The Vagina Voyages

Summary

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Podcast Summary: Unexplainable – "The Vagina Voyages"

Date: September 15, 2025
Host: Julia Longoria (Vox, Unexplainable)
Guest Host: Hilary Frank (Longest Shortest Time)
Guest Expert: Rachel Gross – Science Writer, Author of Vagina Obscura: An Anatomical Voyage

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Overview

In this episode, Unexplainable shares an interview from "The Longest Shortest Time" podcast, with Hilary Frank speaking to science writer Rachel Gross. Rachel, author of Vagina Obscura: An Anatomical Voyage, discusses the deep gaps in scientific and medical knowledge about the vagina and associated anatomy. The conversation is an eye-opening exploration of what science knows—and doesn’t—about female reproductive organs, why these gaps persist, and the cultural, medical, and scientific misconceptions that surround them.

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Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. Early Experiences with Sex Ed & The Stigma of Not Knowing

• Rachel recalls her fourth grade sex ed where asking a basic question about periods led to laughter from adults, discouraging future curiosity.

  “I was left with this impression that like, sex stuff was something you should already know and if not, you shouldn’t ask about it.” (Rachel Gross, 01:41)

2. The Structure and Mystery of the Clitoris

• Clitoral Anatomy:
  Misconceptions abound; many—including medical professionals—think of the clitoris as just a “nub.” Rachel explains it's a large, bird-like organ mostly hidden beneath the surface, with a structure similar to the penis.

  “That’s kind of like the beak of the clitoris. It’s the tip of the iceberg… There’s also a shaft that’s internal. And then from there, it kind of splits off...two arms that kind of arc out into the pelvis...and two bulbs that hug the vagina underneath.” (Rachel Gross, 05:01)

• Scientific Neglect:
  Historical anatomical studies were often incomplete, and naming conventions centered on shame (e.g., Greek “to adion” = shame part; Dutch “shamlippen” = shame lips).

  “If medicine had anything to say about the clitoris, it was that it was this small pea-sized structure…the nub idea, and that it was inappropriate to talk about.” (Rachel Gross, 07:26)

• Only for Pleasure:
  The clitoris is unique in the body for serving only pleasure.

  “The clitoris is very nerve dense. However, fun fact, actually, there’s more like 10,280 nerves...” (Rachel Gross, 08:42–09:42)

  • Recent research revised the classic “8,000 nerves” figure, previously estimated based on cow studies (!).
• Cultural Myths About Orgasms:
  Freud’s claims about “vaginal” versus clitoral orgasms led to generations of women believing they were “broken” if they didn’t orgasm during penetrative sex.

  “…it made me pretty enraged…how many generations were given the impression that their bodies were uniquely broken…” (Rachel Gross, 10:52)

3. The Marie Bonaparte Story: Science, Sex, and Self-Experimentation

• Marie Bonaparte, Napoleon’s grandniece, became Freud’s patient and collaborator, obsessed with understanding her inability to orgasm. She pioneered research correlating clitoral position with sexual pleasure—interviewing and measuring hundreds of women.

  “She was also taking measurements of the distance between the clitoris and the urethra…She published these in a medical journal under a pen name—a male pen name.” (Rachel Gross, 14:58–15:22)

• Bonaparte underwent experimental surgeries to move her clitoris closer to her vagina, hoping to fix her “problem”—with disastrous results.

  “Spoiler. That did not turn out well for her. She had it done a few times and it was not good…” (Rachel Gross, 15:57–16:19)

4. The Vagina: Science, Molds, and Animal Surprises

• Defining the Vagina:
  A stretchy, muscular tube connecting the vulva and uterus, with the cervix as a “muscular donut” (Rachel’s memorable phrasing). (19:02–19:32)

• Penis-Centric Science:
  Scientific fascination has favored easily visible organs, leading to elaborate descriptions of animal penises—but little on vaginas.

  “There are penises that can taste, smell, and sing…Penises kind of just hang out in contrast to the more internal female apparatus.” (Rachel Gross reading, 19:57–20:41)

• Why Are Vaginas Understudied?

  “We put a rover on Mars. You’re telling me we really can’t study vaginas?” (Rachel Gross, 20:54)

• Patricia Brennan and Vagina ‘Lollipops’:
  Dr. Patti Brennan pioneered making latex molds of animal vaginas (initially snakes)—to map their complex, non-uniform interiors.

  “She invited me to make vagina lollipops with her on snakes. And so snakes have two vaginas… The result was this two headed lollipop...” (Rachel Gross, 23:11–24:58)

• Wild Facts: Vaginal Diversity

  • Dolphins: clitorises the size of AA batteries
  • Bonobos: clitorises up to 2.5 inches
  • Kangaroos: three vaginas—two for sperm, one for birthing (Joey ejection, 25:58)

5. The Human Vagina’s Unknowns: Medical Gaps

• Even for humans, basic anatomical diversity is poorly mapped. The only serious study—a tampon mold project—was cut short by lack of funding. Medical devices and surgeries for vaginas are still designed with little knowledge of anatomical variation.

  “...in their field, the vulva is basically like a small city in the Midwest and OB GYNs drive through it to get to their real destination, the uterus, where real medicine happens.” (Rachel Gross, 28:00)

• Vaginal microbiome: Still poorly understood, but linked to infections, STIs and reproductive health.
  (28:22)

6. Uterus and Ovaries: Powerhouses & Myths

• Functions Beyond Reproduction:
  Ovaries are hormone generators, impacting bones, blood, brain, and more.

  “They're these hormone powerhouses that help power almost every organ in the body for most of your life.” (Rachel Gross, 30:32)

• Wandering Womb & Hysteria:
  Myths from ancient Greece claimed the uterus wandered the body, causing illness and “female madness.” These lurked in medicine for centuries; unnecessary surgeries like ovary removal were common.

  “A very common surgery in the late 1800s was the removal of healthy ovaries in the thought that it would cure forms of insanity, including hysteria.” (Rachel Gross, 31:47)

• Endometriosis: For years, dismissed as “women’s pain” or hysteria. Extreme treatments—from forced pregnancy to hysterectomy—still get suggested.

  “Pregnancy is a bonkers prescription for any disease, but especially for endometriosis, where infertility is a known complication.” (Hilary Frank, 33:53)

7. Healthcare Misadventures: The Nuclear Option

• Both hosts share personal stories of doctors pushing drastic, misguided solutions for pelvic pain—including surgery, and, for Rachel, a memorable prescription:

  “When I was 29, I was once prescribed rat poison for my own vagina.” (Rachel Gross, 35:02)

  • Boric acid (used to treat persistent vaginal infections) led her to accidentally swallow it, resulting in an ER visit.

8. The High Cost of Ignorance & Hope for Change

• Scientific neglect means worse health, persistent myths (e.g., the “G spot” as a single button), and misunderstanding of pleasure and pain.

  “We’ve been studying female anatomy in a really narrow way …that really warps the kind of scientific knowledge you’re going to get and has actually resulted in worse health care for millions of people.” (Rachel Gross, 37:12–38:29)

• Rachel argues for a holistic, pleasure- and health-centered approach to pelvic anatomy, and for discarding “reproductive organ” as the sole descriptor—these organs influence overall health, mood, and wellbeing.

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Notable Quotes

• On scientific priorities:

  “We put like a rover on Mars… you’re telling me we really can’t study vaginas?” (Rachel Gross, 20:54)

• On medical frustration:

  “The clitoris has 8,000 nerves and still isn’t as sensitive as a white man on the Internet.” (Quoted tweet by Rachel Gross, 08:42)

• On anatomical complexity:

  “She was kind of trying to find clitorises in almost every type of animal. So she was kind of, like, remapping the genital landscape of life on earth.” (Rachel Gross on Dr. Patti Brennan, 24:58)

• On misconceptions about female pleasure:

  “Every orgasm comes in some way from the clitoris, whether it’s like, internally or externally stimulated.” (Rachel Gross, 10:43)

• On enduring medical misogyny:

  “In their field, the vulva is basically like a small city in the Midwest—and OB/GYNs, they drive through it to get to their real destination, which is the uterus.” (Rachel Gross, 28:00)

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Timestamps for Key Segments

• Rachel’s Sex Ed Memory & Origins as a Science Writer: 01:36–02:45
• What is the Clitoris, Really?: 05:01–07:05
• Historical Scientific Neglect & Misconceptions: 07:26–09:42
• Freud, Marie Bonaparte, and the ‘Vaginal vs. Clitoral’ Orgasm Debate: 11:30–16:19
• The Vagina: Definition and Study Bias: 19:02–20:41
• Patricia Brennan’s Vagina ‘Lollipops’ and Kangaroo Fact: 23:11–25:58
• Medical Field’s Vagina Blindspots: 27:19–28:00
• Uterus, Ovaries, and Longstanding Myths: 30:32–31:47
• Stories of Medical Overreach & Rat Poison Incident: 35:02–36:28
• Call for More Research and Value Beyond Reproduction: 37:12–38:54

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Memorable Moments

• Bird-like clitoris, snake vagina molds, and kangaroo triple vaginas established a mix of humor and scientific awe.
• Multiple personal stories showcased the emotional toll of misinformation, with both guests having faced dismissive or bizarre medical “solutions”.
• Rachel eating her “vagina rat poison” (boric acid) was both alarming and comically conveyed, demonstrating the real-world consequences of lack of research.

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Conclusion

"The Vagina Voyages" is a spirited, deeply informative journey into the scientific, cultural, and personal mysteries surrounding the vagina, led by author Rachel Gross. The episode challenges the listener to confront their own assumptions, highlights the dire gaps in anatomical research, and issues a call for curiosity, compassion, and comprehensive study. It is part medical history, part cultural critique, and entirely unmissable for anyone interested in the untold science of half the human population.

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For more on Rachel Gross’s work, including visual depictions of the “vagina and friends,” visit longestshortesttime.com.
Her book, Vagina Obscura, is available wherever books are sold.

Transcript

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This is unexplainable. I'm Julia Longoria. Today we have an episode from our friends at the podcast the Longest, Shortest Time. I've been a longtime listener of the show. Host Hilary Frank tells fascinating and heartbreaking stories about parenthood and reproductive health. But you definitely don't need to be a parent to listen in the episode we'll share with you. Today, Hillary talks to science writer Rachel Gross about vaginas. Scientists know shockingly little about this part of the body, so Rachel went on a mission to find out why. Here's the host, Hilary Frank.

[C]

Rachel Gross has a vivid memory of sex ed in fourth grade, being in.

[B]

A dark room with all the other fourth grade girls and their moms learning about periods. And my mom was not there because she was like a doctor on call. But, but I remember like trying to understand and having never heard about a period and like asking a question. And I asked, so is it like peeing where you can control it and like hold it in? And they all laughed at me. Oh, that's such a good question. Thank you. All the moms laughed at me, but I like never ever wanted to ask a question again after that. And I was left with this impression that like, sex stuff was something you should already know and if not, you shouldn't ask about it.

[C]

Rachel's need to ask about it could not be suppressed. In fact, she's made a career of asking about it. She's a science writer and a lot of her work is about sex stuff, specifically the vagina. Rachel wrote a whole book about vaginas. It's called Vagina Obscura. An Anatomical Voyage. That's right A voyage I was really.

[B]

Thinking about, like, Ms. Frizzle and her magic school bus and kind of taking this deep dive into the human body as if it was like the core of the earth or a planet out in space.

[C]

This is the Longest, Shortest Time. I'm Hilary Frank, and today you're in for a treat because Rachel Gross is here to take us on a vaginal voyage. You're gonna learn things you didn't know, things I didn't know, things Rachel didn't know before writing this book. Here at the Longest, Shortest Time, we love telling stories about stuff that's hard to understand. For example, our episode Mama Don't Understand, about a mixed race kid who tries to communicate to her white mom what it means to be black through a freestyle rap. You can find it in your podcast feed. It's the episode right before this one. Now, when Rachel set out to write her book, her mission was to understand the vagina. And she did learn lots of cool stuff.

[B]

But as I started to do the actual reporting and research, I realized that it was also a book about these, like, gaps in our knowledge and why there was so much that we didn't know about half the bodies on Earth.

[C]

So we'll also talk about those gaps and the questions Rachel still has about vaginas. So your book Vagina Obscura walks us through female reproductive anatomy from the outside in. And I thought we could do something similar here.

[B]

Ooh.

[C]

So let's start with the outside, the stuff we can see. Let's start with the clitoris.

[B]

My favorite.

[C]

Before I read your book, I thought the clitoris was the little nub above the opening of the vagina.

[B]

Me too.

[C]

And I've, like, I have gone and asked, like, my male editor, my husband, what do you think?

[B]

The clitoris is amazing.

[C]

And they both were like, oh, it's the little nub. Right. So can you describe what the clitoris actually is?

[B]

Yeah. And I love that you just went and, like, asked them that. And I. That's something I really admire, actually. Yeah. So. So the actual clitoris, let's start with. You know, I don't love calling it like, that nub, but because we all know where that is. We all can, like, see or touch it. We'll just start with that. That's kind of like the beak of the clitoris. It's kind of the tip of the iceberg.

[C]

The beak.

[B]

Yeah. Well, I think of the clitoris often as sort of a, like, bird like, or alien like, structure. So. So think of that as a beak. There's also a shaft that's internal. And then from there, there it kind of splits off. So there are these two arms that kind of arc out into the pelvis and they have a wingspan of about 9 centimeters on average. And there's two bulbs, like teardrop shaped bulbs that hug the vagina underneath that. And the bulbs and the arms are both made of erectile tissue, exactly the same as the columns of erectile tissue in the penis, which just means that they can also fill with blood and grow erect when you're aroused. And that whole structure is really connected to a lot of parts of the pelvis, including the vagina and the labia, the inner and outer labia, and it all works together. And I think often we're kind of made to fragment the parts of the female genitals and think of them as separate. So the clitoris to me is like this great connector that is this like majestic structure that's just like entwined and like can't be like separated from all the parts around it. And I basically kind of think of the penis and the clitoris as like exact same ingredients, different configuration. So like taco burrito.

[C]

So we now know the general bird like shape of the clitoris. Right? Caca.

[B]

Sorry, can't help myself.

[C]

What did science know about the clitoris before that was all revealed?

[B]

For centuries, actually millennia. If medicine had anything to say about the clitoris, it was that it was like this small pea sized structure, the nub idea, and that it was like inappropriate to talk about. So the first word I could find for the clitoris was like a Greek word that Hippocrates used that I will butcher. That's like to adion. It means the shame part. And anatomist following that would continue to give names basically like that. So there was a French name that meant the shameful member. And today in like Dutch and German, you still have shamlippen, which is the shame lips, and refers to the labia. So as you look at like the 1700s and 1800s, you actually find that anatomists come very close to describing the full clitoris. So like the internal structure that we talked about. But either their discoveries are like lost or no one pays attention, or scientists criticize them and say like, well, these bulbs can't possibly be part of the clitoris because the clitoris is something like tiny and diminutive.

[C]

Well, maybe we should talk about function also. What is the function of the clitoris?

[B]

Yeah, right, great point. The function of the clitoris is to experience pleasure. I guess it's the Only organ in the human body whose sole function is pleasure. And it is very good at that. Have you ever seen that tweet that's like, the clitoris has 8,000 nerves and still isn't as sensitive as a white man on the Internet? Classic tweet. So, yeah, the clitoris is very nerve dense. However, fun fact, actually, there's more like 10,280 nerves, which is something we learned in 2022. Until then, we were relying on studies from the 70s on cows, possibly just one cow. So that, to me, is a quite revealing kind of backstory of like, wow, it really took that long to decide that it was worth doing this research on human women and people with clitorises to understand that.

[C]

How do they do that research?

[B]

Actually, I'm glad you asked. It's kind of amazing. It was a gender affirmation surgeon named Dr. Blair Peters and a vulva specialist named Dr. Maria Uloko. And they actually used a extra clitoral tissue from bottom surgeries done on trans men, which does mean the clitorises were, like, treated with testosterone, but, like, it was still human clitoris. So, you know, like the exact number of nerve fibers. Is it that important? Maybe not so much. What's important is that this is an incredibly, like, sensitive and dense organ that experiences a great amount of pleasure. And what's kind of crazy is that throughout history, a lot of thinkers, but particularly Freud, have been convinced that people with vaginas and clitorises should only feel one kind of orgasm. And it was the vaginal orgasm, which he basically coined and is biologically not really a thing. Like, every orgasm comes in some way from the clitoris, whether it's, like, internally or externally stimulated. And for most people with clitoris, it doesn't happen magically for a missionary. So there's a lot of misinformation about, I guess, the science of sexual pleasure. And it made me pretty enraged, I guess, writing this book to realize, like, how many generations were given the impression that their bodies were uniquely broken and they couldn't conform to, like, social pressures, telling them exactly how they should experience pleasure.

[C]

There's this fascinating story you tell in the book about a woman named Marie Bonaparte who plays a big role in our understanding of the clitoris. Can you tell us who Marie Bonaparte was and, you know, why was she obsessed with the clitoris and what did she learn?

[B]

Yeah, so Marie Bonaparte was a princess and a noblewoman, and she was the great grandniece of Napoleon. And she, in her 40s, became a. A patient of Freud, and then A bestie of Freud, which is important to the story. She actually ended up helping smuggle him out of France when the Nazis invaded. And he was buried in a Grecian urn that she gave him as a gift. Oh, wow. So, like, there was. It's just like, a fascinating kind of connection that I was never aware of. And just like, the kind of. The mythology of Freud often doesn't mention this, like, pretty important connection, relationship in his life. And so Marie always wanted to be a doctor, but her father basically forbade that because he needed her to focus on marrying rich because the family inheritance was not doing so well. But she was always very, like, sexually adventurous, actually, especially after she got married. She described her affairs pretty openly, including one with the French prime minister. She wrote a lot about them in her journals and in letters that I was able to read at, like, the Library of Congress. So she basically rarely, possibly never had an orgasm when she was having these sexual encounters. And she really, really wanted to. And as she started reading Freud, she thought she figured out her problem. And she basically said, like, that her clitoris seemed to be this, like, center of her power and pleasure, but also it was, like, inappropriately masculine. And Freud had written that at some point, a woman needs to give up her clitoris as her source of pleasure and transfer her orgasm to the vagina, which, again, is scientifically impossible and makes no sense.

[C]

Why did he say that?

[B]

This is kind of the root of penis envy. So, yeah, the idea of penis envy was, like, at some point, a little girl realizes that she doesn't have penis, what a little boy has, and that she's kind of, like, envious for the rest of her life.

[C]

Okay, so back to Marie Bonaparte.

[B]

Yeah, yeah, yeah. So she felt like she was too masculine, and this made her frigid in the parlance of the time. And she wanted to know how other women were handling the situation. So she actually ended up, like, fulfilling her lifelong dream of being a researcher, a medical researcher. And she started doing research. She followed around, like, hundreds of women to their gynecology appointments, and she would ask them very, like, intimate sexual questions. I would love to know how she did this, but she did it. And what she concluded was that women who were having regular orgasms during intercourse had clitoris that were closer to their vagina.

[C]

Was she measuring.

[B]

Yes, sorry. She was also taking measurements of the distance between the clitoris and the urethra.

[C]

Or clitoris and vagina, like, at their gynecology appointments.

[B]

Dude. There are not details in the methodology on this paper, but I would Love to see. I don't know if she asked the gynecologist, but she does have diagrams. It's. Yeah. Incredible. And she published these in a medical journal under a pen name.

[C]

A male pen name.

[B]

A male pen name. Yes. So she basically did this research and then she decided like, you know, Freud had famously said, anatomy is destiny. And she was like, well, I disagree. I'm not okay with this situation. What if I just changed my anatomy and therefore change my destiny? So she decided to get genital surgery to move her clitoris closer to her vagina.

[C]

Wow. Because of her hypothesis that the shorter distance meant you were more likely to have an orgasm.

[B]

Exactly. So, spoiler. That did not turn out well for her. She had it done a few times and it was not good. I mean, this was the 1920s. Any sort of surgery is not going to be fun, let alone that one. But it didn't give her the. The outcome that she wanted.

[C]

It seems so obvious that surgically cutting and moving the most nerve dense part of your body would not result in pleasurable feelings. Yet another example of how following misguided medical advice can lead to a terrible outcome. More on that later. But when we come back, Rachel will share some amazing research being done on vaginas and what she says we still need to understand.

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[B]

Yeah, the vagina is like the muscular tube that connects the vulva, which is like the outside genitalia, the stuff that you can see and touch with the uterus and the cervix. And the cervix is. People hate when I say this, but it's like the muscular donut that keeps the uterus closed, I guess. So it's the connecting tube. It's a stretchy tube.

[C]

So you found that the penis has been studied far more than the vagina, which, sadly is not surprising. But there's an amazing passage from your book about this and I'd like to have you read it. Okay, so can you open your book to page 63?

[B]

Yeah.

[C]

And then this is the paragraph starting with. Biologists love penises.

[B]

Great biologists love penises, and with good reason. They're some of the most wildly varying organs in the animal kingdom. There are penises that can taste, smell, and sing. Ones that look like corkscrews, crowbars, and glowing blue lightsabers. A penis can stretch up to nine times your body length. If you're a barnacle, be a detachable tentacle covered in suckers. If you're an argonaut octopus or even c using light sensing cells that guide it to its destination. If you're a Japanese yellow swallowtail butterfly, they're also easy to study. Penises kind of just hang out in contrast to the more internal female apparatus.

[C]

So that is like beautiful writing. It's very poetic. It's clear that penises are fascinating, but it seems like vaginas would be too. So why haven't they been studied as much?

[B]

Great question, side note, took my fact checker And I like 2 hours to confirm the glowing blue lightsabers description. It's a form of like tropical slug. But she was like, that can't be true. So we were like sending Google images back and forth and they do exist. So happily, that statement could remain. Amazing. Yeah, I mean, that is the question. And if you talk to biologists, many male biologists, they will often say that the female genitals are internal and that makes them harder to study. And I don't know, I just wasn't buying that. That's like we put like a rover on Mars. Like, you're telling me we really can't study vaginas. So I ended up talking to the. The vagina biologist, I guess her name is Patti Brennan and she's a Columbian biologist at Mount Holyoke University in Massachusetts. And she was, I guess, the first person to really dissect a duck vagina. And she had been looking actually at penises in birds, which are only in like 1 to 2% of birds. And they get a lot of attention because there are these really crazy structures that are like corkscrew shaped like torture devices that just like spring out of the mail.

[C]

Ouch.

[B]

Yeah, I mean, both ouch. And also like, I guess they deserve a lot of attention because they're wild. But until her, basically no one had said, like, okay, so that penis is not like just for show. It's interacting with the vagina. So what is the vagina doing? And when she started looking, she found that the vagina was like equally complex and crazy and kind of was like this like roller coaster that had all these curves and turns and even like blind alleys where sperm went to die. So it was very complex and it was like in conversation with that penis.

[C]

So this researcher, Patti Brennan, who you've been talking about, she told you that she makes vaginal lollipops for a living. Can you explain what that means?

[B]

Yes. So she. I just want to mention that the technique itself is kind of amazing. She wanted to make molds of vaginas which are internal structures. So you would have to like put something up there and take it out like a cast. And so she talked to a dentist about how to use dental latex. So the same way they might make like a mold of your teeth to make a retainer. And so she invited me to make vagina lollipops with her on snakes. And so snakes have two vaginas because the males have kind of this forked penis, the hemipene. So we were putting the dental latex up there, letting it harden, and then like gently removing it with a toothpick. And the result was this like two headed lollipop on a live snake or. Oh no, Siri, dead snake. Yeah, it was pretty gross to me. Like, actually I was really amazed because I was like kind of gagging a little bit and there were all these like parasites and they were like getting on her iPhone. But she was so excited she was, like, taking all these photos, and she wasn't like, noticing because she was just, like, so engaged. And I was like, damn. I also found out then that snakes have clitorises. They have clitorises, which she wrote a paper about later, but she was. Sorry. So sorry. So, like, in addition to making a lot of vaginal molds, she was kind of trying to find clitorises in almost every type of animal. So she was kind of, like, remapping the genital landscape of life on earth.

[C]

Earlier, you read your list of the variations in penises across different species. After meeting Dr. Brennan. Do you have a vagina equivalent list?

[B]

That's great. Yes. She had looked at dolphin clitorises, which are, like, the size of a double A battery. And, like, bonobos have massive clitorises that can have erections up to 2.5 inches long. But I'm pretty sure that my favorite is the kangaroo vagina, because kangaroos actually have three vaginas, so they have, like. I know. I just love this fact. And I love that if you look it up, like, there are a lot of diagrams online, because people were just like, what? So, yeah, I don't know. I think about this at least, like, once a week. There's, like, one common portal, and then it splits off. There's, like, one middle vagina and two side vaginas, and the side ones are for sperm uptake, and the middle one is for Joey ejection.

[C]

Joey ejection, where the baby is born?

[B]

Yeah, for delivering the baby. But that basically means that a kangaroo can be pregnant at all times because she has two uteruses. So I feel really bad for those kangaroos.

[C]

So all of this research that Dr. Brennan has done, it's really cool and interesting. Does it apply to humans?

[B]

What Dr. Brennan told me was that when she was looking into, I think, dolphin vaginas and having this idea of making the kind of lollipops or latex casts, she was looking at what we know about the anatomy of human vaginas and realized that we actually know a lot less than we know about even some animal vaginas. Like, I think there was one, like, tampon company that had started to kind of measure vaginal sizes and shapes, but then I think, ran out of funding. So there's kind of been this assumption in gynecology that if a vagina can, like, stretch and, like, incorporate a penis and deliver a baby, that's, like, good enough. We don't, like, really need to know the exact anatomy, so we don't have a good understanding of the diversity of human vaginas.

[C]

This tampon study by a now defunct company called TAM Brands was supposed to determine whether they should modify their tampon design to better fit most vaginas. This study actually used the dental latex technique 10 years before Patti Brennan. It's where she got the idea to make vagina lollipops in the first place. It turned out that vagina shape didn't matter for something like a tampon, because a tampon can expand to fit any vagina. But Rachel says the same kind of research would have been helpful for tailoring vaginal devices and medications and for having reference models for vaginal reconstructive surgery for which we still don't really have.

[B]

And like, I've talked to doctors who say that like in their field, the vulva is basically like a small city in the Midwest and OB GYN's like, they drive through it to get to their real destination, which is the uterus, where like real medicine happens because that's where you do like PAP smears and IUDs and childbirth.

[C]

Rachel also wishes we knew more about the vaginal microbiome, which would teach us about how to prevent and battle long term vaginal infections and STIs and pregnancy problems like preterm birth. She says she's hopeful because there are some studies in progress that could help with these kinds of issues. But for now, like an ob GYN on a mission, we're gonna head to the uterus, which, and this will shock you, has been understudied as well.

[A]

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[C]

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[A]

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[C]

So take us deeper on our voyage. Let's go to the uterus and ovaries first. Can you just remind us what these organs are for sure.

[B]

So the ovaries are the two, like, kind of almond sized glands on either side of the uterus, and they do produce eggs. But I think, like, almost more importantly, they're these hormone powerhouses that help power almost like every organ in the body for most of your life. So, like, your bone health, your blood, your brain health. Like, ovaries are supporting all of those by producing estrogen, some testosterone, and other hormones as well. And even after menopause, they may be producing some. And the uterus is a very muscular organ that's like the size of a fist. And it's most famous for creating and delivering babies. But it also is really dynamic throughout a person's life. It is creating a new lining every month and then shedding it and then starting over, which is menstruation.

[C]

So there are some really wild myths about the uterus that doctors and scientists used to believe. Can you name what some of those are?

[B]

Yeah, I think the most well known myth is that of, like, the wandering womb. And that was an idea in, like, ancient Greece that the uterus was kind of an animal that, like, wandered throughout the body in search of, like, sex and blood. And if he wasn't getting those things, then it would, like, wreak havoc and cause, like, health issues and like, asphyxiation and fainting, which got tied in with this idea of hysteria. So hysteria, the idea that women are uniquely, like, neurotic and prone to, like, nervous breakdown was often connected with their reproductive organs, either the uterus or the ovaries. A very common surgery in the late 1800s was the removal of healthy ovaries in the thought that it would cure forms of, like, insanity, as it was thought of at the time, including hysteria. And I write a lot in the book about endometriosis, which is a disorder in which, like, bits of tissue start growing throughout the pelvis, usually that are very similar to the lining of the uterus. And they try to grow and then shed in a way that can be immensely painful and, like, harmful to your other organs. And, like, very little Was known about this disorder for centuries, Even though about 1 in 10 people with uteruses have it. And it was sometimes described as, like, the new hysteria. And part of the reason was that doctors were just kind of like, huh, happens to women. A lady thing, like, mysterious pain that they thought kind of made them look crazy or emotional because they hadn't looked at the biological basis of it. And I talked to women who were told that they should just get pregnant in order to fix their endometriosis.

[C]

Pregnancy is a bonkers prescription for any disease, but especially for endometriosis, where infertility is a known complication. And to make things even more confusing, another common remedy doctors have prescribed for endometriosis is hysterectomy. Removing the uterus, a surgery that leaves you incapable of becoming pregnant. These approaches are opposite and extreme.

[B]

And it's kind of like, what's that phrase about, like, just using a hammer to do some, like, tiny job? It's kind of like the nuclear option.

[C]

In her reporting, Rachel found plenty of examples of doctors taking extreme actions for all sorts of issues surrounding the vagina. If you've got a vagina, chances are you've got your own version of this story. I've got mine. Like, when a doctor suggested that in order to cure my pain from my episiotomy scar, she would just graft skin from inside my vagina and pull it to the outside. Or when another told me the answer was to have a second baby so my scar would blow open and heal better. Rachel has her own nuclear option story.

[B]

Well, I often tell this story about how when I was 29, I was once prescribed rat poison for my own vagina.

[C]

Like literal rat poison?

[B]

Like literal rat poison. Like, the gynecologist told me that if I looked it up on the Internet, it was going to say, this is rat poison. It's called boric acid. So this was like a last resort prescription After I'd had this, like, months long bacterial infection. And they tried, like, antifungals, antibacterials, and nothing had worked. So my gynecologist told me, go to the pharmacy and get boric acid. And it came in these, like, big plastic capsules that look basically like antibiotics, and they were actually suppositories. So you had to put them up in your vagina every night and then, like, lay on your back. But one night I was, like, very exhausted and I woke up in the middle of the night and I was in the bathroom and, like, remembered that I had to take this pill. And I got Confused, and I swallowed it. So I swallowed my vagina poison and I ended up in the er. And at that point, I have to tell the doctors that I have swallowed rat poison that was supposed to go in my vagina.

[C]

Rachel wound up being fine. She hadn't swallowed enough boric acid for it to be lethal or even that harmful, and the infection eventually went away, though she's not sure the rat poison helped. But after her long vaginal voyage, talking to doctors and patients and scientists, one thing is clear. We need more research on female anatomy. We still are not capable of seeing sperm enter the uterus and unite with an egg or the fertilized egg's journey down the fallopian tube to the uterus. We haven't seen what it looks like when endometriosis lesions take root. All we have are fuzzy snapshots from ultrasounds or views of cells outside the body under a microscope.

[B]

Not doing these studies means that, like, we continue to have worse healthcare and shitty solutions like boric acid. And I mean, like, look at our maternal death rate. Like, we clearly need more studies, even infertility. And we just, like, don't fully understand how all these parts work together and the vast variation of anatomies. There are myths, like the idea that the G spot is this magic button that you can just press and we know where it is. And really, everyone's anatomy is different in a beautiful way. How is it different? Nobody knows. We haven't done those studies. What we do know is that we've been studying female anatomy in a really narrow way that I would argue mostly has to do with disease and reproduction. And that leaves so much by the wayside that has to do with, like, quality of life and pleasure and pain. And a theme of a lot of what I write is, like, that really warps the kind of scientific knowledge you're going to get and has actually resulted in, like, worse health care for millions of people.

[C]

Rachel says things are improving slowly, especially with treatment around endometriosis. And she kind of wishes we didn't call reproductive organs reproductive organs, because then we're not recognizing that creating babies is only one function of these organs, and they also provide pleasure. And they play an active role in overall health, including the brain and moods and neurological conditions.

[B]

So sometimes I say, like, the vagina et al, or the vagina and Friends, the pelvic organs is a super clinical way of looking at it.

[C]

Rachel's book about the vagina and friends is called Vagina obscura. You can find a link to it in the show notes or at our website longestshortesttime.com We've also got links to other incredible writing she's done and depictions of the vagina and friends that are better than any images you saw in sex ed, including 3D models of the clitoris and its bird like structure. Cacao this episode was produced by me, Hilary Frank, with support from Elizabeth Nakano. Our Technical Director is Michael Rayfiel. Music composed by Alison Leighton Brown and performed by Hotmoms.gov follow the longest, shortest Time on Apple Podcasts or Spotify or wherever you're listening right now. Please do this for us. It is so super simple. Just the click of a button and it helps us to rise in the charts so other people can find the show. And if you want to suggest story ideas to us, be a part of our community and generally support our work, join us at lstplus. It's easy, just go to longestshortesttime.com/club.

[A]

Mike and Alyssa are always trying to outdo each other. When Alyssa got a small water bottle, Mike showed up with a 4 liter jug. When Mike started gardening, Alyssa started beekeeping. Oh come on. They called a truce for their holiday and used Expedia Trip Planner to collaborate on all the details of their trip. Once there, Mike still did more laps around the pool. Whatever you were made to outdo your holidays. We were made to help organize the competition. Expedia made to travel.