Unexplainable Podcast Episode Summary: "Why I Left the NIH"

Introduction

In the June 18, 2025 episode of Unexplainable by Vox, host Noam Hassenfeld engages in a profound conversation with Francis Collins, a towering figure in modern science. Collins, renowned for leading the Human Genome Project and directing the National Institutes of Health (NIH) under three U.S. presidents, shares his experiences and the tumultuous circumstances that led to his resignation from the NIH. The discussion delves into the intersection of science, politics, and public trust, offering deep insights into the current challenges facing scientific institutions in America.

Francis Collins: A Legacy of Scientific Excellence

Noam Hassenfeld ([01:01]) introduces Francis Collins as one of the most influential scientists of recent decades. Collins' leadership in the Human Genome Project earned him the Presidential Medal of Freedom, and his role in developing the COVID-19 vaccine under Trump's administration saved millions of lives. His tenure at the NIH spanned 32 years, during which he navigated the agency through various political landscapes.

The Downfall at the NIH Under the Current Administration

Collins recounts the abrupt and unsettling changes that unfolded at the NIH following the inauguration of the current administration. Noam Hassenfeld ([02:49]) expresses his concerns about the recent chaos, citing cuts, firings, and halted grants. Collins elaborates on the immediate challenges:

"Almost immediately after Inauguration Day... Everybody gets up and we all start talking to each other... It can't be right." ([03:12]—Francis Collins)

An initial email directive halted the commencement of new projects, restricting research to ongoing endeavors. This led to widespread disbelief and anxiety among NIH employees. The situation escalated rapidly, with over 1,000 employees being suddenly terminated. These firings remain contested in court, leaving many researchers unemployed. Additionally, studies on sensitive topics like vaccine hesitancy and the health impacts of wildfires were abruptly forbidden, accompanied by restrictive gag orders that silenced scientists:

"No scientists... were permitted to speak to in any kind of setting... effectively muzzled." ([04:26]—Francis Collins)

Erosion of Public Trust in Science

A significant portion of the discussion focuses on the declining trust in scientific institutions, a trend that intensified during the COVID-19 pandemic. Collins attributes this erosion to the necessity of revising recommendations as new data emerged, which led to public confusion and skepticism:

"Covid did a lot of harm to people's trust in science... Do these guys know what they're talking about?" ([09:02]—Francis Collins)

He highlights the deepening political polarization surrounding scientific issues, noting that vaccine hesitancy was particularly rampant among white evangelical Christians—a demographic he personally identifies with. This internal conflict was heartbreaking for Collins, as it represented a failure to bridge the gap between scientific advancement and community trust.

Challenges in Science Communication

Collins reflects candidly on the shortcomings in science communication during the pandemic. Initially adhering to the "knowledge deficit model," he believed that providing facts would correct misunderstandings. However, this approach proved ineffective, especially amidst a deluge of misinformation and disinformation:

"I was naive about science communication... we need a lot more listening." ([21:18]—Francis Collins)

He emphasizes the importance of embracing uncertainty and storytelling to engage the public more effectively. Rather than solely presenting statistics, Collins advocates for narratives that resonate on a personal level, fostering a deeper understanding and trust in scientific endeavors.

Bridging the Trust Gap: Efforts and Reflections

In an attempt to mend the fractured trust between science and the public, Collins participated in initiatives with organizations like Braver Angels, which facilitate dialogues between opposing viewpoints. His interactions with individuals like Wilk Wilkinson, a critic of COVID lockdowns, provided valuable lessons in empathy and understanding:

"We failed to say... This is the best we can do right now. There's a good chance this is wrong." ([28:01]—Francis Collins)

These conversations underscored the necessity of acknowledging mistakes and uncertainties, fostering a more inclusive and honest discourse. Collins recognizes that admitting ignorance and maintaining humility are crucial steps toward rebuilding credibility and trust.

The Future of Science and Hope for Upcoming Generations

Despite the adversities faced, Collins remains optimistic about the future of biomedical research. He urges young scientists to persevere, highlighting the unprecedented advancements and the strong public support for medical research:

"I don't believe those facts can be suppressed for very long." ([35:07]—Francis Collins)

However, he expresses concern over a potential brain drain, as many international trainees contemplate leaving the U.S. due to the current climate of instability and uncertainty. Collins calls for sustained support and protection of research institutions to ensure that America's legacy in scientific innovation remains unblemished.

Conclusion

This episode of Unexplainable offers a compelling narrative of Francis Collins' departure from the NIH, contextualizing it within the broader challenges of sustaining scientific integrity amidst political turmoil and declining public trust. Collins' reflections serve as both a cautionary tale and a beacon of hope, emphasizing the critical need for improved science communication, institutional support, and community engagement to navigate the complexities of modern scientific endeavors.

Notable Quotes with Timestamps

• Francis Collins ([03:12]): "Almost immediately after Inauguration Day... Everybody gets up and we all start talking to each other... It can't be right."

• Francis Collins ([04:26]): "No scientists... were permitted to speak to in any kind of setting... effectively muzzled."

• Francis Collins ([09:02]): "Covid did a lot of harm to people's trust in science... Do these guys know what they're talking about?"

• Francis Collins ([21:18]): "I was naive about science communication... we need a lot more listening."

• Francis Collins ([28:01]): "We failed to say... This is the best we can do right now. There's a good chance this is wrong."

• Francis Collins ([35:07]): "I don't believe those facts can be suppressed for very long."

Speaker Attribution

• Noam Hassenfeld – Host and interviewer
• Francis Collins – Guest, former NIH Director and prominent scientist

This structured summary captures the essence of the episode, highlighting key discussions, insights, and emotional undertones conveyed by both the host and Francis Collins. It provides a comprehensive overview for listeners who may not have tuned in, ensuring they grasp the critical issues surrounding the deteriorating relationship between science and political forces in the United States.