line where we can really classify this as a medical condition that needs specific medical interventions.

[B]

Some texts call it meditation sickness. Symptoms can line up with things will be found.

[D]

Things like depersonalization, depression, anxiety, psychosis. You know, these would be the labels that psychiatrists and contemporary medical practitioners would put on these conditions. I think it's important to underscore, though, that the Buddhist texts are suggesting that these kinds of symptoms may come and go within a meditation practice that can be managed in a certain way. You can pivot in your practice and the symptoms can be resolved. So it has more to do with, you know, your relationship to meditation, maybe not having proper balance in that relationship, rather than any inherent characteristic of you yourself or of meditation itself. It has more to do with the relationship between the two.

[B]

So, yeah, maybe our cultural relationship to meditation has gotten a little shallow. We think of it as relaxing, when actually it can be quite grueling. And for a practice that's often happening alone in silence, we do really talk about it a lot. But recently I've also found myself thinking about this whole other phenomenon. It's called the zeal of the convert. The idea is that people who convert to a new faith or discover a new practice, they tend to be way more fervent, way more intense than people who grew up in it. Which makes sense. You see it all the time. That person telling everyone about the cute new little diner they discovered. They probably don't live next door. I think a lot of people who discover meditation today practice it with a sense of zeal. Sometimes they become evangelists. They go all in. But when it comes to meditation. That fervor can lead to trouble if you have some intense experience and then double down. The advice from the historical texts seems to be something more like oh yeah, that, that's a thing. Don't get caught up in it. Just shift your focus. Do some other kind of practice for a while.

[D]

Take a breath.

[B]

This episode was reported and produced by me, Sally Helm, editing from Jorge Just with help from Joanna Solotarov, mixing and sound design from Christian Ayala, music from Noam Hassenfeld, and fact checking from Melissa Hirsch. Meredith Hodnot runs the show, Amy Padula is determined not to catch a cold, Julia Longoria is our editorial director, and Bert Pinkerton turned toward the Doctopus who was barely conscious and the doctopus let out a whisper. There's no time. You need to find the platypus, the one they call Platy Smith. Thanks as always to Brian Resnik for co creating the show along with Bird and Noam. And if you have any thoughts about the show, please send us an email. We are@ unexplainableox.com you can also leave us a review or a rating wherever you listen. That really helps us out. And if you are into supporting the show and all of Vox in general, join our membership program. You can go to vox.commembers to sign up. Unexplainable is part of the Vox Media Podcast Network and we'll see you next time.

[A]

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